| When i started to watch this anime i thought i was going to experience something fantastic, but i didn't. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad but it ain't great either, well actually it is pretty bad. The characters are bland, standard, uninteresting and devoid of any personality. The story is undeniably predictable and cliche, i think some Hentai have done this better at this point. There is just not much going on in the story and not in contemplative and thoughtful way, it's just feels slow and predictable because they didn't know any better. Every scene of dialogue exchanged feels like something i've heard before and the editing seems to be really unpredictable in a unnerving way. Sometimes it was way too fast and way too long for its own good, and generally the show feels more like random scenes stuck together than a cohesive whole. I feel like the show is just missing its style. Overall it's all around a big disappointment for me, there are many shows i personally dislike but still can see value in or understand why people like it. This one got me totally lost. there is nothing to feel and nothing to enjoy for me in this show, and that's a shame because i really wanted it to be good. What is the value in this and why does it deserve to be above Bebop and Mononoke? I don't give scores but if i did have to give this one a score to this show id give it a 5 and that's on its high points. |
| It's good because the TV series is bad. It magnifies that good. |
Paul said: It's good because the TV series is bad. It magnifies that good. Sounds actually pretty logical, think something similar happened to Fate/Zero and its predecessor |
MangoSamuraiJun 16, 2017 5:04 PM
FP_SagaS said: When i started to watch this anime i thought i was going to experience something fantastic, but i didn't. Don't get me wrong, it's not bad but it ain't great either, well actually it is pretty bad. The characters are bland, standard, uninteresting and devoid of any personality. The story is undeniably predictable and cliche, i think some Hentai have done this better at this point. There is just not much going on in the story and not in contemplative and thoughtful way, it's just feels slow and predictable because they didn't know any better. Every scene of dialogue exchanged feels like something i've heard before and the editing seems to be really unpredictable in a unnerving way. Sometimes it was way too fast and way too long for its own good, and generally the show feels more like random scenes stuck together than a cohesive whole. I feel like the show is just missing its style. Overall it's all around a big disappointment for me, there are many shows i personally dislike but still can see value in or understand why people like it. This one got me totally lost. there is nothing to feel and nothing to enjoy for me in this show, and that's a shame because i really wanted it to be good. What is the value in this and why does it deserve to be above Bebop and Mononoke? I don't give scores but if i did have to give this one a score to this show id give it a 5 and that's on its high points. Have you already watched the rurouni kenshin anime series which 94 episode long first. I'm assuming you haven't because if you didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't see why you would seek out Trust and betrayal (the OVA) let alone finish a "long" series. Not taking a shot I just feel most people would enjoy trust and betrayal once they've gotten to know kenshin in the anime. Then we get to see the contrast in his personalities. maybe, you have seen the main anime and didn't like it which is it cool, cause I feel the same about cowboy bebop/angel beats which are considered classic. My only issue would be the statement of the dialogue, its an anime made in the late 90s so Im not sure how you could fault that on the anime. |
SeidouTZ said: Great review OP 10/10, i mark this one as "very helpful" ^^ OT: You know you could had put this in the respective series discussion subforum right? Either way i can not speak about the anime as i still have not watched it yet, but i just recently start reading the manga which i am liking quite a lot so far. Good mixture of comedy and action, interesting world and likeable characters. Well first of it wasn't my intention to do a review, if i did want to do a review i could go into a lot more detail about it. Also i tried posting it in the subforum but there ain't nobody reacting to my post there, pretty boring. |
MangoSamuraiJun 16, 2017 5:05 PM
| It's been forever since I've seen it and want to rewatch. It has some nice parts, from memory. I feel that way about other shows though, like lotgh. Garbage series. |
ampd said: Have you already watched the rurouni kenshin anime series which 94 episode long first. I'm assuming you haven't because if you didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't see why you would seek out Trust and betrayal (the OVA) let alone finish a "long" series. Not taking a shot I just feel most people would enjoy trust and betrayal once they've gotten to know kenshin in the anime. Then we get to see the contrast in his personalities. maybe, you have seen the main anime and didn't like it which is it cool, cause I feel the same about cowboy bebop/angel beats which are considered classic. My only issue would be the statement of the dialogue, its an anime made in the late 90s so Im not sure how you could fault that on the anime. Most people told me i don't need to watch the series to understand this OVA, it should stand on its own. Also yes i could fault it for its dialogue, time has nothing to do with that. I believe in the late 90s that dialogue was already kind of cliche. |
MangoSamuraiJun 16, 2017 5:06 PM
| Tbh it is kind of a boring movie. I watched it a couple years ago and wasnt extremely impressed. I still enjoyed it however as much of Kenshin's past was a huge mystery and this cleared *some* things up. Hiko Seijruo's monologue at the beginning was pretty interesting too. If you do end up watching the main anime I recommend watching Trust and Betrayal after the Shishio arc. And honestly, you can stop watching the show after that point. Reading the manga from that point on is better in my opinion. |
| To be honest, I'm not sure how much I would have liked either it had I not seen the original anime series as a kid. I feel like people who see the anime first almost always have a much different perspective on T&B than those who watch it as a stand-alone. |
| I've never watched it, because it doesn't look very interesting to me. Also, I'm not into "historical Japan" stuff. From what I can tell, most of the people who like it, only like it because they saw the series on that "Toonami" thing that the yanks got. Toonami never existed up here in Canada, so I had never even heard of Rurouni Kenshin until I was much older. |
 |
| You have to watch the anime or read the manga to fully appreciate the Trust and Betrayal OVA. Paul said: The tv series isn't bad at all, the OVA is just better.It's good because the TV series is bad. |
 |
| so it is not trust and betrayal that you do not get it is the fan reaction to it? I would the say is pretty easy to understand the appeal,the grittier samurai action,the interesting historical setting,the tragic love story i also think the themes are fairly straighforward(trust and betrayal)every character puts trust in something in the series and ends up being betrayed,and the differents paths enishi and kenshin take about the trust put uopon other on them is probably the film thesis |
gabrielrroiz said: so it is not trust and betrayal that you do not get it is the fan reaction to it? I would the say is pretty easy to understand the appeal,the grittier samurai action,the interesting historical setting,the tragic love story i also think the themes are fairly straighforward(trust and betrayal)every character puts trust in something in the series and ends up being betrayed,and the differents paths enishi and kenshin take about the trust put uopon other on them is probably the film thesis Well yes it's straightforward but not in an artistic manner like mushishi. That's why i don't understand the popularity of it. There must be better series out there because this was really disappointing |
| I haven't watched Kenshin in a long time so my memory is hazy, but I definitely remember how great Tsuioku-hen was. This anime brings a lot of character development to Kenshin that people who have not watched the anime can not experience. While it can be a standalone, it is much better to watch the anime first. By doing this you are introduced to Kenshin's character, a very carefree man. For me, this is why Tsuioku-hen hits so hard because the change in Kenshin's character is so drastic. You see how someone he loved gave up their life to save his, which makes him vow to never to kill anyone again. This is what makes use a battousai later on and strive to become a better human that can save people, not kill them. |
| It's subtle and moody. It's gorgeous and gritty. It's classic samurai drama with romance and betrayal. It's an immersive character study of a young man who started out empty but began to find meaning in his life (e.g. the running motif of the taste of sake). It's a highly atmospheric story that tells an engrossing story. That's the secret, mang. |
 This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
| Well it's pretty good ova,a good mixture of real history and fiction and a tragic love story,great OST,the animation and the artstyle were good (excluding some live action shots in the background)it's much better than the tv series (which I've watched some of its episodes and it was too ridiculous to watch) but you've got a point here,the characters were somehow bland and the ending was a bit confusing(until now I don't understand why she left kenshin and went to the assassins' hideout instead of telling kenshin the truth and running away with him ) |
bigmustache93Jun 16, 2017 6:00 PM
 |
rvbrick said: The anime / manga introduces you to the character of Kenshin and the OVA shows you his past and how he changed. It's better to get to know a character first to be interested in his or her's past.Not sure why there's so many replies mentioning having to watch the manga or TV series to appreciate Trust and Betrayal. I feel like it's just an excuse to not make a good argument as to why anyone wouldn't like it. |
|
DrGeroCreation said: rvbrick said: The anime / manga introduces you to the character of Kenshin and the OVA shows you his past and how he changed. It's better to get to know a character first to be interested in his or her's past.Not sure why there's so many replies mentioning having to watch the manga or TV series to appreciate Trust and Betrayal. I feel like it's just an excuse to not make a good argument as to why anyone wouldn't like it. yeah that was the point I think most of us were trying to make rather than to convince him to change his mind on Trust and Betrayal not being bad The closest thing I can think of is the Monogatari series you should watch it in a certain order (Broadcast order) to get the most of it |
DrGeroCreation said: rvbrick said: The anime / manga introduces you to the character of Kenshin and the OVA shows you his past and how he changed. It's better to get to know a character first to be interested in his or her's past.Not sure why there's so many replies mentioning having to watch the manga or TV series to appreciate Trust and Betrayal. I feel like it's just an excuse to not make a good argument as to why anyone wouldn't like it. well,I've watched the ova before the tv series and enjoyed the ova so much and it became one of my favourites. while the tv series has turned me off and I dropped it after 6 episodes,you don't need to watch the series to enjoy this ova it stands alone very well |
| |
ampd said: Yeah Trust and Betrayal is good standalone but better as a companion to the anime and manga. The best order to me is to watch the anime up to Kyoto arc, watch Trust and Betrayal and then read Jinchuu arc in the manga.DrGeroCreation said: The anime / manga introduces you to the character of Kenshin and the OVA shows you his past and how he changed. It's better to get to know a character first to be interested in his or her's past. yeah that was the point I think most of us were trying to make rather than to convince him to change his mind on Trust and Betrayal not being bad The closest thing I can think of is the Monogatari series you should watch it in a certain order (Broadcast order) to get the most of it @bigmustache93 You should have watched the tv series first then the OVA. The OVA is like a companion piece or treat for the fans of the anime /manga. True you don't need to watch the series to enjoy the OVA standalone but already being a fan and having already watched/ read the anime / manga greatly enhances the experience imo. |
DrGeroCreationJun 16, 2017 6:30 PM
|
DrGeroCreation said: ampd said: Yeah Trust and Betrayal is good standalone but better as a companion to the anime and manga. The best order to me is to watch the anime up to Kyoto arc, watch Trust and Betrayal and then read Jinchuu arc in the manga.yeah that was the point I think most of us were trying to make rather than to convince him to change his mind on Trust and Betrayal not being bad The closest thing I can think of is the Monogatari series you should watch it in a certain order (Broadcast order) to get the most of it @bigmustache93 You should have watched the tv series first then the OVA. The OVA is like a companion piece or treat for the fans of the anime /manga. True you don't need to watch the series to enjoy the OVA standalone but already being a fan and having already watched/ read the anime / manga greatly enhances the experience imo. What I'm having trouble with here is imagining my perception of the Kenshin manga/anime/franchise had I seen the OVA first. Seeing the anime first when I was 10 on Toonami no doubt changed my perspective on the series, but had I seen T&B back then and seen the OVA at the time I saw it (about two years ago), I have no clue how I'd feel about any of it, but I cannot imagine it being exactly the same. On a side note, I saw Reflections before T&B by mistake, and I really do question if that could have altered how I viewed/reacted to T&B. |
| It's better when taken in as part of the franchise. It's a prequel to Rurouni Kenshin, so you're supossed to know what Kenshin's character is like in the series beforehand and the prequel is supposed to show you what he was like as Batosai the Man-slayer which is a huge contrast. It also shows you events that led to him deciding to change himself and atone for what he did in the past. |
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97"  |
FP_SagaS said: ampd said: Have you already watched the rurouni kenshin anime series which 94 episode long first. I'm assuming you haven't because if you didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't see why you would seek out Trust and betrayal (the OVA) let alone finish a "long" series. Not taking a shot I just feel most people would enjoy trust and betrayal once they've gotten to know kenshin in the anime. Then we get to see the contrast in his personalities. maybe, you have seen the main anime and didn't like it which is it cool, cause I feel the same about cowboy bebop/angel beats which are considered classic. My only issue would be the statement of the dialogue, its an anime made in the late 90s so Im not sure how you could fault that on the anime. Most people told me i don't need to watch the series to understand this OVA, it should stand on its own. Also yes i could fault it for its dialogue, time has nothing to do with that. I believe in the late 90s that dialogue was already kind of cliche. That's a faulty argument. You can watch Mushishi Suzu OVA on its own, but it would be a different experience if you didn't watch the anime first hand. |
| I don't entirely disagree with you because I wasn't nearly as impressed the second time around. That said, complex storylines and 3D characters weren't the point (short running time didn't help either) - it was more style over substance. It had a very somber and meditative tone that really worked though, art and animation were fantastic, and the OST was beautiful. |
| Moved from Anime Discussion Shocked said: I first watched Rurouni Kenshin when I was a kid. It was one of the first anime I've watched, long before I even knew what anime was. Later in my life, I rewatched the entire TV series and looked into the manga, so I know the story. However, it's been a long time since then, so I've forgotten most of the finer details. I've never watched Trust and Betrayal, but I knew what would happen going in. When I first joined MAL, this OVA was one of the higher ranked shows, but since I knew Rurouni Kenshin quite well, I didn't want to watch it right away. Instead, I waited. 5 years later, here I am, reminded of why I used to like Rurouni Kenshin. No, I still like it, and this just affirmed it. Had I entered this OVA without prior knowledge, it would have been a drama. As I am now, it's a tragedy. Rather than watching in wait for what would come next, I'm instead looking on, knowing of the inevitable events to befall Kenshin. It makes me wonder if this is nostalgia speaking, but at least for now, all I can do is fill in the gaps of my memory. I recall when Kenshin was following Tomoe at the end, he remarked in the television series that the assassins appearing would save him the trouble of hunting them down. Here, he makes no such remark. He didn't have any such malice. Kenshin was just broken. Perhaps I'm remembering things differently, who knows. Those were my thoughts two years ago, and I think it still holds true. It's still akin to a cinematic experience which breaks down a familiar character and explores his history, letting this flashback inform his future self and our own understanding of his personality. Rather than bland and predictable, I interpret the OVA as understated and inevitable. Having watched the series first, which also featured the same story, it was already known as to how Kenshin would end up. As a result, it becomes not a work of twists and surprises, but of tragedy where you already know there's no happy ending for the samurai. All you can do is watch and wait for that inevitability. |
| Because it's an amazing story while not necessarily complex that tells the story of a young man plunge into the world of chaos. It has amazing characterization that fits the narrative and the historical upheaval that goes into this time. From it's amazing animation, and absolute atmospheric gritty tone of the show and an OST that fits perfectly, no other anime from past and future captures the beauty and the destructive tone of the end of the samurai era that it displays here. This why a lot of people think this a masterpiece and one of the best if not the best OVA of all time. Also saying that this OVA is style over substance is complete utter bullshit(which is already a some of posts in this thread). Another thing this OVA does well was it's subtle character development and the down to earth relationship of Tomoe and Kenshin and it's turmoil and desturction from episode 4. That is why "Trust and Betrayal" is a perfect name for this OVA. I think it's adorable how you think this is boring yet you think Mushishi is so artistic when a lot of it's episodes is the epitome of boring where only quite a handful worked really, really well. But hey opinions are like assholes right? |
RedgraveGilverJun 21, 2017 4:03 PM
RedgraveGilver said: Because it's an amazing story while not necessarily complex that tells the story of a young man plunge into the world of chaos. It has amazing characterization that fits the narrative and the historical upheaval that goes into this time. From it's amazing animation, and absolute atmospheric gritty tone of the show and an OST that fits perfectly, no other anime from past and future captures the beauty and the destructive tone of the end of the samurai era that it displays here. This why a lot of people think this a masterpiece and one of the best if not the best OVA of all time. Also saying that this OVA is style over substance is complete utter bullshit(which is already a lot of in this thread). Another thing this OVA does well was it's subtle character development and the down to earth relationship of Tomoe and Kenshin and it's turmoil and destruction from episode 4. That is why "Trust and Betrayal" is a perfect name for this OVA. I don't know what you call subtle development but kenshin stayed exactly the same through the entire series. Tomoe and Kenshin don't feel like a romantic couple, they feel like dry crackers. They don't make jokes, have fun or laugh or anything that would make them appear human, sometimes they cry yes but thats about it, that's not enough. I don't see that as normal or even good development, even if characters are silent or mourning they still need to have quips or other personality traits. If they don't show any emotion why should i care. Take a look at Guts from Berserk, in the beginning he is silent and alone. But after a while he warms up to the band of the hawk, treats them like friends, you can see he's opening up in all sorts of ways, how he treats the other members and how he drops his guard. Sometimes he's even talking philosophy with some of the members. But in the end Guts is betrayed, why do we care? Because we saw Guts caring for the people that betrayed him. And this isn't even done in a cheesy way, it's also subtle. Plotwise, yes simplicity can sometimes even be better than complexity. In Kenshin's case that doesn't work because the plot floats somewhere in between meditating and just sometimes difficult enough to get lost in. Its somewhere in between that, like the director cant make up his mind on what direction it needs to go towards. It's a mix between something like Mushishi and Stand alone Complex but it ends up being neither. Sure the scenery is pretty but it's not capitalized enough to be what Mushishi was. The politics are interesting but not interesting enough to be what Stand Alone Complex was. It's like what mirai nikki tried to do by blending all sorts of elements and themes together, it ended up colliding creating an entire mess. Trust and Betrayal are important emotions, human emotions. Its sad that this show lacks any of that, it ended up being a mediocre ride at best. |
MangoSamuraiJun 21, 2017 4:10 PM
| >I don't know what you call subtle development but kenshin stayed exactly the same through the entire series. Tomoe and Kenshin don't feel like a romantic couple, they feel like dry crackers. They don't make jokes, have fun or laugh or anything that would make them appear human, sometimes they cry yes but thats about it, that's not enough. I don't see that as normal or even good development, even if characters are silent or mourning they still need to have quips or other personality traits. If they don't show any emotion why should i care. Uhhh, if you payed attention they have been forced into this marriage. You can't exactly expect them to go into what you just described which completely unrealistic. What I meant was subtle is despite that their relationship being awkward at first, they began to respect each other even in the end. Honestly what do you expect in this kind of development? Them dancing and singing kumbaya? It doesn't fit the tone, the atmosphere of the show and the show handled it well terms of it's tone and atmosphere. >Take a look at Guts from Berserk, in the beginning he is silent and alone. But after a while he warms up to the band of the hawk, treats them like friends, you can see he's opening up. In the end Guts is betrayed, why do we care? Because we saw Guts caring. And this isn't even done in a cheesy way, it's also subtle. Again pay attention. Kenshin at first wasn't open to Tomoe and was also quite cold to her. Now at episode 2 he also started to open to her even started to join drinking sake with her when Tomoe asked him. Does that something Kenshin would do during the beginning? >In Kenshin's case that doesn't work because the plot floats somewhere in between meditating and just sometimes difficult enough to get lost in. Its somewhere in between that, like the director cant make up his mind on what direction it needs to go towards. It's a mix between something like Mushishi and Stand alone Complex but it ends up being neither. Sure the scenery is pretty but it's not capitalized enough to be what Mushishi was. The politics are interesting but not interesting enough to be what Stand Alone Complex was. I'm not really quite sure what you mean here. The politics and the upheaval is obviously here, but it serves as backdrop not the main focus. Comparing this to stand alone complex is false equivalence at best(Because for one, this is an actual historical upheavel). Also again you're comparing a way different show like Mushishi, which focus more on immersion in things like the lore to this, which is a historical tragedy. Of course it wouldn't focus on the scenery. >It's like what mirai nikki tried to do by blending all sorts of elements and themes together, it ended up colliding creating an entire mess. This is funny lol. This is nowhere a mess. You said it yourself that the story is quite simple yet you somehow think it's a mess. It's a mix of romance, tragedy, action and historical backdrop. What the hell is the mess here? It's the perfect themes that completely fits a narrative like in this genre. >Trust and Betrayal are important emotions, human emotions. Its sad that this show lacks any of that, it ended up being a mediocre ride at best. Except it is for me and to a a lot of people and that why it's one of the highest rated OVA of all time. Then again if you feel that way since emotions are such a subjective thing anyway then you're free to do so lol |
RedgraveGilverJun 21, 2017 4:24 PM
| >Uhhh, if you payed attention they have been forced into this marriage. You can't exactly expect them to go into what you just described which completely unrealistic. What I meant was subtle is despite that their relationship being awkward at first, they began to respect each other even in the end. Honestly what do you expect in this kind of development? Them dancing and singing kumbaya? It doesn't fit the tone, the atmosphere of the show and the show handled it well terms of it's tone and atmosphere. What do i expect? personality like i said, even in shows that are dark in nature like Berserk which i mentioned before it's still important that a character to feel like you could interact with them for real. Guts is forced to join the Band of the Hawk too but he learns that the people there are nice, they begin to talk and like each others company. In Kenshin it's just kinda awkward and slow, we don't learn Kenshin's true personally or we don't get something out of it. Kenshin stayed the same as he was in the beginning so where is this show good for then? >Again pay attention. Kenshin at first wasn't open to Tomoe and was also quite cold to her. Now at episode 2 he also started to open to her even started to join drinking sake with her when Tomoe asked him. Does that something Kenshin would do during the beginning? They talk like an old married couple with cliche dialogue, people don't sound like that. Kenshin drinking sake isn't enough of a big development for a 2 hour show. >I'm not really quite sure what you mean here. The politics and the upheaval is obviously here, but it serves as backdrop not the main focus. Comparing this to stand alone complex is false equivalence at best. Also again you're comparing a way different show like Mushishi, which focus more on immersion in things like the lore to this, which is a historical tragedy. My exact point is that even if the politics are there to be a backdrop, let it be a backdrop. The show explained too much of it for no reason. Therefore you don't get that tone that mushishi has, that thick atmosphere. Like i said, it's somewhere in the middle. >This is funny lol. This is nowhere a mess. You said it yourself that the story is quite simple yet you somehow think it's a mess. It's a mix of romance, tragedy, action and historical backdrop. What the hell is the mess here? It's the perfect themes that completely fits a narrative like in this genre. My point is its pacing and focus are all over the place. Yes there is romance, politics and such but time is given to the things that don't matter and no time is given to the things that should matter. No sense of pace and style overall, just mostly cliche scenes stuck together. >Except it is for me and to a a lot of people and that why it's one of the highest rated OVA of all time. Then again if you feel that way since emotions are such a subjective thing anyway then you're free to do so lol if people seriously cried at the end of the show i am really wondering what other shows they have watched to have such a low standard. Probably the contrast between the tv show and this OVA shocked them, it's suddenly dark and mature so it must be good. It was the same situation with Madoka when it first started airing. |
| >What do i expect? personality like i said, even in shows that are dark in nature like Berserk which i mentioned before it's still important that a character to feel like you could interact with them for real. Guts is forced to join the Band of the Hawk too but he learns that the people there are nice, they begin to talk and like each others company. In Kenshin it's just kinda awkward and slow, we don't learn Kenshin's true personally or we don't get something out of it. We don't learn Kenshin's true personality? It's like you completely skipped the whole Hiko Seijuro/Kenshin argument segment. You can see his personality there when he was an adolescent. He's a kid who wants to save people. He basically wanted to be a hero because of his failure to protect the traders he was in when they got massacred. Then that got all buried when he became an Assassin. His emotions got buried due this line of work. It's a great portrayal of what happens when a human being is doing this despicable job but deep inside doesn't like it. >Kenshin stayed the same as he was in the beginning so where is this show good for then? Absolutely false. Watch the sequel anime or read the manga. That's the entire evidence. If it's not convincing for you, then Kenshin still has to stay to his assassin persona until the end of the revolution because it needed to be. >They talk like an old married couple with cliche dialogue, people don't sound like that. Kenshin drinking sake isn't enough of a big development for a 2 hour show. During those times in Japan, a 15 year old is already considered to be mature and an adult. In these times especially in turbulent times, you're forced to mature or at least in a way of not normal means. Kenshin and Tomoe aren't exactly the most expressive out there if it's not too obvious. One is an Assassin and one is a widowed who is still in mourning. They were forced into a marriage, Tomoe knows that it's Kenshin who killed Kiyosato. It's not exactly a happy relationship at first and you don't but they still grew to love and respect each other. Oh, nothing special about the dialogue but it's not cliche either. You're literally just using buzzwords. >My exact point is that even if the politics are there to be a backdrop, let it be a backdrop. The show explained too much of it for no reason. Therefore you don't get that tone that mushishi has, that thick atmosphere. Like i said, it's somewhere in the middle. But it is in the middle and it is the backdrop. Like did you really pay attention? It's not like the whole show focused on Katsura and Shinsaku scheming and politiking. It still focuses on Kenshin and his relationship with tomoe as a whole. Being a backdrop doesn't mean just being there. It can be also be used as a motivation, and the whole revolution was one of Kenshin's motivations and the reason he became an assassin in the first place. This is pointless criticism. >My point is its pacing and focus are all over the place. Yes there is romance, politics and such but time is given to the things that don't matter and no time is given to the things that should matter. No sense of pace and style overall, just mostly cliche scenes stuck together. I give you about the pacing. It can be draggy at times. But it's not just cliche scenes stuck together. This just another boring/pointless criticism from I have been seeing from you. I mean you're literally complaining a fucking show from 1998 to be cliche(when it's really not though) when it's amazing animation and a lot of choreography makes up for it. >if people seriously cried at the end of the show i am really wondering what other shows they have watched to have such a low standard. Probably the contrast between the tv show and this OVA shocked them, it's suddenly dark and mature so it must be good. It was the same situation with Madoka when it first started airing. Ah of course, sooner or later you're gonna go in this way. "Oh, I'm so better than everyone! Everyone is just an idiot and watching low standard shit!! REEEEEEEE!!". Madoka has recently came in 2011. I don't care about people's opinion on that show. From what I have seen a lot of people like it. It's a good show but I'm not terribly fond of. Meanwhile, this Trust and Betryal has been out since 1999. It has been 19 years and people still think it's amazing. It's a testament to it's quality. So please, just because you're one of the few who disliked the OVA and your hispsterism is showing up doesn't mean you're so much better. So get your head out of your ass. There are already people in this thread who posted why they liked it and somehow you think it's just because it's dark and gritty LOL |
| > We don't learn Kenshin's true personality? It's like you completely skipped the whole Hiko Seijuro/Kenshin argument segment. You can see his personality there when he was an adolescent. He's a kid who wants to save people. He basically wanted to be a hero because of his failure to protect the traders he was in when they got massacred. Then that got all buried when he became an Assassin. His emotions got buried due this line of work. It's a great portrayal of what happens when a human being is doing this despicable job but deep inside doesn't like it. Its cliche, it's the emotionless killer trope and has been done to death. There is nothing about it that makes Kenshin stand out compared to any of his type. > Absolutely false. Watch the sequel anime or read the manga. That's the entire evidence. If it's not convincing for you, then Kenshin still has to stay to his assassin persona until the end of the revolution because it needed to be. The anime and manga is completely different in tone, it's almost incomparable. if they want to show change they need to show that in this OVA and not what comes after it. > But it is in the middle and it is the backdrop. Like did you really pay attention? It's not like the whole show focused on Katsura and Shinsaku scheming and politiking. It still focuses on Kenshin and his relationship with tomoe as a whole. Being a backdrop doesn't mean just being there. It can be also be used as a motivation, and the whole revolution was one of Kenshin's motivations and the reason he became an assassin in the first place. This is pointless criticism. No it isn't, like i said. The politics would've been interesting if they pulled more focus towards it, the relationship between Kenshin and Tomoe would've been more interesting if they pulled more focus towards it. In the end they're both just done half assed. That is what i'm trying to say. The fact that Kenshin motivation is partly because of the revolution doesnt make that better > I give you about the pacing. It can be draggy at times. But it's not just cliche scenes stuck together. This just another boring/pointless criticism from I have been seeing from you. I mean you're literally complaining a fucking show from 1998 to be cliche(when it's really not though) when it's amazing animation and a lot of choreography makes up for it. Tell me what about this OVA isn't cliche, cardboard cutout love story, with boring philosophical quotes and some revolution going on in the background. Someone betrays Kenshin and he is on his own again? It being from 1998 doesn't excuse anything, Bebop isn't cliche, Berserk isn't cliche, Ghost in the Shell isn't cliche. Also yes i agree it has fantastic animation but if it doesn't do anything with it in the story department it falls flat. Like Hibike season 2 which had gorgeous animation but ended up accomplishing nothing and completely forgettable in the end. > Ah of course, sooner or later you're gonna go in this way. "Oh, I'm so better than everyone! Everyone is just an idiot and watching low standard shit!! REEEEEEEE!!". Madoka has recently came in 2011. I don't care about people's opinion on that show. From what I have seen a lot of people like it. It's a good show but I'm not terribly fond of. Meanwhile, this Trust and Betryal has been out since 1999. It has been 19 years and people still think it's amazing. It's a testament to it's quality. So please, just because you're one of the few who disliked the OVA and your hispsterism is showing up doesn't mean you're so much better. So get your head out of your ass. There are already people in this thread who posted why they liked it and somehow you think it's just because it's dark and gritty LOL Did i hit a nerve there? No i don't think i'm smarter than anyone else. I just see a trend, dark shows tend to be rated higher because people think bloodshed means maturity. You see this shit everywhere, same with Tokyo Ghoul and Kara no Kyoukai. Also i think Madoka will in 19 years also be something people look back on like it's a classic too. But a classic doesn't mean it's good (especially in Madoka's case), the fact that it won against time doesn't make it good. It just means it's popular and that enough people who watched it. Trust and Betrayal is nothing but some gritty drawn out boring cliche story with good animation and fight choreography from time to time, what else does it have going for it? Please tell me in detail. You should know because it's your favorite anime. Also im not the only one to think this, take a look https://youtu.be/XiEx2AjDajc?t=68. Most of his points are more than valid. |
| >Its cliche, it's the emotionless killer trope and has been done to death. There is nothing about it that makes Kenshin stand out compared to any of his type. Except it was done in anime where it's at least believable, realistic and a great representation of the era it was in. It wasn't even done in anime before and even if you compare it to other medium, it's still amazing well done. Saying it was cliche is like saying that Samurai are cliche. You don't know jackshit about what is cliche and what is not. >The anime and manga is completely different in tone, it's almost incomparable. if they want to show change they need to show that in this OVA and not what comes after it. It's different in tone because the dark atmosphere completely fits the narrative that Watsuki was trying to do. This isn't even a worthy complaint. >No it isn't, like i said. The politics would've been interesting if they pulled more focus towards it, the relationship between Kenshin and Tomoe would've been more interesting if they pulled more focus towards it. In the end they're both just done half assed. That is what i'm trying to say. The fact that Kenshin motivation is partly because of the revolution doesnt make that better The focus on politics and the era is just enough. Making it completely the focus of the show would completely missed the point of showing Kenshin's past and inner struggle as an Assassin and also making the revolution as a backdrop does makes it better because it isn't just some normal backdrfop and it does SHOWS how the revolution affected Kenshin's character. >Tell me what about this OVA isn't cliche, cardboard cutout love story, with boring philosophical quotes and some revolution going on in the background. Someone betrays Kenshin and he is on his own again? It being from 1998 doesn't excuse anything, Bebop isn't cliche, Berserk isn't cliche, Ghost in the Shell isn't cliche. Also yes i agree it has fantastic animation but if it doesn't do anything with it in the story department it falls flat. Like Hibike season 2 which had gorgeous animation but ended up accomplishing nothing and completely forgettable in the end. A character study and this kind of presentation of an Assassin/Samurai in the Meiji Revolution, the end of samurai era hasn't been done and in such a way before in anime. So no it's not cliche. You're literally grasping at straws just to prove your shitty point. >Did i hit a nerve there? No i don't think i'm smarter than anyone else. I just see a trend, dark shows tend to be rated higher because people think bloodshed means maturity. You see this shit everywhere, same with Tokyo Ghoul and Kara no Kyoukai. Also i think Madoka will in 19 years also be something people look back on like it's a classic too. lol I think it's adorable how you suddenly goes back that you don't think you're smarter than anyone else. See, some of us have no problem admitting when something just doesn't click. Something you just can't do. My failure to be fully invested into something like Mushishi doesn't mean I need to question the people it's appeal or second guess their motivation. I'm almost 100% certain that that anime legitimately speaks to people, so the mentality behind writing off the emotional appeal of any kind of fiction is frankly retarded. Something you just did with your previous post. Some people including in this thread including me told you why we like it and here you are just completely ignoring those pretending that we like it just because it's gritty or dark. > But a classic doesn't mean it's good (especially in Madoka's case), the fact that it won against time doesn't make it good. It just means it's popular and that enough people who watched it. Trust and Betrayal is nothing but some gritty drawn out boring cliche story with good animation and fight choreography from time to time, what else does it have going for it? Please tell me in detail. You should know because it's your favorite anime. Also im not the only one to think this, take a look https://youtu.be/XiEx2AjDajc?t=68. Most of his points are more than valid. clas·sic ˈklasik/Submit adjective 1. judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind. 2. noun 1. a work of art of recognized and established value. This is too funny. You're literally making up your own definition of what is a classic. The mental gymnastics that you're trying to do is astounding not to mention the fact that you're acting as if you're the arbiter of what make a good anime is. This is just too adorable. Oh, and I told you why I think it's a great anime but you're too convinced with your juvenile arguments in your delusional head so you probably just ignored most of what I'm saying. Oh, and Bob Samurai has always been a mediocre reviewer. Always has been since watching his videos since 2010. Also if you want a video describing why Trust and Betrayal was so good then watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onNHZ8QrfDc&t=786s Better presentation, better analysis, better reviewer overall. But then again I'm sure you're just gonna ignore everything that he said and just convince yourself you're the arbiter of what makes quality anime. It's like talking to a wall so it's really kind of pointless. |
RedgraveGilverJun 22, 2017 3:26 AM
| > Except it was done in anime where it's at least believable, realistic and a great representation of the era it was in. So i am supposed to believe that people in the samurai era never smiled or showed any emotion besides crying? >It wasn't even done in anime before and even if you compare it to other medium, it's still amazing well done. Saying it was cliche is like saying that Samurai are cliche. You don't know jackshit about what is cliche and what is not. What is amazingly well done? Im just really curious cause i don't see it. Cliche is something that means it's been done before, here i'm not talking about Samurai, im talking about the way they use philosophy and dialogue. That has been done before, that type of speech and that type of story, the emotionless hero has been done before. This OVA just merges it with Samurai, and guess what, that doesn't make it better. >It's different in tone because the dark atmosphere completely fits the narrative that Watsuki was trying to do. This isn't even a worthy complaint. Like i said, dark atmosphere is okay, problem is that the Kenshin in the OVA is not the same as in the tv series. Since they are so different you can't compare the personality of Kenshin in the OVA and the TV series as a continuum. > The focus on politics and the era is just enough. Making it completely the focus of the show would completely missed the point of showing Kenshin's past and inner struggle as an Assassin and also making the revolution as a backdrop does makes it better because it isn't just some normal backdrfop and it does SHOWS how the revolution affected Kenshin's character. Perfectly reasonable but the problem is that it isn't presented in an interesting way. We don't get a different Kenshin in the beginning and the end, they are essentially the same. So how the revolution affected Kenshin didn't ultimately matter. Also like i said, the way they talk about politics and such is so dry and boring that it isn't investing enough to care. In fact i almost forgot about all of it, until some reviewers mentioned it. It's not significant enough to the actually interesting part, which should've been Kenshin. So it comes off as unnecessary through the entire show. > A character study and this kind of presentation of an Assassin/Samurai in the Meiji Revolution, the end of samurai era hasn't been done and in such a way before in anime. So no it's not cliche. You're literally grasping at straws just to prove your shitty point. You're not proving anything by this, i make points about the show and you just dismiss it by saying it's a character study and something original. Look, the take on the Meiji Revolution might be something anime hasn't done before but that doesn't make it good. This isn't grasping at straws, this is my view and its quite obvious to me, there might be something interesting in there but it's all presented as cliche. The characters are like philosophy textbooks, it might sound cool but a character needs to me more than that. Aside the fact that Kenshin was a emotionless doll and became a less emotionless doll when he met tomoe isn't enough to make a 3 dimensional character. You need more, a lot more than that to create interesting characters. >lol I think it's adorable how you suddenly goes back that you don't think you're smarter than anyone else. See, some of us have no problem admitting when something just doesn't click. Something you just can't do. My failure to be fully invested into something like Mushishi doesn't mean I need to question the people it's appeal or second guess their motivation. I'm almost 100% certain that that anime legitimately speaks to people, so the mentality behind writing off the emotional appeal of any kind of fiction is frankly retarded. Something you just did with your previous post. Some people including in this thread including me told you why we like it and here you are just completely ignoring those pretending that we like it just because it's gritty or dark. Like i said before, i don't think i'm smarter than anyone else. I just don't get the appeal of something. No one here has got a good explanation why this show is supposed to be fantastic. Most people here are saying it has good characterization, a good atmosphere and cool setting which hasn't been done before. Those are just statements, not arguments. Why does Kenshin have good characterization? tell me, because i don't see it. >This is too funny for me. You're literally making up your own definition of what is a classic. The mental gymnastics that you're trying to do is astounding not to mention the fact that you're acting as if you're the arbiter of what make a good anime is. This is just too adorable. Oh, and I told you why I think it's a great anime but you're too convinced with your juvenile arguments in your delusional head so you probably just ignored most of what I'm saying. You're really just a hipster contrarian You and i both know that classic can mean many things because the classifications are kinda vague. We know something is a classic, but when or what it holds are difficult to describe. It's what the most people consider a good show. Even so there are many people who don't like the classics, or even hate them. The people who hate them aren't just wrong just like the people who did like it are right. > Oh, and Bob Samurai has always been a mediocre reviewer. Always has been since watching his video since 2010. Also if you want a video describing why Trust and Betrayal was so good then watch this video: And yet again you make claims about someone without backing it up, seems to be an ongoing motive. You're just mad cause he pisses on your favorite anime. If you can't make any good arguments i'm done okay, then just stop, because i was going to do it in a friendly way. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onNHZ8QrfDc&t=786s Better presentation, better analysis, better reviewer overall. But then again I'm sure you're just gonna ignore everything that he said and just convince yourself you're the arbiter of what makes quality anime. It's like talking to a wall so it's really kind of pointless I've already seen that video and yes i am going to convince myself what i think makes quality anime, why? because that what you should do, its subjective in the end. But seeing your scoring i can see that you just go with what other people are doing, the boring ol' objectively better and trying to have the best undisputed taste route. Quite boring honestly, if you are just stop lying to yourself. |
MangoSamuraiJun 22, 2017 4:13 AM
| I don't mean to sound like a gatekeeper, but i honestly believe that anyone's opinion on this OVA from those who have not watched the original series at all should be deemed worthless. I mean, in theory one could watch this as a stand-alone just fine, since it's a prequel. But it really doesn't work that way, since this "past arc" is revealed only in the final arc of the manga. Trust me, it's pretty much impossible to fully appreciate this story without already having a certain familiarity and understanding of Kenshin's character and his ideals, which you can only get from the series. The stark contrast in tone from what came before and getting to witness the inevitably tragic events that shape the man he will eventually become is what makes this OVA hit so much harder. Those foolishly diving into this first would never understand, and i pity you for robbing yourself of that experience. |
OrororurandoApr 26, 2020 11:44 AM
| A terrible thread. But given that it was posted 3 years ago, I assume OP may have differing opinions now. Regardless, I just want to point out that criticizing a work for being "cliche" doesn't hold much anymore or dare I say, it never did. Ignoring the fact that it was an anime made in the 90's(which would probably make it not unoriginal during its time), there are already so many stories produced since time immemorial till present time that you can't expect one work to not take inspiration from another one. In the end, it all boils down to how a creator manages to make his ideas(whether original or not) work well and the OVA's story did just that, imo. Also, I thought the post was a copypasta lmao because had I seen that in another anime(with similar genre) subforum, I probably would have considered it aimed at that anime too given the vagueness of the criticisms. |
thefreeloader said: Wrong average Kaguya FanA terrible thread. But given that it was posted 3 years ago, I assume OP may have differing opinions now. |
More topics from this board
» Similar tragic romanceyoru987 - Aug 13, 2023 |
7 |
by JoeChip
»»
Dec 30, 2024 10:23 AM |
|
Poll: » Rurouni Kenshin: Tsuiokuhen Episode 1 Discussion ( 1 2 )ManU-Alchemist - Jun 2, 2008 |
76 |
by hikikodokumori
»»
Oct 6, 2024 12:25 PM |
|
Poll: » Rurouni Kenshin: Tsuiokuhen Episode 4 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 )hznu - Sep 16, 2008 |
193 |
by Archean-Return
»»
Aug 13, 2024 12:34 AM |
|
Poll: » Rurouni Kenshin: Tsuiokuhen Episode 3 Discussion ( 1 2 )ManU-Alchemist - Jun 17, 2008 |
57 |
by catmancatplan
»»
Apr 16, 2024 5:23 PM |
|
» Can I finally watch this after seeing the 2023 remake or I have to still see the Kyoto arc?Cestlavie_ - Dec 16, 2023 |
13 |
by LoveLikeBlood
»»
Feb 17, 2024 5:17 AM |