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| THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE. ---------------------------------------- Ugh, this was both bizarre and disgusting. However, the case itself is interesting. Interesting to see Kuro Tokage this episode though. Is she a sadist or what?! Wait never mind. The episode shows that she is in a prison of sorts; well maybe not exactly but more like behind bars.  Definitely imo one of the more entertaining episode of this season. |
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| Kagami is Twenty Faces? WHAT? |
| I still don't like the first three episodes, but I'm glad that this episode at least was decent, if not out-right good. I don't know if it's because the previous cases were just that bizarre or what, but the build up here was better, and although I pretty much figured out the culprit by the halfway point, it didn't feel like it came out of nowhere this time. So hopefully the show keeps this up and makes up for its terrible start. |
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| NO matter what way you look at it, Kagami was doing the right thing. I hope he stays in the show |
| Shirayuki= Most Perfect Female MC ever |
That Kobayashi ass though..  Hashiba getting flustered and looking away was hilarious! He knows he wants it, but can't say it yet. So, Black Lizard is generally a sadist, but turns into a masochist for Akechi only. That moment when she peed herself though.. Pretty disgusting. Somehow, I wasn't really surprised to see Kagami being revealed as the Twenty Faces. The question is, why did he become that? Above average episode. That fat MF should've gotten killed in a cruel manner, and I still hope it comes to pass before this show ends. |
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abyss333 said: NO matter what way you look at it, Kagami was doing the right thing. I hope he stays in the show My thoughts exactly. I always felt like Kagami would end up as a baddie for some reason but maybe later on because he looks like an important character |
| An excellent and very interesting case, but once again the answers were basically pulled out of thin air with no possibility for the audience figuring it out themselves. Unless I zoned out for a moment, we never saw any plaster on Kagami's shoes. In any case, I hope Twenty Faces has an active role in the series in future episodes: he's way too interesting to only appear once. Also, Akechi should have totally let him kill that Watanuki fucker from last week. Also, the autopsy section was once again ridiculous and totally unnecessary. |
| It was an ok episode. I could tell Kagami was the killer from the moment he first appeared in the episode because he was acting so weird. I was thinking "Come on! Don't let it be him," because it was so obvious, but it was in the end and it made me a little disappointed.. 3/5 |
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| End of episode reveal not effective. It was obvious from the beginning. Also, this kind of development feels kinda early? |
| Kagami being 20 faces makes sense in the end. Kobayashi has a nice ass :p |
 All credit goes to Sacred. |
| No. The comedy bit with Kobayashi and Hashiba does jack all for the story and adds zilch to their character, the interrogation with Mrs. Masochist provides nothing relevant to the case, Autopsy-chan is more mood whiplash, and the mystery itself is pure, unadulterated shit from busty top to trap bottom. Before, the aesthetics were just emphasizing the important players, but now it's highlighting whatever it damn well pleases or whatever fits the budget; the TV channels and random slaves have figures, but one lone guy guarding Mrs. Masochist doesn't? No. Seriously. How the Hell does this show keep getting worse? |
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| Well that plot twist was... predictable and expecting. Though it's funny how he was so similar to Light. You know, wanting to kill people who deserved to be punished, etc. And I'm just wondering why the "Horror" genre was removed from this anime? Would anyone care to explain? |
Bibi_Punk said: No. The comedy bit with Kobayashi and Hashiba does jack all for the story and adds zilch to their character, the interrogation with Mrs. Masochist provides nothing relevant to the case, Autopsy-chan is more mood whiplash, and the mystery itself is pure, unadulterated shit from busty top to trap bottom. Before, the aesthetics were just emphasizing the important players, but now it's highlighting whatever it damn well pleases or whatever fits the budget; the TV channels and random slaves have figures, but one lone guy guarding Mrs. Masochist doesn't? No. Seriously. How the Hell does this show keep getting worse? Lol, guess someone's not paying attention. The highlighting only happens when Kobayashi is there to show that Kobayashi is interested in that person. It doesn't matter if they're important to the story or not. Additionally, we can recognized the police man by his hat, but some people can't recognize what the fuck she's kicking if they only show the outline. Plus, I don't think the mystery part of the show is really pronounced right now, cause they're only establishing characterization. For example, in this episode, they're hinting about an event that happened 3 years ago between Akechi and the 20 mask guy. |
whitetragedyJul 23, 2015 2:08 PM
F*ck you Lerche |
| I guess some people are not used to western style storytelling and the concept of character arcs lasting through multiple storylines, because that is clearly what this show is doing. There are ongoing mysteries and character development that are serialized through episodic cases that are connected to each other via the serialized elements. Hell, again, that's clear inspiration from Sherlock which also used separate cases and completely separate storylines with the ongoing mysteries persisting through them. So instead of a thief who anounces the heist before doing it, this 20 Faces announces a vigilante murder before comitting the said act of vigilantism. Guessed something like that would happen when the thief role was delegated to Shadow Man last episode. It does explain why Akechi found Kagami's phonecalls interesting despite not giving a shit for the missing girls case and it also does explain why Akechi said Kagami might not be a nice person in the first episode. Love the build up like that. I already guessed Kagami might have vigilante aspects to him due to the knight symbolism in the OP and his reaction to the end of previous episode. Either Way I am guessing Kagami is not the REAL 20 Faces(as in not the one Akechi has a history with), I am betting that since Shadow Man is the one who can assume multiple identities, the 20 Faces of this modernization will be one anonymous identity assumed by multiple perpetrators. Black Lizard, Irene to Akechi's Sherlock was introduced also and it certainly met my expectations. Its nice to see the show set up the plot elements in advance and establish characters and its nice to see the characters prominent in the novels slowly enter the modernized version in fittingly bizarre and macabre ways. Then again, it is no more bizarre than the first introduction of modernized version of Irene Adler. 5/5 for the episode. |
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danieltortoisee said: An excellent and very interesting case, but once again the answers were basically pulled out of thin air with no possibility for the audience figuring it out themselves. Unless I zoned out for a moment, we never saw any plaster on Kagami's shoes. In any case, I hope Twenty Faces has an active role in the series in future episodes: he's way too interesting to only appear once. Also, Akechi should have totally let him kill that Watanuki fucker from last week. Also, the autopsy section was once again ridiculous and totally unnecessary. Yes it was in the episode as it was already said. But in ANY case. You're taking it in the wrong way. It's a bit unorthodox as a mystery, but you as a watcher have different informations than the ones Akechi has, and the scene with the old guy is a really big hint to the watcher that allows you to guess both WHY Kagami is like that and who Twent faces is. The autopsy part is just something about tastes. There is no problem with something being over-the-top, and since it's not plot-important it isn't supposed to waste everything else. It was an ok episode. I could tell Kagami was the killer from the moment he first appeared in the episode because he was acting so weird. I was thinking "Come on! Don't let it be him," because it was so obvious, but it was in the end and it made me a little disappointed.. 3/5 Then again, he was weird from the very beginning.... His "phone calls from his sister" that Akechi was making fun of being a very good example of it. Well that plot twist was... predictable and expecting. Though it's funny how he was so similar to Light. To be fair, most characters sound really stupid with their "WHY DOES HE SHOW VIDEOS!?" when it's something so easy that anyone having seen ONE anime can guess it perfectly. Then again easy doesn't mean bad. And Bibi, you apparently don't know how to write a good story. Even a mystery has other things that the case period,otherwise NO CHARACTER could have ANY KIND of characterization and that's it. The most important part is that this characterization must be here but must not interfere with the plot. Comedy isn't forbidden "just because it doesn't add anything to the story". Otherwise, pretty much every mystery would be completely plain with time. ; the TV channels and random slaves have figures, but one lone guy guarding Mrs. Masochist doesn't? No. Seriously. How the Hell does this show keep getting worse? Yeah, one was a background character which could be absolutely anything, the other wasn't since the fact that the medias and specialists are ""corrupted""is a "plot point" or at the very least an important one, and the salves aren't the focus of the scenes they are in. The shadows are here to create an "anonymity", which is quite useless when someone is meaningless and anonymous to begin with. That, and that's also a matter of atmosphere and a purely artistic thing. But in any case theere wasn't really a problem regarding this. [quote]Plus, I don't think the mystery part of the show is really pronounced right now, cause they're only establishing characterization. For example, in this episode, they're hinting about an event that happened 3 years ago between Akechi and the 20 mask guy.[quote] In any case the mystery part is quite "strange". Which doesn't mean that it is bad, but you are supposed to think out of the box to make sense of a lot of things. It's still definitely a fair mystery though. Just an unorthodox one. And I wouldn't take it in any other way since it works pretty well like that. |
Takuan_Soho said: danieltortoisee said: we never saw any plaster on Kagami's shoes. Yep, it was there this episode. Akechi noticed it when Kagami left the room, there were white traces on the floor by the door. Akechi then immediately went and crushed up some more of his sleeping pills. Huh. I guess I somehow zoned that out, or maybe I didn't notice it cos I wasn't watching in HD. Well, that's a bit better then, as it shows the answers are being popped out of nowhere like before. |
Takuan_Soho said: danieltortoisee said: Huh. I guess I somehow zoned that out, or maybe I didn't notice it cos I wasn't watching in HD. Well, that's a bit better then, as it shows the answers are being popped out of nowhere like before. No, the have always had the evidence, not overwhelming because they length and need to show other things, but they have been there. I though have a different and greater question for you: Who says that any of these "mysteries" are the real mystery? well, they clearly are though. but I guess what you mean is probably a classical/golden age mystery, or an "orthodox mystery" to take back umineko calls them. In other words Ranpo is definitely fair when there is a mystery (ep3's case wasn't one, or rather, the culprit itself wasn't implied in the mystery, in order to take an example) but it just uses different rules compared to the classical golden age ones. You can't solve it in the same way as a golden age mystery, you have to think and check outside the box. |
| Man some how I knew it was kagami. He said he was pretty busy and all that and soon afterwards I had a gut feeling it was him. Black lizard's obsession for akechi is really interesting :3 I wonder how she got behind bars and what he did to her |
[center] *>.>[Spoiler][/spoiler]<.<* [center] |
Takuan_Soho said: willardhwright said: well, they clearly are though. but I guess what you mean is probably a classical/golden age mystery, or an "orthodox mystery" to take back umineko calls them. No, I meant something very different. That we shouldn't think of these mysteries as "mysteries" but rather as "clues". ha, yeah, I see what you mean. Personally I was talking about the "genre" of the serie as a whole, hence the misunderstanding, sorry. |
whitetragedy said: Lol, guess someone's not paying attention. The highlighting only happens when Kobayashi is there to show that Kobayashi is interested in that person. It doesn't matter if they're important to the story or not. Additionally, we can recognized the police man by his hat, but some people can't recognize what the fuck she's kicking if they only show the outline. Plus, I don't think the mystery part of the show is really pronounced right now, cause they're only establishing characterization. For example, in this episode, they're hinting about an event that happened 3 years ago between Akechi and the 20 mask guy. No. willardhwright said: Yeah, one was a background character which could be absolutely anything, the other wasn't since the fact that the medias and specialists are ""corrupted""is a "plot point" or at the very least an important one, and the salves aren't the focus of the scenes they are in. The shadows are here to create an "anonymity", which is quite useless when someone is meaningless and anonymous to begin with. That, and that's also a matter of atmosphere and a purely artistic thing. But in any case theere wasn't really a problem regarding this. No. willardhwright said: And Bibi, you apparently don't know how to write a good story. Even a mystery has other things that the case period,otherwise NO CHARACTER could have ANY KIND of characterization and that's it. The most important part is that this characterization must be here but must not interfere with the plot. Comedy isn't forbidden "just because it doesn't add anything to the story". Otherwise, pretty much every mystery would be completely plain with time. There are four elements to a narrative: interesting characters, relevant characters, interesting story, and tight story. This show has proven inept at the last three, and its cast has barely anything going for it to add real weight. Bashing is all it deserves. |
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| Oh lord, that booty. I liked this episode. I wonder if there is going to be an episode that focuses more on Kobayashi and Hashiba's friendship. |
Bibi_Punk said: whitetragedy said: Lol, guess someone's not paying attention. The highlighting only happens when Kobayashi is there to show that Kobayashi is interested in that person. It doesn't matter if they're important to the story or not. Additionally, we can recognized the police man by his hat, but some people can't recognize what the fuck she's kicking if they only show the outline. Plus, I don't think the mystery part of the show is really pronounced right now, cause they're only establishing characterization. For example, in this episode, they're hinting about an event that happened 3 years ago between Akechi and the 20 mask guy. No. willardhwright said: Yeah, one was a background character which could be absolutely anything, the other wasn't since the fact that the medias and specialists are ""corrupted""is a "plot point" or at the very least an important one, and the salves aren't the focus of the scenes they are in. The shadows are here to create an "anonymity", which is quite useless when someone is meaningless and anonymous to begin with. That, and that's also a matter of atmosphere and a purely artistic thing. But in any case theere wasn't really a problem regarding this. No. willardhwright said: And Bibi, you apparently don't know how to write a good story. Even a mystery has other things that the case period,otherwise NO CHARACTER could have ANY KIND of characterization and that's it. The most important part is that this characterization must be here but must not interfere with the plot. Comedy isn't forbidden "just because it doesn't add anything to the story". Otherwise, pretty much every mystery would be completely plain with time. There are four elements to a narrative: interesting characters, relevant characters, interesting story, and tight story. This show has proven inept at the last three, and its cast has barely anything going for it to add real weight. Bashing is all it deserves. and the show have all of them, sorry for you. Also, having secondary characters is just as needed. You don't make an interesting story in a world where something like 4 people live. Interesting story and tight? Again, it's here. And it becomes more or more obvious with time since it's the kind of narrative with an OVERALL story build over time. Since it's pretty much the point of it, judging the show's interest from episodes separated from one another doesn't work; it isn't House MD where everything can be skipped for most of the story, here the plot becomes morerelevant with time. And this episode was quite important about this since it introduce the whole twenty faces thing that will be a lot more important later; the opening alone should make it obvious. And yeah, what you are bashing IS a part of "interesting characters". The silly scenes and humor which are the subject are a part of what make the characters interesting. Everything doesn't have to be related to the case as long as it doesn't contradict it. A mystery novel is closer to a math book than another type of novel, but it still ISN'T a math book, so of course some things that feel out of place will be here. That's how life is to begin with. Also, how is some mood whiplash bad? It's the opposite. A mood whiplash well done highlight the other parts of the story too. If it's well done, and IMO, it is, it's not a problem at all. You have the right not to like it, but the humor or the atmosphere aren't bad things. How they are executed may be bad, and hence be a problem, but the "irrelevant to the case", "humor", or "mood whiplash are NOT bad things per se in a mytery. Everything else is left to your preferences. It just doesn't make something bad by itself if it's well done. [Edit: and add to this what Takuhan said about most things even if some are closely related to what I said. It definitely have relevant characters. Just because some characters are "irrelevant" it doesn't mean that all of them are.] |
willardhwrightJul 23, 2015 4:21 PM
Takuan_Soho said: I can't think it being a pure coincidence that the first 20 faces murder was a dismembering murderer being dismembered nor that Kobayashi is about the same age now as when Akechi first met 20 faces and that the Black Lizard knew all about his appointment. Kobayashi figured that there is something more there as well. Also: 1) The first time we see Kobayashi he is following a butterfly into a dark alleyway. And in this episode Akechi has the "Butterfly Memo" which most likely relates to the event in his past. 2) The case that Kobayashi was involved in and started this story WAS about a murderer being murdered. With one of first guesses being that the killer wanted the world to know the teacher was a killer. |
AhenshihaelJul 23, 2015 4:26 PM
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| I knew Kagami was going to be involved in something like this soon enough. It was well done imo, loved the episode. Damn that masochist/sadist girl was amusing to watch, hope they explain her past with Akechi soon. |
willardhwright said: And Bibi, you apparently don't know how to write a good story. Even a mystery has other things that the case period,otherwise NO CHARACTER could have ANY KIND of characterization and that's it. The most important part is that this characterization must be here but must not interfere with the plot. Comedy isn't forbidden "just because it doesn't add anything to the story". Otherwise, pretty much every mystery would be completely plain with time. There are four elements to a narrative: interesting characters, relevant characters, interesting story, and tight story. This show has proven inept at the last three, and its cast has barely anything going for it to add real weight. Bashing is all it deserves. No. Please go back and review what the actual four elements of a narrative really are. If you really understood the four elements of a narrative, then you would know that you can't judge a narrative unless you've read the whole story. At a glance this guy's writing looks smart, until you realize it's all bullshit. |
Takuan_Soho said: I am curious how the news stories are going to play into this, while I find them funny on their own (a parody of the "experts" always brought in to fill 24 hour news time), I think they will prove to have some meaning eventually. I find the show quite interesting about this, since it's also a big take that toward society in general and particularly the japanese one. Criminal rate in Japan may be better than ours, but a lot of surveys showed that the japanese themselves have a VERY hard time trusting them and find them incompetents, another fact that you can see in a lot of other japanese things (ace attorney being a good example since it's pretty much a satyre of the whole japanese legal system). Aside from the parody from most TV shows, this show also have quite a lot of "take that" toward abuses when it comes to legal system, the whole meaning of the "law" thing, and japanese perception of the law enforcement officers. Let alone how they don't "hunt the correct person". It's not the main point of the story and probably not a keypoint in the mystery (...well, who knows, given HOW MUCH emphasis there is on this, cf the news reports we see in this episode, it could very well be relevant to Akechi's or someone else's backstory alter) bit it IS quite interesting and definitely a main theme of the anime; it's been here since ep1 with mister class rep thinking that akechi's privileges are unfair etc. No. Please go back and review what the actual four elements of a narrative real are. If you really understood the four elements of a narrative, then you would know that you can't judge a narrative unless you've read the whole story. At a glance this guy's writing looks smart, until you realize it's all bullshit. Well of course if THAT was everything that would mean that a book is good/bad, that would made for some pretty boring stories. The problem is that, well, while I agree, that there ARE some "criteria" that are important in a story, but that are too complicated to be summed up by some kind of easy flowchart easy enough to sum up in 2 lines and that's it. |
willardhwrightJul 23, 2015 4:41 PM
| Ew did that lady really piss herself wtf |
Nothing257 said: it was a good episode. i did not like how they found out that it was him that fast, i wanted it to go on for another 4-5 episodes so that it would be interesting. i also don't like the fact that when they was telling him how they found out they expected him to just give up and not put up a fight. would have liked it if twenty faces escaped. 3/5 I think that's related to the fact that he is probably not the "real one". Given how Akechi is obsessed by him, if he was the real one or at the very least the one interesting Akechi his reaction would have been a lot more "interested" / "violent". |
| Wow, I should have expected that twist sooner, it all adds up nicely, though. Good episode it was quite something. |
| This series continues to bring the awesomeness week after week....I gotta say that this has been the most interesting case yet! 20 Faces without a doubt managed to make himself seem pretty damn menacing but what I liked the most was his methods.....I instantly screamed vigilante when I found out about his ideals and personally even though he is an extremist, him killing criminals that actually deserved to be punished didn't really bother me at all (Especially when he was going to kill that fucking piece of shit scumbag fat fucker from last week) As the episode neared its end I figured out who the killer was but honestly I'm surprised that I didn't realize who it was sooner.....I'm really interested in seeing the next episode because after what Black Lizard said, I'm thinking that Kagami is the same 20 Faces killer from 3 years ago and that Akechi caught him/figured out who he was and for some reason he covered it up....Or Kagami could just be copying the real 20 Faces Killer Either way, we're all in for a treat next week when we find out the answers.....Love the theories going on in this thread too btw. This episode was simply amazing, 10/10 P.S. I think that I need mental help because I was completely turned on by everything that Black Lizard did and said....Holy fuck she's so damn hot lol....Total masochist too xD |
| I doubt kagami is the real twenty faces. looking at the OP, I guess twenty faces is the main baddie in this series. also, the guy with the mask in the OP was wearing diff clothes. cool ep I guess. the peeing was disgusting, but k. |
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| I really want to love this anime but for example stuff like that part with Minami or dat ass shot pretty much makes it a little bit less enjoyable. It's still ok and entertaining but ... yeaaaah. |
DatRandomDudeJul 23, 2015 6:38 PM
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| It was an OK episode, though to my taste it was rushing through things too much again. The general idea the director had, invoking a retro-style of 90s anime storytelling, really shines through with all the fanservice and very loud and flashy direction choices. I would like to like this more, but the general pace and the general shrillness of many scenes just ends up making me find it obnoxious. It IS a very anime'esque anime, taking almost every cliché from the book, so maybe this just isn't for me. On the other hand, if we took out some of the fanservice and instead gave that time to built a little more atmosphere, maybe that'd be nice. CookingPriest said: I guess some people are not used to western style storytelling Hell, again, that's clear inspiration from Sherlock which also used separate cases and completely separate storylines with the ongoing mysteries persisting through them. *sigh* could you please stop pushing the idea that this is inspired by Sherlock? Japan has a a much more booming mystery-scene than most Western countries, they don't even need to look for us to get an idea like this. |
Waiting for: God Eater (PSP) 私が、探偵だからよ。 |
| This episode was...decent. I know this show isn't going for total realism, but I can't say I was surprised at who Twenty-Faces was, as well as how he punished his victims. Furthermore, the trap antics of Kobayashi, despite what others may say to defend(?) them, don't seem to add much to the show. The peeing thief was disgusting as well. 3/5. I can't say I'm too pleased at the series' progress. There haven't been any truly interesting cases except perhaps the first one. Let's hope it gets better. |
| He should of let that guy die!!!! Kagami copying 20 facnes?? |
seizonsha said: Even thought i agree with you that Japan has those resources i read some of Edogawa's works and i cant tell that some stories, cases and even some characters are inspired by Sherlock.It was an OK episode, though to my taste it was rushing through things too much again. The general idea the director had, invoking a retro-style of 90s anime storytelling, really shines through with all the fanservice and very loud and flashy direction choices. I would like to like this more, but the general pace and the general shrillness of many scenes just ends up making me find it obnoxious. It IS a very anime'esque anime, taking almost every cliché from the book, so maybe this just isn't for me. On the other hand, if we took out some of the fanservice and instead gave that time to built a little more atmosphere, maybe that'd be nice. CookingPriest said: I guess some people are not used to western style storytelling Hell, again, that's clear inspiration from Sherlock which also used separate cases and completely separate storylines with the ongoing mysteries persisting through them. *sigh* could you please stop pushing the idea that this is inspired by Sherlock? Japan has a a much more booming mystery-scene than most Western countries, they don't even need to look for us to get an idea like this. |
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