Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio: Ars Nova Episode 6 Discussion

Nov 16, 2013 12:19 PM

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Oct 2012

6648

AnimageNeby said:
I mean, when one would be consistent in following your reasoning, and a company would say: well, we only get ONE episode, so we're going to cram in as much as possible

Japanese TV doesn't work that way, unlike the US where you can be cancelled after a single episode and the hope is to create a hit that will be extended, in Japan things work differently. Shows are committed to a single season (11-13 episodes) and the complete season will generally run no matter how horrific the ratings; the animation market, particularly the late night animation market, will almost never have cancellations because the Production company generally has pre-purchased the time. Ad revenue consequently is of far less importance. So the producers of Aoki knew they had 11 episodes before they even started to animate it, thus the story was altered to fit this time frame.

All this planning and coordination takes time (which is why even shows that are big hits, if a second season wasn't planned with the first, generally take 2-3 years to air - the production team first has to decide whether they want to do it, then they have to line up the tv slot, try to find some advertisers, work with the talent to get them all free, and then when that is all done, only then do the animate it). That means the plot of this story was decided on in 2010-2011, when of course there was far less material to work with. The producers probably decided then to do their own version.

AnimageNeby said:
it's a lot, and a mean a lot, less good than what it's supposed to be based off.

This is why I almost never watch an animation I read, I am very seldom happy with the adaption. Had I read it I may have been in the same camp as the manga readers. But because I know this I either DON'T read or I just assume the animation is something completely different. As long as the story is interesting and is internally consistent I really don't mind.

AnimageNeby said:
so reasons from a meta-perspective ('it's to appeal to a larger audience', 'it's to make more profit', etc.) just don't cut it. .....I'm always baffled by people who do not seem to get the point that it doesn't matter what the *cause* is for something to make something not too good, to acknowledge that it is not very good. (Again: making the point in regard to the reasoning used, not saying the series itself is crap.)

But see you are sort of arguing against yourself. Even though you believe this show could have been better, you are not willing to say that it is bad. That means that the adapters have done a good job. Great job? Probably not, but a good job. And considering that probably 90% of the people who are watching this show have never read the manga, a smart job.

Denying market forces is ridiculous. The producers are the one risking their money, they make decisions based on what they think it right. And they have the right to do this. Given the fact that this shows seems to be doing better than forecast, again this shows that the adapters are doing a good job.

Nov 17, 2013 11:46 AM

#102

Tenzen12

Offline

Apr 2011

737

Takuan_Soho said:

This is why I almost never watch an animation I read, I am very seldom happy with the adaption. Had I read it I may have been in the same camp as the manga readers. But because I know this I either DON'T read or I just assume the animation is something completely different. As long as the story is interesting and is internally consistent I really don't mind.

Problem is that due badly integrated changes it ISN'T "internally consistent"

But see you are sort of arguing against yourself. Even though you believe this show could have been better, you are not willing to say that it is bad. That means that the adapters have done a good job. Great job? Probably not, but a good job. And considering that probably 90% of the people who are watching this show have never read the manga, a smart job.

Denying market forces is ridiculous. The producers are the one risking their money, they make decisions based on what they think it right. And they have the right to do this. Given the fact that this shows seems to be doing better than forecast, again this shows that the adapters are doing a good job.

Let's look what is good on Ars nova
-cool naval battles
-Interesting settings
-Macross like premise (of first one)

What is bad on Ars nova
-Flat characterisation
-Plot holes
-contrived coincidences

Accidentaly all good points originate from manga, bad one are result of failed modificarion. I don't think arguments that just because team screwed only half of material they did good job is realy valid. If you do changes make sure it will not cause massive drop in quality.

You can also guess which of these two collums cause popularity of it.

There was one change that was well handled, Yokosuka battle, which clearly bear Gods handwriting. But even that helps to show get some bad emphasis in it.

Tenzen12Nov 18, 2013 4:26 PM

Nov 18, 2013 8:10 AM

#103

lpjp200

Offline

Jun 2012

40

This show has a great story, soundtrack, and characters, so I don't mind the CG animation at all. People who complain about it remind me of Xbox/PS3 fanboys, complaining about the Wii not having top tier graphics.

Nov 18, 2013 8:25 AM

#104

AnimageNeby

Offline

Feb 2013

623

Takuan_Soho said:

AnimageNeby said:
I mean, when one would be consistent in following your reasoning, and a company would say: well, we only get ONE episode, so we're going to cram in as much as possible

Japanese TV doesn't work that way, unlike the US where you can be cancelled after a single episode and the hope is to create a hit that will be extended, in Japan things work differently. Shows are committed to a single season (11-13 episodes) and the complete season will generally run no matter how horrific the ratings; the animation market, particularly the late night animation market, will almost never have cancellations because the Production company generally has pre-purchased the time. Ad revenue consequently is of far less importance. So the producers of Aoki knew they had 11 episodes before they even started to animate it, thus the story was altered to fit this time frame.

All this planning and coordination takes time (which is why even shows that are big hits, if a second season wasn't planned with the first, generally take 2-3 years to air - the production team first has to decide whether they want to do it, then they have to line up the tv slot, try to find some advertisers, work with the talent to get them all free, and then when that is all done, only then do the animate it). That means the plot of this story was decided on in 2010-2011, when of course there was far less material to work with. The producers probably decided then to do their own version.

I wasn't trying to say Japanese TV works that way or not, I was only indicating that the reasoning used, when applied consistently, is rather nonsensical, because ALL subpar anime, even crap, can be considered 'fairly good given the constraints', if those constraints are severe enough. But that doesn't cut it. Surely you must see that as well? If you step into an airplane, and it has all sorts of difficulties, including landing, are you seriously going to find the explanation "well, it went reasonably well, considering two engines were broke and the wing/tail was rusted solid"? EVEN if it were true the airplane performed admirable under those conditions, it still would be crappy flying and bad.

AnimageNeby said:
it's a lot, and a mean a lot, less good than what it's supposed to be based off.

This is why I almost never watch an animation I read, I am very seldom happy with the adaption. Had I read it I may have been in the same camp as the manga readers. But because I know this I either DON'T read or I just assume the animation is something completely different. As long as the story is interesting and is internally consistent I really don't mind.

AnimageNeby said:
so reasons from a meta-perspective ('it's to appeal to a larger audience', 'it's to make more profit', etc.) just don't cut it. .....I'm always baffled by people who do not seem to get the point that it doesn't matter what the *cause* is for something to make something not too good, to acknowledge that it is not very good. (Again: making the point in regard to the reasoning used, not saying the series itself is crap.)

But see you are sort of arguing against yourself. Even though you believe this show could have been better, you are not willing to say that it is bad. That means that the adapters have done a good job. Great job? Probably not, but a good job. And considering that probably 90% of the people who are watching this show have never read the manga, a smart job.

Denying market forces is ridiculous. The producers are the one risking their money, they make decisions based on what they think it right. And they have the right to do this. Given the fact that this shows seems to be doing better than forecast, again this shows that the adapters are doing a good job.

Your reasoning seem to lack some logic in the area of deduction. Why would I argue against myself? I don't. I think it's your personal take (aka, your interpretation) of what I say that you think is counter-arguing. But your interpretation is incorrect. I'm saying the series is crap at worst, and fairly good at best (depends on the episode). All in all, it hoovers between mediocre and reasonably ok. This does not mean, as you say, that they did a good job. They did an ok job at best. (Ok, it depends on what one understands under 'good' and 'bad' and 'great', but I set the sight high.) If one would put it on a score of 10, then 5 or 6 isn't good, it's passable.)

But there is where the crux our difference lays, I think. You're satisfied with what 80% of the populace would find good, or even great. I don't. And it's not entirely due to the fact that I read the manga; I would have noticed some inconsistencies and the lacklustre characterisation, plot holes and contrived coincidences EVEN if I hadn't read the manga. (I had the same problem with the completely illogical 'philosophy' that was being portrayed in Gargantia, where a 'peaceful' fleet doesn't want to kill one single life of pirates, who are robbing, raping, pillaging and murdering them. I liked Gargantia, but that was just BS. No civilisation could survive on those terms. And yet, even after saying all that, they started to shell and bomb the enemy ships.... what? They wouldn't kill anyone with that??)

Well, anyway, point is, an attentive reader/watcher notices those things. And those things undermine the coherency of the portrayed world. The fact that 80% would think it's good, only shows that 80% does either not notice and do not have the necessary discerning quality to do so, or they're satisfied with just mediocrity (ship to ship action, one poster called it: aka; action (violence) and ecchi (sex).

You also seem to think that because they had to shorten it, they could not do anything else as what they did. This is untrue. If they REALLY had done a *good* job, no inconsistencies would have been present, for instance. It doesn't mean they can't cut entire scenes out, it means you must make sure the things you cut out don't interfere with the logical flow of what you DO show. With some slight changes, they could have made it far better, even considering they don't have a 24 episode-series. Or, they could have decided to stop the series on another point in time (the battle at Iowa, for instance), and flesh the other episodes more out. One can go about it in a myriad of ways, in fact. But they did what they did, and they made a passable series, but not a very good one. The consequences of their decisions, however, do not change; it doesn't become any better just because one realises they had constraints. When I compare the quality of the anime, I look at what one would consider elevated standards to which a high quality anime should adhere to, not at something like 'they did their best given the circumstances'. See my analogy with the airplane. If I did my best of making a videogame, and it was only mediocre and had bugs, people would still be right to point that out, even if I could argue that I only had 12 hours to make it. They would also still be right if I said that 80% of the people still liked the game, or that I did it as a promotional stunt, or to make sure I got some profit of it. That can all be true; but the bugs would still be bugs, and the video still be subpar, or, if you prefer 'ok' or even 'fairly good' ...but still not as a good, finished videogame should be.

Also, I'm not denying market forces. I'm saying market forces are irrelevant in the appreciation of the anime itself. As I've said before (http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=685565&show=80#msg26287015) it's all good and well that the producers want to make a new season, or that they want to promote CGI, or the company wants to maximise their profits, etc. That's all understandable from their point of view. It does not, however, in any way change the quality of the anime they make.

Edit: Reading it back, I realise it may come off as being too negative, which isn't my intention, but happens because one focusses on the negative parts when one is criticising, obviously. If I'm generous, I'm still of the opinion that the anime can be considered *fairly* good at moments, and is still worth watching (most other anime this season are way worse, btw). It's just that I get annoyed of this "it's good enough" attitude, and all the excuses with the meta-reasons like they want to maximise profits and have only 11-12 episodes. No, god dammit! "Good enough" is NOT something to strive for, and no, the facts of the inconsistencies and diminished world-coherence does not go away by the fact that they have to end it in 12 episodes. While I acknowledge there ARE real-world considerations like the 'market forces' at play, I would like to hear the opposite too; that people recognise that the anime could have been far better with a little bit more effort, and that there ARE faults and inconsistencies introduced.

It doesn't mean it's become unbearable to watch, but it's not not as good as it could and should be, let's face it. I refute the appeal to be blind for its faults or to be satisfied with just 'good enough' as the new standard where no criticism is warranted anymore.

AnimageNebyNov 18, 2013 3:23 PM

Nov 21, 2013 10:54 AM

#105

Azetaminofen

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Jul 2013

1237

Iona to the rescue. Hell, I take tremendous surprise with Makie, I thought she was going to die. I caused intrigue the end.

Nov 22, 2013 3:19 PM

#106

MagicFlier

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Nov 2009

1295

No heavy death from the healthy father that was in the manga. >w>
...but since they turned the existence of the healthy father into a non-existent father that's suppose to be dead, that really helps shorten the story by a large amount. Also seeing Haruna and Kirishima became somewhat more familiar with Gunzou before the manga is great, lol.

So I approve of this. ~

Nov 22, 2013 3:56 PM

#107

BurntJelly

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Feb 2013

6196

Well, I wanted to see what mental models could do.
Kirishma-pink-teddybear kick!

That was great!

Dec 1, 2013 3:56 AM

#108

gophercg

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Mar 2012

4119

ya fighting teddy was epic funny! need more martial arts bears in anime.
Last episode was sadder, but both were very nice character dev. The Rock Crab mech entrance was quite cool.

Dec 12, 2013 11:52 AM

#109

minimiau

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Aug 2007

3774

I didn't expect that Iona will save Haruna and that girl. I was expecting someone else help

Dec 13, 2013 4:05 AM

#110

Tenzen12

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Apr 2011

737

Originaly it was someone else.

Dec 28, 2013 8:24 AM

#111

silverwalls

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Nov 2012

15463

LOL the fighting teddy rocked.

Jan 8, 2014 11:16 PM

#112

Rayl1ght

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Oct 2012

7191

Ah.. Pedobear kick xD
The hero always comes late... So it's really true
Next ep Hyuuga & Takao join Gunzou's harem, eh crew

End card, who is she?

Tenzen12 said:
Originaly it was someone else.

So, who's supposed to save them?

"Signature removed"

Jan 16, 2014 11:24 AM

#113

randompadley

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Jan 2012

1349

great episode for me, its funny how the manga readers are mostly disliking the anime for deviating whereas im just loving this show as an anime watcher only, the CGI was okay for me too didn't have no issues, had some tender moments also with the girls, and nice action scenes and bad ass 401 coming in.... im happy :)

Feb 11, 2014 6:59 PM

#114

Ckan

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Mar 2008

24335

It's going to be interesting to see where this goes. While it all looks pretty nice, it's a shame to lose the solid writing of the manga.

***>> Click here and help feed a hungry hungry Zerg in need! (￣﹃￣✿) <<***

Mar 11, 2014 6:27 AM

#115

funkotaku

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Sep 2011

10430

Daayuuum that was so good!!! What a turn around from the first few episodes!

Apr 1, 2014 2:43 AM

#116

Tengai

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May 2012

7011

The beginning was heartbreaking :'(
Haruna was badass, and that coat is making her look so cool!!!
I didn't thought that I will like Haruna this much :3
I was expecting Gunzou and the gang to save them.
Iona owned them all, the soldiers were running ahahaha.

Sury said:
I'm an anime only viewer, but I have to say those last two episodes have been really great for me. Would be interested in learning what's so different from the manga.

Same here.
I guess it's a good thing that I am watching this Anime first.
I shall add the Manga on my plan to read now :3

Frontalbrise said:
I laughed so hard, when Kirishima made this toy-squeak sounds while kicking down soldiers left and right.

I am pleased with the anime and after the many posts I will check out the manga after the show ended.

Yeah, that squeaking was cute.
Kirishima bear for the win!!!

Entravity said:
Interesting how this show is getting better and better every episode. Using mental models of fog who are not human to gradually gain human feelings is a good way of progressing development.

Agreed :D

This "vibration warhead" is really humanity's trump card, cause you know, "vibration".
The "fogs" are girls, right? How lewd :3

Apr 4, 2014 3:40 AM

#117

AivanK

Offline

Jan 2013

4202

Finally we see a member of Neblina changing sides,she just wanted to protect Maki and make a friend.Humas as always being bastards by attacking innocent people.
Iona <3 That was amazing :D

"There is no such thing as an Anime elitist. You watch Anime, therefore, you are trash by society's standards."

Apr 7, 2014 9:01 AM

#118

RafaelDeJongh

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May 2012

25828

An android that can express feelings towards a genetically created child and even manage to protect her! Well that's pretty sweet I must say the development is pretty sweet actually!

Sep 26, 2014 12:01 AM

#119

WolfWood37

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Jul 2008

11161

And the harem grows, we have 3 mental models...however still just the one ship.

Nov 12, 2014 7:39 PM

#120

BurntJelly

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Feb 2013

6196

Haruna sure showed them who's boss. Then Iona saves the day with her cute-attacks.

Gunzou harem fleet +2.

Dec 9, 2014 2:13 AM

#121

Nano1124

Offline

Feb 2013

1926

Damn, don'tmess with Haruna. Good episode overall. I have't read the manga but apparently it deviated from it? I plan to read the manga someday. Good episode.

Mar 19, 2016 2:31 PM

#122

LhasAps

Offline

Sep 2014

813

Aww, Makie and Haruharu are so cute together. :3
Loved teddybear Kirishima.

Sep 20, 2018 10:57 AM

#123

ShadowkillZ

Absolute Zenith

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Mar 2016

3893

Alright, I may not know how the mental models of the Fog are all so superhumanly powerful, and even has those hologram shields and black hole kinda thing, but I never knew that objects that the core of the fog get into can also be powerful (in terms of normal human's strength) and can produce at least a little of those shield thing. In this case, Kirishima... Those soldiers will never gonna mess with a teddy bear ever again...

Iona and her crew saving Haruna, Kirishima and Makie might be the beginning of an alliance. If you add Takao to that then this possible alliance would be pretty much capable of going up against the rest of the known Fog. Of course, this is just a possibility.

Feb 7, 2020 9:16 PM

#124

Vindicater

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Jul 2016

3210

silverwalls said:
LOL the fighting teddy rocked.

I did have a chuckle.

Jun 13, 2020 5:41 PM

#125

djharvey

Offline

Oct 2018

2

Episode six of Arpeggio of Blue Steel is among my absolute favorite individual anime episodes ever. I rewatch this episode every month or two and I never get tired of it. The show gets heat for the use of cg but I think the animation is mostly decent. Fantastic episode for a great show.

May 22, 2024 7:51 AM

#126

Archean-Return

Offline

Dec 2022

5368

So that's where Makie being a "Design Child" comes into play. She otherwise comes across as a normal kid, but casually created a revolutionary vibration warhead design on her own, with her only innocent consideration in doing so being that she wanted to enjoy the company of the others around her.

There is much to question about the reluctance of the Mental Models (like Iona and Haruna) to kill any humans, even when the humans themselves have no qualms about offing anyone. Perhaps that's the irony of the setting, in that the Fleet of Fog characters are more reasonable than many of the ostensibly stubborn, callous human forces. If nothing else, they're certainly more merciful.

ｲ乇刀乇乃尺ﾑ乇

╔⏤═⏤╝

╚⏤═⏤╗

☽ Shaded Horizon ☾

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