Honzuki no Gekokujou: Shisho ni Naru Tame ni wa Shudan wo Erandeiraremasen 2nd Season Episode 5 Discussion
DO NOT discuss the source material beyond this episode. If you want to discuss future events or theories, please use separate threads.
DO NOT ask where to watch/download this episode or give links to copyrighted, non-fair use material.
DO NOT troll/bait/harass/abuse other users for liking or disliking the series/characters.
DO read the Anime Discussion Rules and Site & Forum Guidelines.
DO NOT ask where to watch/download this episode or give links to copyrighted, non-fair use material.
DO NOT troll/bait/harass/abuse other users for liking or disliking the series/characters.
DO read the Anime Discussion Rules and Site & Forum Guidelines.
Dairosh82 said: It is just me or is someone else getting rapey vibes from the story Delia told about the Arch Bishop and why Myne didn't rescure her? That's what I was thinking too |
| Ah, I should have waited for more episodes to come out. So happy to have this anime back again. |
A Wild and Small Otaku has Appeared! |
| Fulfilling episode as always, but I can't see anything comes for the next episode. I hope it keep become better like how s1 executed! |
| Watch aria the animation and it's sequel. |
| Myne makes me cry T----T I'm so proud if her! She helps all orphans. Hard life with kids always makes me feel pity for them. I'm glad Myne is there to help them Head priest is too cruel to put Myne in detention cell!! :( |
| Proverbs 4:23 Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. |
| Awwww, this was such a wholesome episode. But they really are doing it, they're making a Main Faith XDDDD. |
| Yuritopia FTW!!!!!!!!! BANZAI TO YURI !!!!!!!!!!!! |
| As wholesome and fun as this anime can be, I haven't been able to shake the feeling that there was something "off" about it. I think I've figured out what it is, though. The recurrent subtext of this show boils down to the idiom of the "good buy with a gun". The idea being that there isn't an inherent problem with the system; rather, the system is fine and instead the people in charge of the system are to blame for the rampant inequity. We've seen hints of this idea throughout the series, but things really came to a head with the orphanage arc. Main's mantra of "those who don't work don't eat" is problematic to begin with. But in the context of this stratified society it glosses over the disproportionate balance of power and the fact that ultimately whether people eat - or live, for that matter - is at the grace of the nobility. Case in point, the orphans are literal non-entities and allowed to starve and die. And yes, I'm aware the Head Priest is unhappy with the state of the church, and does nothing to avoid rousing the ire of the High Priest. But while the show casts a critical eye on the iniquity of this fantasy social order, it also pedals the philosophy that if only everyone were willing to work, they'd be "rewarded" in kind. Which seems bizarre since at face value the incredible stratification of society in the story seems to present more than a few problems for this philosophy. Solutions to problems presented in the narrative always end with a person in a position of relative power being "good" or doing the right thing, for some reason. Benno doesn't care abut Main, until he does; Frida just wants to make money, until she doesn't, the Head Priest happens to not be a typical noble interested in reinforcing the status quo. The story focuses on "bad" vs "good" people and not on the fact that a flawed system is a significant part of the problem that needs to be rectified. Even Main seems strangely un-phased by a lot of the inequity she witnesses first-hand. Yes, she is shocked by the treatment of the orphans, but was this really that surprising given everything else she'd seen up to that point? No, I don't expect her to jump straight into fomenting bloody revolution, but the social issues in this show are without doubt an elephant in the room. Ultimately, I don't really get why a show that is supposedly just about an isekai'ed character who is obsessed with books is trying to grapple with complex social issues. |
SSL443May 26, 2020 3:43 AM
penrhos said: Up to this point Mynes main goals have been:- 1) Not to die from the devouring. 2) To be with her new family (this will be expanded on later this series but without giving too much of a spoiler it's to do with a magic headband & what Myne realises after using it - assuming they adapt that bit). 3) To be able to read and create books. 4) To be a librarian. All the time she's doing this there are multiple power struggles going on in the kingdom that she isn't aware of with each layer of society being in fear and under control of the one above it, one false move that angers someone in the class layer above and you and your family could be executed. The bottom layer is already established as Mynes parents/friends/neighbours and Benno/Frida even though they are upper-class commoners are fearful of meeting Nobles & Priests as one wrong step spells doom and they both know that money and contacts are the way to survive and prosper. At this point only the lower classes, low-church and low-nobles have even been introduced, there's at least two more layers of class to come - all are pulling the strings and controlling the ones below them. And the orphanage is just somewhere to dump the babies created by the grey shrine-maidens offering "Flowers" to guests and as such they are hidden away out of sight. In this world the mortality rate is so high that an un-baptised child has no worth. Your last point is correct - she is just a book obsessed Japanese girl isekai'd into a feudal world similar to Europe in the dark ages, what is different is the effects her desires have on people around her and the small changes she causes that will eventually ripple outwards to make bigger changes. She's improved Lutz's outlook from I'll do what my parents do to I want to be a merchant, Tulli wants to better herself to be a seamstress, her retainers are learning to read/write and to be responsible for their actions (and not to rely on gifts of food). The orphans would get left over food from the priests regardless, Mynes "those who don't work don't eat" refers to the extra food that's being purchased from the profits made by the paper and other things made in the orphanage - this should mean that the orphanage should become self-supporting so even if something happened to Myne they would be OK. There's so much more world-building and background detail in the LN - the Anime is good but everything is glossed over and simplified to the point where there are a few glaring holes. Big spoiler alert... Yes, I'm aware of all of this. The subtext I identified in my previous comment is consequent to the plot details you restate above. The implicit commentary of the narrative depends on the content of the narrative. Hopefully we're on the same page here. As a result, the things that the story chooses to portray, as well as the tone with which they are portrayed, allows us to make deductions about how the story views the events of the plot, and possibly how we are intended to view them, by extension. It should be obvious that one of the core motifs of Ascendance of a Bookworm is capitalism. There is also ample evidence that capitalism is portrayed by the story in a positive light, given the frequency with which capitalist thinking benefits various characters. In particular, capitalism is presented as a means of at least limited social mobility within the commoner class, as well as a means by which a person can present value to the upper classes. This is one example of how a socio-economic system is presented by the story as a “solution” to the problems of the narrative. But more important, the emphasis is placed by the story on the people within the system, both in terms of critical and laudable examination. My thesis is that the story is glossing over potential systemic flaws in favor of placing the blame on individuals - both for misusing the system due to malicious intent, as well as failing to use the system due to insufficient initiative. In other words, dysfunction in the social order can be traced back solely to bad actors, rather than inherent flaws in the system. I want to point out that these observations can be applied to the story well from before the beginning of the church arc. The events of the church arc only serve to solidify the themes introduced in preceding arcs. The problem is that capitalist ideals - or the ideals of any socioeconomic philosophy, for that matter - are just that: ideals. They aren't anywhere near as clean in practice. We know that social mobility is not a reality for the majority, that a willingness and even a capability to do work is not a guarantee of livelihood or basic standard of living, and that the tenets of capitalism are often undermined by the successful in order to multiply their existing advantage. But wait, there's more. Main’s aphorism “He who does not work, neither shall he eat” bears special re-examination here, as it applies to my idea of a “sound system, flawed people” in multiple ways. First, it has capitalist connotations, which reinforces the themes from earlier in the story as I outlined above. In particular, it emphasizes the notion that an individual who fails to conform with the system will essentially be an outcast, and ultimately dead; because not eating generally ends in death, as the story kindly reminds us. (And yes, I'm aware that this aphorism has been appropriated by at least one socialist regime; I can read Wikipedia, too). But second, this aphorism has religious meaning. In fact, it’s from the New Testament. And so emerges our second “system” present in the story. Placing a religious aphorism on the lips of the main (ha) character can’t really be interpreted as anything else than an endorsement of, if not religion in general, then some interpretation thereof as best suits the disposition of the narrative. After all, Main has joined the church and is on her way to becoming a priestess; calling these details a coincidence would be a stretch. This refutes your claim that this phrase was only applicable as a plot detail to the extra food that Main provided for the orphans. There is no doubt that the use of this particular language is an intentional thematic choice that applies more broadly to the story as a whole, much less the orphanage arc in particular. Stories are written by people, so we can assume that everything that happens in a story is for a reason, whether intentional or subconscious. I find it significant that Main isn’t simply depicted as improving the orphan’s quality of life, but also goes through the song and dance of making them work to earn extra food. Yes, this is obviously a positive experience for the orphans; but including this particular detail is significant because this is a story, not real life. Every detail matters and was put in place by the author for a reason. In terms of Main’s character development, we didn’t really need to see anything beyond her desire to help the orphans and her subsequent resolve to follow through with her plan to do so. The conclusion, then, is that the story wants to emphasize this particular idea of, basically, not being allowed to live if an individual is of no “value” to society. Remember, the story already established that the “alms” are in short supply due to the attrition of blue-robed priests. These kids are living like animals and dying if their basic needs aren't supplemented. The reason I find the way the story depicts these ideas disconcerting is because it doesn’t leave much room in the narrative for the application of human rights; the idea that people are entitled to a certain standard of existence by virtue of being human. Even Main, who is supposedly the product of a “modern”, enlightened society, espouses religious aphorisms when given the opportunity to take a more aggressive stance on the side of progressivism. I find that significant. It’s also a clear example of what I mean when the story chooses not to find fault with the existing systems, and doesn’t deign to look beyond them for external solutions or philosophies. At best, it’s reductive and oversimplifying complex issues; at worst, it’s peddling a specific socio-religious philosophy in the guise of feel-good entertainment. So once again bringing it back to my original point, the story is making a careful effort to avoid criticism of the systems depicted in the narrative. Instead, corrupt individuals (or a corrupt class) are rendered as the culprits perpetrating the deep societal inequity that leads to in-world issues such as the Devouring, or real-world issues like child abuse and human-rights violations. At the same time, the story suggests that the solution is for good people to use existing systems (capitalism, religion) in the “right” way - rather than identifying the need to supplement the establishment with new systems or new philosophies to meet the challenge of addressing the problem. |
SSL443May 26, 2020 9:31 PM
AlexNG said: The lesson she eventually learns is more like, don't try to mess around 'rectifying' the system based on modern sensibilities, unless you completely understand that system and are in control of the consequences, or people are going to get hurt; until that time, just settle on helping individuals you meet personally. This world is a bit like Harry Potter, except the wizards rule the world instead of hiding from it for some reason. The non-magical commoners have absolutely no chance, unless they somehow invent anti-magic weapons and armor or something. Main's mantra of "those who don't work don't eat" is problematic to begin with. It has two meanings here: "I won't pay retainers who refuse to work, even if I can't just fire them", and "work to earn your own food, instead of patiently waiting for nobles to give something to you". Case in point, the orphans are literal non-entities and allowed to starve and die. Actually, all non-baptized children are effectively property of their parents (or an orphanage). A large part of the reason is probably that until being bound to that medal they put a blood seal on during baptism, the person basically doesn't exist for the magic systems governing the country - no barriers detecting citizens, spells targeting citizens etc would work. Solutions to problems presented in the narrative always end with a person in a position of relative power being "good" or doing the right thing, for some reason. Since Myne has no power of her own to "fight the system" as you seem to want her to do, all solutions to her problems are fundamentally based on finding powerful allies. I don't particularly "want" Main to do anything one way or another. I'm simply commenting on what I've identified as the underlying themes and subtext of the story as a consequence of how the story has already been told. The fact that Main doesn't have the power to fight the system is not really the point, although it is still significant. More important is what the story decides the characters are capable of, as well as the attitudes of the characters towards their own capabilities or lack thereof. We could argue endlessly over what Main should or should not be capable of with her current abilities. The answer would be irrelevant because this is a story, and the author of the story gets to decide what actually happens. And our interpretation of what happens in the story is how we determine what the author may be trying to say with the story. |
AlexNG said: If you are expecting some kind of woke one girl through her mysterious girl power somehow reforms the whole society and builds a communist utopia story, you've come to the wrong place. This story is about a poor girl rising to the top of a fantasy society based on medieval Europe and feudal Japan with addition of magic, by using her modern knowledge, magic powers, and developing people skills, in order to protect her family & friends, and become a librarian. No, I don't "expect" anything, either. I'm making observations about the story as it is. Also, spoiler, it turns out gods are real here, so the 'religion is inherently bad' stance doesn't apply either; if anything the problem is the nobles and the church for the most part just giving lip service to it and not really believing anymore. That's what I'm saying. The story is portraying religion as blameless and pinning everything on the bad people. A "no true Scotsman" argument, in other words. And keep in mind, I'm talking about the sub-textual meaning of the story, not the literal details of the plot. Saying that "religion can't be bad in this world because gods are real" is not an argument, because the author chose to write it that way. What I'm really commenting on is that decision, not the plot itself. |
penrhos said: Indeed - however one thing stands out above most other Isakai adaptations. The Author has world-built to the levels of:- 1) Designing a coherent polygamous faith system. 2) Designing a multi-class system. 3) Designing a coherent cityscape with layers defined by class. 4) Slowly reviling the layers of this new world as the MC's knowledge grows. 5) Slowly building up the MC's powers as her world knowledge grows. 6) Designing a basic geo-political and physical landscape for outside the city walls. 7) Designing a magic power system with it's own inbuilt "class system". Yes, and? Not sure how this is relevant. Ultimately Myne is a capitalist as she is driven by the desire to create wealth and create goods for people to desire and purchase. People hoping for her to overthrow the system and establish a new world order are probably going to be disappointed (well at least as far as I've managed to read). Again, as I've said many times now, I'm not "hoping" for one outcome for another. I certainly don't want this to be yet another wish-fulfillment power fantasy where an OP MC magically rights all wrongs. What I do find remarkable are the significant but not necessarily obvious clues to the ideology that this story is espousing, and which I have already explicated at length in my previous comments. What I take issue with is not what has or has not happened in the story, but rather the thematic suggestions regarding how problems should be or will be solved. This observation has been reinforced by philosophical/ideological statements that the story has chosen to make, while others are conspicuously absent. Ultimately, I think you're misinterpreting my comments as a criticism of Main the character, when I'm really trying to get a the subtext and deeper meaning of the story. She's also a feminist as she hates the idea of being a mistress/concubine/baby factory for a noble and early on she tells Ferdinand after using the crushing on the bishop "If you cannot live the way you want you may as well die". Yeah, that's fine. It doesn't really address what I've been saying, through. |
AlexNG said: One thing to note, is that by banning Christianity (for a period of almost 300 years) as soon as missionaries started making trouble, Japan has remained a truly pagan country. Thus there is no popular concept of "the religion", "the church" being a thing that dictates to the society. Pagan gods demand worship, have an agenda and may grant favors to people they like, but they don't give commandments that everybody must follow or else - they are more something like very powerful fairies. Even after Christianity was unbanned, it's perceived more like 'yet another god'. Okay? What matters is the author, not the popular perception of religion in Japan. |
AlexNG said: The author is Japanese. You seem to be implying there is one and only type of '“modern”, enlightened society', which has one right set of views. My impression from the vast majority of anime I've watched is pretty much is that Japan isn't much different from the US or other nations on similar socioeconomic footing. Which shouldn't be surprising given how WWII reconstruction went. Which is why I find this anime to be unusual. |
| @SSL443 There is no political hidden message in this story. Stop trying to find one everywhere, you look like an US citizen right now. And because the Author is Japanese, she's probably NOT Christian either, which means that there is no such related message to find either. |
ZefyrisMay 27, 2020 4:49 AM
 |
Zefyris said: @SSL443 @penrhos Spoilers of things happening after the current episode are NOT allowed in episode thread, EVEN in spoiler tag. So now please go through your discussion and remove all of them. If you're not a mod, don't tell me what to do. Do it again, and I'll tell you where to go. Also, there is no political hidden message in this story. Stop trying to find one everywhere, you look like an US citizen right now. And because the Author is Japanese, she's probably NOT Christian either, which means that there is no such related message to find either. It's not really "hidden", but whatever. I guess the alternative conclusion is the writing is just bad. Being Japanese doesn't preclude someone from being Christian, and there isn't enough evidence to say either way. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. |
AlexNG said: If the idea of an outsider trying to learn, adapt and blend into a foreign society, while pursuing their goals and bringing in small gradual change where possible, instead of declaring the whole society "evil" from the start and overthrowing it by force of whatever, is a political message, then yes, there is one I suppose. Yes, you finally got it. That's what I've been saying all along /s. |
penrhos said: Zefyris said: @SSL443 @penrhos Spoilers of things happening after the current episode are NOT allowed in episode thread, EVEN in spoiler tag. So now please go through your discussion and remove all of them. Also, there is no political hidden message in this story. Stop trying to find one everywhere, you look like an US citizen right now. And because the Author is Japanese, she's probably NOT Christian either, which means that there is no such related message to find either. Cleaned - can't do the quoted stuff - don't see why I should as you're not a Moderator but just to keep the peace.. AFAIK - the spoiler tag is for anything that could be considered a spoiler otherwise what's the point in having it? BTW I'm an atheist and live in the free world not the USA and am well aware the author is Japanese and the world is a fantasy one... Thanks. It's just to avoid to involve/bother/ giving more work to moderators when peoples are mature enough to modify their post. After all Just because someone did something he/she shouldn't have doesn't mean that he/she did it while being aware that (s)he shouldn't do it. A moderator would just have removed it rather than asking, so I'm not playing moderator here. And yeah, look at the line automatically created in bold/maj on the first post when you create an episode discussion. And yes, the last part wasn't for you. |
ZefyrisMay 27, 2020 4:03 AM
|
Zefyris said: Thanks. It's just to avoid to involve/bother/ giving more work to moderators when peoples are mature enough to modify their post. After all Just because someone did something he/she shouldn't have doesn't mean that he/she did it while being aware that (s)he shouldn't do it. A moderator would just have removed it rather than asking, so I'm not playing moderator here. You are playing moderator by definition. I'll modify my post if requested by a moderator; at this point I see zero value in compromising the context of the discussion. It certainly isn't your place to instruct the activity of other forum users. AlexNG said: You also seem to be implying that it is bad. What is "it"? There is a very well known Soviet science fiction series, part of which involves the future communist Earth sending 'agents of progress' to other planets to lead them to communism. Yet even those explicitly politically aimed agents are rigorously trained to blend in and act subtly and secretly, because going in guns blazing doesn't lead to anything good, even if your firepower makes you a god to the locals. Cool. As I've said multiple times now, I do not want to see Main go in "guns blazing". That would not address my commentary in any way. penrhos said: It's one of the few Isekai series I've watched where the MC is actually subverting the establishment rather than using her OP to beat it. Myne may not realise what she's doing but her actions are radical and could bring round a minor revolution. Sure, because most isekai are forgettable carbon copies of the same wish-fulfillment, self-insert formula. It remains to be seen if or how the show decides Main will change the status quo in a meaningful way. |
| Great to see the orphanage getting a lot better treatment compared to the hellhole it was before Well pretty obvious to see that Trombe comes from the Tau fruit infused with mana, which basically means Main has found her goldmine here |
 |
| Well, Myne just became a savior for so many people.. ;P And also.. Here we have a first massive alphabet learner.. ;P I mean, if these cards with letters become popular - very big amount of people can actually learn letters.. If not even everyone, who use them.. We're really having big jump here.. ;P Well, as education is very important in the progress of science and everything.. And if those tomatoes really can be another release for mana.. I say - it's even for better, really.. Fuck nobility and church.. ;P Though, also these tomatoes in particular can grow into very dangerous things.. So it should be treated with great care, really.. |
| Lucky orphans those, they got someone as Myne helping out them. And slowly but surely things are improving for them. Also by an off chance seems like Myne got her hands on something really valuable. |
 |
| This looks like the second incidence with the trombe with her just touching it, this time she turned a taue fruit into a trombe...so it was her mana that first time too? |
| You see there's no need to wonder where your god is, Coz he's right here! ...and he's fresh out of mercy. |
| Funny, I totally forgot about the magic fruits. She probably used too much mana and tired herself out. Good to see Fran is getting the ropes of it. |
 |
| Funny how Main keeps bringing all these inventons and innovations to this world while water balloons came pre-packaged in the form of a fruit of all things. If that one old guy represented how the average blue robe acted it's no wonder Main got popular pretty quick. |
More topics from this board
Poll: » Honzuki no Gekokujou: Shisho ni Naru Tame ni wa Shudan wo Erandeiraremasen 2nd Season Episode 11 Discussion ( 1 2 3 )Stark700 - Jun 13, 2020 |
105 |
by jasutin_hoshi
»»
Sep 19, 2024 12:02 AM |
|
Poll: » Honzuki no Gekokujou: Shisho ni Naru Tame ni wa Shudan wo Erandeiraremasen 2nd Season Episode 10 Discussion ( 1 2 )Stark700 - Jun 6, 2020 |
73 |
by jasutin_hoshi
»»
Sep 18, 2024 11:33 PM |
|
Poll: » Honzuki no Gekokujou: Shisho ni Naru Tame ni wa Shudan wo Erandeiraremasen 2nd Season Episode 12 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 )Stark700 - Jun 20, 2020 |
154 |
by Rexnihilo
»»
Aug 8, 2024 4:45 PM |
|
Poll: » Honzuki no Gekokujou: Shisho ni Naru Tame ni wa Shudan wo Erandeiraremasen 2nd Season Episode 8 Discussion ( 1 2 )Stark700 - May 23, 2020 |
91 |
by Rexnihilo
»»
Aug 8, 2024 3:53 PM |
|
Poll: » Honzuki no Gekokujou: Shisho ni Naru Tame ni wa Shudan wo Erandeiraremasen 2nd Season Episode 7 Discussion ( 1 2 )Stark700 - May 16, 2020 |
83 |
by Rexnihilo
»»
Aug 8, 2024 3:41 PM |