PandoraHearts
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Orulyon said: Specially through this pic: Speaking of the "mysterious hands" theme, Gilbert has one too: It's a female hand, so could it be symbolic of some influence on Gil by the WotA too? Vincent did say that "everyone became weird because of Alice," and he specified Gil by name. Another thing about the "dark Jack" pic... they have black roses. Jack usually has yellow roses (symbolizing "jealousy" in Victorian times, but "friendship" today): The only other time I recall him having black roses around him was the "drugged" Jack under dark Alice: Jun loves her Victorian flower symbolism, and especially roses. Black roses are symbolic of death, hatred, and farewell. They're used at funerals but can also mean rebirth. In the picture above, it is dark Alice giving Jack black roses, likely symbolic of whatever she's so pissed off at him about. Him being unconscious and tied up, combined with Alice's domineering posture, makes me think there's some manipulation by her going on. The black roses in the picture suggest she's not just being horny but vengeful. You also see black roses of enmity(?) between Oz and Leo here: So what would the black roses in the picture of Jack and Oz mean? A contrast with Oz's white roses? Funerary/rebirth roses for Lacie? In the other picture of Oz there are blue roses around him. It's a theme shared by dark Alice, Gilbert, and Vincent: Blue roses mean mystery or attaining the impossible. They are believed to be able to grant the owner youth or grant wishes (chain contracts??). In PH they are common to the three main players from 100 years ago (Alice, Gil, Vince, Oz/Jack). Oz, Gil, and Alice also have monarch butterflies (of death/rebirth?), usually blue, associated with them: Oz also shares the white rose symbolism of humility, purity, and innocence with Alyss and Lacie. Dunno if any of these connections mean anything, but thought I'd throw them out there. |
Neiru2013Sep 29, 2011 10:18 PM
Neiru2012 said: Dunno if any of these connections mean anything, but thought I'd throw them out there. Let me say u did a great job in the interpretation of meaning of the roses:) Well, everything is possible now that Mochizuki sensei trolled us, so from now on, all of us pay attention to every detail and possible symbolism. I do believe, that not in all pics, but in some pics, her colors and objects have meaning. In fact, now im kinda obsessed with it. Jun really caught my attention now and im even re-reading the manga, always hoping to see a hint i didnt see before, LOOOL. One thing is certain. Jun really does love roses. and that was even showed in PH soundtrack! Lacie´s song "everytime you kissed me" speaks about roses the entire time. Who carried roses in the manga was always Jack and never Glen, so...Lacie´s song was dedicated to Jack and vice versa. IN FACT I JUST FOUND OUT WE ALL HAVE BEEN TROLLED BY JUN LONG TIME AGO. SINCE THE ANIME. SHE AND YUKI KAJIURA TROLLED US SO MUCH. i feel betrayed...again. |
OrulyonSep 29, 2011 3:53 PM
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| Great catch! Did that song come out before or after the Sablier arc in the manga where we see "Glen" meeting Lacie in the streets? I remember that after episode 22 or something aired, I caught up in the manga towards the end of the Sablier arc, and of course the anime was in production long before then and presumably the soundtrack was too. That song played at the very end of the anime, right? I wonder when it was written. I doubt Jun told Kajiura about the Jack plot twist. Maybe she just wrote it to be about Glen and Lacie. Glen did write the Lacie song, but "gathering the roses" sounds more like Jack's rose garden. |
| yeah i think the song played in the end of the anime (2 years ago), dunno if it was before or after Sablier arc since i only started the manga this year T_T Well, if Jun did not tell Kajiura, then at least she gave her enough hints so could Kajiura could write the "Kajiurago" lyrics which describe Jack´s and Lacie´s first meeting perfectly. What i find amusing is that Yuki Kajiura made all the lyrics in english except that part, so nobody bothered in translating, but then i went to search for translation and i get a perfect scene of Jack and Lacie meeting in this chapter XD We definitely have been trolled. lol. |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| That song... I... I.... ugh. Hm, I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I've always wondered about this pic. I know it's really old and everything. Also, why is Alice bloodstained black rabbit? Sorry, I missed that part. |
deadoptimist said: Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes. |
Neiru2012 said: Rufus said that he decoded a book written by Arthur Barma, eye-witness to the Sablier tragedy. Arthur wrote that Jack defeated Glen and Arthur then placed a curse on his soul and trap him in sleep by dividing up Jack's body into 5 parts and putting them in sealing stones. Obviously at least the part about dividing up Jack's body to use in the sealing stones is wrong. It might also be a bit vague who "his soul" is. This is further complicated by the fact that Oz feels extreme discomfort around the sealing stones, although this can be explained by the fact that the sealing stones "can suppress the power of chains," and the B-Rabbit in particular (Alice can't even move if she approaches them) has some kind of power related to the sealing stones. The sorcerer's mother told him that Jack said so, referencing the B-Rabbit even 100 years ago. Jack was there to ask the sorcerers to stop Glen for him. He does not appear to want the sealing stones destroyed, which reinforces that they are a curse to restrain Glen's power. The Baskervilles are now going around destroying the sealing stones in order to re-awaken Glen. However, it is unclear what exactly the sealing stones are sealing off. The "Glens" are able to communicate with Leo, and say that the reason they don't do so more often is because he voluntarily rejected them, refused to listen, refused to see, and denied their existence, although is apparently still able to subconsciously call on their help. But the "Glens" do seem to have some memory problems. They can't even remember Humpty Dumpty's name. Maybe that's part of what is being sealed off by the curse: Glen's memories, knowledge and/or specific powers. Leo feels the need to destroy the sealing stones in order to ask Glen information directly, which suggests something is hindering him doing so now. Oh thank you, now I see, so then probably Jack was sealed, and omg then Oz body was used probably for that or something is about that because when he was a baby his father taked him an unknow place, and nobody knows what happened there... And now Jack is awaked...O___o But poor Leo, if he really was Glen then he was betrayed(and I think that's why he doesn't want to really remember). But then what about Gil and his brothers memories?O_o Hmm perhaps brainwashing... And I think that Oz was very similar to Jack wasn't accidental, remember that Gil had thought the first time of Jack that he is Oz. |
Barbara-chanSep 30, 2011 10:22 AM
Barbara-chan said: Oh thank you, now I see, so then probably Jack was sealed No, no, I'm pretty sure Glen was sealed. XD (At least by the sorcerer's sealing stones.) Barbara-chan said: But then what about Gil and his brothers memories?O_o Hmm perhaps brainwashing... As far as we know, Vince remembers everything. Gil has amnesia. So far there's no direct evidence that their memories were brainwashed, although some of their behavior probably was: Gil to protect his Master and Vince to stay quiet about Sablier. You can tell by the color of the speech bubbles. Adult Gil shows the influence of the brainwashing here (same color as the speech bubbles before), and adult Vincent shows the influence here (color of the background is the same as the speech bubbles before). Vince was brainwashed by Miranda Barma, and she uses the same hand gesture over Vince's face as the hooded lady did with Gil in order to do that. We don't yet know who the hooded lady who brainwashed Gil was, but she looks as much Barma as Baskerville. GracefulDownfall said: Hm, I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I've always wondered about this pic. I know it's really old and everything. Ah, cool! Maybe B-Rabbit has dominance over W-Rabbit or something? Dunno. GracefulDownfall said: Also, why is Alice bloodstained black rabbit? Sorry, I missed that part. I've always assumed it's because she's violent, but there's probably more to it. Might reinforce the idea that she had a role in the Sablier tragedy, who knows. ^^ Yep, Alyss and Break Kevin. ^_^ |
Neiru2013Sep 30, 2011 5:27 PM
| I don't think Lacie is Alice's mother... I think Alice IS Lacie. Their names anagram into each other, didn't anyone else notice? My personal theory is that Jack (maybe with Glen's help?) found a way to raise her from the dead that involved turning the abyss dark, and Glen, being a good friend, tried to pick up the pieces, and that included sheltering Alice. And maybe Lacie is a Baskerville. Someone said she had Leo's eyes and were quite correct, although that could be a coincidence. I also believe now that it was Jack who is the bad one in this story, and that all evils trace back to him. I'm sure Vince remembers everything. The way he talks to Gil about his master is very convincing. When I was first reading it I remembering hesitating at the point when he says 'the baskervilles and their kind?'. It felt like he was surprised Gil would say that about them... it could've been any number of things, but it is a possibility. And now all those times when Oz went into weird freak out mode around Alice make sense... it was good old Jack kicking in. I'm still freaking out from these surprises... GAH!!! I was reading earlier posts and now I feel gullible... I almost always take things at face value... might have been because I was in love with the series and reading quickly and not giving myself thinking time... but still. I never expected any of this. Except maybe Barma, but that doesn't really factor in to the important twist. |
ToshiMonsterSep 30, 2011 4:58 PM
| I re-read the manga and this is some of what I found (now and not before xd) - Previous hints that Glen was Gil's master: 1. Ch.07 2. Ch.13 3. Ch.27 (first complete appeareance of Glen (I think) PD: But there's a scene (Ch.38) when Gil asks Jack if is him the master he failed to protect and he says "No", with that I immediately thought that Glen was the real master, but then Jack says "No, you protected me" xd - This caught my attention: 1. from Ch.18 when Cheshire seems to be talking about Alice while she was still alive. 2. Ch.31 What draw my attention here is the "THEY", is like Alice didn't know Glen either - And finally... Ch.44 look who's there: Jack! and no mention about him, that scene is from when Oz almost killed Marie but was stopped by Alice. And that's it. About the mysterious hands behind Oz, I think they look like woman's hands, could it be a Barma? or even more unexpected! could it be...a Rainsworth?! xd Also, is funny this: the whole thing is Pandora vs Baskervilles, but then... (team) Pandora: Nightray + Vezzalius + Barma + Rainsworth (team) Baskerville: Baskervilles (duh) + Duke Vezzalius + Duke Nightray + Duke Barma so in the end the thing is Baskervilles + Nightray + Vezzalius + Barma vs Rainsworth? xd and I don't think that Rufus is really betraying Cheryl... |
 ヽ(*ﾟдﾟ)ノ My virtual covers: http://youtu.be/HhhSjhBMY2A http://youtu.be/3Qu6_ov-r4Y http://youtu.be/k20A5LQPJfQ |
Neiru2012 said: Yep, Alyss and Break Kevin. ^_^ if that is indeed Alyss then the girl between Glen and Jack in the september's calendar is also Alyss note the eyelashes and the neck flower thing also similar dresses. Also i wanted to ask whether there ever was anything mentioned about the Mother of Oz |
| As much as I love PH this chapter just ruined my day. Jack has always been my fav character from PH so this chapter pretty much broke my heart ;____; |
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Neiru2012 said: Barbara-chan said: Oh thank you, now I see, so then probably Jack was sealed No, no, I'm pretty sure Glen was sealed. XD (At least by the sorcerer's sealing stones.) Barbara-chan said: But then what about Gil and his brothers memories?O_o Hmm perhaps brainwashing... As far as we know, Vince remembers everything. Gil has amnesia. So far there's no direct evidence that their memories were brainwashed, although some of their behavior probably was: Gil to protect his Master and Vince to stay quiet about Sablier. You can tell by the color of the speech bubbles. Adult Gil shows the influence of the brainwashing here (same color as the speech bubbles before), and adult Vincent shows the influence here (color of the background is the same as the speech bubbles before). Vince was brainwashed by Miranda Barma, and she uses the same hand gesture over Vince's face as the hooded lady did with Gil in order to do that. We don't yet know who the hooded lady who brainwashed Gil was, but she looks as much Barma as Baskerville. Ok I should reread the manga I'm a bit confused now, but thxXD |
Dreamtime said: Also i wanted to ask whether there ever was anything mentioned about the Mother of Oz I've seen very few mentions of Oz's mom, the only time I really remember hearing about her was when the theory popped up about Zai switching her baby with Oz at birth. In my ever turbulent mind, I don't believe Jack is the source of all evil. I think he is a manipulator, and crazy as heck. I guess the thing that really gets me is when he calls Glen a 'hindrance'. You called him your friend, your best friend, and then you turn around and say he is nothing more than a hindrance, a mere obstacle in your path. Grrr.... The two major questions I have currently are about two people- Miranda Barma and Shelley Rainsworth. What have we learned about the two ladies? I don't think Barma hasn't showed up but when she was manipulating Vince, but she was there then and that casts her as a very important player in this game. We don't know anything about her, but maybe she's been a hand guiding this struggle? In Vince's memory, Jack knew her, but didn't know much about her... And Shelley Rainsworth is obviously a very important person to the Rainsworth household, but what happened to her? Is she dead? We've heard her mentioned so many times, but they've never said much about her in all actuality. And have we ever seen Zai Vessalius's face completely? If not, they does mean we will have another nasty surprise about him? I'm also upset that I didn't realize just how vague everything Jun-sensei said in the manga was. She uses pronouns constantly instead of proper names, leaving us to assume one thing, when another is actually stated.This Page and this one plus the next three say everything in such terms that I assumed it was Glen, but now I can see it applied in such a different light. Jun-sensei seems to be a very masterful manipulator too, with the way she leads us to assumptions without saying anything. Is Jack like this too? Or is Jack a straight out liar? |
ToshiMonsterOct 1, 2011 9:30 AM
Dreamtime said: Also i wanted to ask whether there ever was anything mentioned about the Mother of Oz Yes, she was assassinated. The Nightrays are suspected, but Break says there's no proof... and that's pretty suspicious, especially considering that Zai was working with Duke Nightray. Oz's mother being assassinated is also mentioned in another flashback. I'll try to find it and edit it in later. (Okay, I gave up trying to find it but I swear it's somewhere in the early volumes, dammit.) Barbara-chan said: Ok I should reread the manga I'm a bit confused now, but thxXD Re-reading the manga is always a good idea, hehe, but what are you confused about? ^^; arrozykamehameha said: - Previous hints that Glen was Gil's master: 1. Ch.07 2. Ch.13 3. Ch.27 (first complete appeareance of Glen (I think) I'm still not 100% sure if it's Glen or Jack that Gil was flashbacking about. Most likely Glen, but him and Jack have very similar sleeves so it's hard to tell from the flashback pictures. Here's my theory about it (see "Regarding Jack Slashing Gil" spoiler tag of the post). |
Neiru2013Oct 1, 2011 11:54 PM
| AHHH Im soo confused!! Jack has been deceiving everyone till now? Is Glen the victim in all of this?? What exactly is Gil gonna do now that he's remembered what really happened?? AHH my head hurts from the excitement. |
Neiru2012 said: Re-reading the manga is always a good idea, hehe, but what are you confused about? ^^; So my mother language is not english, and PH manga was a bit hard for me to read, and I missed some parts of the manga(and my memory is vanishing too...^^"), so that's why some parts is WTF for me. I started to re-read the manga(in my mother language, but just some chapters avalivable), and OMG I was remembered wrong for the first chapter too, I thought that Oz lived in that house(and I thought at that time it was weird that he found knew places too), but no he was just there about 2 daysO_o If I remember correctly I started to read the manga when the anime was aired. So now that I re-reading a lot of thing is getting clear for me. I think if I read in this way I know more things after(just like when I read the DGM manga, I remembered everything, and I correct my friends who read it from years). |
arrozykamehameha said: - This caught my attention: 1. from Ch.18 when Cheshire seems to be talking about Alice while she was still alive. 2. Ch.31 What draw my attention here is the "THEY", is like Alice didn't know Glen either This caught my attention, too. The 'they' doesn't necessarily refer to Glen, although that seems like a good option to me. I LOVED your flower symbolism, Neiru2012. I think it's fascinating, and probably relevant. I'm especially curious about the blue roses, as they seem to be very heavily associated with Gilbert(who I adore). The thing that seems important about them to me is that they are impossible to find, and there for represent things impossible to attain. I'm still putting thought into this one~ I also think the top of this page is important. At first glance, I thought it was Alice talking about Echo, but now I understand it is the other way around. With the moving of Oz's seal, she becomes transparent (or at least, probably because of the seal). Maybe this has to do with Neiru2012's earlier theory that Alice, B-Rabbit, and Jack are connected? Neiru2012 said: And wow, my brain didn't really register that Jack had a double-speech bubble when he said "hindrance." I guess because it was blacked out and I thought it was just an aesthetic way to frame the darkness of the speech bubble, but it could very well be an indication of some kind of Abyss power like when Baskervilles and chains talk. That'd be interesting. Kinda makes me wonder if either Jack or Lacie might be the B-Rabbit. Jack's presence gets stronger as the contract seal progresses, after all, and so does his influence over Oz in B-Rabbit mode. This moment also seems to suggest a binding link between the three (and Oz). There are few times when Jack directly contradicts himself, and one of these happens in this chapter. Since the beginning, Jack has been telling Oz to save his best friend, Glen, but on this page he tells him to kill him. Does this mean Jack has been lying? Or, maybe, (once again calling on Neiru2012 theories) he goes crazy when influenced by B-Rabbit powers? Although, further evidence that Jack might be a liar is evidenced by the fact he directly calls Gilbert his cute little servant at one point, but in this chapter refers to him exclusively as Glen's. But 2 pages before calling Gil his servant, he tells Gil the very literal truth- that he faced Glen and was stabbed in the back, which is more creative truth telling than lying. When trying to determine what happened between Glen and Jack, we can't forget this speech. Since we also know that Lacie was sacrificed for the Abyss, does it not stand to reason that maybe her body was given to contain the Will of the Abyss? I'm thinking there may be something about rebirth related to this, too. After his speech, Glen talks about Oz there were several suggestions before this that something was wrong with Oz, specifically when Cheshire and Break both ask him where he is. We still don't understand why Oz's existence is a sin, though we assume it is do to with Jack. |
ToshiMonsterOct 2, 2011 8:45 AM
ToshiMonster said: I LOVED your flower symbolism, Neiru2012. I think it's fascinating, and probably relevant. Thank you! ^_^ ToshiMonster said: Since the beginning, Jack has been telling Oz to save his best friend, Glen, but on this page he tells him to kill him. Does this mean Jack has been lying? I don't remember Jack telling Oz to "save" Glen. He did tell Oz to "stop" Glen. And he has been consistently adamant in saying that Glen and the Baskervilles are dangerous, want to repeat the tragedy of Sablier, and must be forcibly stopped. I saw that as a call to war, not reconciliation. Glen was and is Jack's best friend, but Jack had a huge disagreement with Glen, and whatever happened 100 years ago made him feel that reasoning with Glen is not an option if Jack wants to accomplish his goals. We've seen what happened when Jack tried to talk things over with Glen. But I'm slowly re-reading, so maybe there's other places where Jack does to save Glen? Or do you have a scene in mind? ToshiMonster said: Although, further evidence that Jack might be a liar is evidenced by the fact he directly calls Gilbert his cute little servant at one point, but in this chapter refers to him exclusively as Glen's. I'm still not 100% sure about this It could be that either a) Gil used to be Jack's servant before getting transferred to Glen after Glen chose him as his next body, b) Jack really does think of Gil as his unofficial servant since Gil and Vince spent a lot of time with Jack, Gil even served him tea (plus we have several images of Vince thinking of Gil's happy past as being with Jack, whereas Gil seems a lot more hesitant with Glen), c) Jack likes Gil a lot because of "b" and wants to lure him away from Glen, d) Gil was always exclusively Glen's servant and Jack is using Gil's partial memory to his advantage, e) <insert your own reason here>. I think a combination of "b," "c" and "d" is the most likely. "It's fine if it doesn't leave a scar..." ahahah, oh Jack, you're adorable. XD But seriously, this shows how intentionally light a slash Jack actually gave Gil, just as he emphasized in chapter 65, whereas Gil still has a scar from Oz's slash despite his healing powers. ToshiMonster said: When trying to determine what happened between Glen and Jack, we can't forget this speech. Since we also know that Lacie was sacrificed for the Abyss, does it not stand to reason that maybe her body was given to contain the Will of the Abyss? I'm thinking there may be something about rebirth related to this, too. I think that speech is very important evidence of Glen's motives and goals, but there's a lot it doesn't tell us. We don't know how long ago the Abyss became screwed up. The urgency in Glen's tone makes me think it was a recent occurrence but, at the point he gave this speech, Lacie was dead, probably for years. Jack's reply to Glen here shows his worry that Glen was planning to use Alice to restore harmony to the Abyss. Although it's possible that the Abyss was in disarray for years, and that Glen tried to use Lacie to placate it before, failed, and was now going to try using Alice. (Jack would have a problem with this.) ToshiMonster said: After his speech, Glen talks about Oz there were several suggestions before this that something was wrong with Oz, specifically when Cheshire and Break both ask him where he is. We still don't understand why Oz's existence is a sin, though we assume it is do to with Jack. Yeah, I think it has to do with Jack. So far we've been told that "Oz Vessalius is the container hiding the existence of Jack Vessalius. If the container is broken, then Jack will resurface, and the Intention of the Abyss that chases after him will further interfere and twist this world." Or so Lottie said Zai said. Why does the Will of the Abyss chase after Jack? Because of the intense love and hatred she has for him. We don't know what made her hate him (aside from hints that Jack picked Black Rabbit over her), but we do have a pretty good idea of why she's in love with him. That being the result of Jack spending a lot of time with her when she was locked in Glen's tower. So I think this is where it started. I think Glen tried to keep the WotA contained in a neutral environment where she wouldn't develop a personality or desires of her own. Because, as he said, the WotA shouldn't have them. Then Jack comes along, sweeps her off her feet, and you now have an Abyss goddess chasing after one guy and warping reality in the process, both through the intensity/insanity of her feelings and through actually altering it for her own goals. This is a big problem for the world, and it is a problem that's based purely on Jack existing. I this is the "sin" that got transferred to Oz, but there's gotta be more to it than that. There's Something "Wrong" With Jack He has at least 5 different personality aspects: Friendly Jack, who is cheerful with Gil (not counting the slashy part :P), Alice, and pre-Sablier Glen. Probably an Oz-like tendency of appearing happy while repressing pain. So far so good. Angsty Jack, who is crying during Sablier tragedy, feels horribly bad for killing Glen, is sad for what happened to Gil and Alice, and talks about the his own weakness. Completely understandable. Manipulative Jack, who is willing to take advantage of people to further his goals, whether through creative truth-telling or lying. Dunno what to think of this one yet; will depend on his motives/goal. God-like Jack. This is where things get weird. Jack has an overwhelming aura of transcendence, power, and awe. It's liquid and flowing, while at the same time terrifying, inspiring reverence and obedience in others. Reim thinks that it feels like Jack sees through everything. Where the hell did Jack pick up something like this? He doesn't feel so imposing in any of the flashbacks. That watery sensation and the ripples around him seems like a strong Abyss influence. I'm sorta thinking he either fused with or is being manipulated by something incredibly powerful. This leads us to... Homicidal Jack, or what I call "B-Rabbit High," because it seems like a drug to me... like someone hopped up on crystal meth who doesn't register pain or consequences of their actions. And, seeing his euphoric reaction to Lacie (whether real or imagined) in this chapter makes me think that Lacie is the real drug, if she's not the B-Rabbit itself. Some weird combination of his feelings for Lacie and the enormous power of B-Rabbit sends him over the edge and he goes on a bloodthirsty rampage. Probably happened during Sablier tragedy, too. We know that normally people can't handle the Black Rabbit's power, that's why Oz had to have it sealed until Jack taught him how to use it. Was there anyone to seal it for Jack? Maybe he did get consumed by it in some way. But maybe he's in a kind of transcendent power high from whatever is generating his Abyss aura in general, and he gets some kind of special crazy wisdom/insight from it. Also, there's something strange about Oz's blood. He's probably not fully human either, which may go back to Zai doing something to Oz when he was born. I don't think Oz got switched, btw, if only because he looks so much like the other Vessaliuses, but who knows. |
Neiru2013Oct 3, 2011 12:44 AM
| Here are my replies to people from before 3rd rollback. ^_^;; @Liinah Liinah said: There was a chapter where Glen remembered Lacie and thought: "... the night she found me" Or something like that. Then why is Jack the one at the street? ;w; ... Okay, this may not be exactly as i said, but here's the page. I always thought it was Glen's memories. Yeah, also this + next page. I think that, given this chapter, we're supposed to infer that it was Jack saying those things. And this makes sense, considering that the stuff on page 32 is probably a continuation of Jack's thoughts from page 31. But note that Jack says Lacie was an important person to Glen, too, and this is reinforced by the fact that Glen wrote the song that Lacie liked to sing (cross-verified by Lottie's flashback here). Both Jack and Glen cared about Lacie. Liinah said: I wonder once again why Alice said here: "These tears... are not mine.". Makes me think that was Lacie crying for her new body's memories. I don't think it's strange for Alice's memory to be in the song-watch, since Jack has taken Alice to Lacie's grave and played the watch's melody there. When she said "these tears are not mine" I took it as her dissociating herself from 100-years-ago Alice and focusing on who she is in the present. I thought it was a little similar to Oz with Phillipe's dad. Oz acts very angry and emotional, but all the time thinking that this isn't like him. Even Alice notices that Oz was acting weird. Of course, Oz's extreme reaction make sense given his relationship with his father, but I still wonder if there's more to it, like if part of it relates to something Jack experienced with his own family, which could help explain why he ended up on the street. There's always the potential for several layers of feeling/memory when it comes to those with trauma from 100 years ago. @ToshiMonster ToshiMonster said: So what if Jack is nothing more than a creative truth teller? His manipulation only makes him more like Oz who often gets his way by whispering a few words in someone's ear and pretended to be Jack. Yeah! Oz is very clever, and extremely manipulative when he wants to be. To add to the list you mentioned, he tricked bullies to save Phillipe, and likes teasing Gil in particular. He can also be rather sinister, such as when he lured in the W-Rabbit for a hug before shooting it in the head. ToshiMonster said: Does it say WotA hated Jack? It is only Oz who begins this hate, and even after this WotA chases after him. In the scene you mentioned, Oz is the one who made that decision, without Jack's influence at all. While I can't think of proof right now, I do think we have enough evidence to infer it. I really don't think that the Alice in the first chapter would've freaked out as much as she did over Oz asking her "what are you?" if it was just her reacting to Oz: "I will not forgive you... never... EVER!!" "I will always find you... wherever you may hide!" "Are you afraid of me?" I think the connection between her reaction to Oz and her feelings towards Jack is evidenced by this scene, where dark Alice rushes up to hug Jack and he asks her who she is, just as happened with Oz. I also take the black rose symbolism of dark Alice on top of Jack as evidence of some intense grudge - probably related to whatever happened at Sablier ("the day that Alice lost everything"), aside from her dying, that she tried to lock away in Cheshire's dimension. I think that Oz's relationship with Alice is heavily influenced by Jack's memories. While he does not recognize Alyss, just as Jack didn't recognize dark Alice, he does feel a familiarity around B-Rabbit Alice, he defends her without knowing why, and he protects her without knowing why. In chapter 8, W-Rabbit once again talks to Oz as if he were Jack, referencing all the things she used to do with Jack and calling him her beloved, and desperately wanting to know why Oz is so fixated on B-Rabbit. But Oz once again does not know why. His feelings of closeness to Alice and his insistence on being at her side are coming from somewhere else. But W-Rabbit keeps on pressing the issue, saying "She doesn't deserve you, yet she managed to take you away from me." I agree that it's not 100% clear if this is a new development starting with Oz or if it goes deeper back to Jack. But given the intensity of W-Rabbit's feelings on the subject, given the way she talks to Oz, given that she's trying to get through to Jack, and given that Oz himself doesn't know where his feelings are coming from, I currently interpret this as a conflict that goes back to whatever happened between Alice and Jack 100 years ago. ToshiMonster said: Also, Glen might not have liked that, but he still is seen with the two of them. (or is that not him? Jun-Sensei's playing with perspective make me VERY paranoid...) Heheh, note how he has a hand on his sword. "WHAT DID YOU DO TO MY CLOISTERED VIRGIN?!?" Jack also did things Glen wouldn't approve of, such as inviting Alice to come to his house to play and Glen wouldn't have to know (oh, Jack, you creepy pedo XD)... and Alice did run away from the tower at one point. ToshiMonster said: Maybe they are even more alike than that though. Maybe they both have someone else influencing them? When Oz went into his 'homicidal' mode at Isla Yura's mansion, his eyes turned red. Jack most certainly doesn't have red eyes, and I don't believe anyone else does besides Vincent and Break (please correct me if I'm wrong here). So this hints at another player in this, someone else who is influencing Oz, and maybe Jack. Oh nice, I totally forgot about the eyes! It seems like Oz's eyes turn red every time he goes into B-Rabbit mode and, at least in the anime, his eyes turned red when Alice took over his body when they first made the contract. I attribute the red eyes to B-Rabbit's power, and it's a power that overwhelms the personalities of both Oz and Jack. I think there's more to the B-Rabbit than we currently know. But maybe it's someone else, or some combination of theories. In the "mysterious hands" pictures, the imagery is pretty consistent. Oz has male hands with the ring reaching for him, Jack has a female hand reaching for him. For right now I think this means that Oz is being influenced by Jack and Jack is being influenced by Lacie, making a Lacie -> Jack -> Oz chain. Of course, I can't say for sure if the hands reaching for Oz are Jack's, since we've never seen him with a ring. But, to invoke an argument from ignorance, note that we can't see Jack's left hand in that picture, so we don't know if he wears the ring when in his dark outfit guise. To explain why Jack might have a ring would involve wild speculation that I can't back up at all nor do I necessarily believe. One scenario could be that Jack was secretly married to Lacie back in the day, and hid the ring when interacting with others, such as Glen. Jack wearing black could be a funerary sign of mourning for Lacie, in which case he would wear their ring. This way the ring also doubles as Lacie's influence over Jack so, if the ringed hand is Jack's, then it reminds you that Oz is being influenced by Jack who is influenced by Lacie. The ringed hand is probably something else, though... I have no idea. ToshiMonster said: Neiru2012 said: I really wanna know how Jack and (dead) Glen got out of the burning mansion. Especially considering the whole thing fell into the Abyss. Doesn't Glen order the Tragedy of Sablier? I can't find the page right now, but if I do I'll edit... I'm pretty sure Lotti told us this at some point, that they were merely following there master's orders.... Yes, Glen orders the tragedy of Sablier. But he was still inside the burning mansion while the massacre was taking place, fighting with Jack. Vincent also says that, at Sablier, he saw Jack heavily wounded and covered in blood from fighting with Glen. And then the whole thing got dropped into the Abyss, which is how Vince and Gil ended up in the Abyss. However, we also have shots of Glen looking on Sablier from the rubble outside of the Abyss zone: here and here. We know that the fight between Jack and Glen came in at least 2 parts, so maybe the 2nd or 3rd part took place outside the mansion. @Orulyon Orulyon said: Everything you say makes sense, i just love reading it^.^ Thanks again! :D Orulyon said: Oz says " the reason why we all got together, and the reason i could not leave Alice alone...this all had to be a ridiculous fairytale written by the hands of someone". I wonder then, who is that someone? Probably Jack. Yeah, I've been wondering about that too, though I typically wrote it off as an inside joke about Jun. I agree that Jack knows a lot about what's going on and seems to have an upper hand in the goings on right now, but if he's being manipulated by something else, then it would be that something else writing the story, ne? Orulyon said: I always thought in that scene. How is it possible for "Alice" to deeply HATE and LOVE Jack? It proves something is wrong. Two Alices. It hints that one of them loved him dearly and the other one hated him deeply. Maybe, but we see both love and hate from the same Alice. I subscribe to the idea that "there's a thin line between love and hate" so I didn't think it was unusual. Her behavior exhibits the yandere pattern of love that can swing to insane homicidal jealousy. Orulyon said: Also, while re-reading i realized something. It was not just Alice who tried to kill Oz, but Oz did thought in killing Alice. In this scene, he shows a true obsession for her just like Jack has for Lacie. He says "I will destroy everything that makes you suffer (...) i will destroy YOU Alice!" [Yen press translation]. which keeps making sense to me, because he seems to be totally influenced by Jack´s feelings! And also, Alice did wanted to forget, so she shattered her memories. The thing she most wanted to forget was "there" in Cheshire´s dimension. Yeah, he does that again at Yura's mansion, and I think Jack coming out to kill Yura shortly after that implies it was at least partially his influence. And Oz seems to remember going on a similar killing spree in Sablier, too. If we didn't have these scenes to back it up, I'd think that Oz becoming destructive in Cheshire's dimension was Cheshire's influence, since he shows this desire too. But this way it looks like Jack's intense feelings were influencing both Cheshire and Oz. This was probably a big part of what Alice was trying to lock away in that dimension. Seeing Jack/Oz in that state makes her unbearably sad. Orulyon said: Although i still totally LOVE Jack, i really do believe he had a master plan since the very first beginning. during the entire manga, Also it is so mysterious to me why Jack keeps telling to Oz that he "has the right to use B-Rabbit´s power". and Jack totally masters B-rabbit´s power. Or why Break kept asking to Oz quotes like "where are you in the world Oz?" or "you dont have to become someone else. What´s your name?" I think Jack's extensive knowledge of B-Rabbit's power could be explained by him probably contracting with it 100 years ago. He couldn't have had a chance against Glen's uber chains if he had none himself. Maybe he did try to, which would explain how he got so bloody, but was then visited by B-Rabbit, contracting healed his wounds some (like it did for Elliot), and he came back after Glen. I am eagerly looking forward to flashbacks of Jack walking through Sablier in B-Rabbit mode, with its scythe and chains whirling around him like a shield of blades. *_* (I would also settle for a picture of chibi Jack running around with a huge scythe while laughing maniacally) But I'm still not convinced that Jack masterminded too much 100 years ago, though I think he was being manipulated then too. I think he was being manipulated by Alice and the Barmas, but maybe by something else. Whatever the case may be, he was not happy about anything that happened at Sablier. And the whole time he was questioning Glen: "Why would you do something like this... Answer me, Glen!!" And confirmation of that scene this chapter: "Why are you doing this?" "Answer me, Glen!" I think this ties into Jack trying to reason with Glen about Lacie (+next page), and asking whether Glen planned on using Alice. To me this shows that whatever role Jack had in the Sablier tragedy, his actions would've been in reaction to something he learned about Glen's plans, and not anything he was planning for a long time. Orulyon said: And finally im sharing a random funny thing i found in the manga, lol. ~ Page 13, chapter 25, Leo reading a book, scanlator translation: "Now Joseph is in an intense situation! Never thought Georgie was the murderer. this is such a surprise". Now see what changes in the official translation: "Josephine is in trouble right now! Never thought Jackie would be the culprit. what a surprise". i loled with Jackie being the culprit. XD (and i checked out the raw version. It really has written in it " Jackie". Since although it was very hard to see the tiny tiny hiragana, i recognized the first two which mean " Ja" (ジャ), for which I presume that the official translation is the correct one. I just find it funny so i had to share. After all Leo was reading a book where "Jackie" was the culprit, looooool. Ah yeah, I noticed that too when re-reading. XD Not sure what to think of it yet, but I've always wondered about the significance of inserting Holy Knight into the series. So far it has proven valuable to set up Elliot's hate self-sacrifice and the irony of his death, but there may be more to come out of Holy Knight. |
| Still was there a part in the manga about how Jack and Glen met.That must also be looked into |
Dreamtime said: Still was there a part in the manga about how Jack and Glen met.That must also be looked into there was? which chapter? my memory sucks, lol. i only remember then meeting several times, but none for the "first time". shameless post of a vid i made about this chappie~~ |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| OH. MY. GOD. T-THAT WAS SHOCKING. H-H-HOW COME--I WASN'T EXPECTING THAT! S-S-SO, THE ONE WHO KEPT SAYING "BEFORE I MET YOU" I-IS... IS JACK?! OH MY GOD. |
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| Mindfucked Jack you little piece of shit . |
| Actually glad that nepal is facing disaster |
| I just recently read this manga. This chapter is awesome ! Nice climax. And oh no. Jack is the real bad guy here. How could he do this ? |
 - barely alive - |
| What the actual fuck. I knew Jack seemed to be too nice in a manga filled with twisted characters, but this? This makes me want to re-read everything until now (and I will!) just to see how everything turns out if I replace Glen's POV with Jack's POV. I'll be honest, I was expecting a normal shounen with a bit of twist here and there, but this is a mind fuckery of epic proportions. |
Kagami_Hiiragi said: Idc if you think its weird, I have a life and friends and an income of money. |
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gedata said: |
| What the actual fuck? Glen might actually have been the good guy all along and Jack was evil? Holy damn, I didn't see that coming... |
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| What the fuuuuuuuuck? |
| My brain is...goddamn these plot twists @_@ I thought Glen was the one obsessed with Lacie but it turns out it was Jack dammit!!! I guess Jack being a hero is all a lie after all. Goddamn u Jack, you really had to ruin that moment between Oz and Leo. I feel like Rufus is not actually bad and still hiding something.. Lacie looks just like Alice, so sweet! |
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| I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON Holy shit Gil's real master is Glen? and Jack is their real enemy after all? Duke Barma really is a traitor? If Oz uses too much power of the B-rabbit will Alice fade away? this is so fucking good i can't even |
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| This chapter was completely and utterly insane, like.....like what the fuck Pandora Hearts, just..what the fuck. |
| Holy shit, I was NOT expecting that!! By the looks of how things are going, I have some guesses on why Jack caused the tragedy. After Lacie's death, Jack wanted to "reunite" with Lacie by sacrificing Sablier into the abyss. That's the only plausible theory I can come up with. 5/5 |
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| Holy fucking shit. That plot twist! I don't see it coming at all! At first I thought Barma's betrayal was crazy, but now Jack?! The very same Jack that is supposed to be the embodiment of good and love, that same hero??? DAMN! |
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| Okay...what? WHAT? WTF just happened!? That is some damn plot twist!! I don't think I've ever been this shocked while reading something. This just overturned every perception of the story I have so far. I mean, yes, Jack did seem too good to be true and I had a bit of suspicion but the fact that everything uptill now is a lie, I did not see that coming! It was such an emotional moment between Leo and Oz, I really hope he won't die. And poor Gil, how will he handle all of this? And Alice seemed to be transparent...ahh I'm going to read the next chapter, hopefully all will be explained. |
  I want to know what it is, this 'sin' they say I've committed. |
| Holy. Fucking. Shit |
| People weren't kidding when they said this series has some insane twists. Holy fucking shit that was nuts. |
| WHAAAAAAAAT???? I reread the chapter 2 times and it's crazy, the 2nd time I tried to pay a little more attention to the panels and dialogues and... OMG |
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| I remember reading somewhere on the forums long ago that this manga has a legendary twist. I thought I'd seen it with the revelation of Elliot & Leo last volume, but it's safe to say this is probably what that was referring to. I'd considered the possibility that Jack was withholding some information, but it never crossed my mind that the truth was totally inversed from what we'd learned to this point. It's still too early to read Jack's intentions, but I'm starting to wonder if he was purposely lending Oz his powers to speed up the incuse process. It's great how cryptic the story has been so far. I was focusing more on piecing together other theories that this sucker punched me as hard as Jack impaling Leo (oof!). On another note, the OST of Vanitas no Karte works so well with this manga. I've had it on repeat for the past 2 volumes and the suspense has been superb. |
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Reply to Zekkenshin
I remember reading somewhere on the forums long ago that this manga has a legendary twist. I thought I'd seen it with the revelation of Elliot & Leo last volume, but it's safe to say this is probably what that was referring to. I'd considered the possibility that Jack was withholding some information, but it never crossed my mind that the truth was totally inversed from what we'd learned to this point. It's still too early to read Jack's intentions, but I'm starting to wonder if he was purposely lending Oz his powers to speed up the incuse process.
It's great how cryptic the story has been so far. I was focusing more on piecing together other theories that this sucker punched me as hard as Jack impaling Leo (oof!).
On another note, the OST of Vanitas no Karte works so well with this manga. I've had it on repeat for the past 2 volumes and the suspense has been superb.
It's great how cryptic the story has been so far. I was focusing more on piecing together other theories that this sucker punched me as hard as Jack impaling Leo (oof!).
On another note, the OST of Vanitas no Karte works so well with this manga. I've had it on repeat for the past 2 volumes and the suspense has been superb.
| @Zekkenshin while vns has good ost, I def recommend the original track composed for this story by yuki kaijura. Id say its much better and fits perfectly especially Lacie |
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