Regarding the Nanao plot (and why it was accepted without much controversy in Japan)

This long essay just to justify Kubo asspull #184750 lol. May as well write an essay for every previous fight in the arc for similar reasons.

Y’all be doing PHD levels of homework to escape asspull allegations.😂

@Early_Morning I mean, this long essay should indeed justify why it isn't an asspull, unless you beg to disagree.
Would you be willing to disprove what I just said? If so, by all means, gives us your arguments.
I'm open to productive discussions and had to study my fair share about Shinto.

It's easy to just dismiss things as bad writing when you don't have certain cultural backgrounds, and in this case, it's such a Japan-centric thing that it is not surprising many people did, thus the whole point why I wrote all this.

amazing episode amazing music amazing adaptation, but the plot in that episodee was so fucking bad more you rewatch it and more it doesn't make anysense,random asspulled deus ex machina sword check,perfect counter ability check,nanao dosn't know how to use a sword check,explained power to lillee check,smart enemy become an idiot check, any way you watch it it just bad, you can foreshadow what you like in the name of the charachter but if the plot don't follow up from the start it is worthless and an asspull to everyone watchin it

@Ilias03x
You don't need to repeat your comment from the episode thread if here if you are just going to disconsider the main premise of reasoning of this thread.

That being, the fact that Kubo has been foreshadowing several elements of the manga from the very start making use of kanji symbolism, poetry, and a considerable amount of cultural/religious references, particularly ones Shinto or Buddhism related. The name is therefore a completely valid element of storytelling from which to speculate plot developments from, as he quite well hinted at those that very same way several times throughout the manga.

I'm not sure what exactly isn't "following up from the start" in your eyes, when we had known her name and how she never seem to have a Zanpakutou on her despite being a vice-captain for hundreds of chapters now. But if that isn't worth a thing to you, then I guess one very explicit and more immediate visual symbolism as to how Barro could be defeated and directly linked to the Ise name (which shrine, again, houses the Yata no Kagami) is the addition of the fight with Senjumaru in the very first episode of this season (or very last episode of last season if we ignore production problems), as mentioned by @18927 .


Back then, Barro attacks this 8-faced Mirror and gets back to him much like what happened here.

So, if I have to further explain, Yata no Kagami (八咫鏡) can be literally translated to "The Eight-Ata Mirror", and commonly referenced with 8 mirrors/circles/whatever may display 8 of something in popular culture and symbolic imagery, when it comes to visual representation, because if you see 8 mirrors in Japan, you will likely think about the Ya(8)ta no Kagami(Mirror), it's very common knowledge Shinto.

Seeing that scene, you directly have Barro be defeated by something that clearly seem to symbolize Yata no Kagami, reflecting his power back to him.

And luck would have it, Kubo introduced this one character with Ise as her family name hundreds of chapters beforehand. Then, the moment she joins the battlefield and specifically seem to be going to fight alongside her captain against this very same enemy, if anything that's not even foreshadowing anymore, it's a giveaway on how things would go, if we are now going to see a power we haven't seen from her before.

Perhaps her suspiciously absent Zanpakutou after all this time? Or just straight up a mirror from her household which would bring Barro to his demise?
Well, both, pretty much (Hakkyouken/八鏡剣/Eight Mirror Sword). So yes, the anime even did add something to complement this twist, it went the extra mile to foreshadow that the Yata no Kagami in some form was something that was visually shown to be able to defeat this enemy.

Ise (Nanao) and Yata no Kagami go hand-in-hand associated with anyone with a bare minimum knowledge of the most important Shinto shrines in Japan, so that's more of a cultural thing that just wouldn't ever be understood by audiences that don't have the same religious contact with the subject, it's just an unfortunate predicament in translation that isn't easy to just explain in the subtitles.

But concluding, no, it ISN'T a deus ex machina, especially in this anime adaptation.

@Danpmss you have to undeesrtand that calling your charachteer with a name that foreshadow something doesn't make a story any better,a good plot would have made you ask why nanao didn't have a sword from her introduction in soul socieety from the start and yes it's a deus ex machina a battle unwinnable, deus ex machina sword,wow now it is winnable

@Danpmss Heh, even a proper explanation wasn't enough to correct his and others' flawed thinking. Too much good writing for narrow minds. I bet he's the first to complain and the last to praise.
One thing is certain: nothing has been changed in the anime regarding that, which means Kubo wanted this fight to be presented as it is in the manga. Now that Kubo has enough time and freedom, if this fight had been insufficient, he would have changed it for sure — but he didn't.
And, well, I think Lille's death was foreshadowed in Senjumaru's Bankai — another example of subtle and vague writing. People need to come up with their own conclusions just like you did instead of calling it nonsense. This isn't your average shounen. Bleach is leagues above them and is easily my AOTY. Nothing comes close this year. The Friend episode/s will only solidify its position as the top 1 anime of 2024.

@Danpmss you have to undeesrtand that calling your charachteer with a name that foreshadow something doesn't make a story any better,a good plot would have made you ask why nanao didn't have a sword from her introduction in soul socieety from the start and yes it's a deus ex machina a battle unwinnable, deus ex machina sword,wow now it is winnable

Y’all be doing PHD levels of homework to escape asspull allegations.😂

I think you should really check the definition of Deus ex machina

While you might be right, I still feel like Kubo could've at least hinted at it more in the story instead of relying on people to connect names to real items. I also think most people don't like that Nanao, who's done nothing this entire series can all of a sudden defeat Lillie. This arc is full of very convenient Ws for the good guys (Mayuri, Nanao, etc) without any loss or permanent damage to the soul reapers so people just wish that Lillie could've at least been treated better but he instead got one of the ugliest transformations in the series and then got defeated by a lieutenant who's done nothing prior. I still find it somewhat of an asspull solely because it's dumb that Shensui was put against a character who would later turn into a god unexpectedly, which is exactly what Nanao's sword can reflect.

@Danpmss It's always a pleasure of being able of reading your texts, I have being a fan of yours since I discovered your coments from Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Sotsu, as there was a lot of hate toward the story and I agreed with your reasonings.

Thank you for being here.
Thank you for existing.

@Drakel_3577 Oh, someone remember those discussions, how nostalgic. Yeah, Sotsu may have been ultimately quite flawed and rushed by the end, but it's not like there wasn't a lot of care and brilliance from the original source still in there (and tons and tons of direct developments from the VN's characterization and plot points, unfortunately not present in the anime adaptation for Higu/Kai/Rei, especially Rei), as well as some good old post-WTC2 Ryukishi over-the-top craziness (which kinda started in Matsuribayashi anyway haha).

Admittedly by the man himself, both anime and manga adaptations took their big share of liberties with his gigantic script for it, but even then, for what they did well up to that final stretch, there's a lot to be appreciated (alas, precisely not to create negative discussion on the adaptations with comparisons, he decided to never release it in any other format, it would be nice to see what would be in store for us in VN format).

Funny enough, we have the opposite situation with Bleach TYBW, as it's expanding upon the original material, but nonetheless at times also gets criticized a bit too harshly in some points that actually were reasonably written just the same, when considering some context.

nah that's absolute coping just go and read Wikipedia definition for real

The problem with this fight is not precisely that Nanao possessed a zampakuto with the power to defeat gods, but that of all the enemies, she faced the one who is precisely close to being a god, and that not having experience in combat she couldn't do much but reflect the attacks, and that wouldn't be a problem, but moments before she explain to the enemy that her sword reflects the attacks of the gods, and what is the enemy's strategy? go with his strongest attack until now self-destructing himself.

While you might be right, I still feel like Kubo could've at least hinted at it more in the story instead of relying on people to connect names to real items. I also think most people don't like that Nanao, who's done nothing this entire series can all of a sudden defeat Lillie. This arc is full of very convenient Ws for the good guys (Mayuri, Nanao, etc) without any loss or permanent damage to the soul reapers so people just wish that Lillie could've at least been treated better but he instead got one of the ugliest transformations in the series and then got defeated by a lieutenant who's done nothing prior. I still find it somewhat of an asspull solely because it's dumb that Shensui was put against a character who would later turn into a god unexpectedly, which is exactly what Nanao's sword can reflect.

nah that's absolute coping just go and read Wikipedia definition for real

Thank you pal. In fact, after understanding over the years that Bleach is full of symbolism and religious references, I began to appreciate the work more for its subtlety. I mean, it may have its shortcomings and plot conveniences, but labeling all the events as "asspulls" isn't fair either and overly simplistic.

nah that's absolute coping just go and read Wikipedia definition for real

amazing episode amazing music amazing adaptation, but the plot in that episodee was so fucking bad more you rewatch it and more it doesn't make anysense,random asspulled deus ex machina sword check,perfect counter ability check,nanao dosn't know how to use a sword check,explained power to lillee check,smart enemy become an idiot check, any way you watch it it just bad, you can foreshadow what you like in the name of the charachter but if the plot don't follow up from the start it is worthless and an asspull to everyone watchin it.

I fail to understand how understanding the cultural influence on Bleach makes this not an ass-pull
Why does Shunsui have the blade, why is the blade at the battle and not in Soul Society, why do the characters assume that it's going to work? (We saw the battle with 0 division, the characters did not)
There's several issues that the cultural influence doesn't even touch, that's what makes it a Deus ex Machina

Smart enemy becomes stupid?
I guess you don't understand or notice the differences. Lille had green wings and no arms, the monster that Nanao fights has gold and regrows his arms. The anime makes it blatant that this is no longer the Lille they were fighting at the beginning

This long essay just to justify Kubo asspull #184750 lol. May as well write an essay for every previous fight in the arc for similar reasons.

@Bastiono

Because, as reiterated about 5 times in this thread at this point, if you use aforementioned cultural elements as part of what composes the narrative in the first place, and do so since the start of the story, that CAN and SHOULD be considered elements that directly preceed this sort of plot developments as valid foreshadowing (something asspulls of course lack).

By your logic, so now, if a story literally is referencing Greek mythology and using it to hint on developments of the plot from the start, if suddenly a godlike powerful character named after Heracles received a bloody shirt from someone, and that is the cause of their death by poisoning, this is suddenly an asspull? The foreshadowing in that case, much like in here, would be popular culture and knowledge about those very elements that compose the tale in the first place (which will definitely be more widely recognized by Japanese people, because Shinto), and those come from the mythos and cultural background they are referencing to.

If there's foreshadowing (be it symbolic, in your face, semiotical, or whatever gives) that means there's something that can make you see it coming, which automatically contrasts the very definition of what one may classify as asspull/deus-ex-machina in that sense.


As for your questions:

1- Shunsui has the blade because he was told to hold onto it, as explained by the flashback. That was just an explanation, not the root of an issue. The real question would be where was Nanao's zanpakutou. Shunsui having it on himself or not changes little other than the provided context as to why.

2- And why exactly would the sword HAVE to be in Soul Society? That's not a plot problem the way it was explained in any way, and much like the first question, the context justifies its presence without inconsistencies, and that's all that matters; the storytelling works fine as is. Speaking of which, the blade is concealed by his own zanpakutou's powers, no different from other zanpakutou powers that have been displayed for hundreds of chapters to be always active in some way (like Kensei's, Aizen's and Ichigo's, though only Aizen is constantly using his illusory abilities per se).

3- Why shouldn't they assume that it's going to work, when their entire (Soul) Society is literally all about those Mythological/Religious conventions being super powers for the characters, and/or being used to make parallels and develop the story towards what is being symbolically referred to by the storytelling? I'm sure that question should answer that by itself at this point.

4- We saw the battle with Zero Division, and it DID work. Barro was defeated by those 8 Mirrors, and the sole reason why they are alive after the battle with Senjumaru was because of Antithesis and Yhwach's Auswählen transferring them power at will (since this was his ability being hinted at ever since Yamamoto fought his clone, which was only able to be a convincing placeholder because it was a Sternritter all about that ability; and mind you, THAT could be considered a diabolus ex machina if anything, for an example that actually holds ground to those asspull claims).

--------------------------------

Repeating for the last time, an asspull or a deus-ex-machina are quite literally described as the opposite of just that, as in, no hint towards those specific developments being disputed (and I just demonstrated there WERE hints all over the place including for this for a while in the story, and for that, it was already part of mass speculation in theory crafting about the story).

But if you may, do mention all these other several issues you think aren't touched by what I said however, since they could bring forth something else to be discussed.

@Danpmss it explained that Shunsui had the blade IN THAT EPISODE, as several YouTubers have mentioned, there's no hint of it being anywhere before, and these are people who reacted to the original chapters as well, so knew to look for clues

Logically, even if we knew the blade was passed down through the family, before the flashback, it would be reasonable to assume the family still had hold of it, back in Soul Society. Shunsui never touched it.
Lille,by his own admission, is not a god,so by every right, there was no reason to assume, much less as avidly as Nanao was claiming, that it would be effective against Lille