| Since Frieren aired, I've increasingly seen more and more how, for some reason, lots of people, specifically Americans and other westerners, have decided to look at Frieren's plot and characters through a political lens (for whatever reason), and specially focus on the demon dilemma. As shown in the anime, demons have no empathy. All that they can do is mimic human emotions as a way to deceive people, whom they'll then murder. In other words, demons are portrayed as objectively evil and irredeemable. However, this seems to really piss off some people who have normalized western storytelling, where the bad guys are often times multi-layered and often end up being morally gray or redeem themselves in some way. Simply, a lot of people seem unable to accept the idea of a story where there's a clear distinction between good and evil, and so they translate this into politics (for God knows what reason), and equate such storytelling device to racism, because it promotes the idea of true evil being endemic to a particular group, even if the line between fantasy and reality, in this case, is drawn in very bright and visible colors. What are your thoughts on this? |
| Pretend there's something flashy and cool here. |
| where exactly have you seen this? My Relativistic List? r/moronswhocantunderstandwords? If it weren't for episodes 8 through 10, you know, in which it is clearly explained that demons are literally monsters that use words, similar to that monster that appeared to fern and frieren in the shape of himmel and heiter, then I'd kind of understand. But I don't remember the demons ever being humanized or given any moral ambiguity. Only humans falling for their words and suffering for it. So I guess only their terminal levels of moral relativism and progressivism is to blame for their retarded "maybe they're not actually evil" or "I see parallels with real world racism" takes. Nah, sometimes things are black and white like that. |
Reply to IhnalakoKaina
where exactly have you seen this? My Relativistic List? r/moronswhocantunderstandwords? If it weren't for episodes 8 through 10, you know, in which it is clearly explained that demons are literally monsters that use words, similar to that monster that appeared to fern and frieren in the shape of himmel and heiter, then I'd kind of understand.
But I don't remember the demons ever being humanized or given any moral ambiguity. Only humans falling for their words and suffering for it. So I guess only their terminal levels of moral relativism and progressivism is to blame for their retarded "maybe they're not actually evil" or "I see parallels with real world racism" takes. Nah, sometimes things are black and white like that.
But I don't remember the demons ever being humanized or given any moral ambiguity. Only humans falling for their words and suffering for it. So I guess only their terminal levels of moral relativism and progressivism is to blame for their retarded "maybe they're not actually evil" or "I see parallels with real world racism" takes. Nah, sometimes things are black and white like that.
| @IhnalakoKaina Social media has a special area for the "media literacy" crowd, and on various places (namely X and Reddit), I've seen this demon dilemma being discussed. What really pissed me off, though, was reading a tweet by one of the champions of room temperature IQ, "evan loves worf", who casually decided to claim that Frieren is "fascist" because "objective evil" has been used as a plot device throughout history to "target minorities", and he went as far as equating the demons in Frieren has a portrayal of Jews. It can't all be ragebait, some people must actually be mentally challenged. |
| Pretend there's something flashy and cool here. |
| Eh, this is what happens when a medium goes mainstream. There will be more discussions, but a lot of them will be baseless and nonsensical. |
| For select people all fiction must be an allegory for something in the real world. I can't help but pity them, since that seems like an absolutely miserable way to consume entertainment. |
| "Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." Matthew 6:34 |
Reply to SleepingBear
For select people all fiction must be an allegory for something in the real world. I can't help but pity them, since that seems like an absolutely miserable way to consume entertainment.
| @SleepingBear "All art is political" people must be miserable. |
| Pretend there's something flashy and cool here. |
| It's just another case of "all art is political" people being upset that this particularl piece of fiction does not aggre with their very narrow worldview no matter what kind of mental gymnastics they'll try to interpret. It's just shows that this graph is as real as it gets and it's pure gold.  |
PiromyslJan 20, 12:42 AM
 |
Reply to Ripperdoc
Nobef said:
as a german speaker i feel pretty weird about the caracters german names,for example the names are like:running,thinking,strong,etc.
as a german speaker i feel pretty weird about the caracters german names,for example the names are like:running,thinking,strong,etc.
So stupid and cringe to give the characters german words, which aren't even names (not even nouns many of them).
| @Ripperdoc Quite frankly, Japanese names are like "Old River Young Mountain". If they apply their naming logic to foreign languages, might as well name a Mexican kid "Carretera Antigua Cosmo Infinito". |
| Pretend there's something flashy and cool here. |
Reply to ktg
What is the political aspect? Because you haven't explained it, so far the way you described it, it's more like a moral question.
| @ktg The political aspect is within the moral question. It is rejecting the idea of true evil being a plot device in media because it translates to real-world political issues. Some people seem to believe that the portrayal of true evil (and by extension the morally-justified action of destroying it) allures to fascism or racism, because it's meant to send the message that if objective evilness exists in media, then it exists in real life, because "all art is political" and "all art is an expression of a person's beliefs". There is no moral dilemma here, the picture is clear: in Frieren's universe, demons are bad, and they must be killed. Some people decided to interpret this as "it's secretly talking about racial minorities" and all of a sudden Frieren is a fascist anime. |
| Pretend there's something flashy and cool here. |
Reply to ktg
@ImNotAnOtaku1 Wait, what?
Firstly, Frieren's demons are not true evil. It has nothing to do with it. They are like animals. Or would you call a cat true evil because it hunted a mouse? No. That's why - even Frieren - described them as beasts and not human-like beings.
Secondly, your argument makes no sense. because it would also mean that these people believe in magic in real life. You said that "if <thing> exists in media, then it exists in real life". This argument works only if it is true for every fictional element, like magic or demons. These people also believe in those or question their existence? If not, then your statement is not true about them.
So, technically, there's a moral dilemma, because this is somewhat similar to irl hunting. Yes, lions are capable of killing humans, but you are not really forced to hunt them.
Also, "some people" includes famous authors as well like Miyazaki. Miyazaki interpreted Lord of the Rings as Orcs are Japanese people.
Firstly, Frieren's demons are not true evil. It has nothing to do with it. They are like animals. Or would you call a cat true evil because it hunted a mouse? No. That's why - even Frieren - described them as beasts and not human-like beings.
Secondly, your argument makes no sense. because it would also mean that these people believe in magic in real life. You said that "if <thing> exists in media, then it exists in real life". This argument works only if it is true for every fictional element, like magic or demons. These people also believe in those or question their existence? If not, then your statement is not true about them.
So, technically, there's a moral dilemma, because this is somewhat similar to irl hunting. Yes, lions are capable of killing humans, but you are not really forced to hunt them.
Also, "some people" includes famous authors as well like Miyazaki. Miyazaki interpreted Lord of the Rings as Orcs are Japanese people.
| @ktg You completely misunderstood every single sentence I wrote. First of all, we're talking about moral concepts here, not any given thing. The people I'm referring to look through every single metasocial topic in media and analyze them through a political lens, which means that the whole dilemma with the demons being evil is seen as something political by them. In their view, the demons surely are based on some real-life group, because everything in media is, to them, a representation of the real world. They therefore assume that if the demons are evil and must be killed, then the author is claiming that in the real world there's some group that's also all evil and must be exterminated. It's the same shit they've been doing with Tolkien's works, because his works include absolute morals very often. Secondly, you're literally comparing apples to rocks here. Lions are capable of killing humans, absolutely, but lions don't go out of their territory looking for humans to kill, nor do they kill humans out of an intelligent, self-aware desire to do so. In Frieren's universe, demons are intelligent beings, they are aware of their desires to exterminate all other races, and they act with purpose, not out of primal instinct, as it is clearly shown in the anime. They're not a cat hunting a mouse, they're literally human-like beings with human-like intelligence who willingly look for and murder others. Name ONE animal which hunts down humans on purpose and then your argument might be valid. |
| Pretend there's something flashy and cool here. |
Reply to DragyG
You tell stories based on how you have been educated to storytelling and your views of the world.
Few are those who would start writing a book without having read any.
Based on this you always put your ideas, views and stereotypes in all stories you tell. (If you don't believe me take a friend with you and go for a walk in a city. Before you leave each other to go home try telling each other what you have seen. You'll see it's most likely your friend won't say the same thing than you. I did it for university no students who tried could have the same story at the end than any other student)
From this it's obvious you can't say stories (and especially when you have world building to do) aren't political since your views of the world you live in is supposed to be what your political philosophy is based on.
However (pretty much like you wouldn't tell the same story your friend would tell you) it doesn't mean that doing a political analysis of a work makes sense since (guess what) the way you interpret stories depends on your own views too.
A Japanese girl would probably feel her heart beating when she sees the male lead takes the girl's hand while for most westerner it's not really any hint of high intimacy.
This to say that "All arts are political" is probably true and that spitting on some westerners who have seen a symbol of racism in Frieren doesn't make sense when yourself you would put your own views on other elements of the show.
Now then as a filthy Belgian european white male that those SJW would probably want to see dead I have to say that character's redemption is absolutely not a western thing. Just look at pretty much any Fairy Tail episode to see the Japanese do it too. And I have to add I haven't seen any racism in Frieren.
Few are those who would start writing a book without having read any.
Based on this you always put your ideas, views and stereotypes in all stories you tell. (If you don't believe me take a friend with you and go for a walk in a city. Before you leave each other to go home try telling each other what you have seen. You'll see it's most likely your friend won't say the same thing than you. I did it for university no students who tried could have the same story at the end than any other student)
From this it's obvious you can't say stories (and especially when you have world building to do) aren't political since your views of the world you live in is supposed to be what your political philosophy is based on.
However (pretty much like you wouldn't tell the same story your friend would tell you) it doesn't mean that doing a political analysis of a work makes sense since (guess what) the way you interpret stories depends on your own views too.
A Japanese girl would probably feel her heart beating when she sees the male lead takes the girl's hand while for most westerner it's not really any hint of high intimacy.
This to say that "All arts are political" is probably true and that spitting on some westerners who have seen a symbol of racism in Frieren doesn't make sense when yourself you would put your own views on other elements of the show.
Now then as a filthy Belgian european white male that those SJW would probably want to see dead I have to say that character's redemption is absolutely not a western thing. Just look at pretty much any Fairy Tail episode to see the Japanese do it too. And I have to add I haven't seen any racism in Frieren.
| @DragyG Firstly, the claim that "all art is political" is not equal to the claim that "all art carries a political message". The only way all art can be political is if you consider the very core of human perception (as it is understood to differ from person to person) as an inherently political aspect, in which case even fucking cave paintings were political, even though the human who made them probably did not have any sort of ideology nor perhaps the behavioral modernity to build one, so where would be the political value there? The fact that your surroundings and experiences shape your political views doesn't mean that your political views necessarily shape your works or that your works have some sort of political message embedded into them, because if this is true for all art, then it blurs the line between Mein Kampf and Moonlight Sonata by practically putting them on the same category. Getting that out of the way, my criticism is not about people analyzing works through their own lens (as everyone would realistically do), but rather the fact that they do it in a very self-righteous and explicitly political way when there is simply no need to do so, because the work they're analyzing is not intended to carry any sort of political message. This obsession with looking at everything politically, regardless of ideology, instead of just consuming a piece of art and understanding it as a self-contained story most likely meant explicitly for entertainment, is annoying and unnecessary. I also never claimed that moral grays are exclusive to western media. My claim was that western stories tend more towards moral grays and avoid moral absolutes, specially in recent history. This is why just about every single game or movie that comes out these days tends to have some sort of character who goes from evil (or good) to the opposite. |
| Pretend there's something flashy and cool here. |
| its moral dilemma and dark triad exist to measure evil |
Nobef said: as a german speaker i feel pretty weird about the caracters german names,for example the names are like:running,thinking,strong,etc. pretty much this haha but most other names dont really make sense so i dont know why they went for that  |
| This Twitter thread just popped up on my TL. I suggest everyone to read it. The show presents a world in which objective evil exists in the form of a race of creatures called demons. However, the fundamental tenet of modern leftism is the absence of objectivity, the denial of any real moral standards by which we can judge actions of both individuals as well as collective groups. Leftist still feels the need to defend literal monsters and calls Frieren a fascist. To them, accepting demons as evil would imply that there exists a moral standard by which the character of an individual or a group can by judged. It implies that true good and evil exists. Once you begin judging people as good or bad you would discover that certain groups are, by varying metrics, better than others. A hierarchy exists. That is unacceptable to the leftist, whose entire worldview hinges on treating people as interchangeable, equivalent. Once you acknowledge that certain groups of people more moral than others every single excuse for leftist degeneracy falls apart. Morality, standards and accountability are anathema to the leftist. Overall, Frieren itself is not political, but it contains themes that directly contradicts leftist ideology and they really don't like it. |
PiromyslJan 20, 7:20 AM
|
| I mean, it’s not really political tho? Or at least it doesn’t really have to be. You can view it that way, but the core problem OG Frieren’s demon situation has always been just that it’s a poorly-implemented worldbuilding concept that doesn’t mesh with the rest of the series’s themes and thus tends to actively undercut its own story. The fact that it also pairs this with all the inherent baggage of the “Always Chaotic Evil Race” trope (evil as something’s inherent nature rather than a perversion of something’s fundamentally good nature or a choice is an idea that even JRR Tolkien himself famously wasn’t comfortable with) does compound that, and I suspect it’s just the thing most people point to because articulating the nuances of why something might not sit right with you is very difficult in practice (hence why being a critic is a job). Reducing it down to “Leftists calling something racist” is an inherently reductionist view of the topic as a whole which feels willfully blind to what people are actually saying. |
Infamous_EmpireJan 20, 6:44 AM
| Barely catching my breath! Lay my eyes on the crest! Gonna square up to all of the heat that is left! So I carry the torch! To Inferno! Inferno! GENERATION 45: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. |
Piromysl said: This Twitter thread just popped up on my TL. I suggest everyone to read it. The show presents a world in which objective evil exists in the form of a race of creatures called demons. However, the fundamental tenet of modern leftism is the absence of objectivity, the denial of any real moral standards by which we can judge actions of both individuals as well as collective groups. Leftist still feels the need to defend literal monsters and calls Frieren a fascist. To them, accepting demons as evil would imply that there exists a moral standard by which the character of an individual or a group can by judged. It implies that true good and evil exists. Once you begin judging people as good or bad you would discover that certain groups are, by varying metrics, better than others. A hierarchy exists. That is unacceptable to the leftist, whose entire worldview hinges on treating people as interchangeable, equivalent. Once you acknowledge that certain groups of people more moral than others every single excuse for leftist degeneracy falls apart. Morality, standards and accountability are anathema to the leftist. Overall, Frieren itself is not political, but it contains themes that directly contradicts leftist ideology and they really don't like it. Alright, sorry for the double post, but I felt the need to respond to the king of reductionist takes over here. Firstly, the existence of objective evil isn’t really a problem, the concept of evil as inherent nature, rather than evil as a choice, is. This post equates those things as being the exact same, but practically speaking, there’s a huge difference. Basically, the idea that you can simplistically judge someone as being irredeemably evil purely based on just their biological characteristics rather than, you know, anything they’ve actually done is something that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. One could call this political, but on a deeper level, it’s because most conceptions of free will fundamentally entails the capacity for good, and thus having a species which is both completely sapient and inherently evil often just comes across as a contradiction in terms. That’s not to say that the Always Chaotic Evil Race trope is inherently a bad thing, it’s just that a story needs to play it the right way and write the concept in a way that doesn’t make people uncomfortable. Dungeons & Dragons have maintained their versions of Demons & Devils as being essentially made of evil, but the logic behind that is because they’re basically spirits from alternate dimensions that are essentially made of philosophical concepts, which also helpfully makes everything about them so grounded in the fantastical & mythological nature of the setting that it’s hard to compare them to anything in the real world. The Hyenas from The Lion King are all evil, but the film never says it’s in their inherent nature to be evil, and thus reaps the benefits of having an always evil enemy race without having to engage with any of the philosophical baggage. Before Attack on Titan went full Gray Morality, the Titans were pretty much universally monsters that needed to be killed, but the series very effectively portrayed them as animalistic by nature, and cloaking a lot of the rest of their nature behind mysteries. This flows into the point that the problem isn’t necessarily that Frieren’s has an always evil race, just that it’s really bad at writing them. Trying to develop them in this way at all means the series lacks the plausible deniability of something like the Hyenas, the series’s explanations for demonkind are rooted in biology rather than the supernatural, and the biological essentialism specifically is what dings the instincts that lead people to see this as problematic, on top of the biological explanations themselves often coming across as flimsy, nonsensical, and contradictory. And unlike the Titans, Frieren’s demons aren’t believably animalistic in the slightest, at best they’re sapient beings with a serial killer gene, which also feeds into the previous point about how most of the explanations for Frieren’s demons don’t make a lick of sense. All of this is also on top of the most inherent problem the series faces in this regard, which is just that the Demons don’t mesh with the series’s themes at all. Like, seriously, whose idea was it to take a series about reflecting on the past to find value in everything the world has to offer, especially things you might have once thought aren’t worth your time, and about someone trying to overcome their own inherent nature to connect with others & the beauty in everyone’s capacity for change, and then adding an entire race whose entire deal is that Frieren doesn’t have to reflect on or change her views on them at all, their stories aren’t worth finding value in in the slightest, and who are fundamentally incapable of changing or defying their nature? Like, there’s such a blatant, fundamental contradiction in the text here and the series’s blistering lack of self-awareness about its writing in this regard is bizarre to the point of being maddening. |
Infamous_EmpireJan 20, 8:04 AM
| Barely catching my breath! Lay my eyes on the crest! Gonna square up to all of the heat that is left! So I carry the torch! To Inferno! Inferno! GENERATION 45: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment. |
| We already had this discussion before https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2124461 and https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2190735 |
JoeChipJan 20, 8:03 AM
| I mean they have only seen the earliest example of Demons in the show and kinda think it goes deeper, and it does but not in the way they think. KNY and a lot of other series have basically trained them to expect that "they're just misunderstood" angle which then sometimes by overthinking becomes symbolism for something IRL. MANGA/S2 SPOILERS AHEAD If we continue giving them clout they will just continue for the grift even though the evidence it is diferent is in the show itself. If anything, THEY'RE FUCKING DOLPHINS. |
GokaiKingJan 20, 8:13 AM
  愛がなければ、見えない。 Without Love, the truth cannot be seen. |
| Conclusion: People should read some Tolkien. |
| MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
Reply to missilemil
ImNotAnOtaku1 said:
Since Frieren aired, I've increasingly seen more and more how, for some reason, lots of people, specifically Americans and other westerners, have decided to look at Frieren's plot and characters through a political lens (for whatever reason), and specially focus on the demon dilemma.
As shown in the anime, demons have no empathy. All that they can do is mimic human emotions as a way to deceive people, whom they'll then murder. In other words, demons are portrayed as objectively evil and irredeemable. However, this seems to really piss off some people who have normalized western storytelling, where the bad guys are often times multi-layered and often end up being morally gray or redeem themselves in some way. Simply, a lot of people seem unable to accept the idea of a story where there's a clear distinction between good and evil, and so they translate this into politics (for God knows what reason), and equate such storytelling device to racism, because it promotes the idea of true evil being endemic to a particular group, even if the line between fantasy and reality, in this case, is drawn in very bright and visible colors.
What are your thoughts on this?
Since Frieren aired, I've increasingly seen more and more how, for some reason, lots of people, specifically Americans and other westerners, have decided to look at Frieren's plot and characters through a political lens (for whatever reason), and specially focus on the demon dilemma.
As shown in the anime, demons have no empathy. All that they can do is mimic human emotions as a way to deceive people, whom they'll then murder. In other words, demons are portrayed as objectively evil and irredeemable. However, this seems to really piss off some people who have normalized western storytelling, where the bad guys are often times multi-layered and often end up being morally gray or redeem themselves in some way. Simply, a lot of people seem unable to accept the idea of a story where there's a clear distinction between good and evil, and so they translate this into politics (for God knows what reason), and equate such storytelling device to racism, because it promotes the idea of true evil being endemic to a particular group, even if the line between fantasy and reality, in this case, is drawn in very bright and visible colors.
What are your thoughts on this?
I don't think you can call beings acting on instinct inherently "evil".
Sure they trick humans to gain sympathy before striking, but that's not anymore evil than a poisonous snake that's evolved to look and act like the prey of whatever animal they are trying to catch, to lure them in.
But the western idea of a redeemable bad guy is extremely faulty when applied to a lot of non-western media, I agree.
| @missilemil as I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I don't consider demons as evil due to their murderous nature, but rather due to their willingly manipulative nature. They're intelligent beings who actively look to kill others, which certainly is different to, for instance, SNK's titans, who aren't capable of rational thought. As someone else mentioned, perhaps the way they're written is confusing, since intelligence normally leads to morality, which demons lack. However, I believe the author intended the demons to be some sort of plot device to show a clear distinction between good and evil in its worldbuilding, and as a way to explain how Frieren doesn't base herself on a moral code or let herself be swayed by emotions, but rather carries herself based on over a thousand years of experience. The idea is to practically break the common trope of characters trying to come to terms with whether their enemy is truly bad (as it is common nowadays) and instead have her be more brutal to contrast with everyone else's perception, based entirely on wisdom. |
| Pretend there's something flashy and cool here. |
| Demons are not moral beings, they are more like a virus/wild animal and it's morally good to murder every single one of them which leads to my biggest issue with them... They are boring. They have no potential to change, their actions aren't fun to see like idk Dio to name an evil character, the conflict has nothing to explore, any human that shows the smallest bit of kindness to a demon they knew for 100000 of years with no issues and mutual "love" is still an objectively wrong dumbass, I wish the manga turned into Frieren snuffing demon babies in their cribs, that would be funny at least. |
| People looking for a hidden meaning in a message that had been openly spelled out are like the embodiment of a high-school teacher stereotype, who will look for a hidden agenda in everything: "The door in this passage is blue, hence the author must have meant the freedom of choice!". Meanwhile, the author: "I like blue, I will make the character slap the blue paint on that door". In the chase after the supposedly hidden message, they lost the proverbial plot. I wouldn't be surprised, if in a big portion, that drama was stirred due to engagement farming. Unfortunately, internet + ad revenue + cynical influencers is a volatile concoction. |
| lol demons are amoral or wild animals absolutely not considering they are smart and can talk like us humans so they have personhood too and anyone considered a person is subject to morals its the same thing with the upcoming robots and strong ai once they attain intelligence like ours then they will have morals too |
I love the boomer racist Frieren memes. Pretty sure most people like saying it as a joke. |
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