Was the anime community smarter in the past?

I recently developed an interest in watching a play that hasn't been performed for over a century. Reading the script and score just isn't the same.

@Lucifrost Yeah that would be a rare case, where it's applicable, I just don't think that is applicable to anime. It would be relevant to music performances as well, especially stuff where there is no recording.


@thewiru I just don't get why you care that much? I mean for me, I feel like I get to have better conversations about anime, than I ever did at the the height of anitube, because I found friends that have similar interests to me, which I didn't have before. Maybe that is what you need to seek out. The content itself wasn't' that great, and I wouldn't say most content creators were that knowledgeable. That said, yeah it's kinda dead, I really don't care about Japanese lifestyle stuff, which it seems like a lot of the big guys have gone towards.

I mean I still think there is stuff out there, if you just want informative content like the Sakuga Blog. Those guys are much more informative, than anyone I saw in the early 2010s, where people were just hating on SAO, or giving me their One Piece opinions. Which on a side note, manga tube feels like it's doing well since all the booktube people got into it.

@Nurguburu
Good intentions are debatable, and the fact some people just immediately discredit why people feel uncomfortable with some of these topics, comes off as overly defensive, rather than protecting "artistic freedom".

There are some things I am okay with, some stuff I am not, and that is because there is content within that sphere, whose morality is up for debate. Whether you think it's impactful, is not something I want to honestly ever discuss on the internet again; however, regardless what some think, people aren't wrong for getting uncomfortable, worrying about the social impact, or wondering about the morality of said works. I am tired of people jumping down the throats of those that just express concern. It's not like every person who does is asking for the mangaka to be lynched as a sex pest. And yeah, I will apply that to the other side, for those that want to lynch people for simply watching Kill La Kill or hey... classic Dragon Ball.

And again, I have divided feelings on content like this. Like I occasionally enjoy, "corruption"/non consent content in hentai (one of the few genres that gets lots of stuff adapted); however, if played for real in a story, I find it deeply bothersome, didn't like it in Game of Thrones, horror films I have seen or live action material especially, because it feels too real, I know Berserk is going to be bother me once I get around to reading it.

I understand why people would be offended by such content as well. It's not entirely logical however, the act is messed up, so there yeah is room for discussion on how problematic media should be handled, without people coming down on "you support censorship you prude", anytime someone talks about said content in a negative way.

Frankly TBH, some in the the community just feels like it gets a kick out of being offensive, and that is insufferable. I am tired of people trolling posting borderline hentai, with problematic stuff to newcomers and acting like you need to accept/like this, to be a fan.

I really don't care what idiots on places like Twitter/X, reddit or any other social media say. They are irrelevant to the actual work. They can shriek all they want. It's not like you can revoke their ability to interact with the community, watch anime or participate in any way. Block and move on.

If people want to race bend characters, that isn't my cup of tea, whatever. If they want to say horrendous stuff, while I think it's relevant if it's directed towards places where the creators can say, again that is why you need moderation (and again this wasn't uncommon back in the day, the main point of my post).

I know it's kinda hypocritical considering what I am doing right now, getting into an irrelevant minor argument; however, you would enjoy the internet more if you don't give such people the time of day. I try to do that less with actual toxic people.

@thewiru The further time progresses, the more choice you have. It's that simple. If you like older media, well if you go into the future, you will have the choice of old and new media. Unless something is physically lost, living in the past, simply for media, is worthless. Like if you enjoy retro anime, the best time to watch it is now, not decades in the past because we had less access to a lot of retro anime.

The community side of things is very overrated. Sure anime look more bright at the time; however, that was just mainly because I was easily impressed and less informed. It would be true today too.

If you want to just talk to people about retro shows, there are subreddits, communities on here etc, that will talk to you lol. That is pretty much the extent of the community aspect of the past, at least online (IRL maybe the community aspect was different, IDK wasn't old enough to go to cons at that time).

All those comments were literally all over the internet in the late 2000s, which was the point of my response. This isn't a new thing. And regardless, yeah Japan's justice system has issues, in regards to sexual abuse in particular (and yeah I am aware of other countries). I am also just frankly tired of people, equally equating anyone who doesn't love every aspect of otaku culture as being some prude, racist, or whatever other nonsense, I hear from the keep anime for the "otaku" crowd. And I say that as someone, who occasionally can be sympathetic to some aspects of otaku culture.

Why do you care? That internet drama stuff is irrelevant.

This is also intertwined with a certain amount of wilful anti-intellectualism, like very base reactions to female characters are prioritised at all costs to the extent it feels kind of performative, flexing the fact that you're being horny instead of just being horny, or expressing something interesting with it. Further to that, earnestly trying to come up with a particular interpretation of the meaning of a piece of work seems to be something a lot of people actively disdain. I don't know what motivates, I love art that makes me think and there's plenty of anime that's weird and hostile and provocative and demands to be ruminated on, and at the same time there's so much that's gentle and joyous that is worth thinking about in depth.

@Lucifrost Yeah that would be a rare case, where it's applicable, I just don't think that is applicable to anime. It would be relevant to music performances as well, especially stuff where there is no recording.


@thewiru I just don't get why you care that much? I mean for me, I feel like I get to have better conversations about anime, than I ever did at the the height of anitube, because I found friends that have similar interests to me, which I didn't have before. Maybe that is what you need to seek out. The content itself wasn't' that great, and I wouldn't say most content creators were that knowledgeable. That said, yeah it's kinda dead, I really don't care about Japanese lifestyle stuff, which it seems like a lot of the big guys have gone towards.

I mean I still think there is stuff out there, if you just want informative content like the Sakuga Blog. Those guys are much more informative, than anyone I saw in the early 2010s, where people were just hating on SAO, or giving me their One Piece opinions. Which on a side note, manga tube feels like it's doing well since all the booktube people got into it.

@Nurguburu
Good intentions are debatable, and the fact some people just immediately discredit why people feel uncomfortable with some of these topics, comes off as overly defensive, rather than protecting "artistic freedom".

There are some things I am okay with, some stuff I am not, and that is because there is content within that sphere, whose morality is up for debate. Whether you think it's impactful, is not something I want to honestly ever discuss on the internet again; however, regardless what some think, people aren't wrong for getting uncomfortable, worrying about the social impact, or wondering about the morality of said works. I am tired of people jumping down the throats of those that just express concern. It's not like every person who does is asking for the mangaka to be lynched as a sex pest. And yeah, I will apply that to the other side, for those that want to lynch people for simply watching Kill La Kill or hey... classic Dragon Ball.

And again, I have divided feelings on content like this. Like I occasionally enjoy, "corruption"/non consent content in hentai (one of the few genres that gets lots of stuff adapted); however, if played for real in a story, I find it deeply bothersome, didn't like it in Game of Thrones, horror films I have seen or live action material especially, because it feels too real, I know Berserk is going to be bother me once I get around to reading it.

I understand why people would be offended by such content as well. It's not entirely logical however, the act is messed up, so there yeah is room for discussion on how problematic media should be handled, without people coming down on "you support censorship you prude", anytime someone talks about said content in a negative way.

Frankly TBH, some in the the community just feels like it gets a kick out of being offensive, and that is insufferable. I am tired of people trolling posting borderline hentai, with problematic stuff to newcomers and acting like you need to accept/like this, to be a fan.

I really don't care what idiots on places like Twitter/X, reddit or any other social media say. They are irrelevant to the actual work. They can shriek all they want. It's not like you can revoke their ability to interact with the community, watch anime or participate in any way. Block and move on.

If people want to race bend characters, that isn't my cup of tea, whatever. If they want to say horrendous stuff, while I think it's relevant if it's directed towards places where the creators can say, again that is why you need moderation (and again this wasn't uncommon back in the day, the main point of my post).

I know it's kinda hypocritical considering what I am doing right now, getting into an irrelevant minor argument; however, you would enjoy the internet more if you don't give such people the time of day. I try to do that less with actual toxic people.

This is, legitimately, the stupidest, most petty thing I've read on this forum thus far, and the bar is already pretty low. Like, you really don't understand what's wrong with comparing petty anime fandom bullshit with a literal genocide?

Even if I take your "anime intellectuals" claim at face value, a lot of the issue is that anime fans, including on this very forum, only want sycophants and are hostile towards anyone who actually attempts to meaningfully critique trends in anime (e.g. the hostile reaction to Miyazaki for his derogatory otaku comments). The fact that your posts about so-called intellectualism are really just listing anime fandom trends and supplementary material in themselves demonstrate a sycophantic, non-critical attachment to the fandom.

Like, actual academic circles are discussing issues such as magical girls being a means of enforcing feminine values on young girls, and that Madoka doesn't actually critique this trend, but also encourages this kind of passivity. At best, this kind of discussion on your typical forum would be dismissed as a "hot take," and more typically, be met with angry outcries of "It's not sexist. It's not true. It's bullshit! It's not sexist! It is not!"

This is, legitimately, the stupidest, most petty thing I've read on this forum thus far, and the bar is already pretty low. Like, you really don't understand what's wrong with comparing petty anime fandom bullshit with a literal genocide?

Even if I take your "anime intellectuals" claim at face value, a lot of the issue is that anime fans, including on this very forum, only want sycophants and are hostile towards anyone who actually attempts to meaningfully critique trends in anime (e.g. the hostile reaction to Miyazaki for his derogatory otaku comments). The fact that your posts about so-called intellectualism are really just listing anime fandom trends and supplementary material in themselves demonstrate a sycophantic, non-critical attachment to the fandom.

Like, actual academic circles are discussing issues such as magical girls being a means of enforcing feminine values on young girls, and that Madoka doesn't actually critique this trend, but also encourages this kind of passivity. At best, this kind of discussion on your typical forum would be dismissed as a "hot take," and more typically, be met with angry outcries of "It's not sexist. It's not true. It's bullshit! It's not sexist! It is not!"

I don't, actually.
I was raised with no IRL friends on an internet poisoned by ironyposting whose objective was one person saying something more expletive than the other, what makes you feel that I would understand that?

...that is, if I had even made that comparison to begin with: My comparison was on how highly those two countries saw the figure of the "intellectual" to go to such lenghts, compare to how low those two communities do so.
Like, come on, will you also complain about mothers that talk about famine in Africa to their children that are wasting food?


Really? The best example you could think of are the Miyazaki comments? The guy who's complaining about the industry and everything related to it since then 70's?
Some of his criticisms weren't wrong (e.g. the industry attracting people who are socially alienated, and such alienation reflecting in their works, which eventually become cannibalistic of one another), but he said it in the most spiteful form ever.


Except that this wasn't a post about intellectualism, but about the community being (In average) more knowledgeable in the past.
Also, you're literally quoting a tweet of mine being critical to the fandom, how could this possibly be "a sycophantic, non-critical attachment to the fandom".


I fail to understand your point, the community is bad because... they would disagree with that argument? (BTW, nice "The Room" reference).

Oh, yeah, it was. We had much less of those "Media Literate" tourists.

In the context of media, it involves watching things critically, being able to identify its core messages, arguing for or against its merits, thinking about what it means in the context of the wider society that created and influenced it. Basically, asking questions like these. Simply being a walking encyclopedia about everything related to a certain anime franchise doesn't in itself require one to ask these questions.

In fact, much of MAL has such disdain for people outside their narrow interests that they're flat out anti-intellectual. They shut down arguments by insulting people instead of actually coming up with reasoned arguments to back up their claim.

@Sasori56483
I mean, there's a difference between getting your hands on a manga raw and getting your hands in an audio drama.

As it was in the old days, and as it remains today... you just go on CDJapan and buy it. Most of these were easy to access if you wanted it, you just needed to front some decent change for shipping.

@TK_Tay
Then why does it happen WAY LESS OFTEN nowadays?

@thewiru
It's just more convenient to buy your basic needs in English now, or just pirate outright, so people gloss over things like audio dramas.

There's the additional factor of less people working on a given series. Take for instance Hunter x Hunter. Back when I first got into anime, Hunter x Hunter's original anime had fan communities translating works from Japanese as an official release didn't really exist for the anime (until 2008 if I recall), and so when doing this they would get packed in advertisements for things like the drama CDs or the musicals, and get those as well since they're already working on this one series they, presumably, like.

For a more currently existing example of that, Kanzenshuu (formerly Daizenshuu EX / Kanzentai) is a Dragon Ball centric fan community that has been in operation for almost three decades, and of course it is still going over things like this when they come out because they're still engaged in that aspect of fan culture- it's all the same guys doing the same stuff they did decades prior.

But for newer things, that's far less prevalent because most new fan communities aren't necessarily buying the DVDs anymore, or buying TV guides, or keeping track of all new merch sales because it's no longer as relevant or forced on them as it was before. You're mistaking intelligence for something just being more present in their purview as fans.

A tl;dr since this got sidetracked- awareness of these side materials was because of how the deeper parts of the fan communities would engage with the work. Before you needed to order directly from Japan and would invariably see advertisements for these external pieces of media. Today that is no longer a constant due to how things have change. It does not belay intelligence to be aware of audio dramas.

In that case, know that I've been a fan of people that make this type of content for the last two years and I'm actively trying to be like them.
Those were the people that made me admit "Huh, I guess all art really is political after all".

It's not about simply KNOWING information, it's about those being people that built everything from nothing.
That went REALLY out of their way, OUT OF LOVE, to get hard-to-find information so they could share with others, teach others. Their love for the thing eventually made them want to learn about the industry, it's creators, it's circumstances, etc.
A guy I follow on Twitter just pointed out how dumbfounded he was upon finding an English video review of "Kana Imouto" from >>>EIGHTEEN YEARS AGO<<<.
Besides, shouldn't the first step to talking about a subject be... knowing about a subject?
That's why I don't see it as two things "competing" with one another, I don't think I would be able to someone's essay about the politics of mecha anime if that person had only watched three of them.

It's not like we sacrificed "encyclopedia people" to have "critical people" nowadays.
My point is that in the past we at least had one of them, now we have NEITHER of them.

I don't doubt your claim, but could you give me some examples of that?

What are some big names there?
............

@TK_Tay
I mean, the way you've described it just made me feel that things were better back then.

Agreed. The obnoxious moral purity testing, the oneupmanship, it's all self-serving rather than sincerely trying to get people to think about what they're watching. And it gets people too distracted by fighting each other to clearly consider how much merit and validity the original critique has.

@thewiru I will be honest, I don't know a lot. I don't read enough manga frankly. If you want the history behind some artists, one channel I do watch matttt - comic & manga history goes over the history of comics and manga. I find his comic stuff more insightful, since I don't know much about that side of the industry. I just find a lot of fantasy booktubers are starting to switch over to manga, and again covering more mainstream titles, so I don't know if you would be interested. Still when I do search up a few obscure manga, that I throw on my PTR list, that I probably should get around to, I find someone talking about it.
@09philjYeah you summarized my feelings more eloquently, than I could have stated. Pretty much that is my issue.
@thewiru
I mean I haven't seen the show does it lol? Honestly I don't hate video essays I just don't have time for them. The free time that I actually do have, I used maybe for doing a quick post on social media like now, watching a little bit of anime, or doing another hobby like biking or drawing. I would rather watch a show, than watch a 1 hour analysis of someone discussing a show. I was more open to them, when I was a teen who had more free time, and also less stuff to distract me.
You can't complain, if you literally engage in the same behavior as people you don't like. I have had way more encounters from hostile fans denigrating any Western influence/Western fans while arguing we are all prudes, while shoving sexualized material into people's faces when there was no warrant for it, more than the people that want to execute people for watching an ecchi anime, that featured HS girls. Though again depends on where you go, in dedicated anime communities this is more the case, on twitter on reddit you get a more even balance. Though I just find it to be equally toxic at this point. I don't really like either kind of fan frankly.
Well banning the porn Kenshin's creator loved amassing definitely did make the world a better place. It's kinda sickening that used to be legal.
Sure just like I don't know if some of the "fiction isn't reality" fans, aren't unironic pedophiles either. I mean I have seen some pretty sus comments in this community, where you have to take a step back. It goes both ways.

I mean traumatized how lol? Honestly unlike JRPGs, anime has never really got fucked over by censorship, beyond English dubs/localization. Any censorship that happens within the industry, is largely because of Japan's stupid laws (which I rarely see the otaku crowd go after as much) or pure heartless business practices (only BD buyers get the uncensored release). You always had ways to get it unfiltered (or as unfiltered as possible).
I didn't say there is nothing to fear, I am saying you are only looking at this from one perspective, a perspective that only matters to you. I have stated before, that trying to preserve the anime of today is pointless because things are going to change whether you like it or not. Anime is objectively going to be different a decade or two decades from now. The 2000s were different from now, and the pre digital age was very different. Maybe anime does get more censored however, going after someone who is worried about how an artist depicts something, or the intent behind it is not going to change anything. Frankly, you as an individual fan don't have that much power to change that.

Secondly, I don't think there is a point to get hyper militant about an issue that has yet to rear it's head. In regards to the anime industry, a medium that has allowed plenty of weird/shocking works to get adapted of late. Just because it may change in the future doesn't mean there is a reason to get mad now.

Still I don't think the industry will ever have an issue with media preservation (because that would lead to a lot of profitable shows not longer being available which is the real kicker) and even if (which hey I won't deny that recent Macross case with Disney) it's not going to be hard to get hold of the originals. Plus again, the otaku community obfuscates that the vast majority of people aren't "sexualization is exploitation" rad fems/progressives. Like again, if we take out the school uniforms and hentai, anime isn't actually that sexualized or uncensored lol compared to other media out there lol. If anything if anime actually went by Western norms, in like HBO/Showtime shows, we would see more sex, in non dedicated sexualized shows than we do.

Though things are changing, there is the argument the next generation wants the media to tone down on that stuff, because they are. so overexposed to it. Which hey, as an occasional perv, I kinda get that to some extent. The world kinda shoves a lot of sexualized content into your face already, the point it's tiring.

@MelodyOfMemoryI mean I just don't like Miyazaki's media criticisms (or just him as a person beyond his media works). His observations outside of the medium are very shallow and frankly hypocritical. People just make classic appeal to authority arguments, while ignoring creatives say stupid shit all the time. I mean you can see this in other industries too. Yeah he has experience in the industry, he isn't however, a god tier writer/literary analysis either. His opinions are also heavily biased towards stuff he likes, which I bet even he would admit.

I do at least, understand where he is coming from, in some areas. Still he and to some degree most fans who quote him about the industry, love to just paint all the creatives behind the industry as morons who don't understand human interaction, and only love escapism. For most notable shows, regardless of era, that wasn't the case. It's even more idiotic, because Miyazaki probably also hates whatever works, the fans who cite that dumb quote also like. A lot of people don't realize that yeah otaku also have supported all the shows the West love to put in the "non otaku" bin.
I will flip back in defense of this, the problem with the critical lens is that often people don't make an actual distinction between the work, and the fanbase. If a work is sexist aren't you sexist for enjoying it? Don't you need to feel shame? You see that mentality often online, and frankly IRL. If people were more just like, yeah we are just making observations about art, rather than using it as a form of shame, I would 100% agree however, there is a reason the hostility exists, even if I wish it wouldn't because yeah some people are just making critical observations about our society. They aren't starting witch hunts.

@MelodyOfMemory Yeah I mean, I think if you somehow found the posts I made way earlier, when I first started this account, I was much more hostile to the idea of critical media analysis. Still I don't think, even then, I had issue with people looking at why we depict life in certain ways, and the problematic underbelly of it. I just didn't want to be depicted as a bad person, for engaging in an hour of escapism. I just have seen different voices, who are more balanced on this, you can still enjoy media you are critical of, you aren't bad for enjoying it. So now, I am at least more open to people doing that, if it's for good intentions.

Not even smarter at all. They are probably even more delusional than before. This is why I don't typically read the threads on here.

@thewiru Did I say specifically you? I have seen others. At the end of the day, again it's just people yelling online over media. For the most part, it usually isn't serious.
I mean yeah.... cause how anime treats sexuality is different. Like Western media is way more grotesque in our mass media than anything in Japan. Frankly Japan likes to fetishize purity (which there is clash #1). The big aspects again just have to relate to the age of the characters of a lot of our anime. Western shows like Euphoria or books like A Song of Ice and Fire have been criticized for similar things too, so it's not like people only focus on anime. Finally again going off purity, there is this meshing of sexualization and cuteness in anime, that I think does strike to Western audiences as odd, and potentially fetishizing very youthful identities whether true or not (I would say not). Still I get why there is a disconnect, because sexuality in a Western context needs to be a mature seductress not a high pitched anime girl. Again going off frankly off my limited time with SK and Japanese pop culture this is just more a culture clash, if anything, and you are seeing more of this idea bleed into our culture.

Still I am just tired of people saying the West is prudish, in this community, when we are in fact more sexually libertine than Japan. Japan is a nation that doesn't allow their pop idols to have boyfriends lol. It's a nation that loves purity, for its sexual ideals. You compare that to a Western pop star like Miley (sorry I don't listen to enough popular music to know what is in now first one that came to mind) and you see the difference. I mean just look at what game companies like CD Project includes in their games compared to your average JRPG.
I am talking about all our mass media, not just anime. The music industry is very sexualized, true of live action shows. Just compare the heat Mass Effect 1 got in 2006 for its scenes compared to what Cyberpunk 2077 shows off. Women are basically reading AO3 smut, except they are buying it in legit bookstores. It is more present than when I was a kid. Yeah anime is starting to lose ecchi, however, if I had to compare how fanservice is used in something like Chainsaw Man vs Naruto which one is more forward about it?

Still sure anime could lose the ecchi market; however, that is just basic competition. There are better options to try to capitalize on.
I mean I was talking about fans uttering threats. Again most anime fans don't really care about this beyond yeah that's weird or I don't like x, or I find x problematic and immoral. They aren't sending death threats to some creator who drew NSFW art of a canonically underage character. That is a minority, like this case.

Saying that x media reflects a moral problem in our society, is not the same as x person wrote x, therefore they should be hanged. Like I told Melody, I felt that way because sure lots of people engage in it that way; however, lots of people don't either. Plus, I do think it's healthy to think about the media we like, and why we like it. If you actually want a "free", "moral" and "just" society that is against censorship and harm, then you need critical thinkers. If you engage with his in a healthy way you can breed that.
Illusion of what? You are going to say that about anyone that engages with that type of media criticism? That they only seek to destroy art? Again the fact I have encountered people, that don't feel that way goes against your narrative. I didn't say who is in the majority only that I think ideally, people should engage with media critically just not aggressively. I didn't say what was the majority. I am just tired of people downplaying some innate realities behind our world, simply because it's easier to live in a simple one. Like dude, there are works I like that yeah, are a bit sexist, I can admit that and still be a fan of them. Just because I am doesn't make me sexist, the factI can understand it is doesn't mean I want to see the work banned. I mean hey my favourite Christmas film is from the 1940s, and it has black face in it. Are you going to tell me to not engage in a critical analysis and say hey this film was impacted by American racist norms of the time? I still love Holiday Inn. If you want to blind yourself to how social issues impact our media, how they can reflect many of the problematic aspects of our world, I mean you are free too; however, that is just denying reality.
Sure doesn't mean we should live in a police state, just because someone may say fire in a theatre, if we are going to make analogies.
Literally how? It's just basic literary analysis that they teach you in school, because most books they make you read have very heavy political/social subtexts.
Because that is dumb? Like yes the emotional masses exist, and they want to kill the witch. Everyone likes a good scapegoat. The fact people like this exist again doesn't invalidate critical analysis
How? How is recognizing that social, political factors that make up a work will contribute to it? How is acknowledging bias in the author's writing style, leads to certain characterization? I don't feel guilty for enjoying Tomino's casual sexism in Gundam, frankly I find it hilarious. It still is sexist though. The fact you can identify that is all "critical analysis" really is at the end of the day.
I haven't gotten around to getting further into Frieren, so I can't comment too much on this however, I have heard about it online. One, just because people can read a story that way doesn't mean they are right for one. People have done similar analysis about Tolkien however, you can also read the Orcs as just being a symbol for corruption and industrialization killing nature. Even for hyper progressive people, they can understand the concept of evil, and various representations of it. So using that representation of evil as innately toxic thing, in our lives, doesn't mean it must equate to racism. Characterizing women as fickle inherently though is kinda sexist, and when a show implies that well then there isn't much nuance there. Like you seem to think that if you think critically about a work, you must buy into some extreme progressive angle regarding it. When that is hardly the case. Instead ideally, you are just thinking about how a work is impacted by the creator's society, and what we can read both positively and negatively from such a society. For some stuff, you have a lot of room for interpretation for others I mean it's clear cut. Like you can't read a film like Birth of a Nation as anything but racist lol.

@thewiru Did I say specifically you? I have seen others. At the end of the day, again it's just people yelling online over media. For the most part, it usually isn't serious.
I mean yeah.... cause how anime treats sexuality is different. Like Western media is way more grotesque in our mass media than anything in Japan. Frankly Japan likes to fetishize purity (which there is clash #1). The big aspects again just have to relate to the age of the characters of a lot of our anime. Western shows like Euphoria or books like A Song of Ice and Fire have been criticized for similar things too, so it's not like people only focus on anime. Finally again going off purity, there is this meshing of sexualization and cuteness in anime, that I think does strike to Western audiences as odd, and potentially fetishizing very youthful identities whether true or not (I would say not). Still I get why there is a disconnect, because sexuality in a Western context needs to be a mature seductress not a high pitched anime girl. Again going off frankly off my limited time with SK and Japanese pop culture this is just more a culture clash, if anything, and you are seeing more of this idea bleed into our culture.

Still I am just tired of people saying the West is prudish, in this community, when we are in fact more sexually libertine than Japan. Japan is a nation that doesn't allow their pop idols to have boyfriends lol. It's a nation that loves purity, for its sexual ideals. You compare that to a Western pop star like Miley (sorry I don't listen to enough popular music to know what is in now first one that came to mind) and you see the difference. I mean just look at what game companies like CD Project includes in their games compared to your average JRPG.
I am talking about all our mass media, not just anime. The music industry is very sexualized, true of live action shows. Just compare the heat Mass Effect 1 got in 2006 for its scenes compared to what Cyberpunk 2077 shows off. Women are basically reading AO3 smut, except they are buying it in legit bookstores. It is more present than when I was a kid. Yeah anime is starting to lose ecchi, however, if I had to compare how fanservice is used in something like Chainsaw Man vs Naruto which one is more forward about it?

Still sure anime could lose the ecchi market; however, that is just basic competition. There are better options to try to capitalize on.
I mean I was talking about fans uttering threats. Again most anime fans don't really care about this beyond yeah that's weird or I don't like x, or I find x problematic and immoral. They aren't sending death threats to some creator who drew NSFW art of a canonically underage character. That is a minority, like this case.

Saying that x media reflects a moral problem in our society, is not the same as x person wrote x, therefore they should be hanged. Like I told Melody, I felt that way because sure lots of people engage in it that way; however, lots of people don't either. Plus, I do think it's healthy to think about the media we like, and why we like it. If you actually want a "free", "moral" and "just" society that is against censorship and harm, then you need critical thinkers. If you engage with his in a healthy way you can breed that.
Illusion of what? You are going to say that about anyone that engages with that type of media criticism? That they only seek to destroy art? Again the fact I have encountered people, that don't feel that way goes against your narrative. I didn't say who is in the majority only that I think ideally, people should engage with media critically just not aggressively. I didn't say what was the majority. I am just tired of people downplaying some innate realities behind our world, simply because it's easier to live in a simple one. Like dude, there are works I like that yeah, are a bit sexist, I can admit that and still be a fan of them. Just because I am doesn't make me sexist, the factI can understand it is doesn't mean I want to see the work banned. I mean hey my favourite Christmas film is from the 1940s, and it has black face in it. Are you going to tell me to not engage in a critical analysis and say hey this film was impacted by American racist norms of the time? I still love Holiday Inn. If you want to blind yourself to how social issues impact our media, how they can reflect many of the problematic aspects of our world, I mean you are free too; however, that is just denying reality.
Sure doesn't mean we should live in a police state, just because someone may say fire in a theatre, if we are going to make analogies.
Literally how? It's just basic literary analysis that they teach you in school, because most books they make you read have very heavy political/social subtexts.
Because that is dumb? Like yes the emotional masses exist, and they want to kill the witch. Everyone likes a good scapegoat. The fact people like this exist again doesn't invalidate critical analysis
How? How is recognizing that social, political factors that make up a work will contribute to it? How is acknowledging bias in the author's writing style, leads to certain characterization? I don't feel guilty for enjoying Tomino's casual sexism in Gundam, frankly I find it hilarious. It still is sexist though. The fact you can identify that is all "critical analysis" really is at the end of the day.
I haven't gotten around to getting further into Frieren, so I can't comment too much on this however, I have heard about it online. One, just because people can read a story that way doesn't mean they are right for one. People have done similar analysis about Tolkien however, you can also read the Orcs as just being a symbol for corruption and industrialization killing nature. Even for hyper progressive people, they can understand the concept of evil, and various representations of it. So using that representation of evil as innately toxic thing, in our lives, doesn't mean it must equate to racism. Characterizing women as fickle inherently though is kinda sexist, and when a show implies that well then there isn't much nuance there. Like you seem to think that if you think critically about a work, you must buy into some extreme progressive angle regarding it. When that is hardly the case. Instead ideally, you are just thinking about how a work is impacted by the creator's society, and what we can read both positively and negatively from such a society. For some stuff, you have a lot of room for interpretation for others I mean it's clear cut. Like you can't read a film like Birth of a Nation as anything but racist lol.

@thewiru Did I say specifically you? I have seen others. At the end of the day, again it's just people yelling online over media. For the most part, it usually isn't serious.
I mean yeah.... cause how anime treats sexuality is different. Like Western media is way more grotesque in our mass media than anything in Japan. Frankly Japan likes to fetishize purity (which there is clash #1). The big aspects again just have to relate to the age of the characters of a lot of our anime. Western shows like Euphoria or books like A Song of Ice and Fire have been criticized for similar things too, so it's not like people only focus on anime. Finally again going off purity, there is this meshing of sexualization and cuteness in anime, that I think does strike to Western audiences as odd, and potentially fetishizing very youthful identities whether true or not (I would say not). Still I get why there is a disconnect, because sexuality in a Western context needs to be a mature seductress not a high pitched anime girl. Again going off frankly off my limited time with SK and Japanese pop culture this is just more a culture clash, if anything, and you are seeing more of this idea bleed into our culture.

Still I am just tired of people saying the West is prudish, in this community, when we are in fact more sexually libertine than Japan. Japan is a nation that doesn't allow their pop idols to have boyfriends lol. It's a nation that loves purity, for its sexual ideals. You compare that to a Western pop star like Miley (sorry I don't listen to enough popular music to know what is in now first one that came to mind) and you see the difference. I mean just look at what game companies like CD Project includes in their games compared to your average JRPG.
I am talking about all our mass media, not just anime. The music industry is very sexualized, true of live action shows. Just compare the heat Mass Effect 1 got in 2006 for its scenes compared to what Cyberpunk 2077 shows off. Women are basically reading AO3 smut, except they are buying it in legit bookstores. It is more present than when I was a kid. Yeah anime is starting to lose ecchi, however, if I had to compare how fanservice is used in something like Chainsaw Man vs Naruto which one is more forward about it?

Still sure anime could lose the ecchi market; however, that is just basic competition. There are better options to try to capitalize on.
I mean I was talking about fans uttering threats. Again most anime fans don't really care about this beyond yeah that's weird or I don't like x, or I find x problematic and immoral. They aren't sending death threats to some creator who drew NSFW art of a canonically underage character. That is a minority, like this case.

Saying that x media reflects a moral problem in our society, is not the same as x person wrote x, therefore they should be hanged. Like I told Melody, I felt that way because sure lots of people engage in it that way; however, lots of people don't either. Plus, I do think it's healthy to think about the media we like, and why we like it. If you actually want a "free", "moral" and "just" society that is against censorship and harm, then you need critical thinkers. If you engage with his in a healthy way you can breed that.
Illusion of what? You are going to say that about anyone that engages with that type of media criticism? That they only seek to destroy art? Again the fact I have encountered people, that don't feel that way goes against your narrative. I didn't say who is in the majority only that I think ideally, people should engage with media critically just not aggressively. I didn't say what was the majority. I am just tired of people downplaying some innate realities behind our world, simply because it's easier to live in a simple one. Like dude, there are works I like that yeah, are a bit sexist, I can admit that and still be a fan of them. Just because I am doesn't make me sexist, the factI can understand it is doesn't mean I want to see the work banned. I mean hey my favourite Christmas film is from the 1940s, and it has black face in it. Are you going to tell me to not engage in a critical analysis and say hey this film was impacted by American racist norms of the time? I still love Holiday Inn. If you want to blind yourself to how social issues impact our media, how they can reflect many of the problematic aspects of our world, I mean you are free too; however, that is just denying reality.
Sure doesn't mean we should live in a police state, just because someone may say fire in a theatre, if we are going to make analogies.
Literally how? It's just basic literary analysis that they teach you in school, because most books they make you read have very heavy political/social subtexts.
Because that is dumb? Like yes the emotional masses exist, and they want to kill the witch. Everyone likes a good scapegoat. The fact people like this exist again doesn't invalidate critical analysis
How? How is recognizing that social, political factors that make up a work will contribute to it? How is acknowledging bias in the author's writing style, leads to certain characterization? I don't feel guilty for enjoying Tomino's casual sexism in Gundam, frankly I find it hilarious. It still is sexist though. The fact you can identify that is all "critical analysis" really is at the end of the day.
I haven't gotten around to getting further into Frieren, so I can't comment too much on this however, I have heard about it online. One, just because people can read a story that way doesn't mean they are right for one. People have done similar analysis about Tolkien however, you can also read the Orcs as just being a symbol for corruption and industrialization killing nature. Even for hyper progressive people, they can understand the concept of evil, and various representations of it. So using that representation of evil as innately toxic thing, in our lives, doesn't mean it must equate to racism. Characterizing women as fickle inherently though is kinda sexist, and when a show implies that well then there isn't much nuance there. Like you seem to think that if you think critically about a work, you must buy into some extreme progressive angle regarding it. When that is hardly the case. Instead ideally, you are just thinking about how a work is impacted by the creator's society, and what we can read both positively and negatively from such a society. For some stuff, you have a lot of room for interpretation for others I mean it's clear cut. Like you can't read a film like Birth of a Nation as anything but racist lol.

It seems so. I swear, some kids back in those days were smarter than some adult anime fans now.
Being thoughtful and knowledgeable is not in trend nowadays. Being noisy is.

@Nemo_Niemand That's true. It's kinda upsetting, and I really mean it, when you encounter adult anime fans and realize that they behave exactly like younger anime fans, or even worse in terms of obnoxiousness and lack of rational approach to the conversation.

@Nemo_Niemand That's true. It's kinda upsetting, and I really mean it, when you encounter adult anime fans and realize that they behave exactly like younger anime fans, or even worse in terms of obnoxiousness and lack of rational approach to the conversation.

@thewiru

I was saying that in a form of a maxim. I wasn't pointing to any particular case. Sorry for the miscommunication.

Religious conservatism was much stronger back in the day. Frankly what is going on in the USA, is more like the right trying to throw out their last attempt to seize control of society. The younger generation just doesn't care as much.


I mean for some of the stuff you listed, I can think of many reasons why it could be immoral(where are some of these artists getting their references)? How true that is IDK. Like I don't really want to get too much into that conversation, as I have already derailed the thread enough however, to say there could be no reason someone could be concerned is a bit out there.

Haven't seen Jobless, so can't comment however, you could legitimately argue some of the escapist isekai may not support slavery however, lean into fetishizing it. Do I think that is some horrific moral evil? No. That said I mean, you absolutely could look at some of these works with a more critical eye. What does that say about male desire? You can equally do it with female targeted romances, as they also are loaded with pretty fucked up dynamics, if you take it somewhat seriously. I mean people do that type of analysis all the time. You could absolutely take all that and say hey is this just a way of venting or is it unhealthy and I could see arguments for both sides.

I mean again I like Gundam; however, some of the characters comments are not morally agreeable to me. And at times you wonder if Tomino is being serious or it's just another messed up character in the Gundam universe parroting some nonsense in Japanese society.

Like I do enjoy Made in Abyss, some of the more uncomfortable aspects in that show can go a bit too far for me. I personally do it. Not often, however, I still do all the same.


@Sasori56483
Won't deny that, at least in terms of people actually taking action. Still the media narrative you hear online, at least for the last few years, maybe that is changing, is that wokism is going to take away all my beloved anime. I mean are there left wing people that very censor happy to go after stuff that goes against their world view, sure however, you have tons who are pretty hands off. I mean that was the concern with localizations, as most probably are pretty left leaning, and with a few bad cases people felt that was the problem.

Religious right or not, the West is absolutely the most sexually libertine place on Earth. America is just less libertine compared to other Western countries.
They still are more so than Japan.
I mean I won't deny I am not as educated on J-Pop idols or seiyuu culture. Frankly a good amount of my understanding comes from anime and news articles which probably do promote the worst aspects of it. Still there is a difference between dressing sexy, maybe staring in a gravure magazine from what Milley did. They are still marketed as innocent and untouched. That isn't the kind of marketing you are going to see as often in the West. Frankly, if we want to get into the morally dubious aspects of our pop culture, we try to make younger stars appear older.

Most of them? Anime/manga
Some of them? Books that teach you how to draw anatomy and stuff
It's orders of magnitude more likely that non-pornographic photos would've been used rather than pornographic ones.

I didn't say people couldn't have their own reasons to be concerned, that's why I want to talk to them.
My point is that such reasons don't have a basis in reality.

A generic isekai? Yeah, you could, most just use the concept as a plot device to get a new female character, and then proceed to never address it or do anything with it. It's quite bad and lazy writing.
Not Mushoku Tensei, though.
The context is the following:

Old chatrooms were yeah, more devoted to little things. But for every hobby I'm in, I'm always shocked by the stupidity (and ignorance) in the old days. These people talked like they knew shit, and often didn't know shit. Every single time.

Most of their knowledge was specious hearsay, their intelligence wasn't real. Double check some of that stuff they're spewing with today's internet and I bet you'll know more than them in the blink of an eye. Society has gotten better in this way, really what you're talking about is the phenomenon of people guessing and then having no way to back that up, the dude who says he knows and we can't all Google to verify.

Google is your friend, there's a reason they have top market cap.

It was always dumb and funny at the same time but at least you don't have tourists harassing everyone, being racists towarda Japanese people and wainting to censor or cancel everything they found offensive.

Obviously tourists are not part of the community since they are not welcome here but some are a bit harder to keep out from the community.

@BilboBaggins365 I didn't compare otaku media to Japanese people, stop falsely saying things I never said. I'm probably the most pro-Japanese person in this site. I know many tourists were saying they should "nuke Japan again" due they made "problematic" Anime or tropes, using racist slurs against Japanese people or even saying Japan "is a safe heaven for pedophiles and rapists" due to "underage" fanservice.

The dude I'm talking about was supporting Dandadan's blackwashing fanart which its racism against Japanese people since Okarun is Japanese himself. He falsely accused the entire Dandadan fanbase of being the KKK since they complained about the racist fanart.

Well there is still delicate fan base but they prefer small forum community than social media they prefer to keep themselves than being exposed and take over by tribe toxic people.

Back in the Day since there is no social media like Twitter and Facebook only Forum website that focus on that media like Gamefaq for video games fan Animesuki for anime fan and so on.

I like 2000s era where people were really fans not a fake tourist we talk about hidden gems collecting anime and video game magazine, are crazy crossover characters idea there is no hate, unlike today where many trash and hate for no reason because of the trend that they need to despise a serious without watching or playing it.