Fate/Zero Episode 11 Discussion

Offline

Jun 2008

1840

Yumekichi11 said:
That was all of them? Oh fuck that is terrible. Can Kirei do something himself? He should have had a hidden assassin somewhere.

Lol, underestimating Kotomine "fucking" Kirei. He hunts dead apostles for a living. He was already strong without Assassin.

The real question is "What can't Kirei do?"

Visit this blog That I'm working with my friend
http://randomnessthing.com/

Dec 12, 2011 8:12 PM

#207

allflying

Offline

Apr 2011

986

Thess said:

Lolwhat. Reality check: A fully trained with top-class abilities Shirou at his peak can't beat H/A Bazett (according to Nasu, she'll easily dispose of him. We're not even talking about Bazett at her peak who could be Ciel class or further, or her Prisma Illya counterpart who is basically monstrously strong -like... Berserker she's compared- and can handle Servants with her bare hands...). What makes you think he can beat Alexander the Great? His advantage with the fight against Gilgamesh was that Gil wasn't serious, wasn't armored, was also enraged. Shirou knew the moment he would calm down, he was as good as dead. Rider is a lot more cool-headed and tactician than Gilgamesh.

It's wrong too. He can't copy servants, only swords (he fails projecting anything else, that was... the point: he can only do blades, because his origin is "sword"). Furthermore, his Reality Marble isn't as powerful as Rider's. In case both would activated at the same time, it would be Rider's RM that would crush his: Class EX vs Class A++ IF he's at full potential (otherwise can vary).

allflying said:

GodlyKyon said:

bakari said:
Archer's (F/SN) reality marble contains a load of noble phantasms but Rider's contains a load of servants. take that Emiya Shirou!

Technically speaking, Shirou CAN copy all those servants, or their powers at least. So yeah, he will be taking them, all of them.

Tell me if I am wrong

You sir, are so genius! *applause*

Read: sarcasm :)

Dec 12, 2011 8:55 PM

#208

Yumekichi11

Offline

Oct 2010

9900

kaimax said:

Yumekichi11 said:
That was all of them? Oh fuck that is terrible. Can Kirei do something himself? He should have had a hidden assassin somewhere.

Lol, underestimating Kotomine "fucking" Kirei. He hunts dead apostles for a living. He was already strong without Assassin.

The real question is "What can't Kirei do?"

AH! I see! Indeed WTF can he do? I am assuming at most taking Gilga for himself and his own skills while training as a Pro in his job? Perhaps? You can PM if there is something spoiler about it. I love to know more than this episode.

- BLOG - My Club- Easiest way to reach the rest of my thoughts!

Dec 12, 2011 10:56 PM

#209

Impulse66

Offline

May 2011

89

This episode of F/Z was def amazing. It's not often where we see people sit down and talk in an anime and actually have a intellectual conversation and still be interesting to look at.

It's sad that we already know the outcome of this battle but Iskander is def an amazing Rider, way better then F/SN Rider in my opinion. His noble phantasm looks more fancy in a epic brutal war type of way, plus like a king should be, he actually attacks at the front of his army, no magic just pure warfare.

Assassin seems like the short end of the stick character in this anime who we know absolutely nothing about.

But yeah looking forward to the next episodes.

Dec 12, 2011 11:29 PM

#210

Offline

Jun 2008

1840

Impulse66 said:
It's sad that we already know the outcome of this battle but Iskander is def an amazing Rider, way better then F/SN Rider in my opinion.

But this doesn't mean FSN Rider is weaker or less amazing than Zero Rider, it's just that she was less exposed than Zero Rider and always overshadowed by Shinji.

Her Bellerophon can actually be a tough opponent for Zero Rider's NP, since she can just fly up into the sky with Pegasus and spam attack it, and it's an Anti-Army NP.

Visit this blog That I'm working with my friend
http://randomnessthing.com/

Dec 13, 2011 1:42 AM

#211

Reim_Seranth

Offline

Oct 2010

399

kaimax said:

Impulse66 said:
It's sad that we already know the outcome of this battle but Iskander is def an amazing Rider, way better then F/SN Rider in my opinion.

But this doesn't mean FSN Rider is weaker or less amazing than Zero Rider, it's just that she was less exposed than Zero Rider and always overshadowed by Shinji.

Her Bellerophon can actually be a tough opponent for Zero Rider's NP, since she can just fly up into the sky with Pegasus and spam attack it, and it's an Anti-Army NP.

Don't forget that Alexander could fly with Gordian too though, and his army could shoot infinite amount of spears from below... So even if F/SN Rider is stronger in the air, once she go down its the end for her

~ IA- Aria on the Planetes ~ Vocaloid V3 voiced by LiA (Clannad Afterstory, Angel Beats! theme song singer)

Dec 13, 2011 5:07 AM

#212

Cashdax

Offline

Feb 2010

2179

Epic Rider.

9/10, why?

-1 Because Berserker did not interfere.

kaimax said:

Yumekichi11 said:
That was all of them? Oh fuck that is terrible. Can Kirei do something himself? He should have had a hidden assassin somewhere.

Lol, underestimating Kotomine "fucking" Kirei. He hunts dead apostles for a living. He was already strong without Assassin.

The real question is "What can't Kirei do?"

He's Chuck Noris, F/Zero Version. He will be back and even better.

CashdaxDec 13, 2011 5:11 AM

"Your taste is shit cause you like what I hate. Believe me I have 1000 cartoons that I rated with less than 5."

Dec 13, 2011 5:11 AM

#213

Lieila

Offline

Jan 2008

1068

Awesomeness with Rider's noble phantasm. His points or convictions were highlighted. Totally the man of the episode.

Animelist // Mangalist

Dec 13, 2011 5:22 AM

#214

Lauriet

Offline

Dec 2010

1769

So.... am I the only person here that was grinning like an idiot when I saw the army come in?

No? Good. Because even though I like them, the Assassins were so outrageously fucked.

I feel bad for Saber. Getting curbstomped verbally on what and how a king should be like. Her own fault, though. What with that huge fatal flaw.

Dec 13, 2011 6:48 AM

#215

Cashdax

Offline

Feb 2010

2179

Otsdarva said:
So.... am I the only person here that was grinning like an idiot when I saw the army come in?

No? Good. Because even though I like them, the Assassins were so outrageously fucked.

I feel bad for Saber. Getting curbstomped verbally on what and how a king should be like. Her own fault, though. What with that huge fatal flaw.

Indeed, I feel sorry for her though. But still, "a king must be greedy" is true.

"Your taste is shit cause you like what I hate. Believe me I have 1000 cartoons that I rated with less than 5."

Dec 13, 2011 7:01 AM

#216

amirhoss

Offline

Jan 2009

472

azuremask said:

Hmm....Sorry but you can blame Kirei for that one.

first it wasn't kirei idea it was tokiomi since he probably wanted to get rid of assassins too since he got gilgamesh and have some information about other servants(he might thought that assassin may become a possible threat later).second they weren't ordered NOT to attack the others so they could at least attack the other master plus if they wanted to see his NP normally one would think that they need to fight him alone so they needed to get rid of the other master(and trust me if they were able to just assassinate the masters like that even with orders they would have done it already)

azuremask said:

Sorry, but you wrong again Kirei was seeing through assassin eyes so the assassin wasn't able to go invisible. As for kiritsugu he was thinking about how someone can use the spot to spy on his opponent and don't forget kiritsugu already suspect that assassin was still alive. To that point kiritsugu couldn't fire a shot since assassin will hear it and attack him.That why when saber was in trouble, kiritsugu was about to use his partner as a decoy to attract assassin attention.

they could stand somewhere else like kiritsugu it is not like kiritsugu have stealth abilities u know.all they needed to do was to hide in a better place like kiritsugu or Karyia so they didn't need to go INVISIBLE xD.and HIDING means that u expect someone to see u that is why u hide so it doesn't matter if kiritsugu expected him or not and do not worry kiritusugu and mayia would managed to beat him if it would come to that with some plot device its not like that it didn't happened before for assassins

azuremask said:

When facing other servant the assassin have to attack using the most unfair and advantageous conditions which he did.

and that is why i am saying he NEEDS many conditions to do something useful unlike others thats why he got beaten by rider in HF afterward but if it was another servant like lancer or archer they would fight normally like they always do so they have advantage over assassin.(only assassin and caster don't have freedom unlike the other classes)

azuremask said:

Not really you just pick a target stick with them until it a right time to strike.

which didn't happen in Fate universe.for example he prepared himself for saber.but most other servants don't need that they just face their opponents.that is why assassin got beaten whenever he is not ready and that is why the other classes are superior becuz of this advantage.u are probably mistaking fate with assassin's creed !!!
what i am saying is assassins shouldn't even need these preparations.they were able to do assassination in their real life without any of these preparation and they assassinated kings or heroes but here they can't!not without special preparations...

azuremask said:

Nothing end well for most character the holy grail war.

at least most of them die without getting humiliated so much;) and most of them advanced like a real Heroic Spirit if u know what i mean

azuremask said:

The assassin are masters worse enemy and the servant can't always be at they master side. Berserker for example..When a berserker fight another servant do you see his master around him.. no they somewhere else watching from a distance so that perfect chance for the assassin to kill berserker master. Doesen't matter how strong the servant is if the connection that give them prana to maintain form in the world is cut the are helpless... Even those who last little longer with their own prana are soon to fade away.

which in theory is suppose to happen but it never did in fate.do u rly think if assassin would have seen kariya that night he wouldn't attack?he DIDN'T see him so the masters can easily hide out of his reach.(don't tell me he was just focusing on the fight even kiritsugu was checking out the area so it doesn't need much brain cells to do that.it is alright for kiritsugu not to find karyia since he is not a heroic spirit but for assassin to fail in this aspect ...but u are probably gonna blame kirei on this one too even though most of the ppl know that kirei is one of the smart characters in the series and he probably checked it too with assassin's eyes and it is assassin's responsibility to help his master to find the others and should give his master the perfect view of the scene without standing in an obvious position and without getting discovered.that is assassin's responsibility not his master)

azuremask said:

No I'm not blaming you I just want other to see that the true strength of an assassin class. Don't worry I saying nothing about the fake assassin

that is ur opinion and u are free to think that way but sadly that is not how it is if u ask me or most of the fans

amirhossDec 13, 2011 8:03 AM

iSignature

Dec 13, 2011 7:45 AM

#217

Offline

Sep 2010

1201

wishbook said:
lol if not for their bad lucks, F/Z and F/SN Lancers could have won the Grail War... F/Z Lancer is actually quite imba with his anti-magic, anti-healing and absolute loyalty , and F/SN Lancer could strike enemies' heart in a flash (reverse cause and effect), which is quite terrifying, plus Bazett... That haxed master who could've won the grail war in a flash if only she wasn't betrayed by her own 'trusted' friend.

Oh wait, Caster class got Tamano (Fate/Extra), so their Class got a win. On the other hand, Being Assassin is Still Suffering.

wishbook said:
- If assassin was summoned by a skillful master like Kiritsugu, what will happen?

- What will happen to Shirou if Bazett could participate in the Grail War, will he survive or die?

Eh… Kirei would have been a good match for Assasin if he gave a damn to win the Grail when he was their Master (he was only following Tokiomi so far).

It depends how ruthless Bazett is feeling that day. She is an Enforcer, hunting magi are another day in the job. She would have joined Lancer in the battlefield.

About the rest… You know what I said about the Grail. XD;

Dec 13, 2011 8:59 AM

#218

YowaiHito

Offline

Jun 2011

12

Faker_ said:
One down. Err, 40 down?

Great episode. I didn't really notice anything weird animation wise. Lot's of different camera angle and drinking faces, but I felt that it was how it was supposed to be. Sometimes they would keep their faces towards their drink, but still look towards someone, is that the weird eyes people are talking about?

no the eyes seemed to be out of place and smaller than they are supposed to be in many scenes. The position was dam awkward like the distance between the eyes inhumanly far and highly noticeably smaller in most scenes or so was hw i felt as i watched the epi

Dec 13, 2011 9:22 AM

#219

Offline

Jun 2008

1840

wishbook said:

kaimax said:

Impulse66 said:
It's sad that we already know the outcome of this battle but Iskander is def an amazing Rider, way better then F/SN Rider in my opinion.

But this doesn't mean FSN Rider is weaker or less amazing than Zero Rider, it's just that she was less exposed than Zero Rider and always overshadowed by Shinji.

Her Bellerophon can actually be a tough opponent for Zero Rider's NP, since she can just fly up into the sky with Pegasus and spam attack it, and it's an Anti-Army NP.

Don't forget that Alexander could fly with Gordian too though, and his army could shoot infinite amount of spears from below... So even if F/SN Rider is stronger in the air, once she go down its the end for her

Then again we don't know the maximum range of each spear throw or arrow attack, if it's juat a regular soldier then I assume it won't go far and fast enough to actually hit her. Don't forget the speed of the Pegasus when Bellerophon activated. So it's better for Zero Rider to use his other NP Gordius Wheel to fight FSN Rider.

Let's stop here since this can take years to discuss.

Visit this blog That I'm working with my friend
http://randomnessthing.com/

Dec 13, 2011 12:16 PM

#220

Offline

Sep 2010

1201

kaimax said:
Then again we don't know the maximum range of each spear throw or arrow attack, if it's juat a regular soldier then I assume it won't go far and fast enough to actually hit her. Don't forget the speed of the Pegasus when Bellerophon activated. So it's better for Zero Rider to use his other NP Gordius Wheel to fight FSN Rider.

Let's stop here since this can take years to discuss.

My opinion:

Dec 13, 2011 1:10 PM

#221

Offline

Dec 2007

4845

Thess said:

kaimax said:
Then again we don't know the maximum range of each spear throw or arrow attack, if it's juat a regular soldier then I assume it won't go far and fast enough to actually hit her. Don't forget the speed of the Pegasus when Bellerophon activated. So it's better for Zero Rider to use his other NP Gordius Wheel to fight FSN Rider.

Let's stop here since this can take years to discuss.

My opinion:

But more on the subject of Fate-Zero, I swear there's too much ego-stroking for Rider's NP when it has very obvious weaknesses. Rider isn't a magus so the whole thing is riding completely on the power of his army, facing off against Anti-Army attacks, especially EX-quality ones like Saber's or Archer's, and the NP is pretty much worthless. In other words, Rider can't defeat Saber (let alone Gil) with that little ego-stroking display. He has other tricks at his disposal though. Too bad Saber was never allowed Avalon back, that'd make her the undisputable strongest Servant in the war.

Dec 13, 2011 2:21 PM

#222

Offline

Sep 2010

1201

Leon-Gun said:

But more on the subject of Fate-Zero, I swear there's too much ego-stroking for Rider's NP when it has very obvious weaknesses. Rider isn't a magus so the whole thing is riding completely on the power of his army, facing off against Anti-Army attacks, especially EX-quality ones like Saber's or Archer's, and the NP is pretty much worthless. In other words, Rider can't defeat Saber (let alone Gil) with that little ego-stroking display. He has other tricks at his disposal though. Too bad Saber was never allowed Avalon back, that'd make her the undisputable strongest Servant in the war.

Neither Archer nor Saber doesn't have an EX anti army attack though (Excalibur is A++ and Archer could never actually beat that army. He can't spam like Gate of Babylon blades UNLESS he sets his reality marble, IIRC (he can create them but not as fast)- which needs an incantation and all while Rider doesn't-, and his reality marble isn't EX like Rider's, so it'll probably erode away for the strongest one). Rider's reality marble are quite exactly the doom for Archer or Shirou (since he's more at advantage when Gil spams his Noble Phantasm), while Rider's Servants are just Heroic Spirits who have the fighting experience rather than those weapons so he could mimic (while Gil was mostly an owner of weapons, these are actual fighters).

On the other hand, Ea is an EX weapon (it always crushed Excalibur easily when he fought with Saber, a fight Gil never took as seriously as with Rider). Avalon is another hax one but Saber doesn't have it. We don't get official stats for Nero, but her little Theater is "lol I do what I want inside of this RM because I rule!" seems pretty worthy for EX by how damn hax that sounds.

Rider already defeated Saber. Their battle was never about fists. Saber verbally and emotionally lost it. This was never meant to be a war but a debate.

ThessDec 13, 2011 2:37 PM

Dec 13, 2011 2:54 PM

#223

ChronosXIII

Offline

Mar 2009

2460

Wow, Gilgamesh is surprisingly calm this episode.

Oh shit, whole episode was basically Saber's entire reason for even existing being put down by Alexander. Wow, seems like her spirit was completely crushed.

DAT Noble Phantasm! A Reality Marble that summons the army you amassed when you conquered half of the known world at that time? Oh damn.

Looks like this is where Gilgamesh starts to show interest in Saber.

Also, there were quite a few derp faces...bleh.

Dec 13, 2011 5:18 PM

#224

VioLink

Offline

Jan 2011

2858

Thess said:

Leon-Gun said:

But more on the subject of Fate-Zero, I swear there's too much ego-stroking for Rider's NP when it has very obvious weaknesses. Rider isn't a magus so the whole thing is riding completely on the power of his army, facing off against Anti-Army attacks, especially EX-quality ones like Saber's or Archer's, and the NP is pretty much worthless. In other words, Rider can't defeat Saber (let alone Gil) with that little ego-stroking display. He has other tricks at his disposal though. Too bad Saber was never allowed Avalon back, that'd make her the undisputable strongest Servant in the war.

Gilgamesh was calm during Rider's reality marble for a reason. It wasn't becuase he knew Rider wouldn't attack him it was becuase he didn't see the army as a threat. Even if time was a issue for him to spam GoB he would be physically enough to hold off those infantry men and Rider.

[center]

Dec 14, 2011 12:38 AM

#225

Offline

Dec 2007

4845

VioLink said:

Thess said:

Leon-Gun said:

But more on the subject of Fate-Zero, I swear there's too much ego-stroking for Rider's NP when it has very obvious weaknesses. Rider isn't a magus so the whole thing is riding completely on the power of his army, facing off against Anti-Army attacks, especially EX-quality ones like Saber's or Archer's, and the NP is pretty much worthless. In other words, Rider can't defeat Saber (let alone Gil) with that little ego-stroking display. He has other tricks at his disposal though. Too bad Saber was never allowed Avalon back, that'd make her the undisputable strongest Servant in the war.

Gilgamesh was calm during Rider's reality marble for a reason. It wasn't becuase he knew Rider wouldn't attack him it was becuase he didn't see the army as a threat. Even if time was a issue for him to spam GoB he would be physically enough to hold off those infantry men and Rider.

And he can easily spam Ea if he was threatened. The reason the NP is EX is because of hos overwhelming it is but even if Excalibur is A++ it's still good enough to wipe out soldiers en-masse and destablize the Reality Marble. It's not all about ranks in Fate.

Dec 14, 2011 3:22 AM

#226

XxshizxX

Offline

Feb 2011

894

Episode totally overwhelmed by Rider.

Dec 14, 2011 4:43 AM

#227

Yanoflies

Offline

Oct 2009

5736

Assassin's last thoughts:

"I (we) should have just drank the wine ... :'("

Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines.

Dec 14, 2011 4:58 AM

#228

Yanoflies

Offline

Oct 2009

5736

Thess said:

Leon-Gun said:

But more on the subject of Fate-Zero, I swear there's too much ego-stroking for Rider's NP when it has very obvious weaknesses. Rider isn't a magus so the whole thing is riding completely on the power of his army, facing off against Anti-Army attacks, especially EX-quality ones like Saber's or Archer's, and the NP is pretty much worthless. In other words, Rider can't defeat Saber (let alone Gil) with that little ego-stroking display. He has other tricks at his disposal though. Too bad Saber was never allowed Avalon back, that'd make her the undisputable strongest Servant in the war.

Neither Archer nor Saber doesn't have an EX anti army attack though (Excalibur is A++ and Archer could never actually beat that army. He can't spam like Gate of Babylon blades UNLESS he sets his reality marble, IIRC (he can create them but not as fast)- which needs an incantation and all while Rider doesn't-, and his reality marble isn't EX like Rider's, so it'll probably erode away for the strongest one). Rider's reality marble are quite exactly the doom for Archer or Shirou (since he's more at advantage when Gil spams his Noble Phantasm), while Rider's Servants are just Heroic Spirits who have the fighting experience rather than those weapons so he could mimic (while Gil was mostly an owner of weapons, these are actual fighters).

On the other hand, Ea is an EX weapon (it always crushed Excalibur easily when he fought with Saber, a fight Gil never took as seriously as with Rider). Avalon is another hax one but Saber doesn't have it. We don't get official stats for Nero, but her little Theater is "lol I do what I want inside of this RM because I rule!" seems pretty worthy for EX by how damn hax that sounds.

Rider already defeated Saber. Their battle was never about fists. Saber verbally and emotionally lost it. This was never meant to be a war but a debate.

Pretty sure he was talking about Gil when he mentioned Archer.

Just wanna add that:

Whilst Rider's Reality Marble is EX, that is just the measure of the Reality Marble itself. An RM by itself does 0 damage, Rider summons an army of Servants with varying attributes all with an E rank Independent Action. Therefore their power measured as EX is only the collective.

Saber's whole life revolved around on anti-army battles, she basically single handedly won all the battles for her country. With Kiritsugu as a Master, her stats alone are fit as "the strongest servant". She has the strongest Holy Sword (anti-castle at that) that can annihilate 100's if not 1000's of Rider's soldiers at once. Meaning it's not just a question of ranks vs ranks. Perhaps even an attack ranked E++/+++ could match an EX blow head on depending on the circumstances.

Gil's anti-world Ea is an other story, that thing is imbalanced.

YanofliesDec 14, 2011 5:02 AM

Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines.

Dec 14, 2011 5:18 AM

#229

Gamaliel

Offline

Aug 2011

71

BROTHERS!!! Pictures of episode 12.

Dec 14, 2011 7:15 AM

#230

Offline

Jun 2008

1840

Gamaliel said:
BROTHERS!!! Pictures of episode 12.

Look like they've gotten rid of the derp faces. But still from all the episodes, why the derpfaces appears in this episode... sigh

Visit this blog That I'm working with my friend
http://randomnessthing.com/

Dec 14, 2011 8:00 AM

#231

Pessoa

Offline

Apr 2009

636

great episode

I take rider's side

Dec 14, 2011 8:10 AM

#232

Veethorn

Offline

Feb 2009

3436

Fantastic on every level! From the conversation between kings, to the noble phantasm of Rider, this was was simply phenomenal.

I guess assassin is one tricky bastard and still lurks somewhere.

Dec 14, 2011 8:31 AM

#233

LunarMoon

Offline

Jul 2007

155

Veethorn said:
Fantastic on every level! From the conversation between kings, to the noble phantasm of Rider, this was was simply phenomenal.

I guess assassin is one tricky bastard and still lurks somewhere.

To insan3soldiern: Sorry about that. I didn't think that anyone would care since you'd know anyway if the TV airing of the anime hadn't cut out the Kotomine-Tokiomi scene from the Episode 10 preview, in order to save time. I honestly think that they should have conveyed this bit of info more effectively since it vastly changes the viewer's perception of the scene. I decided to edit the post anyways, though, in case someone else cared. I suggest that you do the same, or else the edit won't have a purpose. The next episode looks delicious. Character development and drama-wise, it has three of my favorite scenes from the novel.

The alleged spoiler, by the way, was that:

LunarMoonDec 14, 2011 9:58 AM

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan!

Dec 14, 2011 8:53 AM

#234

Ston3_FreeN7

Offline

Jun 2009

15302

Why the hell do people need to outright say that Assassin is dead? Why can't we just find out for ourselves?

"Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job."

- Geralt of Rivia

Dec 14, 2011 12:50 PM

#235

PerlaNemesis

Offline

Jun 2009

870

Rider just keeps stealing the show. :D Really, he's my favorite servant of all time!

Dec 14, 2011 12:54 PM

#236

Kigen

Offline

Nov 2011

162

insan3soldiern said:
Why the hell do people need to outright say that Assassin is dead? Why can't we just find out for ourselves?

You can't come into a Fate/Zero thread without expecting spoilers. Many people have already read the novel, which is why they're saying it.

(FALC)|Profile|Anime

Dec 14, 2011 1:07 PM

#237

azuremask

Offline

Dec 2011

11

amirhoss said:
first it wasn't kirei idea it was tokiomi since he probably wanted to get rid of assassins too since he got gilgamesh and have some information about other servants(he might thought that assassin may become a possible threat later).second they weren't ordered NOT to attack the others so they could at least attack the other master plus if they wanted to see his NP normally one would think that they need to fight him alone so they needed to get rid of the other master(and trust me if they were able to just assassinate the masters like that even with orders they would have done it already)

Yeah assassin was going to be a threat when they found out that they was pawn to tokiomi plans and kirei have no desire to for the grail, they would kill tokiomi and kirei. Kirei use a CS for assassin to show themselves and attack rider, kirei didn't say rider and his master.Plus rider is already the strongest servant in the war so chances of him using his NP against other servant beside archer and assassin is small. Tokiomi isn't go risk archer to see rider NP in 1 on 1 match. Beside regardless of who idea it is Kirei is still, well was the master and the one that use the CS on assassin. Assassin is very loyal to their master in which if told to only observed they will only observed but will question their master loyalty if he doesn't desire the holy grail.

amirhoss said:
they could stand somewhere else like kiritsugu it is not like kiritsugu have stealth abilities u know.all they needed to do was to hide in a better place like kiritsugu or Karyia so they didn't need to go INVISIBLE xD.and HIDING means that u expect someone to see u that is why u hide so it doesn't matter if kiritsugu expected him or not and do not worry kiritusugu and mayia would managed to beat him if it would come to that with some plot device its not like that it didn't happened before for assassins

That spot was the best place for assassin since Kirei wanted to see the fight. If kirei wasn't seeing through assassin eyes than assassin would be invisible and kiritsugu would't have seen him. As for assassin not seeing Kiritsugu he just didn't see him. Kiritusugu even stated himself they wasn't prepared to handle servant and that why he didn't fire a shot unless he had to because assassin would hear it. Regardless if they shoot the assassin, the chances of victory would be almost 0 well mayia chance are 0.

amirhoss said:
and that is why i am saying he NEEDS many conditions to do something useful unlike others thats why he got beaten by rider in HF afterward but if it was another servant like lancer or archer they would fight normally like they always do so they have advantage over assassin.(only assassin and caster don't have freedom unlike the other classes)

True you need lot preparation but a least you know about your opponent fighting style without revealing yourself. You know where their live and type of defense they have. Any type of barrier your opponent have protect their home is useless against assassin. Like a true assassin wait until the right time strike like the servant left their master side since another servant came to challenge them. Take a while yes but you will win just stck to the style of fighting they in like assassin job is to assassinate when they opponent least expect.

As for rider in hf she was using prana from Sakura at that time that why she was so strong and even if you say she beat assassin, archer didn't do no better. Let her be use by shinji rider won't be able to beat nobody in the war. She had no choice but drain other people prana to survive since she wasn't getting any from shinji.

amirhoss said:
which didn't happen in Fate universe.for example he prepared himself for saber.but most other servants don't need that they just face their opponents.that is why assassin got beaten whenever he is not ready and that is why the other classes are superior becuz of this advantage.u are probably mistaking fate with assassin's creed !!!
what i am saying is assassins shouldn't even need these preparations.they were able to do assassination in their real life without any of these preparation and they assassinated kings or heroes but here they can't!not without special preparations...

How can I mistake assassin creed for fate, it more like you making a mistake. Assassin need preparation if they want to kill a someone like a king or a hero. You telling me an assassin can walk through the front door of house of a king, walk by his guards and say excuse me I'm going to assassinate you now. Real life assassin have find out where the king or a hero location, how many guards, the best time for king or hero to have they guard down, when they go out and come in, best place to hide from guard, how can I get close to my target, how can I kill my target, and my exit strategy after I successfully kill the target or failed to kill the target. So real life assassin have to do preparation or else they either end up dead or inside an empty room with no target.

azuremask said:

Nothing end well for most character the holy grail war.

amirhoss said:
at least most of them die without getting humiliated so much;) and most of them advanced like a real Heroic Spirit if u know what i mean

Let see the class avenger for the 3rd war was very special summon yet he got killed off so early with ease in the war to the point he was the weakest servant with the weakest NP, even he said his NP was useless. The fake assassin had humiliated death. Oh wait the KING OF HEROES GILGAMESH LOST TO A FAKE HERO.....KNOW THAT IS HUMILIATING. Yet the King still advanced like a real hero.

amirhoss said:
which in theory is suppose to happen but it never did in fate.do u rly think if assassin would have seen kariya that night he wouldn't attack?he DIDN'T see him so the masters can easily hide out of his reach.(don't tell me he was just focusing on the fight even kiritsugu was checking out the area so it doesn't need much brain cells to do that.it is alright for kiritsugu not to find karyia since he is not a heroic spirit but for assassin to fail in this aspect ...but u are probably gonna blame kirei on this one too even though most of the ppl know that kirei is one of the smart characters in the series and he probably checked it too with assassin's eyes and it is assassin's responsibility to help his master to find the others and should give his master the perfect view of the scene without standing in an obvious position and without getting discovered.that is assassin's responsibility not his master)

Kirei is the smartest character but to me not on FZ , like my friend said to me he gave away the golden ticket into winning the grail just to obey another person. Still Kirei is still responsibility for having just one assassin that will be visible in the area. Not everything will go according to plan and knowing your assassin is visible because of you using his eye to see that the master fault. Okay Okay assassin didn't see Kiritsugu, it not like all servant are perfect being that human can't pull one over on them. Did you forget about berserker that he was killed because of 2 master and a servant. Caster was about to lose to rin in UBW, and even gilgamesh the king of hero lost to a master, no a fake hero. Even with that said kirei wanted to see the fight if he hadn't then assassin would be invisible and if something was going to happen like archer losing his cool, then the assassin would have contact him. Beside any knowledge that the assassin would have gain in that fight would be sent to that female assassin who was near kirei and she would have told him.

Even the people agree with you about kirei, I bet people will agree with me about this, almost everyone thinks assassin is dead when it turn out kirei have about 80 more assassin and the masters had lower their guard throughout the ep since the first assassin death. ep 4-5 there was so many master that wasn't near their servant.... lancer master, berserker master, saber master, and archer master. That was open invitation to come assassinate me since kirei have plenty of assassin to keep eye on every master and servant and search for servant they should be near. At that time 4 of 7 master would be dead. Did the smartest character Kirei took that advantage no he did not. In fate stay night he was smart but FZ since he have no will of his own then no he not smart.

amirhoss said:
that is ur opinion and u are free to think that way but sadly that is not how it is if u ask me or most of the fans

While most of the fan only see servant fight 1 on 1 but never think about any strategy in the war. Assassin class was meant for that strategy especially the assassin in FZ but they summon by one of the smartest character 10 years to early. Assassin would be better of with Kiritsugu since he the only master so far that use strategy in this war and assassin would be able to futher support him with their ability Expert of Many Specializations and Librarian of Stored Knowledge.

Like I said the when come down to assassin the master just don't use them right.

azuremaskDec 14, 2011 1:14 PM

Dec 14, 2011 2:14 PM

#238

Yumekichi11

Offline

Oct 2010

9900

Gamaliel said:
BROTHERS!!! Pictures of episode 12.

Brother! Looks like Kirei and Gilgamesh are heating up their talks. Perhaps something is stirring up for a betrayal?

Nice to Maiya alive and well. Saber/Irisviel also seem to be at talks again of something serious.

While I do admit that Kiritsugu looks cool there.

- BLOG - My Club- Easiest way to reach the rest of my thoughts!

Dec 14, 2011 3:38 PM

#239

Offline

Sep 2010

1201

Yanoflies said:

Thess said:

Leon-Gun said:

But more on the subject of Fate-Zero, I swear there's too much ego-stroking for Rider's NP when it has very obvious weaknesses. Rider isn't a magus so the whole thing is riding completely on the power of his army, facing off against Anti-Army attacks, especially EX-quality ones like Saber's or Archer's, and the NP is pretty much worthless. In other words, Rider can't defeat Saber (let alone Gil) with that little ego-stroking display. He has other tricks at his disposal though. Too bad Saber was never allowed Avalon back, that'd make her the undisputable strongest Servant in the war.

Neither Archer nor Saber doesn't have an EX anti army attack though (Excalibur is A++ and Archer could never actually beat that army. He can't spam like Gate of Babylon blades UNLESS he sets his reality marble, IIRC (he can create them but not as fast)- which needs an incantation and all while Rider doesn't-, and his reality marble isn't EX like Rider's, so it'll probably erode away for the strongest one). Rider's reality marble are quite exactly the doom for Archer or Shirou (since he's more at advantage when Gil spams his Noble Phantasm), while Rider's Servants are just Heroic Spirits who have the fighting experience rather than those weapons so he could mimic (while Gil was mostly an owner of weapons, these are actual fighters).

On the other hand, Ea is an EX weapon (it always crushed Excalibur easily when he fought with Saber, a fight Gil never took as seriously as with Rider). Avalon is another hax one but Saber doesn't have it. We don't get official stats for Nero, but her little Theater is "lol I do what I want inside of this RM because I rule!" seems pretty worthy for EX by how damn hax that sounds.

Rider already defeated Saber. Their battle was never about fists. Saber verbally and emotionally lost it. This was never meant to be a war but a debate.

Pretty sure he was talking about Gil when he mentioned Archer.

Just wanna add that:

Whilst Rider's Reality Marble is EX, that is just the measure of the Reality Marble itself. An RM by itself does 0 damage, Rider summons an army of Servants with varying attributes all with an E rank Independent Action. Therefore their power measured as EX is only the collective.

Saber's whole life revolved around on anti-army battles, she basically single handedly won all the battles for her country. With Kiritsugu as a Master, her stats alone are fit as "the strongest servant". She has the strongest Holy Sword (anti-castle at that) that can annihilate 100's if not 1000's of Rider's soldiers at once. Meaning it's not just a question of ranks vs ranks. Perhaps even an attack ranked E++/+++ could match an EX blow head on depending on the circumstances.

Gil's anti-world Ea is an other story, that thing is imbalanced.

Oh, I thought they meant EMIYA.

Gil's Ea is a dealbreaker. Same with Avalon (but Saber doesn't have it right now).

Now for Saber... vs Iskander is difficult to say (if she didn't have Main Character Armor like in Ataraxia). Because Saber can be pretty damn dim sometimes in battles, her strategy is basically nil sometimes or filled with bad choices (she's not very resourceful). If the Lancers can make a fool out of her, Alexander the Great is a superior great strategist... who has commanded his army properly, well the results are tossed up.

Also it depends of the Masters... they have, Kiritsugu gives her higher stats but she's almost a Lancer in luck, Shirou cripples her but gives sher higher Luck, Rin's probably the best (but it's kind of Unfair for Iskandar since he has only Waver, maybe if they had the same balancey Master for prana).

Plus she's pretty demoralized against that RM. Rider won the war between them already, because it was never about their fighting, but a moral battle of past results (he accomplished what she couldn't): a debate she couldn't retort.

ThessDec 14, 2011 4:54 PM

Dec 14, 2011 4:55 PM

#240

john100

Offline

Jul 2009

65

10/10

Dec 14, 2011 6:09 PM

#241

Offline

Dec 2007

4845

Thess said:

Oh, I thought they meant EMIYA.

Gil's Ea is a dealbreaker. Same with Avalon (but Saber doesn't have it right now).

Now for Saber... vs Iskander is difficult to say (if she didn't have Main Character Armor like in Ataraxia). Because Saber can be pretty damn dim sometimes in battles, her strategy is basically nil sometimes or filled with bad choices (she's not very resourceful). If the Lancers can make a fool out of her, Alexander the Great is a superior great strategist... who has commanded his army properly, well the results are tossed up.

Also it depends of the Masters... they have, Kiritsugu gives her higher stats but she's almost a Lancer in luck, Shirou cripples her but gives sher higher Luck, Rin's probably the best (but it's kind of Unfair for Iskandar since he has only Waver, maybe if they had the same balancey Master for prana).

Plus she's pretty demoralized against that RM. Rider won the war between them already, because it was never about their fighting, but a moral battle of past results (he accomplished what she couldn't): a debate she couldn't retort.

Yeah I guess I should have cleared that up (since I was limiting miself to Fate Zero). While yeah he did won a battle of wits Saber is hard to defeat even when demoralized. The Lancers both had incredible anti-personnel NP's which were hard to beat but against an army of warriors all inferior to Saber, Rider would indeed need to demonstrate all of his skill in strategy just to corral her. She's lived a life where she's had to fight even when cornered after all. And I don't think I ever rejected his verbal victory, but matter of factly several people have tried to pin Rider as the Strongest Servant in this war when on paper Saber is hard to beat and Gil is just horribly unbalanced. Let's not even get into how utterly hax some of Berserker's powers are (his one true drawback being his uncontrollable use of Prana due to his madness).

And for someone who mentioned Assassin and how "weak" they are. Assassin have just never been used correctly. Assassin is a Class that thrives in strategy and trickery. In fact, they'd be perfect for a Magus killer of Kiritsugu's caliber and he himself said he would have wanted an Assassin simply because if used well they are hard to find and eliminate. For a non-conventional Magus like Kiritsugu having a Servant who doesn't fight, but rather specializes on killing Masters would be perfect.

Dec 14, 2011 7:25 PM

#242

Offline

Sep 2010

1201

Leon-Gun said:
She's lived a life where she's had to fight even when cornered after all.

Because of Avalon. After she lost it, she died in her next battle.

Most of the times she survived those fatal flaws was due to plot armor for main character

That's what I mean, the battles can't be decided so easily just because of hax weapons. It's up to other factors too: circumstances (Kirei would never beat Bazett in a fair fight, but he did it via backstab).

Gilgamesh being serious would mean an auto lose to anyone he's fighting against (uh except Prisma Illya!Bazett who is a freakin' monster who seems unfazed by the Gate of Babylon and whoever has Avalon). I think Arthuria and Alexander are about the same in power (after him), but their strengths are different for one other who wins in a serious battle with a proper Master for both (Waver and Shirou aren't... quite this) would make it entertaining and not one sided at all.

Archer version of Herakles and maybe Nero should be equally as powerful.

A real serious Kirei would make a good use for Assassin, too (not one following Tokiomi's 'brilliant' suggestions).

ThessDec 14, 2011 7:28 PM

Dec 14, 2011 8:05 PM

#243

Offline

Dec 2007

4845

Thess said:

Leon-Gun said:
She's lived a life where she's had to fight even when cornered after all.

Because of Avalon. After she lost it, she died in her next battle.

Most of the times she survived those fatal flaws was due to plot armor for main character

That's what I mean, the battles can't be decided so easily just because of hax weapons. It's up to other factors too: circumstances (Kirei would never beat Bazett in a fair fight, but he did it via backstab).

Gilgamesh being serious would mean an auto lose to anyone he's fighting against (uh except Prisma Illya!Bazett who is a freakin' monster who seems unfazed by the Gate of Babylon and whoever has Avalon). I think Arthuria and Alexander are about the same in power (after him), but their strengths are different for one other who wins in a serious battle with a proper Master for both (Waver and Shirou aren't... quite this) would make it entertaining and not one sided at all.

Archer version of Herakles and maybe Nero should be equally as powerful.

A real serious Kirei would make a good use for Assassin, too (not one following Tokiomi's 'brilliant' suggestions).

I do agree about the plot armor though, and I'm actually a little sad they never really show Arturia's more legendary wisdom in battle (she did die but that's more a twist of fate, similar to other fateful deaths like Gawain's brothers). Truthfully, she actually fights a bit more smartly in Zero, as seen in the Lancer fight where you see her instincts in action. But yeah, she does have a lot of plot armor for obvious reasons.

Tokiomi probably just realized the potential danger to him that an armor of Assassins would do if Kirei were to go rogue. But yeah, Tokiomi is rather unflexible in his designs, especially considering the strenght of his Servant. It's too bad for him all this little display did was made Gil even more disastified with him.

Dec 14, 2011 8:58 PM

#244