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jay50000 said: But she's is annoying.. -.- Maybe, when she becomes like Ein (without any emotions) I will start to like her XD Because I really don't like to see a happy kid in this anime.i like this ep cal is a true genius whit a gun. i do not understand why all of you like Elen she is a stupid bitch and a slave to sm i hope cal kills her at the end.Claudia is a very smart woman. |
| I'm gonna have to agree with the majority of the people here and say that Cal is really an annoying loli. She's just sucking out everything that this series was. Having Ein and Reiji being assassins was so much better because neither of them wanted it, they didn't have a choice whatsoever, every kill or be killed. The whole thing with Ein was every dark and depressing because she's never recovered her memories and didn't even know her name. Cal being so enthuastic and ready to kill others just annoys me. The girl on the elevator was definitely Elen. Hopefully she'll be back regularly in the next episode so there'll be something to make up for Cal. |
| I'm pretty sure that's Elen. I had a feeling she didn't die back there anyways. She's just too bad ass to be killed off so quickly like that, considering she's a main character. |
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| @Skeptic I still believe that those predictions either came true or are in the process of happening. It threw us all a little off guard since they seem to want to expand the story with a character that completely changes the tone of the series, but it seems to be getting back around to it with Ellen (possibly) showing up at the end of this episode. Overall, I would have to agree with Aeterna's assessment with what's going on in the discussion episodes, and to be fair, this is the least amount of criticism I've seen (or given for that matter) for a series' episode threads. This is mostly because the show doesn't seem to be all that popular, and also because the show was quite interesting up until after episode 5. I will also agree with Aeterna on the bit about the characters, which I've pretty much stated since the first few episodes. It's hard to care about characters who don't care about themselves or the messes they get themselves into. That's why I never liked Ein or SM, and why I was liking Claudia and Reiji when he was actually struggling with his actions. This is also the reason for my disappointment that Claudia's back story was shafted to a recap episode and that Reiji became so comically insane towards the end of the first arc and the beginning of this arc. It is also especially remarkable to me how they seem to have totally gone back on Reiji acting like a total fool and has now kind of gone back to the way he was before we even first saw him on the show with Cal. To me, it has felt like the characters serve only the plot. I don't ever really feel like the characters (besides maybe Claudia) have understood any of their actions. They feel much more like puppets to the narrative than characters living in the moment. |
noteDhero said: @Skeptic I still believe that those predictions either came true or are in the process of happening. It threw us all a little off guard since they seem to want to expand the story with a character that completely changes the tone of the series, but it seems to be getting back around to it with Ellen (possibly) showing up at the end of this episode. Oh for the love of god, wake up and smell the roses. These were the popular predictions that Skeptic listed: 1) "I just know this will wind up being a Romeo and Juliet style choice at the end with Zwei having to pick Elen or Inferno... how predictable!" 2) "I seriously hope it doesn't wind up with Zwei and Elen working together to take out Inferno" 3) Lots of people claiming that Elen and Reiji would face off "in predictable" fashion that would lead to them choosing to love each other instead and run off from the mob/kill the organization. Now take it like a man from someone who knows the source: All these predictions 1-3 were wrong. Not arguably wrong, or maybe still about to take place, but WRONG. Not gonna happen. Nuh-uh. Fact. And it is childish to put the head in the sand and pretend otherwise. This is also the reason for my disappointment that Claudia's back story was shafted to a recap episode and that Reiji became so comically insane towards the end of the first arc and the beginning of this arc. Claudia's story has been told spread over many episodes, mostly in her chats with Reiji and Lizzie, but also the McGuire/Wisemel angle. The backstory from the flashback was only a small part and is still incomplete. It is also especially remarkable to me how they seem to have totally gone back on Reiji acting like a total fool and has now kind of gone back to the way he was before we even first saw him on the show with Cal. His actions were not foolish at all, but rather a case of bad timing leading to a nasty "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. This has been explained before (in case you bother to read what others write). So where do you consider his actions foolish? To me, it has felt like the characters serve only the plot. I don't ever really feel like the characters (besides maybe Claudia) have understood any of their actions. They feel much more like puppets to the narrative than characters living in the moment. It's more like you somehow fail to draw the right conclusions from what the anime shows and are unwilling/unable to accept the additional explanations of those people who happen to know the score fairly well (because the game is over 14 hours long in only one path and take ALOT of time to explain fairly indepth what Reiji's thoughts processes are). So far, the motivations of pretty much _all_ characters are fairly clear and not hard to deduce. Feel free to challenge this to point out in detail where they "don't understand their actions", I'll try to answer this. I believe that this is why Phantom is getting "harped on" that much: We have very stubborn (and not very perceptive and flexible) detractors on one hand, and a couple of people who know the source inside out on the other hand. And it's very vexing for the latter group, particularly when totally bogus nonsense is projected and taken used to diss the show. |
MentarJul 7, 2009 1:32 PM
| hmm I WAS going to put that in a quote, and say something like .. dunno.. lol maybe? but I realized that might get quite long : D so it was pretty long, and I didn't really bother reading the whole thing, but I came to a conclusion anyway, tl;dr less rage, and moar about the positive points, kthnx for listening baibai |
| Protip: I don't really check the forums anymore, so if you want something, take it on my profile. Is it time for my long-awaited return to the forums? щ(ﾟДﾟщ) Nope™, probably not. |
| What about Claudia's story had been told in the first arc outside of the recap? All I remember her doing was seducing Reiji over to her side, talking to him about having choices and the ability to ask questions, and setting up SM. Reiji's foolish actions include: stalking SM at the end of the last arc and all other actions totally out of character with him in the beginning of this arc. If I see a character acting in a way that is contrary to previous actions with no explanation, I see that as foolish. There's no reason for why Reiji could not be acting the way he was before since he seems to have no problem with acting this way now with Cal in the mix. I'm not really going to argue the same things with you as we did last week. I feel like you're able to fill the holes in the story based off of the game, and are unable to see the show through the eyes of someone who is unfamiliar with it. Moreover, because you have a look at the big picture, you are also able to write stuff off as "Oh, well it was obvious anyways, they got the gist of it." |
| @Mentar Mentar said: We have very stubborn (and not very perceptive and flexible) detractors on one hand, and a couple of people who know the source inside out on the other hand. That's just it, though, isn't it? You know the source material. You already know what's going on in each character's head, you know why they're doing certain things, and you know the plot. For those who are like me, we don't know all that. We're going into this blind, knowing nothing. Consequently, I don't see what you see in the characters, their actions, their thoughts, etc. It could be that the anime is simply a poor adaptation of a wonderful game. Also, just because behaviour is explained doesn't mean that it makes logical sense to the viewer. For example, I know the logic behind Reiji's taking in of Cal - originally, to get information about the one who (accidentally?) killed Judy. However, his sticking up for Cal and risking his own life to protect her from Inferno came as a bit of a shock to me. After all, after Ein's "death", we pretty much saw a cold-hearted assassin who didn't care for much. He just does his job and that's that. And, as show in episode 5, he's gone so far that he'll kill a child, younger and more innocent than Cal, for the sake of his job. So why the sudden sympathy in a random girl he met on the street? Is this developed and/or explained better in the game? Because, to me, I haven't really seen enough in the anime to justify Reiji's protective actions for Cal. |
That's just it, though, isn't it? You know the source material. You already know what's going on in each character's head, you know why they're doing certain things, and you know the plot. For those who are like me, we don't know all that. We're going into this blind, knowing nothing. Consequently, I don't see what you see in the characters, their actions, their thoughts, etc. It could be that the anime is simply a poor adaptation of a wonderful game. I did not play the game yet I always found myself agreeing with Mentar and disagreeing with many people here. All is explained well and it isn't hard to guess what characters think and what their reasons were. The problem is that many people here like to make predictions and are 100% sure that they are true (and from my experience by reading these boards, they are usually wrong) so they start imagining themeselves what characters are supposed to think and what they should be doing (if they don't do what they think tehy should do, they are doing something foolish no matter if their actions do make perfect sense looking at Phantom story alone). Almost none of the predictions/theories here were created by analyizing the characters and situation, but by analyizing other anime's of similiar genre and thinking that something similiar is supposed to happen here. However, his sticking up for Cal and risking his own life to protect her from Inferno came as a bit of a shock to me. After all, after Ein's "death", we pretty much saw a cold-hearted assassin who didn't care for much. He just does his job and that's that. And, as show in episode 5, he's gone so far that he'll kill a child, younger and more innocent than Cal, for the sake of his job. So why the sudden sympathy in a random girl he met on the street? Just because he killed a kid and continues to kill without emoing over it, does not mean that he likes it. Reiji does not like his job, he does not like to kill people unless he needs (meaning, unless he is ordered) and as long as they are not targets, he shows sympathy. He lost much because of Inferno, but his sympathy remains. He still highly values human life which is not shows just by his sympathy towards Cal and his sadnes towards Judy's death, but also through the fact that he hates being a Phantom. If he was a kind of person you just described he woudn't hate his current life, ever want to run away with Ellen or lie on the floor saying: "You were right Ellen, I did become like you." His sympathy towards human life is the root of all his actions in zthe series, his feelings and the very reason of his suffering. |
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noteDhero said: Reiji's foolish actions include: stalking SM at the end of the last arc and all other actions totally out of character with him in the beginning of this arc. Wow, and here we go for another EPIC argument between noteDhero and Mentar. It's so sophisticated that my head keeps spinning from reading your comments, but gotta agree with noteDhero on Reiji's "foolish" action at the end of the arc. Maybe I was watching way too mush action anime so I may be harsh in my judgement but no ELITE assassin I've watched until now stalk or play around with their prey. "Killing as fast as possible & not giving the enemy any chance to counter attack" is always a motto of any assassin. You may argue that the producers want more drama by having Reiji stalk his prey, you have a point there but this anime tends to be realistic, remember? & no REAL LIFE assassin would do what Reiji did, a more concrete example of how an ELITE ASSASSIN woud act is Ein, even if I fucking hate her, I gotta admit that her action as a killer were more convincing: Killing without hesitation & fire immediately when a chance arises |
 If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
Aeterna said: So why the sudden sympathy in a random girl he met on the street? Is this developed and/or explained better in the game? Because, to me, I haven't really seen enough in the anime to justify Reiji's protective actions for Cal. The answer is simple and you don't know it? It's cuz Reiji had enough fun with the Milf type Claudia, done playing around with the cold hearted assassin whose he baptized the name Elen so now being a pimp as he is, it should be obvious that he longed for a dynamic, Loli type & Cal perfectly fit the bill so he goes to pimp her, what's wrong with that, people? Hope he aims for Lizzie's ass soon then we'll have a " Fivesome": Cal, Lizzie, Claudia, Ein. LOL |
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
| I think everyone's missing that fact that Reiji's been away from Elen and his secluded emotionless environment for months if not years. He joined Inferno and has been doing odd job assassinations against people that are nothing to him. Not to mention he interacts with people more then hes ever done. This new slow and unmotivated environment doesn't improve Reiji's skill. As you can see he's got more of a personality now. Hes also a bit more full of himself. He's letting his guard down and this is why it looks like he's making careless choices and doing things he would otherwise not have done in the past. I'm sure after his encounter with this "mystery" girl he will start to recognize his change in behavior. With that said I highly doubt he's lost his power of survival though. I'm sure if the situation popped up where he was being hunted down, he would surly kick ass again. The real question is would he be able to protect Cal and Elen in the process. |
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Nayrael said: Just because he killed a kid and continues to kill without emoing over it, does not mean that he likes it. Reiji does not like his job, he does not like to kill people unless he needs (meaning, unless he is ordered) and as long as they are not targets, he shows sympathy. He lost much because of Inferno, but his sympathy remains. He still highly values human life which is not shows just by his sympathy towards Cal and his sadnes towards Judy's death, but also through the fact that he hates being a Phantom. If he was a kind of person you just described he woudn't hate his current life, ever want to run away with Ellen or lie on the floor saying: "You were right Ellen, I did become like you." His sympathy towards human life is the root of all his actions in zthe series, his feelings and the very reason of his suffering. This is it, though. If he's that sympathetic towards human life, why does he continue to be an assassin? It was shown from the first episode that Reiji cares very much for his own life and is willing to fight others in order to survive. I assume that was why he's carried on for so long as he has and why he had to kill that kid way back when. However, when it comes to Cal, he's literally putting both their lives on the line just to protect her when it would be much easier to just get the necessary information from her and then have her killed. He's made a huge gamble in making the decision to train her as the next Phantom-assistant. To me, it seemed to go against the character he was being portrayed as since this new arc began. abrasicu said: Aeterna said: So why the sudden sympathy in a random girl he met on the street? Is this developed and/or explained better in the game? Because, to me, I haven't really seen enough in the anime to justify Reiji's protective actions for Cal. The answer is simple and you don't know it? It's cuz Reiji had enough fun with the Milf type Claudia, done playing around with the cold hearted assassin whose he baptized the name Elen so now being a pimp as he is, it should be obvious that he longed for a dynamic, Loli type & Cal perfectly fit the bill so he goes to pimp her, what's wrong with that, people? Hope he aims for Lizzie's ass soon then we'll have a " Fivesome": Cal, Lizzie, Claudia, Ein. LOL LOL That would be an, er, epic fivesome? XD That totally explains everything. |
| PRETTY OBVIOUS WHATS GONNA HAPPEN PEOPLE NO NEED TO DISCUSS! its gonna be a cliche triangle. reiji misses elen goes emo, shes actually alive and after he trains CAL she wants revenge on ELEN and hes gonna be torn apart. In the end hes gonna lose someone either way and blop THE END. or if you're like me, you'd make all 3 of them die just so nobody is favored and everyone is either satisfied or dissatisfied equally LOL |
dajjasheek88 said: PRETTY OBVIOUS WHATS GONNA HAPPEN PEOPLE NO NEED TO DISCUSS! its gonna be a cliche triangle. reiji misses elen goes emo, shes actually alive and after he trains CAL she wants revenge on ELEN and hes gonna be torn apart. In the end hes gonna lose someone either way and blop THE END. or if you're like me, you'd make all 3 of them die just so nobody is favored and everyone is either satisfied or dissatisfied equally LOL No, you're WRROOONNNGGG!!!! Need me to tell you what's wrong? Cal will indeed want revenge on Elen; but Reiji will shield himself to protect Elen while bull shitting sweet word to Cal, seeing how he's a pimp lately, teaching her the power of love that can overcome hatred. Then Reiji will take Cal & Elen's hand & take them to Claudia's apartment. Lastly, he will give a call to Lizzie to tell her to wear some thongs & bring some Pizza Hut along so that together they can enjoy a steamy hot fivesome all night long. THE END, how's that ? |
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
Wow, and here we go for another EPIC argument between noteDhero and Mentar. It's so sophisticated that my head keeps spinning from reading your comments, but gotta agree with noteDhero on Reiji's "foolish" action at the end of the arc. Maybe I was watching way too mush action anime so I may be harsh in my judgement but no ELITE assassin I've watched until now stalk or play around with their prey. Reiji got into a mental crysis it seems. He wasn't a pro assasin at that point, he became a phychopat. In other words, he was broken in that scene. His hatred towards SM took the better of him. This is it, though. If he's that sympathetic towards human life, why does he continue to be an assassin? It was shown from the first episode that Reiji cares very much for his own life and is willing to fight others in order to survive. I assume that was why he's carried on for so long as he has and why he had to kill that kid way back when. However, when it comes to Cal, he's literally putting both their lives on the line just to protect her when it would be much easier to just get the necessary information from her and then have her killed. He's made a huge gamble in making the decision to train her as the next Phantom-assistant. To me, it seemed to go against the character he was being portrayed as since this new arc began. He considers Cal a friend. In other words, he values Cal's life much more then he value's that random kid's life thus he will try to protect her even if his life is at danger. Also, he sees Cal is himself now. She is a girl that had misfortune to end up geting destiny to be an assasin. Thus he may feel even greater wish to save her. |
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| Good episode. The show has definitely recovered from ep. 12. Interesting to watch the changes in Cal... I'm pretty sure she's not going to stay a simple "loli assassin" for long. |
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| Cal rocks, the Eastwood line had me cracking up. Very nice episode, good to see Eren show up again. Though I thought they'd take their time with her. Claudio sure knows how to use her own weapons, heh. Looking forward to the next ep already. [edit]: Ara? Where's Zeino's bitchy post? lmao |
cyruzJul 9, 2009 12:59 PM
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| I had almost forgotten how good this show was until i found this EP on my harddrive. Hope ep 15 comes soon =) |
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Ximinez said: Let's move action to Italy and call it Noir 2. I don't remember Noir taking place in Italy. And Corsica is not part of Italy. :P |
| Corsica is an island who belong to france :) but thats not the point i think that ein and zwai will become enemies indirectly i want them to kiss and make up but dont forget this is a drama and one of them dies in the end :(( |
I`M A MURDERER |
Ximinez said: It happened: loli with a gun -_-. Next episode: silver pocketwatch. Let's move action to Italy and call it Noir 2. If not Elen, I'd drop this series. first of all Noir is set in France (mostly) second i don't remember having any loli assassin there, the youngest ( i guess) Kirika is still not bloody eleven like Cal, and if Kiri is loli then Ein/Ellen is as well cause she's her rip off XD (well, at least partially) anyway, i love this series, plot is absolutely amazing, and i love both leading characters, (well i hope Ellen will be back as a lead character), i knew she wouldn't die. The only illogical thing so far for me is Zwei's/ Reiji's being alive after this 4 shots and not having any explanation for this. Im not sure for Cal yet, she doesnt annoy me as much as most people it seems, but i still prefered having Ein/Ellen. Cant wait for 15th ep, which was aired yesterday, so maybe we'll get it subbed later today or tomorrow ;] |
| What I feared finally had to happen: Ein's improbable comeback... Apart from that, it was a great episode, and Cal is growing to be a quite interesting character. Good direction and rythm too. |
 In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same. |
| Overall, boring episode. UNTIL the elevator scene. EIN(ELEN)! I'm 100% sure that's her. I knew she wouldn't die that easily. I'm so stoked. I can't wait for the next episode! :D |
| All am gone a say is that i liked the episode. For me it was one of the best episodes. |
| No way.. So, she is still alive.. |
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kerobear said: It is Ein, 100 % sure! woo.. Reiji appears TO not" care" as much anymore, according to the warehouse scene, where he picks up the bullet. he throws it away without hesitating which really dissapoints me. He didn;t go like OHH EREN i miss you. Yeah sorry* im fangirling_D hehe.. my thoughts exactly ^^ |
soulelleJul 11, 2009 10:21 AM
| and they meet !! woo~ |
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| Stop calling Cal Loli. Loli is a little girl displayed in a very erotic fashion in adult entertainment. It's just as annoying as people who throw buzz words like Moe and Cannon Rape around. |
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ShadowAlex said: .Stop calling Cal Loli. Loli is a little girl displayed in a very erotic fashion in adult entertainment. It's just as annoying as people who throw buzz words like Moe and Cannon Rape around. Well, what do we should call her then? Pedobear's lover? Little-girl-who-looks-more-young-than-her-age? You do know not every single Japanese weird stuffs have a counterpart word in English, right? Dont blame you though since there're too much wapanese weirdos who keep shouting their wapanese like "SUKI", "SUGOI"... when they could pretty well say those in English, unless they are too dumb to know it... |
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
| Got to be Ein. Haha of course, Cal is pretty good at using a gun... |
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| Play "Phantom of Inferno" and you'll notice the the entire story is closely following the original game story. Falatorx said: I doubt we're that lucky, but hopefully Reiji will get rid of Cal for the return of Elen. Cal is just plain annoying with her da niro imitations and loliness. It is sucking the seriousness out of the show. Of course the best moment was the possible encounter with elen. The rest, not so much. Supposedly he has to train Cal in to phantom loli edition asap before they find out it is all a scam, but there is no sense of urgency. Claudia is up to her schemes again. While the training itself lacked the quality of Reiji's training, i liked the touch of going back to where he was trained. Overall, the 2nd story arc is finally starting to pick up a bit, but i have a feeling that the end result is likely to be predictable and unwanted. I'm guessing something along the lines of him having to choose between cal and elen, with him picking cal. Elen probably dying for real this time, if not killed by him, then killed by cal. Sounds like a pretty lame situation though so hopefully it won't come to pass. |
| Sore wa himitsu desu. |
| Well, Muroto gets filleted in room 917 as expected. A ghost from the past? :) Too bad Cal didn't do the Deniro move with sideways action as in the game... |
| Sore wa himitsu desu. |
I liked the De Niro reference and Cal is growing on me as a character although I would not be as a hitman with a kid like her.  My prediciton of Claudia being a bitch are here:  Gun practice was cool but I would not teach Cal about it but more teach about explosives. Kira01 said: No way.. So, she is still alive.. YEAH SHE IS ALIVE! Ein! |
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| Elen is back, this series has just regained its awesomeness =). |
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| it is possible that elen is back! thats good!Xd |
| Alot of people complaint about Cal ... The beauty of Cal's character is her innocence, and Reiji is trying his best to keep it that way. (As he knows what's going to happen to the girl if she really walk down the path) If I'm a smoker(Thank god I'm not) who damaged my lungs, I'd never let my children go near a cigarette, as simple as that. ^_^ I really wish to see Cal in her first assignment, her transformation from an innocent girl into a cold-blooded killer will definitely be more dramatic then what Zwei went through. |
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| was it Elen? |
| OH YES, ELEN IN THE ELEVATOR BABY! Old Phantom is back. Too bad Reiji looks more awesome as a Phantom. Freaking Claudia. Didn't know she'd become a slut just to get power. She did it with that guy from the Gondo Family. I wonder why Elen is doing this. Probably she's getting revenge from the organization. That guy she killed was the same guy that Claudia fucked, right? Elen is a one tough cookie, got shot in the heart and still lived. |
| Sooooo... we are once again reminded that Claudia is a prostitute. Kira01 said: No way.. So, she is still alive.. You're actually surprised? |
| Cal. Ugh ugh UGH!!! I swear, every awesome action anime tries to involve an innocent little girl character to offset the seriousness of the main character. I'm not gonna complain too much, but I was not expecting an "OMG HAMBURGERZ YAY HAPPINESS" character - everything was way epic before she showed up. |
| The music was really the only good thing about this episode. |
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