Nobunaga the Fool Episode 19 Discussion

Horakhty said:
Historically wise Mitsu betrays Nobu and I was kinda really hoping they would not go down that path but after Da Vinci made the Last Supper reference I'm like great that means Mitsu is probably the equivalent of Judas and will betray Nobu aka Savior King aka Jesus

AlexTheRiot said:
Shit that was good. A very engaging episode. All that biblical imagery lol. Last supper, Jeanne and her prophecies-->the thorns, Nobu taking all of the dragons pain and sorrow, and of course MitsuJudas.

Finally Da Vinci makes his move, completing what Caesar set in motion, and a moves the plot a mile. Mitsu finally realizes his own true will and decides to grasp it. Caesar woke up a sleeping giant, and I don't think it's going to end well for him. I just wonder if Mitsu has a stronger will to avenge the Akechi Clan, or be with Ichihime? And I also wonder if his betrayal will hinge on believing Nobu truly is the destroyer-king.

Glad Hideyoshi is hanging in there, but man seeing him start to set into the land of the dead was pretty heavy.
lol pretty much. It's the best development we could hope to see from Mitsu though so I'm fine with it.

jfs said:

Ichihime will not forgive mitsu if anything happens to caesar because of him

Kill her brother, betray the other brother, kill her husband

I mean mitsu clearly is jealous because he noticed ichihime is now attached to caesar so I can see that happening

I cant see it ending well for mitsu either way

AlexTheRiot said:

lol figured that'd draw you out.

I wouldn't be so sure Ichihime wouldn't forgive him. She said back in ep 9 she wanted to be light within the shadow(as Mitsu is constantly the shadow of Nobu's light. She knows his nature and wants to be the one to relieve him of the burden he places on himself by acting in the shadows. I doubt she'd turn her back on that. And don't forget Caesar killed her father, so it isn't unlike her to look past things to a certain extent.

jfs said:
yes and caesar also saved the oda clan and mitsus life.. and she knows what caesar has done for her.. and mitsu killed her brother too so.. will she want to be his light after she finds out he killed her bro and gona betray the other to be the savior king himself? She does not know his true nature... yet

And about killing the father thing.. it was a fair fight in war.. kill or be killed, even nobu has gotten over that.. but remember mitsu is supposed to be nobu and ichis most trusted person and he lied about killing nobukatsu and even told nobu to suspect the takeda.. im not sure how nobu would take that news..

AlexTheRiot said:

She does know his true nature, she just doesn't know the depths of the burden he puts on himself, i.e. the lengths he chooses to go to. I have a feeling she wouldn't be so surprised to learn of Mitsu killing Nobukatsu. She's the one that told Mitsu "if you stay in the shadows for too long you will wither." That was when she gave her last plea to 'be his light', so that he wouldn't go down the path he seems to be following now. So it's not like she doesn't know how he thinks.

I don't even see why you're saying all of this, I'm not trying to argue that Mitsu is better and should get Ichihime lol. And we aren't talking about Nobu, we're talking about how Ichihime would react. All I'm saying is I'm not so sure she wouldn't forgive him for everything because she knows his vulnerabilities as well as the darkness in his heart that puts him in the position he's in. Plus I don't think she really has the capacity to hate as Nobu does.

Honestly, I don't see it ending well for Caesar or Mitsu. Ichihime will probably die because of them, as I'm sure any of them being with someone at the end would take spotlight away from the obvious Nobu x Jeanne endgame.

Boombawks said:
This was a very powerful episode, Mitsu could be like Judas? Hmm

Bikdu866 said:
Yes Himiko, there is no way Nobunaga would let his "right hand man" die so easily...

Am I a horrible person for snickering at that point?

EratiK said:
That was trippy. At times I didn't like how this series shows it's adapted from a play, but no complain for this episode.

Will the Akechi clan rise again? I can't see things end well for Nobu and Caesar (because it would ruin the "power corrupts" message that has been delivered since episode one), but seeing Ichi on fire felt bad. If Mitsuhide was to betray Nobu he'd do it after the death of Ichi because he wouldn't have a strong attachement to the Oda anymore. Or even feel the Nobu cost him Ichi or something.

jfs said:
Imo its more likely mitsu will betray nobu when he feels he has lost ichi to caesar (he got jelly twice already after in ep 18 ichi clearly worries about caesar and that last supper painting shows ichi turning to caesar) and especially if when caesar and ichi reunites they have a romantic moment (preview for ep 20 has caesaer saying he will do anything to protect 'the light' or something)..if caesar ends up doing something for ichi again while mitsu can only watch powerlessly (as in ep 14) he might be desperate to betray nobu to be the savior king and get her back..imo this might make both mitsu and brutus betray their respective masters at around the same time

EratiK said:
I don't think so, that would be shallow from a guy like Mitsuhide for whom duty comes first. He's the kind of guy to choose duty over unactualized love, especially since he sees Ichi building something with Caesar and he wants her happiness.

Also the show works with real history, so of course Ichi would look to Caesar since he's Azai the ally. And historical recounts on Mitsuhide shows he was very loyal, but because he was too old with wrong alliances Nobunaga really pushed him in a corner, Nobunaga pushed everybody around. It's well shown in Hyougemono.

jfs said:
I dont think caesar is azai.. mitsus ninja girls (called the akechi corps) are named after ichis historical daughters with azai and they are also her ladies in waiting.. imo its mitsu that is azai and azai ended up betraying nobunaga historically and turned against him in the end.. so imo anime mitsu fills the roles of historical azai (ichis first love) and mitsu (the betrayer) combined, if that makes sense...

EratiK said:
It's true I'm saying Caesar has two historical roles (Caesar/Azai), but while it's the same for Jeanne/Ranmaru, another Westerner, for Easterner characters, and for the viewers that are familiar with them, it would be too confusing to give them two roles, and no Easterner character has shown any sign yet of having two historical roles. So I don't think Mitsuhide can be Azai because he's already Mitsuhide.

Secondly, Oichi was given to Azai to secure an alliance because the Oda territory was vulnerable on this side. And it's what happens in the show with Caesar. For me Caesar is clearly Azai, even their name sound a bit alike.

jfs said:
How does caesar and azai sound remotely alike?

Like I said what got me thinking mitsu is also azai is that ichihimes ladies in waiting is named after her daughterss with azai and they are a group called 'akechi corps' and works for mitsu.. and azai also betrayed nobu

EratiK said:
Caesar is pronounced /ˈsiːzəʳ/ (look it up), that's like "sezar", sezar and azai sound alike.

The last name of Mitsuhide is Akechi, so it's obvious his ninja corp would have his name. So your only argument is that they have Oichi's daughters names. I would agree with you if the ninjas were actually Ichi's daughters, but they're not, so at this point I have to assume it's to show a strong bond between Ichi and the ninjas while dishing familiar names to the viewers. I guess you could say that makes Mitsuhide the symbolic father of the symbolic daughters through symbolic love, but Azai had a concrete relationship with Oichi, and that's what Caesar has.

jfs said:
Well there is also a theory in japanese 2ch about ichihime being a combination of 2 historical figures (oichi and nouhime, nobus historical wife) nouhime was said to be a childhood friend of mitsuhide and that might explain the unhistorical romance, while the role of oichi is also filled by being married to caesae but I dunno..

astranabeat said:
Is it just me? I think Davinci is the last boss or some one who has very important role. I mean he manipulate everyone destiny(via tarot cards) and sometime guide them to their (suppose) paths. Am I just over analyzing this?

EratiK said:
Oh, very nice. I keep forgetting Ichi's name is Ichihime and not just Ichi.

Yeah when I saw Arthur playing with Tarots (in episode 17? not sure if he did it before), I was like "oh man, is this Da Vinci is disguise?", but I doubt they're the same. Still, Da Vinci feels like a very high player for some reason.

ReaperCreeper said:
All this talk about whether Mitsuhide will betray Nobunaga or not and I'm still wondering when or if I'll finally be able to make use of a certain famous quote from Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar".