The Honor Student at Magic High School
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Aug 7, 2021 7:58 AM
#1
THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE. ---------------------------------------- Ah, of course it's a Mahouka show with school competitions and rivalries. Third High's Airi and her group is also introduced and tbh, she has quite an ego. Mari looks like one of the top contenders and has a big fanbase. Felt bad that she got injured. Typical Mahouka-style episode, nothing really special imo. |
Aug 7, 2021 7:58 AM
#2
As expected, that guy not happy about onii-sama as technician. Main girl jealous about him talking w. other girls. Though she knows he can repair himself. Party before competition begins. 3rd school sees main girl as enemy immediately. Onsen (fanservice) time. Competition time and onii-sama found out the reason for accident. Twintail girl felt inferior and training, then meeting onii-sama. Accident again. Change of plan. w. main girl attending serious competition. |
I ♥ Two Syaorans from Tsubasa RESERVoir CHRoNiCLE and TRC!!! |
Aug 7, 2021 9:42 AM
#3
Its unfortunate but ingrained beliefs like those possessed by Moriyama will take some time to change. Its nice that after the ice was broken that the girls turned out to be welcoming to Tatsuya though. The ladies of Third high sure have a lot of confidence. Airi's intro of herself and Shiori and Toko sure was rather brazen. The bath bonding experience was pretty nice. Still Airi and her friends aren't lacking in determination and aspirations either it seems. Honoka sure had a close encounter with Tatsuya lol. The accident that Mari suffered though sure was horrible but at least the injuries were only minor. Though it did serve to make their contest with third high much more intense. And in line with this will be the first battle between the girls of both schools in the form of Miyuki's upcoming debut in mirage bat where she will face Airi. Overall a pretty fun ep that did well to showcase the girls of Third high in the form of Airi's team as well as the ninth schools competition itself. Looking forward to seeing how Miyuki fares against Airi next week. |
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Aug 7, 2021 9:50 AM
#4
Woah they actually showed Masaki being interested in Miyuki. Honestly, can't wait for them to get their asses handed to them by First High. I hope they show more reaction to Tatsuya defeating Masaki it was a pretty big deal. |
Aug 7, 2021 9:54 AM
#5
Aug 7, 2021 10:02 AM
#6
The girls from Third Hight got introduced and that Airi girl has a nasty personality. Masaki being love-struck over Miyuki was funny. |
Aug 7, 2021 10:11 AM
#7
Aug 7, 2021 10:23 AM
#8
The Olympics Nine Schools Tournament begins with a very good onsen fan-services, nice job Honoka. π |
δ½γγοΌζε³εγγγͺγ |
Aug 7, 2021 12:01 PM
#9
Was Honoka always so bountifully blessed? I cannot remember her being this stacked in the main series. Is it LN canon? |
"Perhaps there is a universal, absolute truth. Perhaps it justifies every question. But that's beyond the reach of these small hands." Mamoru Oshii There is a cult of ignorance (...) nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” Isaac Asimov |
Aug 7, 2021 12:49 PM
#10
Farabeuf said: Was Honoka always so bountifully blessed? I cannot remember her being this stacked in the main series. Is it LN canon? She always gets that size in the main series. However, it was emphasized more in Yuutousei. So, maybe that's why you just notice her size. |
δ½γγοΌζε³εγγγͺγ |
Aug 7, 2021 1:10 PM
#11
Same thing as the orginal serie. Hopefully the final fight will be the same. Chadsuya vs The Crimson King. One of the best fights I've seen. And once again, they shower us with fanservice. The event has begun. And of course, the event won't go on without any trouble. Terrorists behind the bus attack. |
“You yourself have to change first, or nothing will change for you!” ' |
Aug 7, 2021 1:46 PM
#12
4/5 nbut i want more Miyuki time... I hope we get more longer fights in the tourment in next ep may whole miyuki showcase |
Aug 7, 2021 2:48 PM
#13
Not too interesting so far but the arc is better later, Miyuki is still drooling over her brother and the other girls are starting to blush as well |
Aug 7, 2021 6:02 PM
#14
Ah yes, this episodes reminded me again of the onsen scene from the main series, but damn they upped their game with this version of said scene. Miyuki looked quite out of proportion XD Can't complain though, cause Honoka was quite in the spotlight this episode with Eimi going after her oppai and later having her jog. Good Fanservice! |
Aug 8, 2021 5:53 AM
#15
The last of the "introductory" episodes before the main action starts. We get introduced to Airi, who along with Shiori and Toko will feature quite a lot in the next few episodes as they compete against First High. Airi is extremely proud about her family's position in the magical world almost to the point of being arrogant, however she will taste some humble pie later on. Next episode will mostly be about the rookie speed shooting competition featuring Shiziku and Shiori. We finally get to see more details around the strategies that Tatsuya has cooked up. SideCharacterKal said: Hopefully the final fight will be the same. Chadsuya vs The Crimson King. One of the best fights I've seen. The final fight is reserved for Miyuki as this show is about her primarily. However the Tatsuya vs Crimson King monolith code match still gets covered, probably around episode 10 or 11. |
Aug 8, 2021 6:14 AM
#16
You know, sometimes I'm thinking if this is still worth watching, cu'z pretty much this the first season just tweaked up for the sister. |
Aug 8, 2021 7:10 AM
#17
Aug 8, 2021 7:17 AM
#18
The additional fanservice scenes and those new girls that weren't in the original anime were pretty nice additions. |
Aug 8, 2021 7:26 AM
#19
no sugarcoating it, this episode was bad, worse than usual. The amount of reused content was much higher than usual, and they even retroactively made it worse by having Mayuki dub scenes we already saw in the original that were perfectly fine, and tell us exactly what was going on like we're babies. that said poor nonsensical storytelling that relies on you having seen the main series is pretty much to be expected at this point. |
Aug 8, 2021 8:26 AM
#20
Onii-sama helping everyone out with their training and CAD's. I need more Miyuki screen time though T_T |
Aug 8, 2021 12:06 PM
#21
Stark700 is passionate as usual, and he is together with many threads, but it still couldn't glue the scattered pieces into a cohesive course of actions. Competions are coming and the preparation is this intensive? Noice. |
SgtBateManAug 9, 2021 5:55 AM
Help! I need somebody. Help! Not just anybody. Help! You know I need someone. Helpppppp! |
Aug 9, 2021 3:36 AM
#23
malMaxi said: that aside, I think I'll do a separate post about the strengths and weaknesses of mahouka, as I don't want to lose another massive post lmao. Seeing as how a week passed and no post happened, let me just say that you don't need to make it massive and you don't even need to justify your position :). Just make a list - however short - of things you'd like to keep in Mahouka because you believe they actually work. yeah I ended up not doing the second part simply because I started Uni again, and so I'm kinda short on time nowadays malMaxi said: Mahouka certainly gets me thinking, but it's often more hypotheticals of "how would I do this scene better" or "just how did the author get the real world science so horribly wrong". I like the notion that the thing that makes a book good as specifically a book is that which can't be translated to other media. That being said, this seems to have little import in our discussion. In the end, the reverse is also true - what makes visual or auditory media good is that which can't be translated into other media (say, novelized). Regarding the imagination bit, do note that i didn't use the term "imaginative" (which, indeed, has more to do with the author), but rather the term "evocative", which is specifically aimed at the reader/viewer. The most enjoyable thing about Mahouka to me at this point is not its overt text and visuals, but rather the things these make me think about. I enjoy the same effect from a great deal of other shows (currently ongoing examples being Realist Hero and Idaten). Do remember that this entire discussion has been evoked by Mahouka :D There's one scene that triggers me to this day, and it is a scene from season 2 where they are explaining how this super tall tower manages to stay upright, and they claim to use two massive gyroscopes to maintain the level of the building. Now first of all, a gyroscope does not in fact seek gravitational stability, but true stability. It will not rotate around the axis from which it is spinning regardless of gravity. Therefore if you got two gigantic flywheels and stuck them in a skyscraper, then they would in fact remain in their position despite the earth's rotation and lean away from the direction the earth is spinning. A gyroscopic skyscraper is inherently dangerous. Then you've gotta consider the rotational force the massive gyroscope is exerting upon the building. That alone would put more stress on its construction than natural elements such as wind and rain or gravity itself. Running two gyroscopes spinning opposite each other hundreds of metres in the air on a building would cause it to sheer apart. There's a reason why writers avoid real science - because they don't know enough about the science, and even if they did there is a chance that the scientific world will shift away from whatever sci-fi theories they are using. It's like the guy took a single high school physics class and thinks he's an expert on science. Anyway that rant was kind of off topic for this actual subject, just had to get that off my chest, been keeping it to myself since that episode first dropped in season 2 lmao. so back to the original topic, while being evocative is good, I would argue it is not necessary or even worth striving for over other aspects of making a good story. Sure it's the icing on top of the cake, but what's the point of making the audience think if you didn't take the time to think your story into being properly in the first place? malMaxi said: well suffice to say I wasn't exactly capable of media criticism during the 90s, so I don't really feel like there's much I can really say to this. It's a different matter entirely to retroactively trace storytelling trends backwards in time than it is to live through them. I suppose I'll take your word for it. I agree with all of the above, including the notion that written text is much more capable of delivering explicit meaning than visuals or audio. I also agree that the current market trends put a premium on texts that attempt delivering not explicit meaning, but rather rather crude emotion, which inevitably robs writing of its true advantage over visual and sound media. Our only difference is that what you call "recent" i have observed since the 1990s. And what you view as the influence of markets, i view as a rather direct consequence of a significant shift in ideas that power the writing medium. malMaxi said: while I would agree that in Russia this change certainly was drastic and worthy of being called a massive cultural shift, it is probably more similar to what you were saying about Hollywood beginning to follow the same trends as the Japanese anime industry - that is you Russkis were merely catching up to the rest of us :DI feel that the resolution of Cold War was the result, among other things, of USSR being unprepared for the digital age. Or rather, not specifically digital age, but more broadly the age of non-text media. Culturally speaking, USSR was already over in the 86, when every more-or-less well-to-do Soviet family necessarily had a video player with a collection of the best Hollywood VHS tapes (and also a few tapes with decent russian cartoons and movies, which only served to underscore the relative volume and quality of Hollywood's output). The specific way this happened is a completely fascinating story in itself and just goes to show how you don't need digital to have virus media (as well as how actually lethal that virus can be). The main shift (that I at least can feel looking back through Hollywood trends) is a massive reduction in cold war paranoia based stories. Sure there were a few that were made in the same spirit that simply shifted the enemy to somewhere else, but overall that kind of story lost its appeal. The loss of a cultural enemy certainly did change the way many stories were being told. Vietnam gave platform for a lot of filmmakers to explore the inner demons of the national interest, however I would say that these kind of stories became more popular once the USSR collapsed. We hit a golden age of action cinema in the 90s, with some of te best hollyood action shows being released (if you're so inclined to conspiracy theorise, perhaps the CIA meddling with hollywood was toned down now there was no longer the threat of WW3 hanging over their heads) I would disagree about the digital age bringing about the end of the USSR, as there were many, many influences such as crippling financial debt that had been racking up since the end of the second world war, however it was certainly a major contributor. Knowledge is power, and the knowledge of the true social situation of the west certainly impacted soviet culture in a very drastic way. I'm sure you would have a lot more to say about that. malMaxi said: what you need to understand is that in the situation you demonstrated the story and characters evolved together. There is an inherent flexibility to that kind of style of writing that cannot apply to the kind of focused storytelling mahouka is trying to pull off. I don't see how you could easily "run out of plans" so to say at all. I know at least for me the issue isn't that I don't have enough plans, but that I don't have enough time and dedication to flesh them all out into full stories. However as a kid I used to jump straight into a story with only a sense of inspiration. In that case then it can be hard to build a plan once you've already begun. I learnt this the hard way - my latest story was only half-planned when I began writing it, and I've had to rewrite the first 10 or so chapters so many times because I keep changing it to support thematic and character-based material further down the line. While of course execution is essential for a good story, I have yet to hear of a good story that didn't have good planning behind it. Yes impact/execution is essential, however no matter if you improved all the characterisation individually, unless you united it under the general characterisation that you yourself have developed for a character. We have mostly agreed here, right down to Miyuki's character being held back by the apparently bad plan of the author.A popular analogy for worldbuilding is the iceberg analogy. Good world building tricks the audience into thinking there is more to the world than just the ice visible above the surface. In the same way, writing good characters is all about making the audience feel like there is more to the character than simply the actions they display on screen. They are not a robot that has been programmed to execute a series of actions, and then remains motionless until the next scene they appear in the story - they have to feel like they have a life and a personality. And the only way to do that is to create an identity for a character that transcends what is merely shown in the story. Yes, we interact with the character through their actions, but the true magic of characterisation is making the reader feel like there's more to the character than just their actions. Their actions do not define them, their identity defines their actions - which in turn is how we learn about the characters. From a consumerist point of view, yes their actions define their identity to the audience. However from a creator/producer's point of view the character has to be more than just their decisions in order to be well written. You have in fact already admitted to this yourself - mayuki is a mess because she didn't have a believable personality to inspire her actions. Either way I'll take a look at MDA lmao. The salient difference is this: you seem to think that a bad plan has doomed the character from the start, whereas i'm of the opinion that no plan survives contact with the enemy (or, in case of writing, interaction with the reader) and therefore a plan is only as good as the execution it is given. I agree that it is incredibly hard to have good execution without a plan, so there is certainly a symbiotic relationship between the two. I also agree that the approach where you first have a plan and then pursue impact, as opposed to other way around, has a higher rate of success. However, another thing i observe is that you often run out of plans with none of them working. And then, trying out random impact scenes until something smells like a new plan is the only way forward. Here is a youtube channel, where the big initial plan was: have one animation a day, no matter what. It is fun to observe various plans (and characters) emerge and get tossed aside in that process: www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF-mZuuKlKM&list=PLpS_5nOXN3i5Xr2usffaKYTlqVwt2E-N3 The best place to see this clearly illustrated is with Shounen Jump's biggest manga. You can clearly see famous manga like One Piece were planned thoroughly from the start, but also had many other smaller plans develop during its long run. However the vast majority of Oda's plans for One Piece were fully realised by the time he began them. Whenever he introduced a new character or plotline he knew where it was going to end up. Contrast this to the other "big 3", Naruto and Bleach, and you can see that they weren't properly planned out at all. Naruto was planned out thoroughly till around the end of the Chunin exam, but once that finished the story really began to fall apart, the world and characters did not ever truly recover. However Kishimoto did manage to scamble together a plan that he hadn't originally conceived of at the beginning - which was the Akatsuki. For me the Akatsuki climaxed in the Pain arc, (with an honourable mention to the resolution of the Itachi side arc), but past that the themes and ideas the Akatsuki had explored seemed to be placed on the wayside and instead we got a series of asspulls for the completion of the show. Contrast Naruto with Bleach, and it's clear that flexible planning and adaptability is more important than strong mid-term planning. IMO Bleach was going strong until the end of the Soul Society Arc, which felt well-realised and carefully planned out. However the Arrancar arc was essentially a repeat of the Soul Society Arc but with hollows - clearly demonstrating that Kubo hadn't carefully planned beyond Soul society. This becomes crystal clear in the final battle with Aizen, where there was never really a relationship between Aizen and Ichigo aside from the fact that one was the big bad, and the other was the strongest good. From there it was clear that Kubo had no roadmap, and wasn't able to reinvent Bleach on the fly like Kishimoto managed with Naruto in Shippuden, and ended Bleach prematurely with a final arc that has yet to be animated (and therefore I have yet to see :D). If we compare One Piece with Naruto, and Bleach, it's clear that thorough planning (but also flexibility) can be the deciding factor in the quality of a story. You simply cannot get away with making things up on the fly. Even when you succeed (such as the case with Naruto), you will never be able to achieve the same quality of storytelling you had before. I wouldn't exactly call it a simbiotic relationship, as this states both rely on one another. Instead I would say a story is like a house. Your plans are your foundation, and the execution is build upon those plans. No matter how good the execution, if the plans aren't good enough the house will be unstable and no one will want to live in it. In the same way, if you have the greatest possible foundation, if you don't build anything upon that foundation it's just a big slab of concrete. malMaxi said: so you were most attracted by the philosophical and more thought provoking aspects of Idaten? As much as I hope that continues to be developed in the story, I am thoroughly convinced that the main focus will be on the fights and general plot, so it's hard to say how much thematic material will fit in. I too have really enjoyed Idaten so far. It's a perfect dumb battle seinen in the fact that all the world building and characters are designed in such a way that "the fat has been trimmed off the bone" - so to say. Since they're all Gods, there's no need for any of the boring dumb things that weigh down a normal battle series - like recovering from injuries, living normal lives, or anything that's not in service of the main plot. The characters are also equally designed around different aspects of battle. Their motivation and drive is naturally incorporated into the main plot without any need for backstories. Their very existences are to destroy demons, so there's no need setting up motivations for them to fight their enemies. The art style is also vivid and unique, and the animation is really good. The music is pretty good as well (but man that intro visual sequence felt weird and kinda creepy lmao). Idaten confused me for the first two episodes. Or rather, i couldn't believe that something exhibiting this much audio and visual style could be so empty idea-wise or so formulaic. I enjoyed the spectacle, but i can't say i enjoyed the story. Episode three was when it clicked for me. The story of Nickel wrapped into the story of Rin wrapped into the story of God-Human-Demon relationship is fascinating. The character of Nickel is an extremely well executed, serving as an amazing vehicle for everyone's characterization. Among other things, Nickel facilitates the outright trascendent character development for Rin. As far as i'm concerned, episode 3 completely bridges the gap between the experience of being an Idaten and our mundane human experience, making not just Rin, but also everyone in the show completely relatable on a human level. Episode 4, in that regard, is actually kind of disappointing, but I'm sort of hoping they are building towards a next new high. malMaxi said: What Uru-chan needs is something like an agent, i guess. Someone that would push her forward in terms of business opportunities and connections while she is focusing on her craft. perhaps so I certainly feel she cannot waste away on the same project as is the case now. well, I ranted quite a bit here. Not a lot of it was to do with Mahouka lmao, but perhaps I now have the energy and organisation to pull some of that analysis off in the next few days... |
Aug 9, 2021 5:38 AM
#24
Shizuku on fire. Oh shit! A prank ala Miyuki, directly straight hit the opponents with her high-level magic. Death will be the only result, not just received a harmless shock through the mini heart attack end result. What a great prank she did there. Yo, the long-awaited girls from the Third High is here. Well, not that kind of first met i've been looking for. Very ordinary, honestly. Airi and the rest completely ignored the greatness of Miyuki and being a tsun. Well, but, its just only the beginning of their rivalry, especially with all of those dang sabotage setup. Hopefully the match between them will be more interesting and can entertaining me much. So, yeah, lets see.... |
Hide and seek is the best offline games on this fatamorgana-called-world-thing. Please comment nicely. I am newbie here. I'm level on mal-badges. View my badges |
Aug 9, 2021 7:43 AM
#25
theGodde said: There's one scene that triggers me to this day, and it is a scene from season 2 where they are explaining how this super tall tower manages to stay upright, and they claim to use two massive gyroscopes to maintain the level of the building. Now first of all, a gyroscope ... I'd like to correct the things that you misunderstood, misremember, or need to keep in mind: 1)There's 360 floors aboveground and 36 floors underground 2) It's supported by four gigantic pillars 3) Each pillar stands erect due to the gyroscopic effect of the flywheels which have been installed on the 36th underground floor and on every 60th floor, starting with the first underground floor 4)As the series is set nearly 80 years in the future from now, multiple advancements in the field of architecture and technology could have happened that successfully deal with several issues that we can't at present 5)It was not only the first hyperbuilding in Japan, it was also the first one to employ the service of magicians (and so, it could be an experimental project for all we know) I should also add that the last mini-arc was anime-original content that doesn't exist in the source material. It was written by the author just for the sake of the last anime arc of Season 2, so it'd not be surprising if they didn't do enough research beforehand. Last but not least, I don't see why you've to be so unnecessarily critical of the author. It's something that's quite apparent by the way you repeatedly talk them down. For example, what exactly implies that the author think they're an expert on science? You have no idea how humble and self-aware the author is. If you haven't read the source material where you get to know their thoughts, stop making such self-convinced assumptions about them. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but when you start to lean towards destructive criticism, your words will lose any worth after a certain point. Unfortunately, you seem to be making the same mistake repeatedly. |
Aug 9, 2021 8:46 AM
#26
So everyone simps for everyone in the show it seems. Can't say I wouldn't either though. Characters with inflated egos that thinks they're better than everyone are everywhere, but for some reason this blond girl from the Isshiki family is really pissing me off. Hope we get to see Miyuki destroying her in Mirage Bat soon |
My candies (2024): x4 |
Aug 9, 2021 8:49 AM
#27
Eimi really does love playing around with Honoka's boobs, huh? XD While seeing the main competition arc in this version is nice and all, I do like the focus of the other competing girls from the other schools. Of course, this spin-off has done a solid job with the amount of fanservice and this episode is no exception. Not only did we get a nice view of Miyuki in her simple and sexy underwear, but we had Eimi getting overly excited in the hot springs. The rest of the girls got hungry for Miyuki when she entered, which was funny. If only they weren't wearing those hot springs clothing, then this would be even better. =P |
Aug 9, 2021 6:21 PM
#28
Symons1m said: Although I try and distance criticism of the story from criticism of the author, I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the first time I've gone too far. You are correct, I was certainly a fair bit beyond critical, there are just some things that affect people differently and this one scene happens to be one of my most hated scenes in all of anime. I'm not pretending to be rational when I make this criticism, this is something that affects me personally.theGodde said: There's one scene that triggers me to this day, and it is a scene from season 2 where they are explaining how this super tall tower manages to stay upright, and they claim to use two massive gyroscopes to maintain the level of the building. Now first of all, a gyroscope ... I'd like to correct the things that you misunderstood, misremember, or need to keep in mind: 1)There's 360 floors aboveground and 36 floors underground 2) It's supported by four gigantic pillars 3) Each pillar stands erect due to the gyroscopic effect of the flywheels which have been installed on the 36th underground floor and on every 60th floor, starting with the first underground floor 4)As the series is set nearly 80 years in the future from now, multiple advancements in the field of architecture and technology could have happened that successfully deal with several issues that we can't at present 5)It was not only the first hyperbuilding in Japan, it was also the first one to employ the service of magicians (and so, it could be an experimental project for all we know) I should also add that the last mini-arc was anime-original content that doesn't exist in the source material. It was written by the author just for the sake of the last anime arc of Season 2, so it'd not be surprising if they didn't do enough research beforehand. Last but not least, I don't see why you've to be so unnecessarily critical of the author. It's something that's quite apparent by the way you repeatedly talk them down. For example, what exactly implies that the author think they're an expert on science? You have no idea how humble and self-aware the author is. If you haven't read the source material where you get to know their thoughts, stop making such self-convinced assumptions about them. Constructive criticism is always welcome, but when you start to lean towards destructive criticism, your words will lose any worth after a certain point. Unfortunately, you seem to be making the same mistake repeatedly. I also have a negative personal connection to Mahouka in general that I won't get into for obvious privacy reasons. The fact is that I do have a personal bias against Mahouka on top of it being rather easy to criticise due to other aspects like poor production and screenwriting. I suppose it would have been fairer to you to have made this bias clear from the start so you could filter it out of my posts when it does creep in. It does hurt when you see people unfairly criticising something you like - I know that feeling and I'm sorry to have brought it upon you. I'll try to separate my personal issues from the relatively unbiased criticism more clearly in future. |
Aug 9, 2021 9:01 PM
#29
Have to watch out for women assaulting Miyuki's breast |
Aug 10, 2021 2:55 AM
#30
theGodde said: Although I try and distance criticism of the story from criticism of the author, I wouldn't be surprised if this isn't the first time I've gone too far. You are correct, I was certainly a fair bit beyond critical, there are just some things that affect people differently and this one scene happens to be one of my most hated scenes in all of anime. I'm not pretending to be rational when I make this criticism, this is something that affects me personally. I also have a negative personal connection to Mahouka in general that I won't get into for obvious privacy reasons. The fact is that I do have a personal bias against Mahouka on top of it being rather easy to criticise due to other aspects like poor production and screenwriting. I suppose it would have been fairer to you to have made this bias clear from the start so you could filter it out of my posts when it does creep in. It does hurt when you see people unfairly criticizing something you like - I know that feeling and I'm sorry to have brought it upon you. I'll try to separate my personal issues from the relatively unbiased criticism more clearly in future. Having bias due to personal reasons is understandable. I appreciate you for understanding my point and honestly accepting your mistake. Henceforth, I'll try to overlook everything that seems like personal attack towards the author and over-criticism of the series, as it'd be just your personal bias talking. I don't know whether this would be of any help, but if the major reason behind your bias is the portrayal of a certain alliance in Mahouka, do know that the author shows it clearly that many people from the 'home ground' aren't any better, so it's not like they're making the people of the said alliance look worse or anything. The alliance has also been given understandable reasons for doing what it does, so it's not playing the enemy role just for the sake of it. Not to mention, we also get to see some interaction later on that reinforces the point that the people from their side are not meant to be just a bunch of bad guys, and it's just the organization/s behind them that make them do the 'questionable' things, and that too due to realistic reasons that we can understand. (the same logic applies to many people of the 'home ground' who do 'questionable' things because of the orders from their respective organizations. It doesn't, in any way, make the people of the 'home ground' that aren't involved in such things bad or evil) As the world is set in an AU of 'our reality', and the series deals with international struggles, the said alliance just happened to be the right candidate for the enemy role when considering their global standing and location. It'd not have happened if the representative of the alliance wasn't as powerful as it is in reality, and/or located further away, in which case some other alliance or nation would have been picked for the role. People and organizations from other nations with similar level of power as the said alliance are also struck down as the story progresses In any case, I always look forward to positive discussions, so regardless of whether my explanation above helps you in better understanding the actual situation, I hope to see less negativity if possible. |
Symons1mAug 10, 2021 2:58 AM
Aug 10, 2021 3:29 AM
#31
Symons1m said: sorry to make you write all that, my personal bias is not quite that robust, it's honestly incredibly petty and in order to explain it I'd have to give away personal info. But basically, it's not even Mahouka's fault, it's just my personal context surrounding my interaction with Mahouka that causes me to view it unfairly. Having bias due to personal reasons is understandable. I appreciate you for understanding my point and honestly accepting your mistake. Henceforth, I'll try to overlook everything that seems like personal attack towards the author and over-criticism of the series, as it'd be just your personal bias talking. I don't know whether this would be of any help, but if the major reason behind your bias is the portrayal of a certain alliance in Mahouka, do know that the author shows it clearly that many people from the 'home ground' aren't any better, so it's not like they're making the people of the said alliance look worse or anything. The alliance has also been given understandable reasons for doing what it does, so it's not playing the enemy role just for the sake of it. Not to mention, we also get to see some interaction later on that reinforces the point that the people from their side are not meant to be just a bunch of bad guys, and it's just the organization/s behind them that make them do the 'questionable' things, and that too due to realistic reasons that we can understand. (the same logic applies to many people of the 'home ground' who do 'questionable' things because of the orders from their respective organizations. It doesn't, in any way, make the people of the 'home ground' that aren't involved in such things bad or evil) As the world is set in an AU of 'our reality', and the series deals with international struggles, the said alliance just happened to be the right candidate for the enemy role when considering their global standing and location. It'd not have happened if the representative of the alliance wasn't as powerful as it is in reality, and/or located further away, in which case some other alliance or nation would have been picked for the role. People and organizations from other nations with similar level of power as the said alliance are also struck down as the story progresses In any case, I always look forward to positive discussions, so regardless of whether my explanation above helps you in better understanding the actual situation, I hope to see less negativity if possible. I am pretty used to cultural racism within media. Being an Australian very few writers actually know anything about Australia at all, so whenever my nation is mentioned in film it's usually a ridiculous caricature. That's something I've come to expect at this point. Mahouka doesn't really have much to say about Australian or even Western culture (at least so far), and as I am confident I've seen enough Japanese media to get a general understanding of how they culturally view the world, I am able to deconstruct a lot of that cultural bias within its realistic context. I'm also pretty used to just poor writing and laziness resulting in racist caricatures that wouldn't be acceptable in our culturally tense western society. So any of the stuff you may have thought my personal bias is I am pretty resilient to IRL. |
Aug 10, 2021 3:52 AM
#32
theGodde said: sorry to make you write all that, my personal bias is not quite that robust, it's honestly incredibly petty and in order to explain it I'd have to give away personal info. But basically, it's not even Mahouka's fault, it's just my personal context surrounding my interaction with Mahouka that causes me to view it unfairly. I see, so it's not like one of those cases where one of your parents or grandparents are from the real world representative of the alliance. Then, I really have no idea how an Australian could have such a bias against Mahouka, and there's no way I'd have you give away your personal info to understand the reason. Anyway, as your bias is based on something else, I'd not know what to say. Once again, thank you for being honest. |
Symons1mAug 10, 2021 3:55 AM
Aug 11, 2021 4:28 AM
#33
theGodde said: Mahouka certainly gets me thinking, but it's often more hypotheticals of "how would I do this scene better" or "just how did the author get the real world science so horribly wrong". There's one scene that triggers me to this day, and it is a scene from season 2 where they are explaining how this super tall tower manages to stay upright, and they claim to use two massive gyroscopes to maintain the level of the building. Now first of all, a gyroscope does not in fact seek gravitational stability, but true stability. It will not rotate around the axis from which it is spinning regardless of gravity. Therefore if you got two gigantic flywheels and stuck them in a skyscraper, then they would in fact remain in their position despite the earth's rotation and lean away from the direction the earth is spinning. A gyroscopic skyscraper is inherently dangerous. Then you've gotta consider the rotational force the massive gyroscope is exerting upon the building. That alone would put more stress on its construction than natural elements such as wind and rain or gravity itself. Running two gyroscopes spinning opposite each other hundreds of metres in the air on a building would cause it to sheer apart. There's a reason why writers avoid real science - because they don't know enough about the science, and even if they did there is a chance that the scientific world will shift away from whatever sci-fi theories they are using. It's like the guy took a single high school physics class and thinks he's an expert on science. Anyway that rant was kind of off topic for this actual subject, just had to get that off my chest, been keeping it to myself since that episode first dropped in season 2 lmao. so back to the original topic, while being evocative is good, I would argue it is not necessary or even worth striving for over other aspects of making a good story. Sure it's the icing on top of the cake, but what's the point of making the audience think if you didn't take the time to think your story into being properly in the first place? The answer is that, ultimately, the value of the craftsman's work is judged by the ones putting that work to use and building upon it, not himself. An incomplete work that gets people thinking is just as valuable as any complete work. In some cases, more so. To begin with, what's the standart for how much thinking a writer needs to do before the work can be "properly" released? Does one have to write a whole Silmarillion every time before cooking up a Hobbit? I don't think so. Going even further, which do you think LotR needed more - Silmarillion, or all the impacts created by Hobbit? Let me remind you, that impacts of Hobbit gave Tolkien, among other things: the little ring of invisibility, the specific character of the hobbit that found it, as well as the specific character of the wizard that questioned its nature. And that it was entirely against the logic of Silmarillion and purely on the strength of specific characterization that Gandalf left the One Ring in Frodo's hands. Heck, i even recall reading that Tolkien wrote like half of LotR with Gandalf carrying the ring before he had to scrap it all because it didn't work. Do you think yourself (or anyone) a better story planner than Tolkien? --- /quickly runs away with rapid topic transition :D --- Fixing the specific kinds of physics you are talking about is one of ways to improve upon Mahouka. However, instead of outright removing the hyroscopic skyscraper, i'd instead use it to explain some facet of the unyverse's magic system. Maybe have a little half-episode subplot centered around some terrorists aiming to destabilize the skyscraper by attacking its hyroscopic properties, only to be foiled automatically by the very nature of the magic sustaining it (with Onii-san getting a cool explanation scene). well suffice to say I wasn't exactly capable of media criticism during the 90s, so I don't really feel like there's much I can really say to this. It's a different matter entirely to retroactively trace storytelling trends backwards in time than it is to live through them. I suppose I'll take your word for it. Maybe yes, maybe not :). The whole point of books is getting an opportunity to live a life you never could. The only question is whether you find the topic interesting enough (and it is perfectly okay if you do not :D). while I would agree that in Russia this change certainly was drastic and worthy of being called a massive cultural shift, it is probably more similar to what you were saying about Hollywood beginning to follow the same trends as the Japanese anime industry - that is you Russkis were merely catching up to the rest of us :D The main shift (that I at least can feel looking back through Hollywood trends) is a massive reduction in cold war paranoia based stories. Sure there were a few that were made in the same spirit that simply shifted the enemy to somewhere else, but overall that kind of story lost its appeal. The loss of a cultural enemy certainly did change the way many stories were being told. Vietnam gave platform for a lot of filmmakers to explore the inner demons of the national interest, however I would say that these kind of stories became more popular once the USSR collapsed. We hit a golden age of action cinema in the 90s, with some of te best hollyood action shows being released (if you're so inclined to conspiracy theorise, perhaps the CIA meddling with hollywood was toned down now there was no longer the threat of WW3 hanging over their heads) I would disagree about the digital age bringing about the end of the USSR, as there were many, many influences such as crippling financial debt that had been racking up since the end of the second world war, however it was certainly a major contributor. Knowledge is power, and the knowledge of the true social situation of the west certainly impacted soviet culture in a very drastic way. I'm sure you would have a lot more to say about that. I agree that what brought USSR down was a combination of factors. However, if i'm to decide which of those factors was more important or critical, i'd still say culture. Sure, economic troubles existed, but USSR could have dealt with them. It did, however, chose to just give up. And it chose to give up because it had cultural troubles that existed for much longer (some would say, at least from the 70s). Well, the only reason i'm bringing it up here is to underscore the power of the nexus event in question. Just being a significant factor in the collapse of a superpower is already powerful enough for the point i'm trying to make in this discussion :D I fully agree that Russia is playing catch-up in terms of media culture. I agree with your observations regarding the impact of collapse of USSR on writing through a significant decrease in general tension in stories. The point i'm trying to make is that this decrease in tension was the natural result of the specific way the Cold War was won, in which the shift from primarily text-based culture to multimedia culture played a massive part. what you need to understand is that in the situation you demonstrated the story and characters evolved together. There is an inherent flexibility to that kind of style of writing that cannot apply to the kind of focused storytelling mahouka is trying to pull off. I don't see how you could easily "run out of plans" so to say at all. I know at least for me the issue isn't that I don't have enough plans, but that I don't have enough time and dedication to flesh them all out into full stories. However as a kid I used to jump straight into a story with only a sense of inspiration. In that case then it can be hard to build a plan once you've already begun. I learnt this the hard way - my latest story was only half-planned when I began writing it, and I've had to rewrite the first 10 or so chapters so many times because I keep changing it to support thematic and character-based material further down the line. While of course execution is essential for a good story, I have yet to hear of a good story that didn't have good planning behind it. The best place to see this clearly illustrated is with Shounen Jump's biggest manga. You can clearly see famous manga like One Piece were planned thoroughly from the start, but also had many other smaller plans develop during its long run. However the vast majority of Oda's plans for One Piece were fully realised by the time he began them. Whenever he introduced a new character or plotline he knew where it was going to end up. Contrast this to the other "big 3", Naruto and Bleach, and you can see that they weren't properly planned out at all. Naruto was planned out thoroughly till around the end of the Chunin exam, but once that finished the story really began to fall apart, the world and characters did not ever truly recover. However Kishimoto did manage to scamble together a plan that he hadn't originally conceived of at the beginning - which was the Akatsuki. For me the Akatsuki climaxed in the Pain arc, (with an honourable mention to the resolution of the Itachi side arc), but past that the themes and ideas the Akatsuki had explored seemed to be placed on the wayside and instead we got a series of asspulls for the completion of the show. Contrast Naruto with Bleach, and it's clear that flexible planning and adaptability is more important than strong mid-term planning. IMO Bleach was going strong until the end of the Soul Society Arc, which felt well-realised and carefully planned out. However the Arrancar arc was essentially a repeat of the Soul Society Arc but with hollows - clearly demonstrating that Kubo hadn't carefully planned beyond Soul society. This becomes crystal clear in the final battle with Aizen, where there was never really a relationship between Aizen and Ichigo aside from the fact that one was the big bad, and the other was the strongest good. From there it was clear that Kubo had no roadmap, and wasn't able to reinvent Bleach on the fly like Kishimoto managed with Naruto in Shippuden, and ended Bleach prematurely with a final arc that has yet to be animated (and therefore I have yet to see :D). If we compare One Piece with Naruto, and Bleach, it's clear that thorough planning (but also flexibility) can be the deciding factor in the quality of a story. You simply cannot get away with making things up on the fly. Even when you succeed (such as the case with Naruto), you will never be able to achieve the same quality of storytelling you had before. I wouldn't exactly call it a simbiotic relationship, as this states both rely on one another. Instead I would say a story is like a house. Your plans are your foundation, and the execution is build upon those plans. No matter how good the execution, if the plans aren't good enough the house will be unstable and no one will want to live in it. In the same way, if you have the greatest possible foundation, if you don't build anything upon that foundation it's just a big slab of concrete. I agree with all of that, with one caveat. Oda's current direction is significantly different from where he started. The only direct throughline between early chapters of One Piece and current stories are the themes of "acquired family" and "freedom", as well as Marine-Pirate opposition. I can totally buy the notion that he envisioned the Grand Line and the conflict between government and pirates from the start, but something like Poneglyphs absolutely smells like a late-stage alteration to the plan - something that came up in the process of Oda writing the Arabasta arc. And so do Tenryibito, for that matter. Early planing does empower executions, but execution can and does feed back into the plan. The comparison with the foundation is interesting, but in construction you also have the notion of "load-bearing walls", which elevate far above the foundation and rise with the building. Also, you can't really plan "flexibility". You can plan characters all dancing in the palm of a much larger hand (and the story can be flexible within the constraints of a larger plan), but if you allow the characters to affect the hand they are dancing in (which is what "flexibility" means), all plans are out of the window. Ultimately, the only kind of plan that offers real flexibility seems to be a plan to constantly address a rather broad theme. Such plan, however, is simply not specific enough to be called a "plan". Naruto was strong as long as it hit on teams of "duty", "effort" and "friendship". In terms of meaningful narrative, the whole thing fell apart the instant the writer decided to let Sasuke's defection stand, positioning Sasuke in open defiance of all three core themes. Bleach's plan seemed to be little more than "cool visuals and fights all the way down". It succeeded on the sheer visual talent of the manga author and failed when the author's imagination and the adapting studio's ability ran out of steam. Well, all of this is semantics, ultimately. Having said all this, i am not against the notion that Mahouka could benefit from better pre-production planning. However, that brings us back to the notion of what you think it even needs to plan. Which is, again, the very same question - what you think is good about Mahouka and therefore can actually serve as a foundation for any sort of planning? I have my opinion, of course, but i'd like to hear yours first :D so you were most attracted by the philosophical and more thought provoking aspects of Idaten? As much as I hope that continues to be developed in the story, I am thoroughly convinced that the main focus will be on the fights and general plot, so it's hard to say how much thematic material will fit in. I am always attracted to philosophical and thought-provoking aspects of literally everything :D. Idaten is not really special in that regard. I am just not above looking for these aspects in any sort of trash, regardless of whether the author even planned for these aspects to exist to begin with :). From what i've read of the available manga, Idaten is about to completely tank about third of its character cast through the use of a rather crude plotdevice And even then, i still have a little pet theory about how the whole thing can be salvaged. Seeing whether they choose to pursue it or not (and if not, how exactly they will close the doors on the opportunity to pursue it) is easily as much fun for me as Idaten's excellent visuals. well, I ranted quite a bit here. Not a lot of it was to do with Mahouka lmao, but perhaps I now have the energy and organisation to pull some of that analysis off in the next few days... If you want to make it a whole analysis - you are welcome to try, of course. But i reiterate that - if your aim is to find an improvement on Mahouka - than what will be most helpful at this junction is not analysis, but rather a simple expression of any raw positive emotion you have or had with respect to Mahouka. "Analysis" is, by basic semantics of the word, dissociation and deconstruction. Improving things is the opposite of dissociation and deconstruction. It may feature - as a small aspect - deconstruction of withered, rotten or otherwise failed aspects, but the fundamental approach needs to be constructive. |
Aug 13, 2021 6:49 AM
#34
I suppose this is where we shall most differ in opinion malMaxi said: I agree a creator does not ultimately judge their work - instead it is judged by the customer/consumer and society in general. However I would also say this has little bearing on the conclusion you have drawn. A creator may hate his creation and see only its flaws (as Tolkien did) and yet it will be beloved by many. Conversely a creator may believe his creation perfect, and yet it is abhorred by many more. I would say it is certainly a window into the creative psyche behind the creation, however it has little relation to the value of a work. The answer is that, ultimately, the value of the craftsman's work is judged by the ones putting that work to use and building upon it, not himself. An incomplete work that gets people thinking is just as valuable as any complete work. In some cases, more so. To begin with, what's the standart for how much thinking a writer needs to do before the work can be "properly" released? Does one have to write a whole Silmarillion every time before cooking up a Hobbit? I don't think so. Going even further, which do you think LotR needed more - Silmarillion, or all the impacts created by Hobbit? Let me remind you, that impacts of Hobbit gave Tolkien, among other things: the little ring of invisibility, the specific character of the hobbit that found it, as well as the specific character of the wizard that questioned its nature. And that it was entirely against the logic of Silmarillion and purely on the strength of specific characterization that Gandalf left the One Ring in Frodo's hands. Heck, i even recall reading that Tolkien wrote like half of LotR with Gandalf carrying the ring before he had to scrap it all because it didn't work. Do you think yourself (or anyone) a better story planner than Tolkien? While I would not urge every writer to create their own Silmarillion before beginning their story, I would still say there is a basic level of planning that is required. A story without a plan is going to become an unguided mess. Simply an incoherent ramble. Take for instance the transformers franchise. Say what you want about them but the first and third transformers movies are coherent and on a rather basic level, entertaining. However the second transformers movie (Revenge of the Fallen)'s script was written by Micheal Bay and a few other non-writers as there was a writer's strike during that period in time. They ended up creating a movie without a properly planned script and the result is an barely coherent mess of colour and sound. take another example - James Bond: Quantum of Solace. That was another film written during a writer's strike. Daniel Craig and the director wrote the script themselves, and the movie is barely coherent. It has a plot (which is more than can be said of Revenge of the Fallen), and the individual elements such as the action scenes and dialogue is done competently in the same way as the other Craig Bond films, however the character arcs make no sense, and the villain's motivation is nonsensical, along with the entire spy conspiracy plot. The plot elements that define a good James Bond movie were warped and mangled by poor writing and planning. These are all good examples of what happens when someone without a plan or a roadmap writes a story. It's harder than you think, writing a plan. Because not only does it have to be tight enough to form the backbone of the entire story, but it also has to have room for improvisation and improvement down the line. This is a talent that takes years to master - hence why we have university degrees in the art of screenwriting and just creative writing in general. malMaxi said: I can see that. Visual media is quite possibly the strongest form of propaganda. I've been looking into how the CIA has interfered with Hollywood trends, and it's honestly quite scary how effective their interference was in changing their public image (for context during the 90s, the CIA commissioned several influential filmmakers to make films that depicted the CIA in a positive light. Movies such as Tom Clancy's The Hunt for the Red October and Jason Bourne were incredibly successful in shaping the public perception of the CIA as this cool spy organisation that fights evil terrorists and does secret missions). Movies and cinema can topple nations, and it wouldn't surprise me that that would be the "straw that broke the camel's back" for the USSR. I agree with your observations regarding the impact of collapse of USSR on writing through a significant decrease in general tension in stories. The point i'm trying to make is that this decrease in tension was the natural result of the specific way the Cold War was won, in which the shift from primarily text-based culture to multimedia culture played a massive part. malMaxi said: Certainly there is a danger to too much flexibility, however I would define flexibility as a situation where you have a character with a specified beginning and ending (and perhaps several development beats to be executed down the line) and then you create this character in your mind's eye - they become as real to you as a living person, and you stand alongside them as the story evolves and guide them down the right path. That's a best case scenario. I know I've heard writers like Rowling talk about having strongly well-realised characters. However that's obviously not always possible. In which case any lack of imagination should be replaced with more planning. Whether or not you consider what I'm calling "planning" as real planning, I hope that I have at least clearly communicated my point - which is that a lack of imagination or "vision" should be made up for with more detailed and concrete groundwork. Also, you can't really plan "flexibility". You can plan characters all dancing in the palm of a much larger hand (and the story can be flexible within the constraints of a larger plan), but if you allow the characters to affect the hand they are dancing in (which is what "flexibility" means), all plans are out of the window. Ultimately, the only kind of plan that offers real flexibility seems to be a plan to constantly address a rather broad theme. Such plan, however, is simply not specific enough to be called a "plan". malMaxi said: there's a lot Oden planned back at the very start. Marineford is one example. The four emperors were planned since Shanks was introduced way back in the first arc. And there's a ton of stuff I don't know of that's been planned from the beginng, as well as a ton of stuff that's yet to happen which has been planned from the beginning. Oda's formula allows him to both plan concretely and flexibly. Separating the world into different islands allows him to have entire massive arcs in which he only has a very minute amount of long term storytelling to incorporate, and has almost complete creative freedom in the moment he approaches that arc to do whatever he wants without having to be constraint by years of planning. Although that's changed with Wano, since it's the second last arc planned for the anime, and so the next two arcs are going to wrap the entire main story up. In around 7-8 years, we'll finally get to see Luffy find the One Piece. Overall there are plenty of minor details that he obviously didn't plan from the beginning, however you have to recognise Oda's incredible vision for the world of One Piece. Oda's current direction is significantly different from where he started. The only direct throughline between early chapters of One Piece and current stories are the themes of "acquired family" and "freedom", as well as Marine-Pirate opposition. I can totally buy the notion that he envisioned the Grand Line and the conflict between government and pirates from the start, but something like Poneglyphs absolutely smells like a late-stage alteration to the plan - something that came up in the process of Oda writing the Arabasta arc. And so do Tenryibito, for that matter. malMaxi said: I disagree. Having Sasuke be the antithesis of everything the show stands for had the potential to create a strong narrative. It's obvious at what point Kishimoto reached the end of his main plan because the story takes a massive dive there. I am convinced Orochimaru was originally planned to be the main villain of the entire show, with the amount of screentime he gets and his attachment to the main characters. However Sasuke and Itachi were certainly set up from the very beginning. It's hard to see how much beyond OG Naruto was in his original vision, but I can confidently state that the main plan of the show finished directly after Naruto and Sasuke's duel. (Although the legendary sannin does feel like a bit of a last minute plan). The world building took an immediate dive. Before we had been introduced to what life was like for people outside of the Shinobi business with the bridge arc, and then the Chunin exam arc demonstrated what kind of roles shinobi play in the world, as well as introducing us to the other ninja villages. But after this the show ignores the common non-ninja folk, and the show significantly powercreeps all the jutsu (in the aforementioned bridge arc Kakashi takes around 20 hand signs to create a powerful water dragon jutsu, but by Shippuden such jutsu can be launched with 2/3 hand signs as long as they have a lot of chakra), significantly eroding the previous world building. It also completely ignores the power scaling of the battle after the Chunin exams with Orochimaru and starts introducing villains who casually go beyond that in the first arc of shippuden (the Akatsuki). Naruto was strong as long as it hit on teams of "duty", "effort" and "friendship". In terms of meaningful narrative, the whole thing fell apart the instant the writer decided to let Sasuke's defection stand, positioning Sasuke in open defiance of all three core themes. malMaxi said: while I would agree Bleach isn't particularly deep or insightful, that doesn't mean it didn't have some thorough planning involved. Just look at how the soul society arc was slowly built up with all these different mysterious side plots that climaxed in an epic confrontation where the truth was revealed and Aizen completely stole the show. It really does demonstrate that there was complex planning involved. And by the fact that the arrancar arc is basically a worse version of the soul society arc I suspect that Kubo was unable to adapt under pressure and relied mostly on those plans he had made. Bleach's plan seemed to be little more than "cool visuals and fights all the way down". It succeeded on the sheer visual talent of the manga author and failed when the author's imagination and the adapting studio's ability ran out of steam. You've gotta keep in mind all these mangakas really came to fame through their aforementioned works. They didn't know whether their manga was going to be popular or not, so there's an element of arrogance to making such long and grand plans as One Piece, assuming you'll still be making manga by the time you get to complete those plans. I suspect that Kubo especially hadn't really planned for Bleach to become as big as it did - or at the very least not thoroughly enough. Whereas Oda is such a genius that I wouldn't be surprised if he took a look at the story he had in the works and just assumed it would be a hit. malMaxi said: I am always attracted to philosophical and thought-provoking aspects of literally everything :D. Idaten is not really special in that regard. I am just not above looking for these aspects in any sort of trash, regardless of whether the author even planned for these aspects to exist to begin with :). , so you can certainly look forward to the dumpster fire :D While I would agree there's often something to be found even where something isn't intended - such as how The Room demonstrates to us how people with a poor ability to empathise can struggle to see how and why their marriages deteriorate, eventually being forced to conclude that their spouse must have been in some way a terrible person - I personally don't think that that defines a work's value. To me there is a difference between value and usefulness. The room is useful in the regard that it can help us understand in what ways not to screw up when you go about making a film, however that does not make it valuable. In the same way a shovel is useful it is not as valuable as a diamond. To me for a film/series to be valuable it has to be of impressive calibre and quality. There are many anime that I have personally enjoyed but not considered valuable because they lack in many aspects that would define an anime as valuable. There are many still that I do not consider valuable and hate, but find that they have proved useful in my growth and understanding of anime. That's my opinion anyhow. I feel that animation and storytelling quality really is important. It's not just about flashy visuals, but a medium with which to convey ideas. A pristine sparkling medium is always going to be better than a filthy, dirt-ridden medium. No matter how good those ideas may be, there's not point in even telling them if they weren't conveyed with passion and integrity, using the best tools at one's disposal. malMaxi said: in order to find out what I liked about Mahouka, and what is considered attractive and desirable within Mahouka, I need to disassemble all the story and characters. Analysis is necessary to find out what I liked - and more importantly what people in general come to Mahouka to watch. If you want to make it a whole analysis - you are welcome to try, of course. But i reiterate that - if your aim is to find an improvement on Mahouka - than what will be most helpful at this junction is not analysis, but rather a simple expression of any raw positive emotion you have or had with respect to Mahouka. "Analysis" is, by basic semantics of the word, dissociation and deconstruction. Improving things is the opposite of dissociation and deconstruction. It may feature - as a small aspect - deconstruction of withered, rotten or otherwise failed aspects, but the fundamental approach needs to be constructive. |
Aug 13, 2021 9:37 AM
#35
I agree a creator does not ultimately judge their work - instead it is judged by the customer/consumer and society in general. However I would also say this has little bearing on the conclusion you have drawn. A creator may hate his creation and see only its flaws (as Tolkien did) and yet it will be beloved by many. Conversely a creator may believe his creation perfect, and yet it is abhorred by many more. I would say it is certainly a window into the creative psyche behind the creation, however it has little relation to the value of a work. I seem to have poorly expressed the conclusion i have drawn :( To begin with, i do not think the value of the work is only judged by consumers. It is also judged by other creators that further build upon that work, including the original creator. You are correct to point out the apparent contradiction that exists between the existence of people loving the work (therefore seeing its value) and simultaneous existence of people hating the work (therefore denying its value). The way i choose to resolve this contradiction is to claim that both hate and love are blind, however love can at least help figure things out, whereas hate is utterly useless when it comes to understanding. So if you want to figure out a work's value - you first listen to people that love it and then you get rid of the bias by listening to the opinions of people that hate it. NOT the other way around. The best art critics that i know of seem to be able to represent both positions within their own mind. Being in a position of a creator that hates his own work that other people love is some of the hardest things in the world, precisely because getting out of that conundrum requires you to first listen to someone other than yourself. Which is especially hard for a creative, and doubly so for a kind of creative with a sense of self strong enough for that extreme kind of self-criticism. While I would not urge every writer to create their own Silmarillion before beginning their story, I would still say there is a basic level of planning that is required. A story without a plan is going to become an unguided mess. Simply an incoherent ramble. Take for instance the transformers franchise. Say what you want about them but the first and third transformers movies are coherent and on a rather basic level, entertaining. However the second transformers movie (Revenge of the Fallen)'s script was written by Micheal Bay and a few other non-writers as there was a writer's strike during that period in time. They ended up creating a movie without a properly planned script and the result is an barely coherent mess of colour and sound. take another example - James Bond: Quantum of Solace. That was another film written during a writer's strike. Daniel Craig and the director wrote the script themselves, and the movie is barely coherent. It has a plot (which is more than can be said of Revenge of the Fallen), and the individual elements such as the action scenes and dialogue is done competently in the same way as the other Craig Bond films, however the character arcs make no sense, and the villain's motivation is nonsensical, along with the entire spy conspiracy plot. The plot elements that define a good James Bond movie were warped and mangled by poor writing and planning. These are all good examples of what happens when someone without a plan or a roadmap writes a story. It's harder than you think, writing a plan. Because not only does it have to be tight enough to form the backbone of the entire story, but it also has to have room for improvisation and improvement down the line. This is a talent that takes years to master - hence why we have university degrees in the art of screenwriting and just creative writing in general. I agree that Silmarillion is too much, but Quantum of Solace is too little. However, that's like saying "0*K is too cold and 10000*C is too hot" - doesn't seem to narrow things down too much :D My point was that, even after doing Silmarillion's worth of planning, Tolkien still couldn't get the actual plan right without getting his hands dirty. In fact, maybe he wouldn't hate his work so much if he didn't plan it so hard :D. But then again, maybe Tolkien's painstaking planning is exactly the thing that allows the work to have this much of a following. So it is hard to say. Depends what he was trying to achieve, ultimately. I hear the purpose of the whole thing was bedtime stories for his kid, so i can definitely see how he could have felt that he far overshot the goal :D The point i'm trying to make is that plan is not a be-all end-all. Your point has been that execution is not a be-all end-all either and i'm happy to agree on that. However, i believe Mahouka's problem is much less the plan and much more the execution. There are some individual planning issues (specifically, the character of Miyuki and the whole attempt at social class affairs), but these are not the things really dragging the show down in my eyes. I can see that. Visual media is quite possibly the strongest form of propaganda. I've been looking into how the CIA has interfered with Hollywood trends, and it's honestly quite scary how effective their interference was in changing their public image (for context during the 90s, the CIA commissioned several influential filmmakers to make films that depicted the CIA in a positive light. Movies such as Tom Clancy's The Hunt for the Red October and Jason Bourne were incredibly successful in shaping the public perception of the CIA as this cool spy organisation that fights evil terrorists and does secret missions). Movies and cinema can topple nations, and it wouldn't surprise me that that would be the "straw that broke the camel's back" for the USSR. I maintain that blindness to the potential of media and overreliance of a rather crude interpretation of the potential of the written word is what caused the camel to overburden himself to begin with. There is a reason why CIA's policy of basically urging the camel to get rid of his cultural burden ended up being effective. Certainly there is a danger to too much flexibility, however I would define flexibility as a situation where you have a character with a specified beginning and ending (and perhaps several development beats to be executed down the line) and then you create this character in your mind's eye - they become as real to you as a living person, and you stand alongside them as the story evolves and guide them down the right path. That's a best case scenario. I know I've heard writers like Rowling talk about having strongly well-realised characters. However that's obviously not always possible. In which case any lack of imagination should be replaced with more planning. Whether or not you consider what I'm calling "planning" as real planning, I hope that I have at least clearly communicated my point - which is that a lack of imagination or "vision" should be made up for with more detailed and concrete groundwork. As long as the plan doesn't overtake the vision. Are you familiar with the little story of Borges called "House of Asterion"? In there, we have a pretty good example of a character who lost the vision behind an infinitely elaborate plan. there's a lot Oden planned back at the very start. Marineford is one example. The four emperors were planned since Shanks was introduced way back in the first arc. And there's a ton of stuff I don't know of that's been planned from the beginng, as well as a ton of stuff that's yet to happen which has been planned from the beginning. Oda's formula allows him to both plan concretely and flexibly. Separating the world into different islands allows him to have entire massive arcs in which he only has a very minute amount of long term storytelling to incorporate, and has almost complete creative freedom in the moment he approaches that arc to do whatever he wants without having to be constraint by years of planning. Although that's changed with Wano, since it's the second last arc planned for the anime, and so the next two arcs are going to wrap the entire main story up. In around 7-8 years, we'll finally get to see Luffy find the One Piece. Overall there are plenty of minor details that he obviously didn't plan from the beginning, however you have to recognise Oda's incredible vision for the world of One Piece. I agree that Oda's vision is incredible. I could totally see him envisioning some key moments very early on, specifically the burning of Marineford flag. In fact, "vision" usually relies on such vivid moments as pillars that help structure it. I also agree that the "series of islands" approach is an incredible structural find. It does, indeed, open a great opportunity for on-the-spur creativity, as long as the island's place in the vision is well defined (in terms of how we enter the island, how we leave it and what specifically changes in the big picture while we are on it). What i do not see is Oda having a very good idea from day one of who exactly the four emperors are and how they fit into the plot. Of the four, only Whitebeard really really worked for me as characters (Shanks remains more of a symbolic fixture, Big Mam and Kaido are more monsters of the week in my eyes). Also, Tenryubito do not feature nearly heavily enough into the story for the place they apparently have in it. I can agree with your understanding of Oda's work as "Well-defined grand vision, little details filled in later", but that would mean Four Greats and Tenryubito would have to be "little details". And hey, in some way, compared to the grand narratives of Adventure and Family - they are! :D I disagree. Having Sasuke be the antithesis of everything the show stands for had the potential to create a strong narrative. It's obvious at what point Kishimoto reached the end of his main plan because the story takes a massive dive there. I am convinced Orochimaru was originally planned to be the main villain of the entire show, with the amount of screentime he gets and his attachment to the main characters. However Sasuke and Itachi were certainly set up from the very beginning. It's hard to see how much beyond OG Naruto was in his original vision, but I can confidently state that the main plan of the show finished directly after Naruto and Sasuke's duel. (Although the legendary sannin does feel like a bit of a last minute plan). The world building took an immediate dive. Before we had been introduced to what life was like for people outside of the Shinobi business with the bridge arc, and then the Chunin exam arc demonstrated what kind of roles shinobi play in the world, as well as introducing us to the other ninja villages. But after this the show ignores the common non-ninja folk, and the show significantly powercreeps all the jutsu (in the aforementioned bridge arc Kakashi takes around 20 hand signs to create a powerful water dragon jutsu, but by Shippuden such jutsu can be launched with 2/3 hand signs as long as they have a lot of chakra), significantly eroding the previous world building. It also completely ignores the power scaling of the battle after the Chunin exams with Orochimaru and starts introducing villains who casually go beyond that in the first arc of shippuden (the Akatsuki). Oh, it had potential to move the story to the next level, yes. But the narrative already in place couldn't handle it, so it was a mistake. Ultimately, Sasuke just sucks as an antithesis. He spends most of his time doing absolutely nothing. Simultaneously, Naruto is also completely stuck and is unable to move on. Cue several hundred episodes of filler :D The show should have been over after the waterfall battle. And that waterfall battle should have properly happened at the end of kidnapping arc after the Chuunin exam. And in that battle, we should have seen Naruto and Sasuke making their decisions to live separate lives as adults. At which point, the author would have been free to make his next grand plan for the next large portion of their lives, with Jiraya and the rest. Instead, we get stuck in unresolved childhood issues both literally and metaphorically for another few hundred episodes, and well into Shipuuden. while I would agree Bleach isn't particularly deep or insightful, that doesn't mean it didn't have some thorough planning involved. Just look at how the soul society arc was slowly built up with all these different mysterious side plots that climaxed in an epic confrontation where the truth was revealed and Aizen completely stole the show. It really does demonstrate that there was complex planning involved. And by the fact that the arrancar arc is basically a worse version of the soul society arc I suspect that Kubo was unable to adapt under pressure and relied mostly on those plans he had made. You've gotta keep in mind all these mangakas really came to fame through their aforementioned works. They didn't know whether their manga was going to be popular or not, so there's an element of arrogance to making such long and grand plans as One Piece, assuming you'll still be making manga by the time you get to complete those plans. I suspect that Kubo especially hadn't really planned for Bleach to become as big as it did - or at the very least not thoroughly enough. Whereas Oda is such a genius that I wouldn't be surprised if he took a look at the story he had in the works and just assumed it would be a hit. Oda did apprentice under Rurouni Kenshin author :). So don't view it so much as arrogance as following in his master's great footsteps. As for Kubo, i do not actually think he had a real plan. Rather, i think he just drew what he wanted to draw and followed the web of associations that his drawing style evoked. By Soul Society arc, that potential was exhausted (which we see in how repetitive and stale the art gets). The difference between Kubo and Oda is that Kubo's story appears to me to be entirely visual (with themes following the visuals and arising from them), whereas Oda's story is in reverse - founded on themes that inform the visuals. Obviously, as has been proven time and time again in history of art, themes are more resilient than visuals and are definitely a better foundation. While I would agree there's often something to be found even where something isn't intended - such as how The Room demonstrates to us how people with a poor ability to empathise can struggle to see how and why their marriages deteriorate, eventually being forced to conclude that their spouse must have been in some way a terrible person - I personally don't think that that defines a work's value. To me there is a difference between value and usefulness. The room is useful in the regard that it can help us understand in what ways not to screw up when you go about making a film, however that does not make it valuable. In the same way a shovel is useful it is not as valuable as a diamond. To me for a film/series to be valuable it has to be of impressive calibre and quality. There are many anime that I have personally enjoyed but not considered valuable because they lack in many aspects that would define an anime as valuable. There are many still that I do not consider valuable and hate, but find that they have proved useful in my growth and understanding of anime. That's my opinion anyhow. I feel that animation and storytelling quality really is important. It's not just about flashy visuals, but a medium with which to convey ideas. A pristine sparkling medium is always going to be better than a filthy, dirt-ridden medium. No matter how good those ideas may be, there's not point in even telling them if they weren't conveyed with passion and integrity, using the best tools at one's disposal. I am not sure i can relate to that. The only reason something like an industrial diamond is less valuable that jewelry diamond is because there are more of the former and less of the latter. However, an industrial diamond can be the single most precious thing in the world and you really need one and all you have are jewelry diamonds. I appreciate that the metaphor is kinda weak, but i hope you can see my point :). Mundane doesn't mean less valuable. It does mean we all take that mundane value for granted, though. Aside that philosophical point of value (and, frankly, to begin with), i'm not sure there is such a thing as "filty, dirt-ridden medium". There is plenty of "filth" in music. Does it mean music is a filthy medium? Some of the best and most inspiring songs i heard are anime openings. Is that a filthy medium? When you speak of the need for cleanliness, i understand that in terms of tools. Someone like surgeon definitely needs clean tools for a multitude of reasons. I appreciate that you need clean tools for precision work in art, too. Musicians need to have precise control over their instruments (and "clean" those by tuning them). Artists need to do proper care of paintbrushes and the like. I will admit to not being not familiar of any such hygienic methods in writing, but i'm reasonably certain it has more to do with the kind of metaphors you use or something, not with whether you are writing a light novel. Now that i think of it, regarding Mahouka, employing the notion of incest seems to me rather ... unhygienic. If you mention other such hygienic problems Mahouka, it might actually be helpful. In fact, at this junction i think it will actually be productive to go back to the set of criticism of Mahouka you posted previously and examine them under this lens of writing hygiene. That will be in my next post :D in order to find out what I liked about Mahouka, and what is considered attractive and desirable within Mahouka, I need to disassemble all the story and characters. Analysis is necessary to find out what I liked - and more importantly what people in general come to Mahouka to watch. If that's the way you want to go about it - don't let me stop you :D I will, however, point out that i am entirely baffled by what specifically you want to analyse. Is your affection for Mahouka so grand and convoluted you can't put it in a few sentences and need to actually break it down? I only have one show regarding which i feel in a similar way - that's Katanagatari. If one were to ask why i love it and seem to marathon it on a semiannual basis - i can only answer "God knows, i just love everything about it". That's something worthy of analysis in my mind. Something that just looms so big in my mind that i can't quite grasp it without breaking it down. Is Mahouka like that for you? You mentioned something like a traumatic personal experience regarding Mahouka in another post. If that's the case, don't feel too pressured by my ramblings to dig too deep into it :D. Just do what comes natural :) |
Aug 18, 2021 12:08 PM
#36
theGodde said: the first major flaw is ... Time to address some of those criticisms! I delayed addressing those because i'm not a fan of criticism for its own sake. But in the previous post we found a potentially useful point of application, which is the notion of "dirty" and "clean" in stories. A sort of hygiene. I thought examining these criticisms from the PoV of hygiene would be interesting. To begin with, let's define hygiene. We are talking about a kind of professional hygiene, which exists in order to have the one doing the work maintain proper control of the outcome of the work. The most direct comparison is clinical hygiene, where you really, seriously don't want any germs in your operation room. However, the same set of considerations exists in all other fields, both professional and otherwise, - from rock climbers (when hygiene involves proper maintenance of climbing tools and proper team collaboration in big climbs, with failure to follow it being potentially lethal) to programming (where hygiene notions revolve around the concept of "clean code" and "reusability", the price for ignoring these notions ranging from a dead project to inability to find or keep a job in the field). Let's use these criticisms to examine the notion of hygiene when applies to anime series both in storytelling and in other factors of execution! ... animation - not necessarily the quality of the frames themselves, but the fluidity of motion. Fights always tend to play out like a pokemon battle. One side will use their attack, the other will stay still until it's launched and then will either get hit or dodge, in which case it's their turn to attack. The prime example being this episode where the three girls were fighting armed assailants and I don't think they fired a single bullet the entire fight. I think what you are talking here is not strictly animation, but rather fight choreography. If we want to view this with the lense of hygiene, the question we need to ask: what unwanted factors does this approach introduce that they can corrupt the experience? The answer is, of course, the suspension of disbelief when it comes to combat. The more you have to accept the fact that the enemy is just standing there looking, the more the suspension of disbelief is strained, the less enjoyable is the combat. I agree that Mahouka's combat in general is really clumsy in that regard. In fact, the only two fights i actually enjoy are Tatsuya's first encounter in the school (where he has to prove his ability to disciplinary commitee) and later Tatsuya's one-sided curbstomp of a criminal ring leadership. Both of these encounters are characterized by full control that the author has over the states of individual combatants and their battle tactics. I guess the authors are able to do that because both the encounters are dead simple. In first case, the fight is won in the first exchange. In the second case, Tatsuya already checkmates his adversaries with his first move, but it is interesting how specifically they attempt (and fail) to get out. The rest of the fights are simply too messy to click with me. The redhead was supposedly an interesting character that doesn't use magic, but with the way her use of martial arts is portrayed it might as well be magic. Miyuki fights cannot even be called that, as she damn near always attacks first and wins with her first move. In terms of sheer combat effectiveness, she is even more powerful that Tatsuya :D. Well, what else comes to mind from S1 is the sequence where the guys fight as a trio in some battle revolving around a stone artifact. Some interesting things are done there in terms of relative positioning and long-range bombardments. However, this choreography of this fight basically boils down to one dude walking straight at Tatsuya, while Tatsuya is flailing almost randomly. The enjoyment here comes not from animation or fight choreography, but from the sense that the author understands how that specific battlefield works. I agree that fight choreography is a weak point and the authors of the show definitely fail in execution on that, thus detracting from overall quality. Not sure how useful is the concept of hygiene in that regard, though. So this kinda misses the mark in terms of the goals of this analysis. I guess we identified the price for not doing the hygienic procedures properly - increased burden on the viewers suspension of disbelief. The higher the burden, the less likely a specific person will agree to carry it. the way CADs are used in mahouka is also awful. The fights basically boil down to 17th century musket wars, where two sides line up and take turns activating their CADs at each other. If there was a better mix of quick-activation low damage spells and long activation high damage spells that could easily improve the fluidity and changeability of the combat. The need to lengthen every CAD battle also can really harm the pacing. Sometimes quickdraw duels can be more entertaining than long and arduous battles (when set up correctly) I think the author cooked up the idea of mundane magic and tried to execute it, but ultimately didn't have the writing chops to execute it properly. CADs specifically are not a problem in themselves - Miyuki wrecking stuff with her mobile phone is one of the show's iconic visuals :D. The problem is that there is little sense of logic to how these CADs are made, what their limitations and abilities are. The principle of hygiene is more apparent here. The author introduced a set of tools, but failed to properly define them. It is like cooking with blunt knives. They don't cut too well and things get messy fast. An example of good execution of an idea of CADs would be World Trigger. Their CAD analogue (triggers themselves) are all very well defined, from their basic power source (the internal potential of the person operating the device), to their actual abilities both mundane (various mass production devices that are shared through most of the cast) and high-class fantasy (black triggers). The author clearly enjoys coming up with creative uses for mundane triggers, as well as completely upending the entire game through introduction of black triggers as well as their various interactions with mundane triggers. Mahouka couldn't really flesh out the mundane. I guess we identified one of the principles of hygiene when it comes to magitek-based battle systems. Always make sure your mundane mechanics are great, varied and open to various interesting scenarios. You can introduce various crazy mechanics before you properly introduce the mundane ones (World Trigger introduces black triggers with crazy powers pretty early on), but having a decent grasp at what your mundane devices will look like will both give you confidence in use of more extravagant devices and will lessen the suspension of disbelief burden on the viewer. ... and that's it in terms of criticisms! Weird, i thought you'd have something more substantial, but they all seem to be about specifically fights. Oh well, looking forward to your more complete analysis. |
Mar 28, 2022 5:24 AM
#37
This is most certainly a show where the creators expects you to have watched at least the first season. It's like a whole season recap told slightly differently, rehashing some scenes slightly, and using other characters viewpoints. I'm enjoying it all the same, I've been binging this whole series for the last few days as well, so it's not like it's playing into nostalgia or anything. It kind of reminds me of a mash up of Rail gun and Soul Eater Not! Railgun focused on similar arcs in Index through the eyes of Misaka and friends, while Soul Eater Not! took place at the same academy as the original series, but with completely different main characters. If you're a fan of this series and it's characters, I don't see what you wouldn't like this as well, unless you think it would be a simple waste of time, nitpicking at small changes, etc... |
Apr 27, 2022 12:09 PM
#38
I already don't like those girls, trying to look down on everyone while you're not even in ten master clans, can't wait to see her get destroyed. Even as a spin-off, I'm still looking forward to this tournament, lol. I doubt it will be as good as the og one, but I wasn't expecting that in the first place. |
Nov 30, 2022 11:08 AM
#39
I remember a bit about that competition, was kind of a good reminder what happened in season 1. |
Aug 20, 2023 1:49 PM
#40
Fanservice of Miyuki never gets old! Interesting to see the events from the POV of Third High. They aren't as stuck up as I expected. Ichijiou's love for Miyuki is far more apparent here than in the main series. |
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