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| Really nice episode, I really liked what they did with Nowak, showing him that his entire crusade wasn't to protect the faith, but more so the personal vendetta of the previous bishop. |
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| For the love of Christ, can this anime stop being so unapologetic? Schmidt just got offed like he was a fucking dog, I love that sort of realism in which the main characters die without any glorification, unceremoniously, but at this point it's almost like whoever wrote this story just wanted every single character he made to die. Also, I'm getting tired of waiting week after week for Novak to find out his daughter was still alive. I really need to see that catharsis. |
| Pretend there's something flashy and cool here. |
| Nowak is at a crossroads; will he continue to follow the conviction he has always followed, or will he follow the Church as represented by Antoni? On a fundamental level, Nowak knows the Church has corruption in it; will he follow his conviction and his Faith to purge it? |
| "Genki is Life, Genki is Love" |
| After reading this thread - have not watched the episode yet - I am looking forward to the episode, ha ha. Last episode I already was surprised about Frei. Almost forgot the boy from the first episode of the arc. But when Frei talked to Schmidt in the barn he already felt suspicious. It was great. And I wondered where Draka might go. Only person that came to my mind was the bishop (Antoni) that seemed to be interested in her. (Other than that she knew no other people outside that nomad village unless they planned to intrroduce new chars.) Seems I was right. (He seemed like the guy that could get interested when there was a benefit fhor him. Like ... money ... or maybe challenging the church and creating his own faction / supporting the other faction when he thinks it might become more powerful for sure if the book gets released.) But I'll know more later when I have watched this episode. |
| 3 episodes left. Can't wait to see how this masterpiece would conclude. In regards to this episode, a masterpiece of a one. I was shocked when i went into it due to the title "Neither of you will be known to history" thinking that it's gonna be Draka & Schmitt, which would've been frustrating since we been delaying the publishing for so long now, so glad that wasn't the case, but it truly meant, in fact, Novak & the heretics he executed throughout his life (Hubert, Rafal, Badeni, and Oczy), and in his own words, his only daughter as well. That last bit made me a bit furious as to, guys, i know you're having a perfect argument and all, but couldn't you like, slip the name "Jolenta" anywhere in between the argument? Like, Nowak still haven't known that she never died and that she was the leader who offed herself in front of his own eyes in a few hours ago, can't Draka spit it out in between the argument? Like guys, come on, seriously? That aside though, joked about it infuriating me, ain't to that degree, was just hoping it would spill out, you know, from either of them, whether Draka or Nowak. Anyway, to conclude this review, repeating myself, once again, but here we go, masterpiece of an episode, 3 episodes to go, excited to see how this masterpiece would conclude. |
| Oh my fucking God man. I remember in episode 1, someone mentioned in the discussions that people being executed for believing heliocentrism during these times was inaccurate, now it makes sense. That was solely Nowak's mission ordered by one petty bishop who probably had his theories destroyed and not the whole Church, those were only isolated cases. Nobody will remember Nowak and his mission. That's genius fucking writing, playing with the gaps in history. But man, still can't help but feel pity for Nowak, he was definitely deeply affected by what he was doing. I mean he still remembers Hubert, Rafal, Oczy and Badeni's names, maybe even deep down, there's a part of him that doubted, but losing Jolenta absolutely contributed to him getting sent further down the rabbit hole. I can't fucking believe that Bishop Antoni of all people would be the one saying all these, cause they're true, he was absolutely speaking facts, the astral bodies really isn't the only thing moving the Earth lmao. Rest in Peace Schmidt. Was very cautious of him at the beginning, but by the end, man, salute. |
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| I am a little confused by what some are saying. Those of us watching have the whole context. However, the characters couldn't possibly know it was all a misunderstanding that eventually would go away. Regions and countries are in no way interconnected to possibly know what is or what isn't legal. They all believe the church is absolute wherever they are and go. So no, there is absolutely no chance they would have ever thought about waiting a few years. Or in any realistic way to realize as soon as there was a new leader in the church, the persecution would go away. As far as they knew, heliocentrism was blasphemy and it would be law through the ages Overall, it was a good episode. I am not a fan of how fast Draka came around. Certainly, meeting someone as emblematic as Jolenta would leave a strong impression. But it needed a few more dialogue lines for it to feel natural. P.S. I'm glad you got what you deserved, Nowak. |
LavenderHazeFeb 23, 7:40 AM
| 𝓘 𝓭𝓻𝓮𝓪𝓶 𝓸𝓯 𝓯𝓪𝓵𝓵𝓲𝓷𝓰 𝓲𝓷 𝓵𝓸𝓿𝓮 𝔀𝓲𝓽𝓱 𝓬𝓱𝓪𝓻𝓪𝓬𝓽𝓮𝓻𝓼 𝓪𝓷𝓭 𝓾𝓷𝓲𝓿𝓮𝓻𝓼𝓮𝓼. |
| Talk about undermining the entire premise! All because one dumbass local bishop who didn't like one idea in astrology, meant that maybe hundreds of people died under Nowalk's hands including his daughter over nothing? Antoni truly hates him and was waiting to say that history wont remember him. I'm surprised they didn't end the show off by Nowalk recognizing Jolenta's scarf over Draka realizing who he killed. We need closure! Talk about him in even more pain when he finds out... |
| Nowak is of course the main character of the anime, but Schmitt is good, very good. I still don't understand the time period of the anime. Gutenberg made the first printing press in 1439, firearms and gunpowder were already common in the 15th century. The compass is a very old thing, but it must have been meant for the great geographical discoveries. In 1492 Columbus reached "India", in 1498 Vasco da Gama reached India. It's all 15th century. The Reformation goes back to Luther in 1517. Which led to a lot of things, like the Index of Forbidden Books, and Copernicus got there in 1616. What this is about. By the time heliocentrism was banned, all these new inventions were a century and a half or two centuries old. The Reformation hadn't just started, two years later the Thirty Years' War would start. The fierceness of the Church was due to the fact that its power was already crumbling, and heliocentrism came under a whole wave of prohibitions and repressions. It was a consequence of these innovations, i.e. it is impossible to combine - heliocentrism is forbidden, we use this new technology of printing. This is a violation of cause-and-effect relations. |
Reply to ChibiiiAlex
Another mind-bending episode. The twist of the church not pursuing the executions of herectics was a twist, but I’m confused why Antoni changed when 25 years ago he was the one began the torture of Jolenta…
| @ChibiiiAlex He acted all right, like a typical churchman. He just wants to climb the "corporate" ladder and cares only about profit, unlike his father who saw something and dedicated his life to fight against it even though no one in the world does, his father is the epitome of selfishness. About Jolenta's torture - he just hated Nowak, but as it seems he didn't really care about the whole system, he just followed his father's orders to stay in the "chain". |
MyllerPhiem said: Okay, am I misunderstanding something? After all this time, all these deaths, all the struggle, we're now supposed to believe that heliocentrism was only blasphemy in some narrow area within Poland? And elsewhere it was totally okay to talk about heliocentrism? I must be misunderstanding something, because I'm pretty sure that heliocentrism was blasphemy in all of the Christian parts of the world up to a certain point in time. What a weird "twist" to go for. There was no inquisition, witch hunts, etc. in real-life Poland. At the time it was merged with Lithuania, where Orthodoxy was the biggest religion. There were also Germans (ex. Schmidt & Frei are German surnames), so likely protestants, some Polish protestant denominations, and Jews. The unrealistic thing here is that a bishop was able to execute people for heresy. There was a law about religious freedom/tolerance which was important to keep the country from collapsing in a civil war. Realistically, this would have been a national scandal... |
| Man, I don't know how to put it into words, but this episode definitely didn't sit well with me and I'm worried about what's to come from here on out. Chi.: Chikyuu no Undou ni Tsuite was one of my favorite works of last year and my favorite this year, and it has held up - and this arc seemed to me to be potentially the best of the work. However, I just can't swallow this decision by the author. Why deny the Catholic Church's persecution of heliocentrism when it is quite public and established knowledge that the Church persecuted and murdered anyone who supported these ideas and the phenomenon was not something restricted to one or another bishop in one or another city or country. The translation of the Bible evoked great concern among the clergy due to free interpretation. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for defending heliocentrism in 1600, while Galileo Galilei died under house arrest. The Catholic Church only formally accepted heliocentrism in 1922, and these concepts are well established in basic history teaching. The characters in the military forces of the Inquisition and persecution in the work, or even the Frei who betrayed Schmidt's group, all treated heliocentrism in a fearful and criminalizing or discriminatory way. How does the author of Chi. expect to reverse this to an interpretation that it was something isolated and restricted to Nowak and the previous bishop? That is simply not true. I can accept that popular belief and common sense have placed heliocentrism as something to be feared, but I simply cannot deny that the persecution of the ideology is a consensus of the Catholicism itself. I mean, I see only two reasons for him to try to do this. The first is a lack of courage in maintaining a critical stance and portraying the Catholic Church as an antagonist, which would be a great shame and does not make much sense considering that Catholicism is not very prevalent in Japan. He would have no reason to fear criticism for the work - in fact, not even if Japan were Catholic like the Americas, after all, the Inquisition and the religious persecution of scientific ideals is historical knowledge and in the public domain. The second, perhaps, is that he never really wanted to follow a historical verisimilitude in the work - which may be quite obvious considering that Rafal and Hubert start the story, and not, for example, Nicolai Copernicus. However, even with the character deviations, the events of the story have remained quite believable and faithful up until then, with the exception of the suspension of disbelief in the dramatized action scenes. The work itself has immense historical and substantial value, as does Vinland Saga, for example. Why follow this verisimilitude for 21 episodes, and then only go back now? I don't get it. I just can't understand it. Is there a possibility that it is just Antoni's manipulation? Maybe, but I think it's unlikely. In any case, I'm quite concerned about where Chi will go from here... I hope the author doesn't fall for this idea of scapegoating Nowak and shifting blame away from the institution, when clearly this was a multi-local phenomenon and antagonism to science was a prevailing thought. |
| Welcome to politics, Nowak. What's right or wrong depends on who's in charge. It's the people who believe they had the moral high ground that are always the most extreme, even though the high ground could just collapse from under their feet at any moment. The magic is to keep an open mind. |
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Reply to Marander
Man, I don't know how to put it into words, but this episode definitely didn't sit well with me and I'm worried about what's to come from here on out. Chi.: Chikyuu no Undou ni Tsuite was one of my favorite works of last year and my favorite this year, and it has held up - and this arc seemed to me to be potentially the best of the work.
However, I just can't swallow this decision by the author. Why deny the Catholic Church's persecution of heliocentrism when it is quite public and established knowledge that the Church persecuted and murdered anyone who supported these ideas and the phenomenon was not something restricted to one or another bishop in one or another city or country. The translation of the Bible evoked great concern among the clergy due to free interpretation. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for defending heliocentrism in 1600, while Galileo Galilei died under house arrest. The Catholic Church only formally accepted heliocentrism in 1922, and these concepts are well established in basic history teaching. The characters in the military forces of the Inquisition and persecution in the work, or even the Frei who betrayed Schmidt's group, all treated heliocentrism in a fearful and criminalizing or discriminatory way. How does the author of Chi. expect to reverse this to an interpretation that it was something isolated and restricted to Nowak and the previous bishop? That is simply not true. I can accept that popular belief and common sense have placed heliocentrism as something to be feared, but I simply cannot deny that the persecution of the ideology is a consensus of the Catholicism itself.
I mean, I see only two reasons for him to try to do this. The first is a lack of courage in maintaining a critical stance and portraying the Catholic Church as an antagonist, which would be a great shame and does not make much sense considering that Catholicism is not very prevalent in Japan. He would have no reason to fear criticism for the work - in fact, not even if Japan were Catholic like the Americas, after all, the Inquisition and the religious persecution of scientific ideals is historical knowledge and in the public domain. The second, perhaps, is that he never really wanted to follow a historical verisimilitude in the work - which may be quite obvious considering that Rafal and Hubert start the story, and not, for example, Nicolai Copernicus. However, even with the character deviations, the events of the story have remained quite believable and faithful up until then, with the exception of the suspension of disbelief in the dramatized action scenes. The work itself has immense historical and substantial value, as does Vinland Saga, for example. Why follow this verisimilitude for 21 episodes, and then only go back now? I don't get it. I just can't understand it.
Is there a possibility that it is just Antoni's manipulation? Maybe, but I think it's unlikely. In any case, I'm quite concerned about where Chi will go from here... I hope the author doesn't fall for this idea of scapegoating Nowak and shifting blame away from the institution, when clearly this was a multi-local phenomenon and antagonism to science was a prevailing thought.
However, I just can't swallow this decision by the author. Why deny the Catholic Church's persecution of heliocentrism when it is quite public and established knowledge that the Church persecuted and murdered anyone who supported these ideas and the phenomenon was not something restricted to one or another bishop in one or another city or country. The translation of the Bible evoked great concern among the clergy due to free interpretation. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for defending heliocentrism in 1600, while Galileo Galilei died under house arrest. The Catholic Church only formally accepted heliocentrism in 1922, and these concepts are well established in basic history teaching. The characters in the military forces of the Inquisition and persecution in the work, or even the Frei who betrayed Schmidt's group, all treated heliocentrism in a fearful and criminalizing or discriminatory way. How does the author of Chi. expect to reverse this to an interpretation that it was something isolated and restricted to Nowak and the previous bishop? That is simply not true. I can accept that popular belief and common sense have placed heliocentrism as something to be feared, but I simply cannot deny that the persecution of the ideology is a consensus of the Catholicism itself.
I mean, I see only two reasons for him to try to do this. The first is a lack of courage in maintaining a critical stance and portraying the Catholic Church as an antagonist, which would be a great shame and does not make much sense considering that Catholicism is not very prevalent in Japan. He would have no reason to fear criticism for the work - in fact, not even if Japan were Catholic like the Americas, after all, the Inquisition and the religious persecution of scientific ideals is historical knowledge and in the public domain. The second, perhaps, is that he never really wanted to follow a historical verisimilitude in the work - which may be quite obvious considering that Rafal and Hubert start the story, and not, for example, Nicolai Copernicus. However, even with the character deviations, the events of the story have remained quite believable and faithful up until then, with the exception of the suspension of disbelief in the dramatized action scenes. The work itself has immense historical and substantial value, as does Vinland Saga, for example. Why follow this verisimilitude for 21 episodes, and then only go back now? I don't get it. I just can't understand it.
Is there a possibility that it is just Antoni's manipulation? Maybe, but I think it's unlikely. In any case, I'm quite concerned about where Chi will go from here... I hope the author doesn't fall for this idea of scapegoating Nowak and shifting blame away from the institution, when clearly this was a multi-local phenomenon and antagonism to science was a prevailing thought.
| @Marander this is a very debated topic, and i dont wanna start this whole convo again for days like last time, so i guess ill just give my 2 cents and leave lol. Either way, its pretty debated about how or even if heliocentrism was a thing to be persecuted in the past. From the 2 main examples, which you did give, most people/historians i have seen do seem to say Bruno was most likely condemned due to his opinions of religion in general rather than his views on the cosmos, although again, that is highly debated and i can somewhat see both sides. And on galileis case i think it was most likely politics more so than anything else, and either way he was "only" punished with house arrest. Politics being the reason behind the arrest of gelilei is literally what the author is saying in this episode. the catholic church might not care that much about heliocentrism, be it in real life or in this story, but it was still extremely corrupt, which is obviously not a good thing lol. this episode doesnt, in any way, try to absolve the crimes the church did at the time, far from it, its showing new crimes they committed. I think its far, faaaar more correct historically now than what it was seemingly before. Hell, even the argument i have sometimes seen about how the church could have burned people about their beliefs in heliocentrism but those victims just werent recorded in history records, is literally tackled in this episode and its title. "neither of you will be known to history". Showing the fact that there is a total possibility of there been other cases in the past of people being punished by their contracting views on the cosmos, but there just not being records about them, just like all the fallen we have gotten in this show, hubert, rafal, oczy and badeni. Also, if you think he "pivoted" last second to this, i think you would be incorrect, because if you remember from episode 10 or so, it is said that the past bishop was obsessed with heliocentrism and the cosmos for "some reason", we just didnt know which. So yes, this whole thing was most likely already thought out at least by then, if not earlier. Basically, my point is that the author didnt go this route because he wanted to "appease" to catholicism while disregarding correct historical research. Its literally the total opposite, where he does want to solve a lot of the complaints people have had about the historical inaccuracies in the show/manga, while also showing new ways of how bad the church was at the time. |
| Episode Summary: "Yo, what's up Nowak! Oh, btw, your whole life was meaningless and you killed a bunch of people for pointless reasons. Sucks to be you, bro." |
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Reply to Marander
Man, I don't know how to put it into words, but this episode definitely didn't sit well with me and I'm worried about what's to come from here on out. Chi.: Chikyuu no Undou ni Tsuite was one of my favorite works of last year and my favorite this year, and it has held up - and this arc seemed to me to be potentially the best of the work.
However, I just can't swallow this decision by the author. Why deny the Catholic Church's persecution of heliocentrism when it is quite public and established knowledge that the Church persecuted and murdered anyone who supported these ideas and the phenomenon was not something restricted to one or another bishop in one or another city or country. The translation of the Bible evoked great concern among the clergy due to free interpretation. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for defending heliocentrism in 1600, while Galileo Galilei died under house arrest. The Catholic Church only formally accepted heliocentrism in 1922, and these concepts are well established in basic history teaching. The characters in the military forces of the Inquisition and persecution in the work, or even the Frei who betrayed Schmidt's group, all treated heliocentrism in a fearful and criminalizing or discriminatory way. How does the author of Chi. expect to reverse this to an interpretation that it was something isolated and restricted to Nowak and the previous bishop? That is simply not true. I can accept that popular belief and common sense have placed heliocentrism as something to be feared, but I simply cannot deny that the persecution of the ideology is a consensus of the Catholicism itself.
I mean, I see only two reasons for him to try to do this. The first is a lack of courage in maintaining a critical stance and portraying the Catholic Church as an antagonist, which would be a great shame and does not make much sense considering that Catholicism is not very prevalent in Japan. He would have no reason to fear criticism for the work - in fact, not even if Japan were Catholic like the Americas, after all, the Inquisition and the religious persecution of scientific ideals is historical knowledge and in the public domain. The second, perhaps, is that he never really wanted to follow a historical verisimilitude in the work - which may be quite obvious considering that Rafal and Hubert start the story, and not, for example, Nicolai Copernicus. However, even with the character deviations, the events of the story have remained quite believable and faithful up until then, with the exception of the suspension of disbelief in the dramatized action scenes. The work itself has immense historical and substantial value, as does Vinland Saga, for example. Why follow this verisimilitude for 21 episodes, and then only go back now? I don't get it. I just can't understand it.
Is there a possibility that it is just Antoni's manipulation? Maybe, but I think it's unlikely. In any case, I'm quite concerned about where Chi will go from here... I hope the author doesn't fall for this idea of scapegoating Nowak and shifting blame away from the institution, when clearly this was a multi-local phenomenon and antagonism to science was a prevailing thought.
However, I just can't swallow this decision by the author. Why deny the Catholic Church's persecution of heliocentrism when it is quite public and established knowledge that the Church persecuted and murdered anyone who supported these ideas and the phenomenon was not something restricted to one or another bishop in one or another city or country. The translation of the Bible evoked great concern among the clergy due to free interpretation. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for defending heliocentrism in 1600, while Galileo Galilei died under house arrest. The Catholic Church only formally accepted heliocentrism in 1922, and these concepts are well established in basic history teaching. The characters in the military forces of the Inquisition and persecution in the work, or even the Frei who betrayed Schmidt's group, all treated heliocentrism in a fearful and criminalizing or discriminatory way. How does the author of Chi. expect to reverse this to an interpretation that it was something isolated and restricted to Nowak and the previous bishop? That is simply not true. I can accept that popular belief and common sense have placed heliocentrism as something to be feared, but I simply cannot deny that the persecution of the ideology is a consensus of the Catholicism itself.
I mean, I see only two reasons for him to try to do this. The first is a lack of courage in maintaining a critical stance and portraying the Catholic Church as an antagonist, which would be a great shame and does not make much sense considering that Catholicism is not very prevalent in Japan. He would have no reason to fear criticism for the work - in fact, not even if Japan were Catholic like the Americas, after all, the Inquisition and the religious persecution of scientific ideals is historical knowledge and in the public domain. The second, perhaps, is that he never really wanted to follow a historical verisimilitude in the work - which may be quite obvious considering that Rafal and Hubert start the story, and not, for example, Nicolai Copernicus. However, even with the character deviations, the events of the story have remained quite believable and faithful up until then, with the exception of the suspension of disbelief in the dramatized action scenes. The work itself has immense historical and substantial value, as does Vinland Saga, for example. Why follow this verisimilitude for 21 episodes, and then only go back now? I don't get it. I just can't understand it.
Is there a possibility that it is just Antoni's manipulation? Maybe, but I think it's unlikely. In any case, I'm quite concerned about where Chi will go from here... I hope the author doesn't fall for this idea of scapegoating Nowak and shifting blame away from the institution, when clearly this was a multi-local phenomenon and antagonism to science was a prevailing thought.
| @Marander See @Kiniaczu above who says there was no prosecution in Poland at all. What now? My two big problems of this episode really are that for one the scene with Nowak at the end was presented in such low-key fashion, it didn't feel as dramatic audio-visually as it should have felt considering the "twist". The other problem is that I just cannot imagine how this whole inquisition thing was such a locally limited thing. Like, we knew that it happened in at least several towns. Towns with universities, so bigger towns, too. And now suddenly we're supposed to believe that heliocentrism was fine to talk about had our heroes just stepped outside of the area for like 10 kilometers? That's insane. And honestly Nowak isn't even the one who should be shocked most. Jolenta, Badeni, Oczy, Rafael, they should be shocked about how they wasted their lives, because they all could have lived had they just moved outside of the shithole they lived in. Fuck, how could Badeni not have known about this as a knowledgeable priest? I hope I'm misunderstanding something, but right now this episode definitely worsens the entire series for me. |
| If you haven't watched "Fantastic Children", don't talk about "best anime". Thank you. |
| I guess this is what it means destroying a man's life in just 3 minutes. I'm not sure whether it was mentioned before or not, but is Nowak able to read and write? If by any chance, he comes across the book, will he recognise his own daughter's name on the first page of the book? During the encounter at the church, if any of them said Jolenta's name aloud, we would likely have witnessed some distressing scenes. |
| Calling that a humbling for Nowak is an incredible understatement, jeez. A very compelling episode as a whole but one that has me remain extremely curious and cautious with what is about to happen, especially with Nowak's character there after his talk with Antoni there. Felt like his entire life and the people that he took out along the way for the pursuit of his ideals and sense of justice all washed away there, and that revolt against heliocentrism took his daughter away from him too. |
| For some reason, I was under the mistaken impression that Antoni had already been killed in an earlier episode - the one in which there was that brief but lethal violent tussle involving Schmitt and his men returning to the site of the abandoned village to retrieve the hidden book. Where they killed several church militants under Antoni's command who Draka was being led away by before acquiring Draka themselves. |
| This episode really shows how using religion for justice is such a dangerous concept, verses can be interpreted in so many ways that it can lead to absolutely unnecessary atrocities like what happened in the 25 years of this story, Novak himself seems to finally understand that, i got chills when he cited the names of all he helped kill Overall it strenghen my belief that religion can be used as a manual for living should never have authority around others, how much of an hypocrit can you be to twist one of the first and most important verse "do not kill" for example, but a lot do/did sadly. |
| Deep dark fantasies |
Reply to VP2003boi
@Marander this is a very debated topic, and i dont wanna start this whole convo again for days like last time, so i guess ill just give my 2 cents and leave lol. Either way, its pretty debated about how or even if heliocentrism was a thing to be persecuted in the past. From the 2 main examples, which you did give, most people/historians i have seen do seem to say Bruno was most likely condemned due to his opinions of religion in general rather than his views on the cosmos, although again, that is highly debated and i can somewhat see both sides. And on galileis case i think it was most likely politics more so than anything else, and either way he was "only" punished with house arrest. Politics being the reason behind the arrest of gelilei is literally what the author is saying in this episode. the catholic church might not care that much about heliocentrism, be it in real life or in this story, but it was still extremely corrupt, which is obviously not a good thing lol.
this episode doesnt, in any way, try to absolve the crimes the church did at the time, far from it, its showing new crimes they committed. I think its far, faaaar more correct historically now than what it was seemingly before. Hell, even the argument i have sometimes seen about how the church could have burned people about their beliefs in heliocentrism but those victims just werent recorded in history records, is literally tackled in this episode and its title. "neither of you will be known to history". Showing the fact that there is a total possibility of there been other cases in the past of people being punished by their contracting views on the cosmos, but there just not being records about them, just like all the fallen we have gotten in this show, hubert, rafal, oczy and badeni.
Also, if you think he "pivoted" last second to this, i think you would be incorrect, because if you remember from episode 10 or so, it is said that the past bishop was obsessed with heliocentrism and the cosmos for "some reason", we just didnt know which. So yes, this whole thing was most likely already thought out at least by then, if not earlier.
Basically, my point is that the author didnt go this route because he wanted to "appease" to catholicism while disregarding correct historical research. Its literally the total opposite, where he does want to solve a lot of the complaints people have had about the historical inaccuracies in the show/manga, while also showing new ways of how bad the church was at the time.
this episode doesnt, in any way, try to absolve the crimes the church did at the time, far from it, its showing new crimes they committed. I think its far, faaaar more correct historically now than what it was seemingly before. Hell, even the argument i have sometimes seen about how the church could have burned people about their beliefs in heliocentrism but those victims just werent recorded in history records, is literally tackled in this episode and its title. "neither of you will be known to history". Showing the fact that there is a total possibility of there been other cases in the past of people being punished by their contracting views on the cosmos, but there just not being records about them, just like all the fallen we have gotten in this show, hubert, rafal, oczy and badeni.
Also, if you think he "pivoted" last second to this, i think you would be incorrect, because if you remember from episode 10 or so, it is said that the past bishop was obsessed with heliocentrism and the cosmos for "some reason", we just didnt know which. So yes, this whole thing was most likely already thought out at least by then, if not earlier.
Basically, my point is that the author didnt go this route because he wanted to "appease" to catholicism while disregarding correct historical research. Its literally the total opposite, where he does want to solve a lot of the complaints people have had about the historical inaccuracies in the show/manga, while also showing new ways of how bad the church was at the time.
| @VP2003boi i dont wanna start this whole convo again for days like last time, so i guess ill just give my 2 cents and leave lol Well, I also have no interest in extending this debate. I came back just to give my opinion, but I also hate it when debates drag on for hundreds of responses and a long time; and this is just to let you know that I read what you wrote. You don't need to respond - also because I don't intend to come back later and I admit that already there is a lot of writing. Either way, its pretty debated about how or even if heliocentrism was a thing to be persecuted in the past. Even if it is, I openly agree with historians who point to the classical view that heliocentrism was persecuted and attribute the reason for the executions of these figures to such ideological persecution - and, after the episode, I went to read and confirm to make sure I wasn't misunderstanding the work. Not because they can't be multifactorial - I even believe they are - but because human beings are naturally composed of defense mechanisms. Any form of change that requires adaptation and action or causes stress activates some coping mechanism, and living in society is naturally like this. Perhaps Nowak will be the protagonist of this phenomenon in the next episode, and he was previously when confronted by Rafal; but we saw a very faithful illustration in Count Piast, for example, or even in Frei. And where does this fit into the case of these figures? It helps to explain scientific denialism. In addition to being a threat that undermines the authority of the clergy and an uncomfortable conception that undermines religiosity, which is often a comfortable and soothing mural used as coping; heliocentrism and other revolutionary scientific discoveries are a phenomenon that imbues stress and adaptability; that shakes people's beliefs and throws all pre-constructed comfort into space. Questioning your way of living when it is comfortable is not intuitive, precisely because we are biologically designed not to overthink the way of living and conceiving reality in this dimension, but to dominate the environment and maximize our chances of survival. We are natural hypocrites, we learn and adapt, yes, but getting stuck at a point of existential crisis is not interesting for survival, and to ensure action our brain covers us with layers of self-deception or aggressive strategies against the stressor. We do our best to stabilize ourselves in comfort, not to change all the time. From this point of view, I believe that scientific denialism is a phenomenon that under no circumstances can be regional. It is a reflection of something intrinsic to human nature; a pattern that spans ages, and is no different from conventional escapism with anything - drugs, internet, science, religion, entertainment, relationships, etc. Even today, flat-earthers, anti-vaccination movements and others emerge in multiple countries; and although they are subject to regional amplification by political and sociocultural factors, they are not restricted. So, my great resistance and dispute with what the author wrote is precisely Antoni's speech, and how he treats the persecution of heliocentrism as regional. It cannot be, when people actually behave this way and when heliocentrism was formally accepted by the institution only centuries after its proof. While we are all naturally selfish, hypocritical, manipulative, deceitful, and cowardly by nature, the average human being does not tend to rationalize as Antoni did, but rather to direct aggression to cover up their fear or to sweep the problem under the rug. Acceptance of an individual like Antoni according to gain is possible and real, but the Church - and the people - would mostly behave like Frei or Schmidt's uncle during his parents' escape, for example. Even the people in the work associated and feared heliocentrism because they thought it went against the principles of the existence of God and their conception of the world, that it would harm them in the final judgment or that it would cause them to be persecuted; and this spread like a rumor from then on; precisely because fear controls human beings and is intrinsically linked to other emotions. I think this is an inseparable pattern of human beings, and any other society, more or less, would react in the same way with the exception of a few. Especially when we talk about group psychology (clergy in this case) and mass behavior. this episode doesnt, in any way, try to absolve the crimes the church did at the time, far from it, its showing new crimes they committed. I think its far, faaaar more correct historically now than what it was seemingly before. Hell, even the argument i have sometimes seen about how the church could have burned people about their beliefs in heliocentrism but those victims just werent recorded in history records ... But I admit that my view was limited here and I believe you are right on that point. Probably, irritated by Antoni's speech right after, I only associated the episode title with Nowak and the inquisitors, and this translated into a mistake by not linking it to the execution victims. This also means that the author may, in fact, not want to imply that heliocentrism was persecuted regionally, but rather in multiple foci, and is only suggesting an underreporting of the persecutions. "Burn the proves" is a fairly common phenomenon in human history, especially in massacres and authoritarian governments, as was the case with the previous dictatorship in my country. However, although seeing it this way also has the potential to turn water into wine about the episode, it would also mean that the author tried to do it in a very questionable way, and my fury is directed at the fact that he did not need to insert this subplot of reducing the phenomenon to the regional to do so and could have done it in another way that did not require so much suspension of disbelief. It's a recurring problem in action scenes, so perhaps this suspension of disbelief is a point where I disagree with this author. if you remember from episode 10 or so, it is said that the past bishop was obsessed with heliocentrism and the cosmos for "some reason", we just didnt know which Umm.. My bad. That's the problem with seeing works weekly. Unless I do as I did with Wonder Egg Priority or other works and actively take notes and discuss them every week. It is difficult for even the most attentive to remember details of dialogues and depends on the luck of focusing on what is being said, so that it can then be consolidated as "important" by the lottery of the prefrontal cortex and fixed as long-term memory. So, that one passed. Basically, my point is that the author didnt go this route because he wanted to "appease" to catholicism while disregarding correct historical research. Its literally the total opposite, where he does want to solve a lot of the complaints people have had about the historical inaccuracies in the show/manga, while also showing new ways of how bad the church was at the time. TL;Dr: I agree with the first part of this comment; I think the author fails with regard to the second (in italics) and this decision potentially makes the work more artificial; and I agree with the final part. |
| The dangling egg finally broke on Nowak's head and man he's still in denial. Nowak is a prime example of a character that never grows, despite getting tons of chances to do so. Incoming an epic showdown as we close in on the plot. |
  🇸🇪🇹 🇧🇾⦂ 🇨🇴🇿🇮🇮 🇨🇦🇷🇩 🇨🇴🇱🇱🇪🇨🇹🇮🇴🇳 🇩🇪🇱🇮🇻🇪🇷🇾 |
| Tf was that? In conclusion all of the last 22 episodes and all martyr doesn't matter. Nowak its just a prank bro. Seriously this episode completely ruined this show for me. Lets see where it goes in last 3 episodes. But that's not what I wanted after seeing all of them die only to succeed this easily. |
Marander said: From this point of view, I believe that scientific denialism is a phenomenon that under no circumstances can be regional. It is a reflection of something intrinsic to human nature; a pattern that spans ages, and is no different from conventional escapism with anything - drugs, internet, science, religion, entertainment, relationships, etc. Even today, flat-earthers, anti-vaccination movements and others emerge in multiple countries; and although they are subject to regional amplification by political and sociocultural factors, they are not restricted. So, my great resistance and dispute with what the author wrote is precisely Antoni's speech, and how he treats the persecution of heliocentrism as regional. I just wanted to interject to say that while I agree with your point as it relates to scientific denialism itself - as a whole or base concept/phenomenon which could be applied to many different subjects and areas of life, it cannot be regional or local in practice. But I don't see why that then therefore must mean that individual subsets or manifestations of it cannot be. It seems perfectly possible and plausible that due to a range of underlying material factors, coincidental circumstances, different political systems in place at the time, and the personalities involved that what might quickly become a scholarly taboo and trickle down to the popular level in Central or Eastern Europe does not in South Asia or the Horn of Africa, but different ones not present in Central Europe predominate there. Even though I've said this, if the character of Bishop Antoni is really saying - and the author of the series by extension is really saying what some are implying and the conclusion I see increasingly widely being drawn and accepted - that it was all the doings of one man's pernicious vendetta, then even if true I have one big problem with the believability of this scene as far as how it was handled. And that problem is that we have already seen Antoni, earlier in the series, be an excellent actor and dispassionately, convincingly lie stone cold straight to someone's face - and that someone was even the exact same person, Nowak himself, around 25 years earlier over the staging of Jolenta's execution using the body-swapped corpse of that murdered junior inquisitor trainee as a prop. So to have him essentially act and carry on in the same manner here but expect it to be something naturally unquestioningly believed by the audience this time around, if that is the intention, when we previously saw step by step behind the scenes precisely how far he was willing to go to pull off a bold and insidious lie, to the very same man no less, seems like a very strange decision. |
WatchTillTandavaFeb 26, 8:45 PM
| Damn, RIP Schmidt. Ooft kind of feel bad for Nowak basically having his whole life be a waste and just a needless pawn that lead to the death of his daughter. |
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| Antoni with the ultimate gaslighting |
| So basically it all just a widespread of Misinformation that Heliocentrism is Blasphemy by Nowak and that One Bishop who hired him??? No one decided to fact check it until now when Antony did it for personal gains??? The Higher ups of Church knew nothing about all of this???? This all seems absurd all of a sudden. I thought it was the backward-minded people of the Church who were not allowing people to Discover the truth or the church would lose all its power. Paharo05 said: Why are people sayong everything was because of a misunderstanding? That guy who hated heliocentrism knew what he was doing and its consequences. It wasn't a misunderstanding. It was very effective manipulation Yes but it understood from the beginning that The Church hates Heliocentrism and not just Nowak and that Bishop. gorkthe134th said: Yet the idea that there was never a problem to solve (or rather it was so small scale) goes against what the show has stood for so far. It's basically devaluing the importance of everyone's action (including their sacrifices) to villainise someone we don't know anything about. Exactly |
Archfiend836Feb 28, 3:58 AM
 |
| Nowak's despair is not because of the murder of the heliocentrism scientists, but because of the sacrifice of his own daughter, Jolenta, and all under a mistaken idea. Despair. It was another great episode. kekeke |
| Nowak is not going to survive long after learning the truth. I cannot imagine how he's going to feel after learning that because of him, Jolenta is also dead. |
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