Nobunaga the Fool Episode 20 Discussion

ResidentANM said:
So in this episode we finally saw the face of King Arthur.
Didn't expect it would turn out to be a female.
Caesar managed to pull out the Excalibur.
The sword battle was good, Nobu flipped his blade so he could get a clean cut of Alexander's double edged longsword and then slashed into his hand.
Saru is back with full force, thanks to the technology of The Star of the West.
The two stars are now connected.
Himiko's condition has worsened.
The last vision that Jeanne had was definitely not good.

haganedonciii said:
yaay, automail, Hideyoshi's back!
who the hell is King Arthur? i confused...

Lunatik said:
Jeanne finally had the resolve to follow Nobunaga to the very end, but now King Arthur tells her that he is the destroyer-king (via a prophecy).
Damn, I would like to see Jeanne shining, but it seems that she will never trust Nobunaga.

Outcaster00 said:


this Is why Himeko is best and also my main problem with Jeanne so indecisive

Lunatik said:

Actually I don't think either Himiko nor Jeanne will be with Nobunaga at the end.

jfs said:

Next ep from the preview seems like ichi is talking about caesar, she will probably snap him back, and caesar will throw the sword away and then mitsu will take it up (the sword is a convenient way for mitsu to get the power he desperately wanted since he cant use a regalia since arthur said it responds to those who wants salvation and da vinci teased that mitsu can be the savior king)

AlexTheRiot said:
I quite like the sound of that, things have certainly built up so that something like that could happen. But I feel like Caesar isn't quite done with Arthur's agenda just yet.

jfs said:

anyway im guesing end of next ep Caesar will be back with the good guys, but they lose mitsu to arthurs side instead

AlexTheRiot said:
I think if what you guessed were to happen, Mitsu would become a singular threat apart from Nobu and Arthur. Since he seeks to become savior king himself now(Ichi's speech about dominion might have helped his mind justify his desires) he'll probably have the state of mind to act of his own will, and he'll probably be acting alone. Though if that happens Arthur will likely secretly manipulate him through the sword's salvation to instigate honnouji.

jfs said:


Yeah either way when i saw the excalibur the first thing that came to my mind is that.. wow this is the perfect way for mitsu to gain power... also remember that cesare once talked about mitsu being made into a homunculus, so maybe thats some kind of experimental regalia user or something, and Mitsu will use that to gain power, but yeah i agree that Mitsu will either be manipulated by arthur or he will openly ally himself with him..

Also based on Ichis chara song lyrics, it seems that she has fallen for caesar, (song was released right after episode 18, when she worries for caesar for the first time), it has lines about waiting for his return to tell him and that she will be honest about her feelings and that despite not forgetting the 'scent of far-off days that can never be returned to' ( a clear reference to mitsu, who was clearly the subject of the first part of the song,), that she basically chose caesar now, and imo based on the preview of ep 21, it has something about 'not hesitating' or stuff, so i think she will confront caesar and sort out their feelings and i hope he comes back to her (while mitsu goes the other way)

Either way ep 21 will probably set up the last 3 ep (like who will be on whose side and stuff).. im still hoping final battle is Nobu and caesar vs arthur or arthur+mitsu

NiteBloomingRose said:


Yeah, Arthur definitely brain washed/manipulated Caesar there, no doubt about it. To me Caesar did a 180 when Arthur showed him his Aphrodite face (who is the same as Venus that Caesar has mentioned before) and isn't himself anymore. In fact I'm pretty sure that everyone in the Round Table is/was under Arthur's spell and weren't acting themselves. Though I have a theory that Excalibur points to Caesar being the true ruler of the Western Star and not Arthur and that's why Arthur wants to use him as Arthur himself couldn't wield it. I think Mitsu will go after the Holy Grail, but you could be right about him getting Excalibur.

And talking about things being like Ichi's character song, how she in the preview was saying "that flower is you" and showing Caesar. Just fits too perfectly. I also think this is more proof of Caesar being Ichi's historical 2nd husband as she married him to insure his loyalty to the Oda Clan. Ichi bringing Caesar back to his senses will insure just that.

dragonlight said:
So Arthur can change his face at will. Or is it that their are multiple arthurs? Either way it's pretty damn interesting.

NiteBloomingRose said:


Hm... that's true. I was mainly thinking of the Arthurian legend as it couldn't be drawn out, but by the rightful ruler. But the more I think about it, you're probably right with that being the requirement to wield it. That would indeed be perfect for Mitsu. Also with Caesar going to the good guys's side he'll probably lose that desire and be unable to use it. Mitsu would indeed be the perfect one for it then to work for. Mitsu's going to betray somehow (Da Vinci was like Tokugawa with goading him to do it (in one theory anyways)) and that's the perfect way and kinda the only way I see he can the more I think about it. How else would Mitsu be able to betray Nobu with the kind of power he has? So yeah, I now think you're right.

Yeah, it definitely have to be next ep. (I was too especially after all of that "protecting the light" speech in the preview last time).

That's probably why he didn't as why resist when the one he loves hasn't shown any affections for him (or so he thinks)? I think she'll get him back and the more I looked into Shibata (Ichi's 2nd husband) the more him and Caesar sound alike. Shibata wasn't always on Nobunaga's side (originally on his brother's), but was one of Nobunaga's 2 favored generals (Mitsu in no way can be a general). Once snapping Caesar back there'll be this "sigh of relief" only for Mitsu to take up the sword. Doesn't one of Ichi's character songs mention about lowering someone's sword? I think that's Caesar and Excalibur there.

Meritas said:
I really like these theories, they are very legitimate, I've rarely seen people put so much thought into theories about whatever anime/manga title, so I guess that if even at this point the people who still watch this are so scarce, they are really liking this show. Great.



Caesar being the true ruler of the West sounds really relevant. The fact that he's my fave aside, he's really the most impressive person General from the West, and he was really powerful as well - like when the Dragon gave him his power so he could win the fight with Nobunaga. I think that this was really a sign that he's not just random somebody and that Destiny itself didn't want him to lose. How many can actually boast about this?

But anyway, this episode was really random, I really hope that he'll come back to Nobunaga's side, as Arthur's brainwashing was a really cheap shot.

jfs said:


The 2nd song might just express regret at war torn times rather than a single person though im not sure, i wouldnt read too much into that 2nd one, but the first song quite obvious

I really think that caesar was talking about Ichi in the ep 20 preview (but he couldnt live up to it thanks to arthurs aphrodite thing) so based on ep 20 preview its up to her to 'illuminate that path'and put him back on the right path or something... Yeah because despite caesar pretty much doing some crazy stuff for her there hasnt been a true 'emotional' connection between him and ichi despite being married, so that would certainly explain why he was so quick to go 'aphroditeee' on arthur without even giving her a thought, but if caesar is to be brought back, only ichi can do it

Anyway if ep 21 ichi gets caesar back on the good side then the song is almost probably correctly intepreted as her having fallen for him, otherwise, theres a good chance the ship will sink, so yea ep 21 will really decide things

Meritas said:
I really like these theories, they are very legitimate, I've rarely seen people put so much thought into theories about whatever anime/manga title, so I guess that if even at this point the people who still watch this are so scarce, they are really liking this show. Great.



Caesar being the true ruler of the West sounds really relevant. The fact that he's my fave aside, he's really the most impressive person General from the West, and he was really powerful as well - like when the Dragon gave him his power so he could win the fight with Nobunaga. I think that this was really a sign that he's not just random somebody and that Destiny itself didn't want him to lose. How many can actually boast about this?

But anyway, this episode was really random, I really hope that he'll come back to Nobunaga's side, as Arthur's brainwashing was a really cheap shot.

NiteBloomingRose said:
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jfs said:


Well yeah last ep we saw that caesar is actually a very compassionate and kind person (much more so than mitsufag), imo his past evil self that is arrogant cruel and proud is just his way of running away from the fact that he just maybe wanted someone to love him or something, which is probably why he really did all that he could for her, ep 14 really brings out his true character: just a guy who wants to love someone and will do anything to try to get some in return, i think ichi knows this and next ep she will know he is not himself, i doubt she will just be like 'ok bye you forced me into this after all', im sure she will confront him and sort out their feelings, i just hope he is back by the end of the ep (mitsu can go the other way), i mean the only reason caesar was captured and brainwashed is cause he had to be a hero and save mitsu, the guy she liked, it just wont be fair if she abandons him now when he needs her the most (though he doesnt know it)

So when arthur revealed himself to be the 'perfect image' of a woman in his head (Aphrodite, naturally), and said arthur toys with his emotions, talking about how her! grief is endless and how she has suffered so long having to sacrifice so many people, and saying how she needs his power, all while crying and making an adorable pleading face, i can see why caesar was so easily manipulated, contrast when ichi asked caesar to save the oda, she was holding a sword and saying 'choose me or your master now!', while arthur is like 'im so sad.. i have been in grief for so many years..my tears just wont stop... (while holding his hand and crying) , i really need your power, wont you pweease lend it to me (wipes off her tear using his hand) ? ' i can see who has more feminine appeal, though i wouldve thought caesar wouldve remembered ichi for at least a second or so (Edit: i thought she winked at him, but no, she used his hand to wipe off her tears, wow this arthur really knows how to control people)

Theres also the small chance he is pretending and playing along with arthur, though i doubt it considering his behavior in the episode..

Also i cant really completely blame caesar , he seems to have good taste

http://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1401/13/1401134954979.png

I wonder if next ep caesar will tell Ichi something like 'You are nothing compared to the perfection that is KING Arthur' LOL i wonder how she will react to that (maybe like her face at the end of the PV?)

ofc it will be even funnier to see caesars reaction when da vinci or nobu tells him that arthur is a man according to alexander

NiteBloomingRose said:
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jfs said:


Yeah guess the most likely explanation is that arthur perfectly exploited his emotional vulnerabilities, which is really cruel considering how much he has changed till that point..., i doubt caesar is pretending to be controlled too..
IMO it will be a combination of nobu/da vinci telling him how alexander saw arthur as (caesar prolly wont believe it at first) and Ichi reminding him of his choice and maybe slapping/scolding him that will bring him back..

Either way Ichi will prolly decide her feelings next ep, the show has gone out of its way to seperate both mitsu and caesar from her, (with caesar saving his life), then have mitsu be the only one to make it back and showing her worrying for caesar, and finally made him come back as a brainwashed arthur-worshipping acolyte (im sure she will realize that the reason he got brainwashed is since he defied arthur for her sake)

So yeah the love triangle will be decided next episode, the PV has ichi saying she wont hesitate (similar to the song), and at this point, with caesar in that brainwashed state, she cant afford to hesitate anymore about her feelings anymore (mitsu or caesar).. i guess it will be one of

1- She will choose to try convince caesar and tell him she does have affections for him, snapping him back (possible happy end), which will also likely piss mitsu off and instigate his desertion and betrayal, guessing he will steal excalibur too

2- She will try to convince caesar and fail (Caesar goes back to arthur and becomes their enemy, in this case i can only see it end in tragedy)

3- She will be upset and try to kill him for breaking his promise (though im pretty sure he never agreed to betray arthur before they married)

4- She will be upset but wont care much and say 'ok whatever, i still have mitsu though, so bye' (VERY UNLIKELY!)

Based on the song and imo, 1) is most likely, i just cant see her doing 3 after ep 14, and 4 would be really cruel, too cruel to happen in an episode titled justice.. anyway next episode will be decisive for shippers

NiteBloomingRose said:
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jfs said:


The talk with ichi and mitsu this ep is more like pushing mitsu towards a betrayal (or put him on his path to try be the saviorg) since ichi said, 'it doesnt matter who does it, as long as it is done' so basically why shouldnt mitsu try and be the savior now? btw that caesar has a nice shiny new regalia sword that supposedly gives power to those who desire salvation...

Problem is if ichi brings caesar back, will she also save him from brutus? i cant help but feel that brutus and mitsu will betray nobu and caesar at the same time (maybe they have to team up?) or will ichi and jeanne save their respective men?

Nobu: Mitsu, you are betraying me?
Caesar: et tu, Brutus?

That said i can certainly see Brutus get really pissed with his Lord after he betrays Arthur TWICE for the SAME woman....

Yeah i cant see Mitsu and ichi being together, it sucks as a pair, not to mention he has lied and hidden that he killed her brother for so long... y'know thats actually quite a big deal to hide from nobu and ichi (people who trusts you the most) i cant imagine the show brushing this aside.. maybe they will even discover it next ep (its titled justice after all) and mitsu will run off to arthur..

Dangoxx said:
Just watch Mitsu and Ichi get together though. Mitsu is really obsessed with Ichi.

jfs said:


I doubt it, especially since he has his daddy issues and akechi clan that seems to be the focus of his life... and after she finds out he killer her bro and lied to her about it (i doubt theyll just sweep that under the rug) .. i just cant see it especially if he follows up on ep 19 and betrays her bro..

Is it just me or they are making caesar be corrupted now so he can be brought back just in time for mitsu to go the other side?

If you rewatched the first few ep poor nobukatsu was a really pure and kind little boy... mitsu deserves shit for offing him.. and lying about it

And does arthur make people react with awe everytime people see him? jeannes reaction to her vision of arthur seems like she is captivated like ceasar, maybe jeanne, da vinci, and caesar will share info about how they see arthur and realize the guy is a manipulative bastard

NiteBloomingRose said:
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jfs said:


I guess so.. but if the song is intepreted correctly, its more or less saying no matter what sins mitsu does, she will always have affections and feelings for him, but that now she has fallen for caesar and she wont hesitate about her feelings anymore and that she will 'tell you when you return', well mitsu and ichi has been reunited for 3 ep+ and she hasnt said anything so im sure its caesar, also based on the pv, it seems like she will not hesitate anymore so it fits, we will see , since if this is correct, next ep she will show him she does have feelings for him and this is the only way i can see him coming back...

Japanese 2ch threads and twitter more or less agree with the intepretation that 'she will always love/never forget mitsu, but that she will chose caesar in the end' intepretation...

The wait is killing me...