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| So many triggered people in this thread. xD |
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gotterdammerung said: this entire thread is a huge mess between the people like "um tr*p is transphobic you weebs ugh i cant even" and the people like "HE is a TRAP! triggered, snowflake??" (both of these are hyperboles), i felt my IQ lower when reading this thread anyways i liked this episode. its a shame it couldnt have been a bit more serious; lily's death and her dad's stature, which was obviously meant to be humorous, kinda ruined the mood. great episode regardless although i find it funny that both camps are being a snowflake. anyway on topic are we ever going to find out the truth of yamada tae? wait..... what if yamada tae is actually related to the manager? |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
AsukaHellsoldier said: 1 - Lily said SHE did not want to become like him, and is panicking over bodily hair. 2 - Lily said SHE was and is Lily 3 - You guys, who take everything for granted, should learn empathy. Particularly you, the author of the quote above. Does any of that change Lily from not being a trap tho? Lily's still having a dude's body while dressing as a chick. |
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| The part where the father smashed the TV was great. I feel bad for Lily fans now that they know it's a trap. lol |
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| To be honest, I really didn't expect much from this anime from the beginning. I was expecting to drop this show from the 2nd episode. But my mind changed from watching more episodes of this show. I gave it a 6/10 at first but then I changed my mind and gave it a 7, and now 8. This episode was really emotional, I knew this would happen somehow. Our zombie idols meeting their still alive relatives, friends or acquaintances. |
| “What do you do when there is an evil you cannot defeat by just means? Do you stain your hands with evil to destroy evil? Or do you remain steadfastly just and righteous even if it means surrendering to evil?” ― Lelouch Vi Britannia |
AsukaHellsoldier said: 5layer said: The part where the father smashed the TV was great. I feel bad for Lily fans now that they know it's a trap. lol It, eh? Interesting choice of pronoum. Not dehumanizing at all. I couldn't care less. |
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Because the person we're talking about isn't real? |
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| Imma debunk these AsukaHellsoldier said: Let's try a thought experiment. Rather than me snapping and us going nowhere, let's try to imagine something. Imagine being called by a name you hate. Imagine you want to forget you have something about you that you want to forget. It can be anything really, so long as it helps you imagine it. And now imagine every kid in school reminding you of it, even cracking jokes about it. Now imagine that thing you want to forget becoming more and more visible. Imagine the world not giving a damn about anything else about you, except that that you wish wasn't there. Imagine your personality, and everything that you are mattering nothing. Imagine being the butt of an endless array of jokes. Imagine nobody will ever treat you right, and you're doomed to be a joke in the eyes of everyone, and people even sing songs about beating you up. Imagine everyone treating you like a disappointment even though you did nothing wrong. Now, imagine a blade... (Okay okay, let's stop it here.) Nothing but gish gallop and red herring here. Not necessarily true. ”A japanese trap is a character in an anime where that characters gender appears to be that of a female but in actuality the character is male” ^ Most common trap tropes. In episode, Lily was shown that she was Masao who used to dresses as a girl named Lily for her job as child actress. So Lily qualifies to be one. AsukaHellsoldier said: She is doing it for herself. Either because she simply likes the clothing and style (Otoko no Ko/Crossdresser) or because she wants to live as a girl as is mentally, psychologically and identity-wise as a female (Transgender). She hated the male characteristics of her body. Inncorect. Lily never stated that she hates the male characters of her body, she hates growing up. After she became a zombie, she was happy for not being able to grow up and stay exactly the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsJM_Xfjyx0&t=50s ^ 1:04 ”I am never growing up 1:09 ”I don’t want to look like you, Pappy!” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqDDzXo-b8s ^ 0:00 ”I am not gonna grow up” Also, Lily only referred to herself as either Lily or Masao. She never refer to herself as male or female. AsukaHellsoldier said: It's called Gender Dysphoria, and all decent psychologists around the world know this. And because of how trans people are treated, around 40% of them attempt suicide in their youth. And they are more prone to being the target violence and death, because guys felt they were being ''entrapped''. Well too bad Lily don’t hate her own gender, whether it’s male or female. At least she never stated so. She hated that she was starting to grow up when she was alive. AsukaHellsoldier said: To sum it up: It's not about You, it's about Her. Lily wanted to be a girl, and acted like one. She is one. Also, I suggested above to search for images of Kayo Satoh, and Ayana Tsubaki, and low I suggest Alicia Liu. Tell me all about their ''dude's body''. Lily didn’t want to grow up. She wanted to stay the way she look. And she never mentioned what gender she wanted nor referred herself as either male or female. So Lily’s being a trans is purely your headcanon. |
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| Got a bit of info on Lily's past this week. Cute. Quite an emotional episode. I'll say this episode 6 to 8 are quiet good and emotional ones. |
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| The whole discussion surrounding Lilly is everything wrong with this aspect of the political environment. An ideologue never fails to make something about their cause. This kind of ridiculous poison is seeping into every corner of the internet and society in general. |
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AsukaHellsoldier said: -It's called a Thought Experiment. In this case, putting yourself in someone's shoes and perhaps realizing that prejudice is wrong, because you wouldn't want that done upon you. Empathy perhaps? This, you're commiting argumentum ad passiones. AsukaHellsoldier said: -''Watch out, It's a TRAP!!'' - I know of the term and what it stands for. There are other words. ''Crossdresser'', ''Otoko no Ko'', ''Hideyoshi'' even. Trap has, or at least, gained a negative connotation. So much so that while some trans girls (in the Otaku circle, likely) don't mind it, most do. Whether the word trap itself negative or not, don't really change Lily from being one. Another argumentum ad passiones and arguably red herring too. AsukaHellsoldier said: -And now I ask: Why is it that she didn't want to grow up? And why did she react like that to the facial hair? It's curious, because hatred of facial hair is an indicator of gender dysphoria (not that everyone that hates having facial hair is trans). She feared that she would be like her dad that if she grew up. ”I don’t want to look like you, Pappy!” That's body dysphoria. AsukaHellsoldier said: Also, Lily didn't just wear female clothing in her job. She felt most comfortable in them. This by itself is not a sign of gender dysphoria, though. So, Lily likes crossdressing? AsukaHellsoldier said: -Look, I have Asperger's. I am the one who's supposed to not being good at reading between the lines, or bad at mood reading. In Yuri anime, rarely will you EVER hear anyone say ''I am lesbian'' or '' I am bi''. That happened like, in ''Aoi Hana''? Except you're using a false analogy. A character isn't a trans unless it's shown otherwise. Which for Lily's case, never. AsukaHellsoldier said: -Now, quoting Kotaro, the ever amusing producer: ''So what? She's can't be a part of your girly club anymore?''. Add Saki-san's comment on the ''junk'' not mattering, and Lily's insistance that's she's Lily. These alone would not be enough to prove anything. Put everything we have until now together, and if nothing else, there is a strong suggestion of transgenderism. You mean this one?  And nice try with the cherry picks. http://imgur.com/a/Z8SmJJw
The whole thing basically means Lily and the rest of the girls are zombies and don't really age. Nothing to do with being trans or anything. AsukaHellsoldier said: If she didn't grow up, she wouldn't have to deal with body changes, period. It's not like she was informed of alternatives like Pubery Blockers or anything of that sort. The fear of that is body dysphoria, which obviously isn't a gender dysphoria. A fear to having a grown up body isn't simply a fear of becoming a man. AsukaHellsoldier said: Now, you can accuse me of doing my best to prove that Lily is trans... But aren't you just doing the same in reverse? And why so, by the way? This is an open forum for people to discuss things, so feel free to express your argument. And no appeal to motive please. |
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| For those people getting offended because we are saying that Lily is a trap, fuck off. This isn't a despective word. If you think that Lily is a trans, good for you, but DON'T FORCE YOUR OPINION AND STOP ARGUING WHO HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION. |
Malfin said: AsukaHellsoldier said: -It's called a Thought Experiment. In this case, putting yourself in someone's shoes and perhaps realizing that prejudice is wrong, because you wouldn't want that done upon you. Empathy perhaps? This, you're commiting argumentum ad passiones. AsukaHellsoldier said: -''Watch out, It's a TRAP!!'' - I know of the term and what it stands for. There are other words. ''Crossdresser'', ''Otoko no Ko'', ''Hideyoshi'' even. Trap has, or at least, gained a negative connotation. So much so that while some trans girls (in the Otaku circle, likely) don't mind it, most do. Whether the word trap itself negative or not, don't really change Lily from being one. Another argumentum ad passiones and arguably red herring too. AsukaHellsoldier said: -And now I ask: Why is it that she didn't want to grow up? And why did she react like that to the facial hair? It's curious, because hatred of facial hair is an indicator of gender dysphoria (not that everyone that hates having facial hair is trans). She feared that she would be like her dad that if she grew up. ”I don’t want to look like you, Pappy!” That's body dysphoria. AsukaHellsoldier said: Also, Lily didn't just wear female clothing in her job. She felt most comfortable in them. This by itself is not a sign of gender dysphoria, though. So, Lily likes crossdressing? AsukaHellsoldier said: -Look, I have Asperger's. I am the one who's supposed to not being good at reading between the lines, or bad at mood reading. In Yuri anime, rarely will you EVER hear anyone say ''I am lesbian'' or '' I am bi''. That happened like, in ''Aoi Hana''? Except you're using a false analogy. A character isn't a trans unless it's shown otherwise. Which for Lily's case, never. AsukaHellsoldier said: -Now, quoting Kotaro, the ever amusing producer: ''So what? She's can't be a part of your girly club anymore?''. Add Saki-san's comment on the ''junk'' not mattering, and Lily's insistance that's she's Lily. These alone would not be enough to prove anything. Put everything we have until now together, and if nothing else, there is a strong suggestion of transgenderism. You mean this one? And nice try with the cherry picks. http://imgur.com/a/Z8SmJJw
The whole thing basically means Lily and the rest of the girls are zombies and don't really age. Nothing to do with being trans or anything. AsukaHellsoldier said: If she didn't grow up, she wouldn't have to deal with body changes, period. It's not like she was informed of alternatives like Pubery Blockers or anything of that sort. The fear of that is body dysphoria, which obviously isn't a gender dysphoria. A fear to having a grown up body isn't simply a fear of becoming a man. AsukaHellsoldier said: Now, you can accuse me of doing my best to prove that Lily is trans... But aren't you just doing the same in reverse? And why so, by the way? This is an open forum for people to discuss things, so feel free to express your argument. And no appeal to motive please. -The Appeal to Emotion argument would make sense in a purely technical discussion. This isn't a purely technical discussion. In fact, if memory serves me right, I used the thought experiment on someone who was being disrespectful. Will not back down from this point. IN FACT, I remember the person in question questioning transgenderism itself. -So, being depreciative is irrelevant to you? Simple yes or no will do. Couldn't the idea of Lily being a crossdresser be addressed more politely? -It can be as you state: That Lily hated the idea of growing up. It can be however that it was not just body dysphoria but also gender dysphoria. -Okay, the possibility of mere gender non-comformity (liking to crossdress, simply) is there. But as mentioned before, can be read as transgenderism. -Sure sure. A trans has to downright shout to the world that he/she is transgender, just like a gay has to shout it to the world that he's gay. Have you ever heard of ''Show, don't tell''? Things of this nature, are more often than not suggested in Japanese popular fiction rather than stated. -I don't exclude the age factor. Yet, if you mean to say that Kotaro uses the name Masao in there, I'll have to interject. In the manga Bokura no Hentai, the protagonist Marika is still referred to as Yuta (if I remember it right) by her best friend. ALSO...Could it be that you ignore that young trans people, many of them, hate puberty? You haven't answered for one second WHY she hated the idea of growing up. You're stuck on the fact she hated it, but you haven't even addressed why she did. -You're obviously free to discuss the matter on your terms, and since you didn't attack me, I don't have an issue with talking to you about it. I just read my latter comments and realized I left a wrong impression there. My bad. BlackScience said: For those people getting offended because we are saying that Lily is a trap, fuck off. This isn't a despective word. If you think that Lily is a trans, good for you, but DON'T FORCE YOUR OPINION AND STOP ARGUING WHO HAS A DIFFERENT OPINION. Right back at ya. |
| I am Aleister Morningstar, once General of the 13th Battalion of the Hellsoldiers, and now the Grand-Lord of the Grand Order of the Hellsoldier. I am Hellsoldier, first and foremost. |
I'm not forcing to people that trap is the right word. If you don't like, it's your problem, trap isn't a slur word. |
BIack99Nov 25, 2018 4:49 PM
| Because how we react to fictional characters can't possibly show how we'd treat similar cases in real life. |
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AsukaHellsoldier said: Look, you may not mean to use it as a slur, but GLAAD and other LGBT organizations list it as such, and the reason for that is that it is often used as such. Why should I care about that? Kike is an offensive word for jew people but is very common in Latam, look that guy that got banned in PSN because that. (After of a big backlash from Internet he recovered his account) Because is offensive in a community doesn't mean that your force or argue to people that use that word, there aren't intend to offend someone. This is an anime community, not a LGBT one. |
BIack99Nov 25, 2018 5:58 PM
AsukaHellsoldier said: Okay, look. it's obvious I'm not calling for people to be banned from this site on the grounds of the use of the word trap, specially in light on it's use in Otaku culture. With that said, the topic at hand involves the community in one way or another. Let me put it this way: If a slur was constantly thrown around and you were part of the target community, you wouldn't find it amusing at all, rightfully so. So, I would not ban people that use the word trap, but It is my right to suggest otherwise. Also, there's a large LGBT fandom in anime. Sorry, but they should deal with it. Like I said before, there aren't intend to offend someone. If someone get offended by that, then is his/her problem. Someone can't come out of nowhere and say, "Hey, that's offensive to me, please use other word", looks ridiculous to me. We were in peace until those people are started to say that "trap" is an offensive word and then pages like ANN and AniList started to ban that word. I know that you don't want to ban it but please, understand. |
BIack99Nov 25, 2018 6:35 PM
| That was an emotional performance by Franchouchou primarily lead by Lily Hoshikawa! This episode was centered to Lily's Pappy! 5/5. |
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| What makes me mad is that all these transphobic comments misgendering her and shit is part of the reason why she fucking died -- she didn't want to be seen as male because that's not who she was. She's a girl. Her fear of not being accepted as one and going through the wrong puberty caused her heart to give out. |
BlackScience said: AsukaHellsoldier said: Okay, look. it's obvious I'm not calling for people to be banned from this site on the grounds of the use of the word trap, specially in light on it's use in Otaku culture. With that said, the topic at hand involves the community in one way or another. Let me put it this way: If a slur was constantly thrown around and you were part of the target community, you wouldn't find it amusing at all, rightfully so. So, I would not ban people that use the word trap, but It is my right to suggest otherwise. Also, there's a large LGBT fandom in anime. Sorry, but they should deal with it. Like I said before, there aren't intend to offend someone. If someone get offended by that, then is his/her problem. Someone can't come out of nowhere and say, "Hey, that's offensive to me, please use other word", looks ridiculous to me. We were in peace until those people are started to say that "trap" is an offensive word and then pages like ANN and AniList started to ban that word. I know that you don't want to ban it but please, understand. I think this is a very shitty and toxic attitude. Black people shouldn't be offended when people use the N-word. Gay people shouldn't be offended when people call them promiscuous and predatory. Trans people shouldn't be offended when people misgender them on purpose or call them a slur that suggests that they are tricking cishets. Being insensitive is your choice, but saying that they are being offended for nothing (because you are the one to decide that) is condescending as fuck and in a way putting yourself and your lack of sensitivity in a safe space. The same as people can't do anything when you use the word "trap", you should deal with their criticism. |
AsukaHellsoldier said: BlackScience said: Sorry, but they should deal with it. Like I said before, there aren't intend to offend someone. If someone get offended by that, then is his/her problem. Someone can't come out of nowhere and say, "Hey, that's offensive to me, please use other word", looks ridiculous to me. We were in peace until those people are started to say that "trap" is an offensive word and then pages like ANN and AniList started to ban that word. I know that you don't want to ban it but please, understand. Look, for me it's pretty simple: I understand first and foremost that many people are simply just used to using the word ''trap''. I get that many who use it are not out there to hurt people. Hell, the word has been part of the Otaku community for eons now. In light of all this, I don't feel it's right to judge everyone who used this word as a transphobe, out there to push trans youth into suicide. And I admit that was my gut reaction. With that said, the word ''retard'' is thrown around easily, specially in forums. And the thing is: I have Asperger's, thus I belong to the Autism Spectrum. And as someone who dealt with all sorts of bullying and insults back at school, simply because I liked to be in a corner of the library, insulting people who haven't harmed others for the sake of it gets under my skin. Now, many people use the word ''retard'' without even thinking much about it. They're not out there to insult mentally/psychologically handicapped people (I have full mental capacity, as you can probably tell). They just use it. They've grown up using it, and they use it, even when they are, perhaps, pretty awesome people to hang around with. It hurts nonetheless. You feel reduced to nothing. I mean, now as an adult, I can handle things a lot better. But I do wonder what would've happened if I didn't remain strong as a kid. Would I even be having this conversation right now? With Trans people, the same happens. With so many foes out there, it's hard to tell friend from foe. ''Trap'', ''tr*nny'', ''he-she'', ''she-he'', ''thing'', ''f*ggot''... You name it, they get called. So it's no surprise that, when even in the comfort of the Internet they feel they are being mocked and insulted, despite having harmed no-one, their reactions are a bit, if you will frail. But it's not that they're oversensitive. It's that being called ''tr*nny'' or ''retard'' does hurt that much. I want to avoid censorship as much as possible. I believe in the most absolute freedom possible. So, knowing that many people don't mean any harm with ''trap'', I'm not going to treat them like they're Adolf Hitler or something. But knowing the damage that a word can inflict on a person that's already down, I ask people to use another word. They may chose not to do so, but at least I ask of them. I believe in Kant's Universality Principle: ''Act and behave according to what you want to see as the norm''. I want respect to be the norm, and I'll do my best to live in accordance to that principle. I also want forgiveness to be the norm, so I don't want to mistreat someone because they, out of habit, used the word ''trap''. I want them to stop using it. I believe it is right to stop using it. But I also believe people can commit, what I consider to be, a mistake. We probably disagree on a lot here. I hope we can just agree to disagree. jal90 said: I think this is a very shitty and toxic attitude. Black people shouldn't be offended when people use the N-word. Gay people shouldn't be offended when people call them promiscuous and predatory. Trans people shouldn't be offended when people misgender them on purpose or call them a slur that suggests that they are tricking cishets. Being insensitive is your choice, but saying that they are being offended for nothing (because you are the one to decide that) is condescending as fuck and in a way putting yourself and your lack of sensitivity in a safe space. The same as people can't do anything when you use the word "trap", you should deal with their criticism. Well, like I said above, many people just use it out of habit, without thinking too much about it. Of course I want that to change. But it will probably take time. Yep, and I actually am not going to actively prevent people from using it. I just think that "conform to my standards and don't get offended/deal with it" is not a particularly brilliant way to tackle this issue. |
raifuresu said: So Lily is a trans girl, that's really nice. And wow, I wasn't expecting this anime to make me cry. This episode sure had a lot of feels. Crossdresser* "Trans" requires undergoing treatment. Dude is just crossdressing. The real question here is, why is Lily wearing girl clothes in the flashback, from BEFORE he chose to appear on TV? No normal kid does this. It's kinda disturbing that by the age of 9-10 (11 when ded) they already act like that, not very believable either. |
 I don't watch as much anime as before... |
Infatuate said: raifuresu said: So Lily is a trans girl, that's really nice. And wow, I wasn't expecting this anime to make me cry. This episode sure had a lot of feels. Crossdresser* "Trans" requires undergoing treatment. . It literally doesn't. It's a mental thing, not physical. |
So if I decide to wear girly clothes tomorrow and say I'm a girl, I become "trans"? hahahahahahahahaha From wikipedia: Transsexual (less commonly transexual[1]) people experience a gender identity that is inconsistent with, or not culturally associated with, their assigned sex, and desire to permanently transition to the gender with which they identify, usually seeking medical assistance (including hormone replacement therapy and other sex reassignment therapies) to help them align their body with their identified sex or gender. Fucking stupid sjws cant stop trying to push their agendas EVERYWHERE. |
I don't watch as much anime as before... |
Infatuate said: So if I decide to wear girly clothes tomorrow and say I'm a girl, I become "trans"? hahahahahahahahaha From wikipedia: Transsexual (less commonly transexual[1]) people experience a gender identity that is inconsistent with, or not culturally associated with, their assigned sex, and desire to permanently transition to the gender with which they identify, usually seeking medical assistance (including hormone replacement therapy and other sex reassignment therapies) to help them align their body with their identified sex or gender. Fucking stupid sjws cant stop trying to push their agendas EVERYWHERE. Yes it's that simple...imagine. There is also "genderfluid" which I'm not gonna discuss. And you obviously lack reading comprehension. That wikipedia text you posted says : "they desire to transition" - which means that you don't need to be completely done, or even begin with your transition in order to call yourself transsexual. It also says that they "usually" seek medical assistance... "usually" not "always". But yeah at least you go around calling other people stupid. Sit. |
Infatuate said: raifuresu said: So Lily is a trans girl, that's really nice. And wow, I wasn't expecting this anime to make me cry. This episode sure had a lot of feels. Crossdresser* "Trans" requires undergoing treatment. Dude is just crossdressing. The real question here is, why is Lily wearing girl clothes in the flashback, from BEFORE he chose to appear on TV? No normal kid does this. It's kinda disturbing that by the age of 9-10 (11 when ded) they already act like that, not very believable either. Sorry, but you're wrong. The only thing being trans requires is the person identifying with the opposite gender they were assigned at birth. Not all trans people undergo treatment for many reasons, healthy reasons or personal reasons. Reducing those people to "crossdressers" just because they're unable to undergo treatment (or choose not to for whatever reason) is very disrespectful so please don't do that in the future. And the likely reason why she was dressing like a girl is because she identifies as such, this is one of the reasons why I, and many other people, see her as a trans girl. |
| I really liked the episode and finding more about Lily. I'd appreciate if people would stop calling her a trap and using he/him pronouns. Lily is a trans girl and uses she/her pronouns. |
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| The world I had with you And the future where I'll be missing you And even if we're now far apart The courage you gave me will be my pride as I go on So please, always, watch over me! Every day, I miss you, I miss you That's the way I feel It won't ever fade but that's okay Because that love, that love Won't ever change, no matter what happens I miss you, I miss you, and if one day, in a dream... We meet again, please tell me the same What a emotional episode. |
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