Why is this so bad?

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

This is not bad. Most of people are either too shallow to get the social commentary this show is doing OR are the kind of otaku normal class-s yuri shows target.

This is quite good interpretation of the show as is the anime news network review of the show that seems to mostly get the main themes unlike most of MAL viewers

Jan 20, 2015 8:08 AM

#67

Smudy

Former AMQ God

Offline

Sep 2014

5554

Too many dumb people in this world. That's why it's considered ''bad'.

Jan 20, 2015 8:43 AM

#68

goodshitgoOdshit

Offline

Dec 2013

10536

So many ignorant comments, ugh

Jan 20, 2015 8:53 AM

#69

okanagan

Offline

Oct 2012

1917

Bad news...

This series is very unpopular in Japan. Very few people are pre-ordering the
Blu-rays and DVDs prior to the date that they actually go on sale. This is
measured by "Amazon Stalker points". There are going to be six volumes. As of
this minute, here are the "Amazon Stalker points" for the various volumes.
The first column is the volume number. The second column is the date that the
volume will go on sale. Then I quote the Amazon Stalker points for the Blu-ray
(BD) and the DVD. Sorry, but I got too tired to look up the last three volumes.

V1 2015/03/25 BD 1071 DVD 173
V2 2015/04/24 BD 1029 DVD 159
V3 2015/05/27 BD 1281 DVD 209
V4 2015/06/24 BD ....... DVD ...
V5 2015/07/24 BD ....... DVD ...
V6 2015/08/26 BD ....... DVD ...

Many other users here in MAL are much more familiar with the interpretation
of Amazon Stalker points, as well as making use of other information sources
to gauge sales. However, my non-expert opinion is that this looks to me like
"crash-and-burn".

As a historical note, both "Aoi Hana" (青い花/Sweet Blue Flowers) and "Sasameki
Koto" (ささめきこと/Whispered Words) crashed and burned at the end of 2009,
which is believed to have resulted in the end of the golden age of Yuri and the
start of the great Yuri drought. "Yurikuma" appears to me to be yet another
failed attempt to replicate the spectacular success of "Maria-sama ga Miteru"
(マリア様がみてる) which ran over four seasons from January 2004 to March
2009. So I don't expect to see many more "Central-Element Yuri" anime series
being produced any time soon. Yuri fans should turn their Yuri goggles up to
maximum magnification in the hopes of seeing some Yuri subtext in popular
series such as "Amagi Brilliant Park", "Sword Art Online" and maybe "Free!".

Are you desperate to see more high-quality Yuri by Ikuhara? Then go back and
watch "Aoi Hana". He didn't work on the actual series. However, he created
the storyboard for the OP sequence. That was it. It is a very good OP.

Jan 20, 2015 8:58 AM

#70

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

Yet more people missing the point.

This is not trying to be class S yuri

And I am not surprised that japan HATES this. Homophobia and misogyny is VERY prevalent in japan so any show that calls out on t hat WILL be despised.

Jan 20, 2015 9:11 AM

#71

PonPonPon

Offline

Feb 2014

425

Ikuhara works employ a different narrative style. If you don't like it, you don't like it. Nothing wrong with that.

But to outright deny that his works are bereft of meaning is uninformed at best and straight up retarded at worst. There are entire websites devoted to exploring anime like Utena and Penguindrum. I know that people have knee-jerk reactions to buzzphrases like "hidden meaning", "deep", "symbolic", etc. but all of those words apply here. The motifs that Ikuhara employs are very much purposeful.

You can disagree with the execution of it - e.g. overuse of symbolism, shaky pacing, and disagreement with some of the messages are all valid reasons to dislike and criticize Utena. But if you say "Ikuhara is pretentious" or "his works are meaningless drivel" or something along those lines, then you're just falling back on lazy non-arguments to try and criticize shows that a lot of people enjoy for valid reasons.

As far as YKA goes, I just started the first two eps, it looks like his weirdest project yet. It'll be interesting to see where it goes. For people who have never seen Ikuhara, I strongly recommend you watch Utena first to get a feel for his style. It's much more accessible than YKA is, imo.

Jan 20, 2015 9:56 AM

#72

Botato

Offline

Nov 2013

22773

Blind_Guardian said:
It's pure fucking garbage. That's why it's so bad.

It's bad because it's bad.
So enlightening.

PS: Haven't seen this show nor do I care about it, but I just liked his post.

Jan 21, 2015 1:04 AM

#73

juventus95

Offline

Sep 2014

CookingPriest said:
Yet more people missing the point.

This is not trying to be class S yuri

And I am not surprised that japan HATES this. Homophobia and misogyny is VERY prevalent in japan so any show that calls out on t hat WILL be despised.

I agree. This show is not easily digested. It's very accurate in making a point about "invisible" vs "visible" state of yuri in anime. Shows that provide prominent yuri subtext are more likely to succeed than those that clearly show two girls are in a sexual and romantic relationship.

Jan 21, 2015 5:19 AM

#74

SeibaaHomu

Offline

Mar 2012

5238

I'm less peeved by the BD sales than I'd normally be since, unlike Yuyushiki or Sora no Woto, there's probably not going to be any room for a sequel after it's all said and done but it's still quite sad for obvious reasons.

But hey, Free! and Girls und Panzer took a little while to get off the ground and look where they are now. Never say never.

The series relies very heavily on the assumption that the viewer has some knowledge of Ikuhara's work, a critical mind to look at scenes in a metaphorical sense rather than just taking eveything at face value (It's virtually imposible to competently analyse the series any other way) or at least a willingness to accept its insanity (Which is what got me through Penguindrum without any knowledge of Ikuhara) so it isn't hard to see why not everyone is on board.

Jan 21, 2015 5:23 AM

#75

tsudecimo

Offline

Dec 2012

24355

I seriously wonder, if those ''hurr durr people can't understand it'' actually understand most of the symbolism themselves.

So many pretentious fucks in this site.

Jan 21, 2015 5:31 AM

#76

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

SeibaaHomu said:
I'm less peeved by the BD sales than I'd normally be since, unlike Yuyushiki or Sora no Woto, there's probably not going to be any room for a sequel after it's all said and done but it's still quite sad for obvious reasons.

But hey, Free! and Girls und Panzer took a little while to get off the ground and look where they are now. Never say never.

The series relies very heavily on the assumption that the viewer has some knowledge of Ikuhara's work, a critical mind to look at scenes in a metaphorical sense rather than just taking eveything at face value (It's virtually imposible to competently analyse the series any other way) or at least a willingness to accept its insanity (Which is what got me through Penguindrum without any knowledge of Ikuhara) so it isn't hard to see why not everyone is on board.

Yeah I'd say watching Utena before this is kind of required to get accustomed to Ikuhara's style.

Jan 21, 2015 6:52 AM

#77

Denagoh

Offline

Dec 2013

107

I thought that too OP but after the 2nd episode I started getting into it and enjoy it a lot more. For me the first episode took me by shock because I wasn't expecting something like this but it was something different from the regular formula of anime so it was nice.

Jan 21, 2015 9:45 AM

#78

Winter 2017 tl;dr Season Preview

Offline

Jun 2014

Ikuhara is playing this all over again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

Symbolism =/= Deep

Half of the plot will be made up by fans speculation and they will claim that its "2deep4u"

Jan 21, 2015 10:57 AM

#79

fst

Offline

Mar 2013

20064

That's assuming the bulk of them are aware that's what it's doing. I'll bet there's plenty of people who are just like "dafuq is this shit" and changed the channel.

In any case it's not like Ikuhara's work isn't highly uncommercial, discounting Sailor Moon.

Jan 21, 2015 11:12 AM

#80

goodshitgoOdshit

Offline

Dec 2013

10536

There isn't anything in this show not to understand. Sure, this is not some mindless comedy, but everything is pretty understandable so far. At least the basic metafores. And hopefully most of the stuff will get clear at the ending. Give it some time.

Jan 21, 2015 11:30 AM

#81

Offline

Feb 2014

337

robis798 said:
There isn't anything in this show not to understand. Sure, this is not some mindless comedy, but everything is pretty understandable so far. At least the basic metafores. And hopefully most of the stuff will get clear at the ending. Give it some time.

It depends on the type of viewer and their tastes. Its pretty easy to disregard this anime because of the visuals and ~yuri~ overload. Just think of Western Cinema, its the same.

Jan 21, 2015 11:59 AM

#82

removed-user

Offline

Jul 2018

562456

Where are you getting the idea that its horrible? Its packed so much symbolism and so many ideas in so quickly so early, all while having really smooth animation, beautiful visuals, and wonderful music. The only issue I've come by is that its rushing through things too quickly.

Jan 21, 2015 5:14 PM

#83

Sejin

Offline

Jul 2012

157

Wow. This is becoming...painful to read. Do the people criticizing this show even know what they're talking about? A symbol is something that stands for something else. That's it. That's all it is. From what I understand (which is, admittedly, not much), this generally happens through association. To use this show as an example, lilies have been associated with purity, so over time they became a symbol of said purity. At that point, you don't need lilies to be next to a pure thing to make the association. All you need is the lily, and possibly some context if you want to be more specific. Essentially, the fact that the lily is present says, "this thing/person is pure".

Symbolism isn't automatically deep. How it's used is what determines such a thing. Essentially, symbols are used for efficiency. Because they can get across meaning with less effort than words or actions, you can convey more with the time you've saved. Symbols are also more abstract than words or actions, so depending on how they're used, they can convey complex things much more easily than if those things were conveyed in words or actions. In my (again, limited) experience, symbols feel a little different than words or actions when you experience them (I'm not really sure how else to phrase it).

The hiccup is that, to understand the symbol you have to know what it means. I don't know a lot of symbolism. I've done a ton of searches and reading online to try to understand how the symbols are being used in Yurikuma. It's not the kind of thing that you can't learn if you don't already know it. It's like any skill, the more you practice it, the better you get. Don't understand =/= can't understand. I'm saying this because I've seen some people disparaging others for essentially being "too dumb to get it". As someone who is honestly still firmly in that group, but who has decided to try to learn to watch things more critically and thoughtfully, I really can't stand that kind of talk because it implies that if you don't know, you can never know, which is as far from the truth as you can get.

With Yurikuma, it seems like a lot of the symbolism in the first two episodes (the only ones I've seen so far) is really overt--because I perceive it. Honestly, from what I've seen of it, to really understand the basic story in this show, you have to sort of couple that surface-level symbolism with the story as it goes along, otherwise it will seem really confused. What that means is that if you don't pick up on that surface-level symbolism, you'll be lost. There are also a couple metaphors and some wordplay that's going on in tandem with the symbolism that you need to have picked up on. If you go and read some anibloggers' posts about the first couple of episodes (or heck, just read through the discussion threads for the first two episodes here on MAL), it'll sink in surprisingly quickly. So, for everyone who's confused about this show, do that.

And people really need to learn what "pretentious" means. At this point, from multiple interviews of and commentary by Ikuhara I've seen and read, I'm reasonably certain he isn't pretentious. A troll sometimes, yes, but pretentious? He seems to have a good sense of humor about himself and his work. Honestly, I think Yurikuma is a great example of this. It's so weird and silly and absurd at times that how can you possibly see it as taking itself super seriously and being high on its own importance? And even with the trolling Ikuhara does sometimes, I think there's a reason for it: He likes abstraction. Abstraction leaves things open to interpretation. In that vein, why would Ikuhara just tell you everything? If part of the point of the work is to get you to think about what it's addressing, spelling it out in the work itself or in interviews and commentary runs counter to that goal. Another thing I've heard, but am not very certain of myself, is that in general the anime studios tend to handle their directors. They don't like them talking about that stuff. Again, this is only something I've heard and don't know for myself, but if it is true, it could be another reason for Ikuhara's vagueness in interviews and the like.

Also, as has been said by many others, this is an Ikuhara show. Knowing how he does things is really helpful, just in that you know what you're getting into. I do agree that, just because he made some really critically beloved shows in the past, it doesn't mean this one will be the same, but there's absolutely no way to know that only two or three episodes in. Also, he seems consistent enough that I don't think it's unreasonable in the slightest to have high expectations for Yurikuma. Again, there's no way to know only two or three episodes in. Just wait and see.

If you don't like this sort of thing, that's perfectly understandable, but you can't say that makes the show bad. On the flip-side, if you do like this sort of thing, that doesn't make it automatically good. It's all in how you use it. Now, if you don't like it because you're missing stuff left and right because you can't perceive it (and believe me, I know what that's like; that's what happens to me most of the time), then you can do a lot to change that. Criticisms based on ignorance are really flimsy and people readily object to them, as in this thread. However, that's also something that can be changed if you wish, by learning about what you don't know.

Really, if you're bagging on the show and you don't really even know what you're bagging on, you should really expect the pushback. Not every show is obvious. Not every show gives you the answers. Not every show is escapist. I think this last one is important because the vast majority of people just want that out of their entertainment, and that's fine! Anime is great at escapism. But, when it's not being escapist, you need to recognize that. You can't validly criticize something based on what it's not. That doesn't make sense.

I guess I felt it necessary to write this because a lot of the back and forth in this thread seems to be caused by people not really understanding where the other side is coming from, and maybe not fully understanding where they themselves are coming from (my spiel about people not having the same amount or kinds of knowledge). And maybe that's a big assumption on my part, but it's the impression I've gotten from following this thread pretty much since it started. Discussion and debate is good and all, but this one doesn't really seem to be going anywhere.

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Jan 21, 2015 7:54 PM

#84

okanagan

Offline

Oct 2012

1917

I got curious about what kind of symbols/metaphors/meaning Japanese fans
were seeing. So I did a bunch of Googling. I tried to read as much as possible
of anything where people were talking about the series. It came as a bit of a
surprise that, in the end, I didn't find a very wide range of things, even
though I Googled as many potentially relevant keywords as I could think of.
The dominant idea seems to be well-illustrated by five still images from the
series along with two symbols. You can see them all here:
http://purisoku.com/archives/7756686.html

The five still images are:

(1) A bird's-eye view of the school (showing a pink triangle)
(2) The array of funeral drawers (showing a pink triangle)
(3) A street view of Kureha's house (a pink triangle)
(4) Kureha's bedroom (maybe a pink triangle in there somewhere)
(5) That structure in the school garden (pink)

Below those, the two symbols (not actually shown in the series) are:

(a) A pink triangle surrounded by green circle
(b) A pink triangle

A key point is that, in most of the five still images, the pink triangles tends to be
surrounded in green. So this is symbol (a), which they say is the "straight ally"
(ストレート・アライ) symbol. See here for a detailed explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_ally

In many, many different webpage discussions, there is emphasis of the same
basic theme of a something pink being surrounded with something green, and
what that might mean. There is not a harsh rigidity that the pink must be a
triangle or that the green must be a circle. Only a smaller number of webpages
that I saw actually discussed it in detail.

The second issue of interest is the "pink triangle" (ピンク・トライアングル/ピンクの三角) 　　
on its own. So for example, they mention the use of the pink triangle (also
known in German as the Rosa Winkel) as a marking used on homosexuals
when they were persecuted by the Nazis during the holocaust in the 1940s.
See here for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_triangle

Eventually I found a lot, and here are some of the better webpages which
I came across (all in Japanese) in case you want to follow up:
http://blog.livedoor.jp/nylon66/archives/52134455.html
http://purisoku.com/archives/7756686.html
http://ch.nicovideo.jp/yamachi/blomaga/ar707295
http://88ch.net/archives/20570179.html
http://animan.doorblog.jp/archives/42885736.html

Jan 21, 2015 8:15 PM

#85

Offline

Feb 2014

337

okanagan said:
I got curious about what kind of symbols/metaphors/meaning Japanese fans
were seeing. So I did a bunch of Googling. I tried to read as much as possible
of anything where people were talking about the series. It came as a bit of a
surprise that, in the end, I didn't find a very wide range of things, even
though I Googled as many potentially relevant keywords as I could think of.
The dominant idea seems to be well-illustrated by five still images from the
series along with two symbols. You can see them all here:
http://purisoku.com/archives/7756686.html

The five still images are:

(1) A bird's-eye view of the school (showing a pink triangle)
(2) The array of funeral drawers (showing a pink triangle)
(3) A street view of Kureha's house (a pink triangle)
(4) Kureha's bedroom (maybe a pink triangle in there somewhere)
(5) That structure in the school garden (pink)

Below those, the two symbols (not actually shown in the series) are:

(a) A pink triangle surrounded by green circle
(b) A pink triangle

A key point is that, in most of the five still images, the pink triangles tends to be
surrounded in green. So this is symbol (a), which they say is the "straight ally"
(ストレート・アライ) symbol. See here for a detailed explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_ally

In many, many different webpage discussions, there is emphasis of the same
basic theme of a something pink being surrounded with something green, and
what that might mean. There is not a harsh rigidity that the pink must be a
triangle or that the green must be a circle. Only a smaller number of webpages
that I saw actually discussed it in detail.

The second issue of interest is the "pink triangle" (ピンク・トライアングル/ピンクの三角) 　　
on its own. So for example, they mention the use of the pink triangle (also
known in German as the Rosa Winkel) as a marking used on homosexuals
when they were persecuted by the Nazis during the holocaust in the 1940s.
See here for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_triangle

Eventually I found a lot, and here are some of the better webpages which
I came across (all in Japanese) in case you want to follow up:
http://blog.livedoor.jp/nylon66/archives/52134455.html
http://purisoku.com/archives/7756686.html
http://ch.nicovideo.jp/yamachi/blomaga/ar707295
http://88ch.net/archives/20570179.html
http://animan.doorblog.jp/archives/42885736.html

Thats a nice research, thanks. The straight ally sums up my thoughts regarding Ikuhara's own position on this whole matter.

Jan 21, 2015 8:23 PM

#86

Jonesy974

Offline

Aug 2013

2278

It's not a bad show at all unless you have the IQ of a fucking stump and just wanted to watch it in hopes of full uncensored hentai level yuri.

That's just MAL though. Shows that make you think = low ratings
Shows that are terrible but ride purely on hype (ex. Tokyo Ghoul) = automatic 8+.

Jan 21, 2015 11:29 PM

#87

--ALEX--

Offline

Jun 2008

25957

UGH....here come pretentious MALers calling out anyone who isn't as deep as them and letting them know that the reason they don't like the show is because they're too simple minded to get it.

Folks.....this isn't fucking psychology class, it's anime, featuring very cute girls and hell equally very cute bear things and other very cute visuals.

People are not liking it because we're getting conflicting messages here....do we want to watch a deep symbolic show or just a cute lesbian anime?

A deep symbolic show would be great, but when you put so much fucking fluff and you make everyone a lesbian (which males are instantly attracted to) it's not exactly surprising when said males get frustrated because they're seeing these two mediums muddled up together.

I personally don't think it's a bad show, and I am starting to get it, but fuck it's still annoying and highly pretentious.

Jan 21, 2015 11:59 PM

#88

Offline

Feb 2014

337

JustALEX said:
UGH....here come pretentious MALers calling out anyone who isn't as deep as them and letting them know that the reason they don't like the show is because they're too simple minded to get it.

I think they're rather frustrated because people keep complaining about irrelevant things.

JustALEX said:
A deep symbolic show would be great, but when you put so much fucking fluff and you make everyone a lesbian (which males are instantly attracted to) it's not exactly surprising when said males get frustrated because they're seeing these two mediums muddled up together.

That just shows we need more anime like that and get more people into it, instead of spoonfeeding with generic moe and mecha.

JustALEX said:
I personally don't think it's a bad show, and I am starting to get it, but fuck it's still annoying and highly pretentious.

3 episodes so far and I don't think we can even call it pretentious. But since thats your case, would you elaborate it?

Jan 22, 2015 7:53 AM

#89

SeibaaHomu

Offline

Mar 2012

5238

'This show about lesbians written by a guy who obviously believes very strongly in gay rights and is highly respected by many in the LGBT community has absolutely no hidden message about homophobia in it whatsoever!'

By the way guys, those court room scenes where a small group of guys who have absolutely nothing to do with the cast judge whether or not it's okay for them to do lesbian stuff? The fact that the leader of this group cares mostly only cares about what is 'sexy'? The fact that Kureha constantly needs to keep proving her love to these people even though the audience is positioned to be on board with it from the start? All for show. No social commentary here folks.

Jan 22, 2015 8:25 AM

#90

Momono

Offline

Nov 2012

2078

This thread reminds me of the episode someone in the staff supposedly said it was too hard for the audience to see the symbolism, so Ikuhara put a little hand pointing to them througout the episode, just like that.
Example

(If image doesn't show) http://i.imgur.com/A9rEdk5.jpg

MomonoJan 22, 2015 1:39 PM

Jan 22, 2015 9:31 AM

#91

Offline

Jun 2014

VirtualStar said:
This thread reminds me of the episode someone in the staff supposedly said it was too hard for the audience to see the symbolism, so Ikuhara put a little hand pointing to them througout the episode, just like that.

Drives me crazy when directors think symbolism is needed for story telling.

On another note, yes, noticing the true meaning of those visual tropes make some people feel "smart", but at the end the story and the meaning behind of this series seem to be lacking.

Makes me feel like solving a 10,000 pieces jigsaw puzzle with a picture of dickbutt.

Jan 22, 2015 9:34 AM

#92

Mayuka

Offline

Jul 2012

48256

lol

underneath the stars

Jan 22, 2015 10:37 AM

#93

Momono

Offline

Nov 2012

2078

SirFashion said:
Drives me crazy when directors think symbolism is needed for story telling.

But what director think it is needed?
It's a matter of taste both for the audience and for the director, Ikuhara likes this stuff and some people like his style of story-telling, it's just that simple. Some people like abstract art, some painters like painting abstractly, some prefer regular art, some enjoy both, etc. Nothing is an obligation as a matter of preference (which includes the director), and variation in the medium should be always good

MomonoJan 22, 2015 10:44 AM

Jan 22, 2015 10:58 AM

#94

Offline

Jun 2014

VirtualStar said:

SirFashion said:
Drives me crazy when directors think symbolism is needed for story telling.

You have to accept that those hands where really pretentious.

Jan 22, 2015 11:06 AM

#95

Offline

Jun 2014

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FauxSymbolism

This one is a good read for both parties (supporting - hating).

Jan 22, 2015 11:17 AM

#96

Offline

Jul 2007

23708

The whole point of any narrative is the message it carries.

Shit like "plot" or "characters" are just a window dressing for the commentary someone wants to make.

Any sort of narrative style (be it a more metaphorical approach like Ikuhara's, a more traditionalist approach that is common storytelling or a more frantic stream of consciousness storytelling) is acceptable to achieve that.

Narrative is not made to tell you a story. A story is made in the narrative to convey a message. You could have a movie where absolutely nothing happens and characters sit in a single room for the whole length of it and it would still be a great narrative if the message and symbolism it portrays is carried across.

Implying that "symbolism" or "metaphors" or "narrative focus" is not needed(all of them being THE POINT for the narrative even existing) is ridiculous and pretty much is the same as calling the likes of D.Lynch, A.Jodorowsky or S.Tsukomoto hacks.

If narrative does not try to make the viewer's mind work nor make them think about the messages portrayed, then that narrative is worthless popcorn.

Jan 22, 2015 11:51 AM

#97

stand

Offline

Aug 2011

7280

Each Ikuhara show is worse than the previous.
Maybe he'll turn it around one day...

Jan 22, 2015 12:54 PM

#98

opernlied

Offline

Apr 2011

663

I can't help but to be reminded of video game criticism and the misuse of the phrase "artificial difficulty." Much like how that phrase is used to describe design choices someone doesn't like, the word "pretentious" seems to be used to describe narrative/directorial choices someone doesn't like.

"I may be liberal arts to the core, but I am capable of thinking logically."

Jan 22, 2015 1:21 PM

#99

Offline

Jun 2014

opernlied said:
I can't help but to be reminded of video game criticism and the misuse of the phrase "artificial difficulty." Much like how that phrase is used to describe design choices someone doesn't like, the word "pretentious" seems to be used to describe narrative/directorial choices someone doesn't like.

It is pretentious when the author/director wants everyone to understand it as if it was the narrative itself, when symbolism its just a way to add depth to an already developed story.

As the meaning of the word "making an exaggerated outward show" Ikuhara's work just abuse of this "style" (if you could call it that way) of deep story telling, making people to over-analyze and giving meaning to things that arent meant to.

Also the fan base of this works are totally douche thinking that if someone didnt liked it its because it was 2deep4them and that they are pretty dumb to understand it.

SirFashionJan 22, 2015 1:25 PM

Jan 22, 2015 1:32 PM

#100