| If the true message of Eva is something about not doing too much escapism around your own issues, confronts them and enjoys the real world and relationships more why one Earth when Shinji go to the real world he goes ending up with the least realistic and more mary sue like of all the three girls exactly? Makes no sense to me...i feel it could at work if this new character Mary Iscariot was more developped, did more memorable stuff and well was overall more fleshed out in the rebuild movies but as its stands her name is barely memorable so i wouldnt have a problem with Shinji getting with that new girl if she was more someone will know anything about at all that makes her look like a real character but as its stand she only appeared every time they was a plot gap as the deus ex machina solving it and nothing really more so why would it be favored he ends up with her not Rei or Asuka if the real message is supposed to be that he should grow up from fantasizing over past idealized first loves (as much as i get it was supposed to be about)...i could have get over that if he ended up with a new girl character that actually felt more real than the others but as its stands she seems so much just their to be a ideal male wish fullfilling fantasy that even Asuka or Rei looks less so that must be saying somehting. I wouldnt even be against it if it didnt seems to contradict so much the main point seems to be made across but as its stands here its annoys me because i cant make any sense of the end of Evangelion with such a seemingly massive contradiction in the main plot/message (all over again). |
 |
| Because Shinji is Anno's self-insert. The Rebuild series is shit, no need to overthink it or take it seriously. |
| the rebuilts are just a cashgrab, don't try to apply logic |
    |
alotlikecars said: Well yeah i guess Eva wouldnt be Eva anymore if it start making sense. Got you a point on that one. But my problem with her character isnt that she is happy/carefree its just that she had less screen time and fleshing out that Maya so her suddenly has such a big role felt really forced and like a last minute decision in order to make the whole thing relatively make sens in a really "clumsy" writing way or so it seemed to me...its not that i find the overall message bad just i'm little upset that it wasnt very depth. But that being said i guess depth in Eva as always been more in fandom theories and such than the actual stuff showed on screen probably. That being said i respect other opinions but i didnt find the remake that bad even if yeah the first series was notably better there is a lot of good things i think it did a ok job to be understandable (somewhat) for beginners while still pleasing old fans with some nostalgic stuff, has good music, animation, and modern special effects, plus the battles with angels where cool and so the chara design but yeah story wise it was sketchy and the characters seemed well better developped in the original...its not that a dark ambiance is needed for depth just that the psychological exploration that got a lot of people into the serie is way not as depth in rebuild and i wouldnt mind it done with happier characters but as it stands it feel very missing. It makes characters motivations way more obscure. I guess i just must accept the fact that Eva will always be something to be felt not understood like abstract art or something. That being said i disagree with people here calling the rebuild just a cashcow, reading the interview its pretty obvious Anno did put a lot of heart and tought in it. Even if how well transmitted it is at reception is another debate...i may be wrong but from where i stand i feel like lots of what he tried to tell been lost in translation for me.It's because Mari represents that Evangelion pilots actually CAN be happy. Whatever it is that is causing you pain, it may also bring you joy. You don't have to see the interactions you have with people as a source of pain. It simply says that you must alter your perspective, try new things, have fun, and express appreciation and thankfulness for little things. I can't believe that was the problem you had with the ending. Anyway, Evangelion rebuilds aren't loved very much for making sense anyway. Ffor that matter, neither is the original Evangelion series itself. |
|
| As far as I know, Mari was based on Anno's girlfriend or whatever who cared for him while he was so depressed that he couldn't do anything. As for the message, I think they were going for a combination of the original TV ending ("congratulations") and EoE's climatic final battle, and in my eyes it doesn't work at all. It just comes across like Shinji wishing away all bad consequences, resulting in basically a reset or a "it was all a dream" kinda ending. Very cheap, very anti-climactic, very unsatisfying. |
MizunoWaveRider said: Well yeah that more or less what i was getting accross too but i've hoped i getted it wrong. Sadly not so it seems because as you said its very cheap...i was excepting way more bold an ending like if it was for that lets stuck with the otaku community trolling of the first ending at least its did have some audacity and surprise effect. And besides its also was more or less of an happy ending, here its seems okay you didnt want a happy end or a bad end here your cheap bittersweet end but how good or bad it end never really was the issue it was more as how inconclusive it was and someway still is. For all the reasons you said "it was all a dream" stories are hated and usually shown as most of the time token bad writing examples because its way damn too easy and erase the importance of everything happening in it before letting people with a impression of time wasted, i guess that the issue also. As far as I know, Mari was based on Anno's girlfriend or whatever who cared for him while he was so depressed that he couldn't do anything. As for the message, I think they were going for a combination of the original TV ending ("congratulations") and EoE's climatic final battle, and in my eyes it doesn't work at all. It just comes across like Shinji wishing away all bad consequences, resulting in basically a reset or a "it was all a dream" kinda ending. Very cheap, very anti-climactic, very unsatisfying. If she was based on a girl he knew i hope for him she isnt as temperamental as i am because if my husband did pretend to based on me for realism a character that was such a bland blank slate i would be quite angry at him because i would feel insulted. Well seeing where he was going with her all that said i think it could have been a good idea if better executed but as it is its not. |
|
| I would be more surprised if something about 3.0+1.0 doesn't bug you. Good thing you are able to see the truth, the Rebuilds just spit in everything that the original Evangelion represents, so don't try to make sense of those films. |
| Shinji needed a new girl because Rei in the original had no personality and Asuka had a toxic personality. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| Well Rei had a personnality even if yeah she is still discovering the world and herself so i guess that can get across as being a blank slate...but she really never was...she was just as developped as the others main character...and yeah Asuka is a bully and an abuser with how she treat Shinji but at least she felt like she could have been a real person because her development made her believable...my issue is not that he got a new girl its more like we know almost nothing about her. I mean we know even Kaworu more than her...that's kind of saying something as he only got one episode of character development in the original show. In fact at first i was curious about her new character and found her joy and battles enjoyment and kicking ass at it positive...it got me to want to get to know more about her so i guess it could have done Shinji a good first impression and wanted to get around her more when she is friendly with him until then i was into it then...well i understand its an action show but its like she disappear until they get together in the end and we know nothing more of her than she is is new girl and like a...period. I'm like okay...but it feel like wasted potential of the character that could have been way more interesting and end up Marye sue territory...upseting. And all the other stuff story wise others rightfully complained here makes it worse. I guess i just wished her to be more than she was. |
|
| I feel that too except that upseting or not at least its has a "real" end now. |
|
| Well i'm not that much attached to any ship and i dont mind AsukaxAdult Kensuke why not. I'm ok with that part i'm just upset that if Shinji did have character development Mari didnt have any so that make it harder for me to get attach to her and rejoice for Shinji to be with a character that the scenario didnt take the time to flesh enough for me to really care for. Especially as a few hints here and then got us to hope Mari could have been cool if more developped but really...most of her fans didnt really got anything to defend her besides she's beautiful, battles well, happy and makes Shinji happy ending up with him i mean okay but i've expected more character development for her than that and as it is i'm upset that there were none. I'm happy for you if this end feel satisfying in your taste but people llke me and the others here who werent satisfied by the end have also right to their opinion. |
|
Launches said: Well...maybe its ambivalent but as your the first answering here that didnt guess it was i think we could argues its heavily implied to be or seems so too many at the very least.Shinji and Mari relationship is not intended to be romantic |
|
Launches said: Ok. Well to me its seems less weird and more ok if they are just friends that may/may not get together knowing each other better later on but the part of why the character he follows in the actual reality is someone we barely know anything about and the most unrealistic of them all still is weird to me even that way i must confess. What would you have personnaly like better as the end instead? (out of curiosity). I know but many of the staff said that scene wasn’t supposed to be romantic and that Mari is not Anno’s wife. I won’t lie I use this to cope |
|
Launches said: Ok why not...i'm not especially attached to any pairing personnally it was just the fact its seems to really counter Anno's stated view of past that really bugged me as its seemed to me to go opposite of his message (which was basically kind of "otaku should go out more and get a life instead of dreaming their life and losing it to too much escapist fantasy if i got it well and remember it good) so that got me feeling like...wtf...some say Asuka is a bully and therefore shouldnt have Shinji and i can get where their perspective comes from. I can respect that they like healthier relationship and worry that Asuka's dynamic with Shinji would still be abusive if they did end up together seriously but if i forget that a real world implication for pure fantasy yes i can get that their pairing would be fun and at least interesting. Well...some are well made...so for shipping you'll always have fanart/fanvid/fanfics. With all the ship wars it would hardly be wise for Anno to make one of the popular ship canon anyway so i always guessed he wouldnt till now. As for the ending is open ended with a probably far fetched meaning nobody guessed...you might be right in fact...its Eva after all...the joke that it would be 3.0+1.0 = You Will (Not) Understand Anything was definitively here for a reason...i guess we can end it with that conclusion.Sylpheline said: Ok. Well to me its seems less weird and more ok if they are just friends that may/may not get together knowing each other better later on but the part of why the character he follows in the actual reality is someone we barely know anything about and the most unrealistic of them all still is weird to me even that way i must confess. What would you have personnaly like better as the end instead? (out of curiosity). I’m all asuka x shinji but I just would’ve liked if there was someone else there for him in the last scene other than Mari since now people are gonna keep saying that he got with Mari even though the scene wasn’t meant to be romantic. I honestly think Anno had just wanted that last scene to be symbolic about him leaving evangelion behind and not literal at all cause we have no idea where Shinji is going with Mari or the context at all. Evangelion endings have always been left open ended unfortunately. My theory is that him and Mari were still in the anti universe, the people we see on the other side of the train (asuka, kaworu, rei) are just visions, and Shinji and Mari were leaving it to return to the real world where the village is. |
|
Launches said: Yes indeed End of Eva was kind of sad but one of the most logical ends. Well too each their own i'm not big on any pairing i'm a yaoi fangirl so off course if it was me i would love Kawoshin and in some aspects it is not that absurd but i've never dreamed of it ever becaming the main canon couple for obvious reasons since most of the fanbase is straight guys who dont want that off course, so i'm happy with all the fanservice we got there for fushoji it was pretty heavy so its ok the way it is for me, i was always a bit uneasy with Misato/Shinji because even if i like both characters and can understand that guys feel her to have MILF appeal there relationship is so mom/child that it vibes me off as too much pedophilic-like a pairing for my tastes, so if it got to be girls i have said i had nothing against or for Mari in and on herself except for her lack of actual characterization making her too bland for my tastes (know if we gonna go fanfic shipping its might be a bonus for some i mean its make her free to write the way you want like Matt in Death Note she probably have more fanon than canon characteristic so it at least make work the imagination i guess...and yuri fans seems to have been very imaginative with Asuka/Mari at least for the few stuff i've seen...if any good fanfic makes Mari/Shinji works why not then but without fan of the pairing rec it i probably wouldnt be interested enough to seek them myself), know for the eternal question of wether Rei or Asuka...agree that they are both great but indeed your arguments against Shinji choosing Rei seems logical to me, futhermore with the fact she is his mom clone so that as a weird aspect but she's interesting and i've seen some makes it works wonderfully in their fanfics...so i'm ok with that one....and with Asuka besides the issues i told about before yes indeed i do agree with you that if we keep it straight its the best pairing for my personal tastes (but i like tsundere dynamics a tad bit too much so i totally understand why others disagree) and if we dont then...why choose Rei/Asuka yuri could be great (at least visually)...but poor Shinji get trought so much i would found it sad if he ends up alone all over again. Now lets forgot about pairing more than two characters together because well...only people with a very bad fanfic habit (like me) do that so its extremely hard to find therefore too often frustrating anyway. If you wanted to have my personnal takes on the Eva ship that's it now fans of each pairing are very dedicated and could makes any works i guess therefore i'm not very wanting any in peculiar. Sylpheline said: Ok why not...i'm not especially attached to any pairing personnally it was just the fact its seems to really counter Anno's stated view of past that really bugged me as its seemed to me to go opposite of his message (which was basically kind of "otaku should go out more and get a life instead of dreaming their life and losing it to too much escapist fantasy if i got it well and remember it good) so that got me feeling like...wtf...some say Asuka is a bully and therefore shouldnt have Shinji and i can get where their perspective comes from. I can respect that they like healthier relationship and worry that Asuka's dynamic with Shinji would still be abusive if they did end up together seriously but if i forget that a real world implication for pure fantasy yes i can get that their pairing would be fun and at least interesting. Well...some are well made...so for shipping you'll always have fanart/fanvid/fanfics. With all the ship wars it would hardly be wise for Anno to make one of the popular ship canon anyway so i always guessed he wouldnt till now. As for the ending is open ended with a probably far fetched meaning nobody guessed...you might be right in fact...its Eva after all...the joke that it would be 3.0+1.0 = You Will (Not) Understand Anything was definitively here for a reason...i guess we can end it with that conclusion. I love how 3.0 + 1.0 was more confusing to me than end of eva (eoe is my favorite movie of all time). Anyways I like asuka x shinji more than any other for shinji in the show because how many times is a random girl with big boobs gonna appear out of the sky like that or how many times is a guy that looks like a angel that makes me wanna be gay appear out of nowhere and love you unconditionally. And Rei represents escapism in the show while Asuka represented human connection and the struggles of a realistic romantic relationship/interest |
SylphelineJul 9, 2023 1:25 PM
|
Sylpheline said: I would offer you this perspective. Firstly, Hideaki Anno's calling card is giving the audience just enough to point them in a direction that may indicate his personal relation/idea of things but giving us enough slack to interpret things in our own way. He's always stylistically trusted the viewers' intelligence/ability to interpret and NOT spoon-feed us. Just keep that in mind. Also, it helps to try and bear in mind that Anno intended connectivity between the original NGE+EoE and the Rebuilds (not at first obviously but by the time he got the Rebuilds) both literally and figuratively. So it helps your understanding to understand that there's ESSENTIAL connective tissue between the original and the Rebuilds. if you completely partition the two from each other when examining them there's a metric ton that gets lost.If the true message of Eva is something about not doing too much escapism around your own issues, confronts them and enjoys the real world and relationships more why one Earth when Shinji go to the real world he goes ending up with the least realistic and more mary sue like of all the three girls exactly? Makes no sense to me...i feel it could at work if this new character Mary Iscariot was more developped, did more memorable stuff and well was overall more fleshed out in the rebuild movies but as its stands her name is barely memorable so i wouldnt have a problem with Shinji getting with that new girl if she was more someone will know anything about at all that makes her look like a real character but as its stand she only appeared every time they was a plot gap as the deus ex machina solving it and nothing really more so why would it be favored he ends up with her not Rei or Asuka if the real message is supposed to be that he should grow up from fantasizing over past idealized first loves (as much as i get it was supposed to be about)...i could have get over that if he ended up with a new girl character that actually felt more real than the others but as its stands she seems so much just their to be a ideal male wish fullfilling fantasy that even Asuka or Rei looks less so that must be saying somehting. I wouldnt even be against it if it didnt seems to contradict so much the main point seems to be made across but as its stands here its annoys me because i cant make any sense of the end of Evangelion with such a seemingly massive contradiction in the main plot/message (all over again). I would ask you to consider the following. That Mari is deliberately mysterious and not much is examined about her outside of what we see. Her last name at one point is revealed to be/referred to as "Iscariot". As in the the last name of Judas from the Bible. The traitor to Jesus Christ. So the inference seems to be that Mari is a traitor no? To what? Well consider that out of the entire cast of characters she feels so very out of place. Why? Because her very character by not being a deep dissection like everyone else, by finding all these reasons to be happy go lucky regardless of the situation (in particular she thinks but not so hard about things that she gets lost about it, she takes things and stride and chooses to accept happiness in her demeanor anyway) is a completely anomaly in NGE let alone. She is in fact written as a traitor to the identity of Neon Genesis Evangelion as a story. Like thematically and it's done on purpose. That's why her namesake is Judas from the Bible. She is the opposite of the other characters are and have represented up to that point. She's written as the opposite of the dark "Gendo cynicism" (I'll get to this in a moment). NGE, especially the masterful original NGE is known for this deep cynicism and deconstruction. I like to say it's so very much about "going down the rabbit hole and seeing how far down it goes". It's a deep dive in the truest sense on a lot of levels and I think a lot of us would agree. It's dark, very dark. Every character has deep personal tribulations that they must face and overcome or accept. Everyone major character on the cast has that kind of journey. In some ways when you streamline it, it's a cast of troubled individuals ready to look for answers for the rest of their lives if it is meant to be so. Everyone except Mari. Now, I would point out what Anno starts to suggest his message is in the Rebuilds. The entire end fight betwee Gendo and Shinji's Eva's is loaded with themes of duality. I think they literally say that Gendo represents despair and Shinji represents hope in the dialogue. Don't sleep on this as it's not a throwaway idea. Look at it this way. Gendo here represents the dark cynicism of the original NGE and Anno's mental state around that time in the 90's. The despair and the absolute need to search for answers on how to achieve happiness the "right way" by endlessly dissecting and diving in the proverbial rabbit hole. Getting lost in the sauce. Shinji represents not just the ability to let go of this fixation but this idea that "Soul searching and deep diving is a necessary part of the growth process but at some point, you have to let go of your endless fixations and come out of the hole to grasp happiness as its right next to you/within your reach (I won't expand on it rn as I'm already typing a lot but the part of the film to focus on with this is the village section. It's not just eye candy, it's both Shinji's turning point and the turning point that the Rebuilds had been building towards). Because ultimately whether someone deems it "the right way" or "wrong way" we all seek peace and happiness. If you get lost in the sauce, mulling things over forever you fail to realize the happiness that's there for you right around the corner" (this is really poetically and brilliantly mirrored when Gendo realizes after all this time he's had his wife by his side all this time in the form of his son...it makes the viewer question or perhaps realize that by the time we meet Gendo in the story this chasing Instrumentality, his deep cynicisms on Instrumentality and doing everything the way the Dead Sea Scrolls foretold, this way of bringing his wife back in some capacity was more of a way for him to cope with the loss of his wife. At some point thinking back it makes you ask "Did he even really even aspire to this idea or was the CHASING of the idea what let him hide his pain") So by the end of the film you can start to see Gendo as Anno's ideals circa NGE and Shinji as Anno's current ideals after he's found happiness irl, met his wife later in life, etc. This is further aesthetically driven home by unit 13 and 01 looking so similar. They're two halves of a whole, two sides of a coin just as the original NGE and the Rebuilds are. A clashing of ideals. And Anno's final message is perhaps what I mentioned earlier: Do a little deep diving but don't lose your way in the rabbit hole forever. Come up out of it and grasp the happiness you deserve. This is why end scene at the train station is purposefully symbolic. In the original NGE in particular the train was the place where Shinji engaged in all of his deepest psychological dissections and dives that at the time he perhaps needed. At the VERY end of the entire Neon Genesis Evangelion story Shinji runs up the steps and out of the train station. He doesn't need the train anymore. This is the last stop. He's right here he needs to be. The final message is about growing up and growing out as Anno has in real lie. The entirety of NGE and the Rebuilds aren't just a great story but also a personal poem and expression of Hideaki Anno's journey and out of depression. I like to think that at the end of the original NGE and EoE Shinji winds up a litte more like his father. In the Rebuilds (and I know this may be polarizing as people have different opinions on Yui) he winds up more like/adopting a philosophy closer to something of his mother's. Again, there's a ton of duality penned into this. SO. With all that being said Mari as even just a device on paper is inextricably linked to this idea Anno purports through the narrative of Thrice Upon a Time if not the Rebuilds themselves as being a traitor to rabbit hole. A traitor to the cynicism. A traitor to the over fixation on things. Mari represents not just Anno's wife seeing as how Shinji is a stand in for Anno but also this notion of letting go and creating/having happiness even if its simple. There's a looming message with her being tied to Shinji of "allowing yourself happiness" if that makes any sense. To further sort of drive this home I would just like to try and offer a perspective that kind of debunks the "Oh Shinji got rid of the Eva's/hit the reset button. HE'S RUNNING FROM HIS PROBLEMS.". Do ya'll remember the "alternate universe" episodes towards the end of the original NGE? How Shinji was shown a universe where he wasn't an Eva pilot and you could just see his brain short-circuit like he couldn't even conceive of the idea? I'm not saying Anno planned this to tie in with the Rebuild's in the 90s but it does tie in seamlessly regardless imo. Consider this. The Evangelions and Nerv have been the source of not just everyone's problems but alternatively have been the source of everyone's ESCAPISM. Gendo metaphorically runs from Shinji/the loss of his wife and gets lost in his work or search for answers. ONE of several ways this applies to Misato is that she resents her father for neglecting her for his work with early Nerv but is then angered over her confusion/inability to understand her father's love/why he gave his life for her. This is at least partly why she feels so responsible for Shinji and the other teen pilots and has this strong desire to be a mother to them, to create a home and family. It's at least partly a way for her to validate to herself that she's not her father (a different point entirely but by the end when shes about to give her life to her biological son in Ryoji and her adoptive son in Shinji, against all odds and everything she despised, she finally becomes and understands her father). Ritsuko is burdened with being the daughter of her mother, the creator of the Magi. Remember how Ritsuko's mom chose Gendo over her own daughter (via the Magi) towards the end of NGE? This drives home a point. That Ritsuko was not only not as a brilliant of a scientist as her mother, but she felt this need to live up to her mother's legacy and part of her was ultimately a daughter not only looking to succeed her mother but looking for love. To the point where she gets with Gendo just like her mother did. All of this Stems from Nerv/The Eva's and there are a lot of other strings to pull at with these and the other characters. But like as you can hopefully see, the Eva's were the source of escapism and running from the deeper personal problems (kind of highlighted when everyone loses their marbles when they're all forced to look at their issues directly in the face at the end of the original NGE without anything to pull their attentions away from it). Conclusively, in a way, it made a lot of sense for Shinji to wind up with Mari if you subscribe to the idea that NGE in its entirety is a meta narrative or Anno's journey (I would concede that this makes more sense symbolically and in terms of the meta representation versus the straightforward story but imo it's still not outlandish and I'm sure could be supported in that regard if we sat down and thought about it more imo). She's a traitor and a rejection. But if characters like Rei and Asuka spent their journey's indicative of the NGE identity mentioned earlier and were reflective of that idea, Mari, Mary Iscariot is written as a stark reminder that it's okay to be happy, soul search but don't let semantics gatekeep you from being happy. Come up for air at some point. At some point you must get off the train, walk up out of the station and into the world. You're ready to be happy. If Anno got there. Shinji spent time on the train, learned some things, grew up, grew out. But at some point both in and out of the diegesis we realize as much as Shinji that, that whole thing was something that had become crutch for him like everyone else. He's grown up and out of that. Again, this is his last stop. He didn't find every answer perhaps but he learned what he *needed*. He gets off the train. He chose happiness. So can we. I think Rei or Asuka would've been the fanservicey pick to pair with Shinji in the end but I stand by my opinion that Anno made the right choice with Mari. It's almost entirely and deliberately not the point that he gives us only so much of her. It's on purpose. Rei is more representative of Yui/Shinji's mother and a little bit of the Oedipus complex at play and I thought what they really clearly highlighted in The End of Evangelion (the bits right before Shinji starts choking Asuka iirc) is that the two of them never would have worked as a young couple. They're two broken people trying to put each other together. It just wasn't meant to be and by the end of the whole journey it becomes really clear that both Shinji and Asuka very muh needed to go on their individual journeys to learn what they needed, to grow how they needed, to find their own peace. The revisiting of the EoE beach scene in Thrice is in part Shinji's own admission of his feelings for Asuka but the fact also a musing that he needed to walk the path that he did the way he did in order to reach the peace and happiness he had achieved at that point. Remember, this whole thing in a lot of ways has been Anno's story and a means of his personal expression. We've just been along for the ride. EDIT: I realize this is a lot of analysis but Anno's work as we all know can be as complex and meta as it gets lol. Also disclaimer, this is just my opinion/interpretation. |
Champloo_RemixAug 14, 2023 8:15 PM
Champloo_Remix said: Sylpheline said: I would offer you this perspective. Firstly, Hideaki Anno's calling card is giving the audience just enough to point them in a direction that may indicate his personal relation/idea of things but giving us enough slack to interpret things in our own way. He's always stylistically trusted the viewers' intelligence/ability to interpret and NOT spoon-feed us. Just keep that in mind. Also, it helps to try and bear in mind that Anno intended connectivity between the original NGE+EoE and the Rebuilds (not at first obviously but by the time he got the Rebuilds) both literally and figuratively. So it helps your understanding to understand that there's ESSENTIAL connective tissue between the original and the Rebuilds. if you completely partition the two from each other when examining them there's a metric ton that gets lost.If the true message of Eva is something about not doing too much escapism around your own issues, confronts them and enjoys the real world and relationships more why one Earth when Shinji go to the real world he goes ending up with the least realistic and more mary sue like of all the three girls exactly? Makes no sense to me...i feel it could at work if this new character Mary Iscariot was more developped, did more memorable stuff and well was overall more fleshed out in the rebuild movies but as its stands her name is barely memorable so i wouldnt have a problem with Shinji getting with that new girl if she was more someone will know anything about at all that makes her look like a real character but as its stand she only appeared every time they was a plot gap as the deus ex machina solving it and nothing really more so why would it be favored he ends up with her not Rei or Asuka if the real message is supposed to be that he should grow up from fantasizing over past idealized first loves (as much as i get it was supposed to be about)...i could have get over that if he ended up with a new girl character that actually felt more real than the others but as its stands she seems so much just their to be a ideal male wish fullfilling fantasy that even Asuka or Rei looks less so that must be saying somehting. I wouldnt even be against it if it didnt seems to contradict so much the main point seems to be made across but as its stands here its annoys me because i cant make any sense of the end of Evangelion with such a seemingly massive contradiction in the main plot/message (all over again). I would ask you to consider the following. That Mari is deliberately mysterious and not much is examined about her outside of what we see. Her last name at one point is revealed to be/referred to as "Iscariot". As in the the last name of Judas from the Bible. The traitor to Jesus Christ. So the inference seems to be that Mari is a traitor no? To what? Well consider that out of the entire cast of characters she feels so very out of place. Why? Because her very character by not being a deep dissection like everyone else, by finding all these reasons to be happy go lucky regardless of the situation (in particular she thinks but not so hard about things that she gets lost about it, she takes things and stride and chooses to accept happiness in her demeanor anyway) is a completely anomaly in NGE let alone. She is in fact written as a traitor to the identity of Neon Genesis Evangelion as a story. Like thematically and it's done on purpose. That's why her namesake is Judas from the Bible. She is the opposite of the other characters are and have represented up to that point. She's written as the opposite of the dark "Gendo cynicism" (I'll get to this in a moment). NGE, especially the masterful original NGE is known for this deep cynicism and deconstruction. I like to say it's so very much about "going down the rabbit hole and seeing how far down it goes". It's a deep dive in the truest sense on a lot of levels and I think a lot of us would agree. It's dark, very dark. Every character has deep personal tribulations that they must face and overcome or accept. Everyone major character on the cast has that kind of journey. In some ways when you streamline it, it's a cast of troubled individuals ready to look for answers for the rest of their lives if it is meant to be so. Everyone except Mari. Now, I would point out what Anno starts to suggest his message is in the Rebuilds. The entire end fight betwee Gendo and Shinji's Eva's is loaded with themes of duality. I think they literally say that Gendo represents despair and Shinji represents hope in the dialogue. Don't sleep on this as it's not a throwaway idea. Look at it this way. Gendo here represents the dark cynicism of the original NGE and Anno's mental state around that time in the 90's. The despair and the absolute need to search for answers on how to achieve happiness the "right way" by endlessly dissecting and diving in the proverbial rabbit hole. Getting lost in the sauce. Shinji represents not just the ability to let go of this fixation but this idea that "Soul searching and deep diving is a necessary part of the growth process but at some point, you have to let go of your endless fixations and come out of the hole to grasp happiness as its right next to you/within your reach (I won't expand on it rn as I'm already typing a lot but the part of the film to focus on with this is the village section. It's not just eye candy, it's both Shinji's turning point and the turning point that the Rebuilds had been building towards). Because ultimately whether someone deems it "the right way" or "wrong way" we all seek peace and happiness. If you get lost in the sauce, mulling things over forever you fail to realize the happiness that's there for you right around the corner" (this is really poetically and brilliantly mirrored when Gendo realizes after all this time he's had his wife by his side all this time in the form of his son...it makes the viewer question or perhaps realize that by the time we meet Gendo in the story this chasing Instrumentality, his deep cynicisms on Instrumentality and doing everything the way the Dead Sea Scrolls foretold, this way of bringing his wife back in some capacity was more of a way for him to cope with the loss of his wife. At some point thinking back it makes you ask "Did he even really even aspire to this idea or was the CHASING of the idea what let him hide his pain") So by the end of the film you can start to see Gendo as Anno's ideals circa NGE and Shinji as Anno's current ideals after he's found happiness irl, met his wife later in life, etc. This is further aesthetically driven home by unit 13 and 01 looking so similar. They're two halves of a whole, two sides of a coin just as the original NGE and the Rebuilds are. A clashing of ideals. And Anno's final message is perhaps what I mentioned earlier: Do a little deep diving but don't lose your way in the rabbit hole forever. Come up out of it and grasp the happiness you deserve. This is why end scene at the train station is purposefully symbolic. In the original NGE in particular the train was the place where Shinji engaged in all of his deepest psychological dissections and dives that at the time he perhaps needed. At the VERY end of the entire Neon Genesis Evangelion story Shinji runs up the steps and out of the train station. He doesn't need the train anymore. This is the last stop. He's right here he needs to be. The final message is about growing up and growing out as Anno has in real lie. The entirety of NGE and the Rebuilds aren't just a great story but also a personal poem and expression of Hideaki Anno's journey and out of depression. I like to think that at the end of the original NGE and EoE Shinji winds up a litte more like his father. In the Rebuilds (and I know this may be polarizing as people have different opinions on Yui) he winds up more like/adopting a philosophy closer to something of his mother's. Again, there's a ton of duality penned into this. SO. With all that being said Mari as even just a device on paper is inextricably linked to this idea Anno purports through the narrative of Thrice Upon a Time if not the Rebuilds themselves as being a traitor to rabbit hole. A traitor to the cynicism. A traitor to the over fixation on things. Mari represents not just Anno's wife seeing as how Shinji is a stand in for Anno but also this notion of letting go and creating/having happiness even if its simple. There's a looming message with her being tied to Shinji of "allowing yourself happiness" if that makes any sense. To further sort of drive this home I would just like to try and offer a perspective that kind of debunks the "Oh Shinji got rid of the Eva's/hit the reset button. HE'S RUNNING FROM HIS PROBLEMS.". Do ya'll remember the "alternate universe" episodes towards the end of the original NGE? How Shinji was shown a universe where he wasn't an Eva pilot and you could just see his brain short-circuit like he couldn't even conceive of the idea? I'm not saying Anno planned this to tie in with the Rebuild's in the 90s but it does tie in seamlessly regardless imo. Consider this. The Evangelions and Nerv have been the source of not just everyone's problems but alternatively have been the source of everyone's ESCAPISM. Gendo metaphorically runs from Shinji/the loss of his wife and gets lost in his work or search for answers. ONE of several ways this applies to Misato is that she resents her father for neglecting her for his work with early Nerv but is then angered over her confusion/inability to understand her father's love/why he gave his life for her. This is at least partly why she feels so responsible for Shinji and the other teen pilots and has this strong desire to be a mother to them, to create a home and family. It's at least partly a way for her to validate to herself that she's not her father (a different point entirely but by the end when shes about to give her life to her biological son in Ryoji and her adoptive son in Shinji, against all odds and everything she despised, she finally becomes and understands her father). Ritsuko is burdened with being the daughter of her mother, the creator of the Magi. Remember how Ritsuko's mom chose Gendo over her own daughter (via the Magi) towards the end of NGE? This drives home a point. That Ritsuko was not only not as a brilliant of a scientist as her mother, but she felt this need to live up to her mother's legacy and part of her was ultimately a daughter not only looking to succeed her mother but looking for love. To the point where she gets with Gendo just like her mother did. All of this Stems from Nerv/The Eva's and there are a lot of other strings to pull at with these and the other characters. But like as you can hopefully see, the Eva's were the source of escapism and running from the deeper personal problems (kind of highlighted when everyone loses their marbles when they're all forced to look at their issues directly in the face at the end of the original NGE without anything to pull their attentions away from it). Conclusively, in a way, it made a lot of sense for Shinji to wind up with Mari if you subscribe to the idea that NGE in its entirety is a meta narrative or Anno's journey (I would concede that this makes more sense symbolically and in terms of the meta representation versus the straightforward story but imo it's still not outlandish and I'm sure could be supported in that regard if we sat down and thought about it more imo). She's a traitor and a rejection. But if characters like Rei and Asuka spent their journey's indicative of the NGE identity mentioned earlier and were reflective of that idea, Mari, Mary Iscariot is written as a stark reminder that it's okay to be happy, soul search but don't let semantics gatekeep you from being happy. Come up for air at some point. At some point you must get off the train, walk up out of the station and into the world. You're ready to be happy. If Anno got there. Shinji spent time on the train, learned some things, grew up, grew out. But at some point both in and out of the diegesis we realize as much as Shinji that, that whole thing was something that had become crutch for him like everyone else. He's grown up and out of that. Again, this is his last stop. He didn't find every answer perhaps but he learned what he *needed*. He gets off the train. He chose happiness. So can we. I think Rei or Asuka would've been the fanservicey pick to pair with Shinji in the end but I stand by my opinion that Anno made the right choice with Mari. It's almost entirely and deliberately not the point that he gives us only so much of her. It's on purpose. Rei is more representative of Yui/Shinji's mother and a little bit of the Oedipus complex at play and I thought what they really clearly highlighted in The End of Evangelion (the bits right before Shinji starts choking Asuka iirc) is that the two of them never would have worked as a young couple. They're two broken people trying to put each other together. It just wasn't meant to be and by the end of the whole journey it becomes really clear that both Shinji and Asuka very muh needed to go on their individual journeys to learn what they needed, to grow how they needed, to find their own peace. The revisiting of the EoE beach scene in Thrice is in part Shinji's own admission of his feelings for Asuka but the fact also a musing that he needed to walk the path that he did the way he did in order to reach the peace and happiness he had achieved at that point. Remember, this whole thing in a lot of ways has been Anno's story and a means of his personal expression. We've just been along for the ride. EDIT: I realize this is a lot of analysis but Anno's work as we all know can be as complex and meta as it gets lol. Also disclaimer, this is just my opinion/interpretation. As an other commentator said apparently Anno's gone out of his way to correct the common mistake of interpretation that Mari represents his wife but besides that your reasoning is interessing. Viewed that way i could accept Mari indeed. I guess i was just annoyed that a cool designed character with a at first intriguing personnality was given almost no background kept mysterious but yeah if we see it in a "because feel it up with your imagination, Anno is not the kind of director who provides everything to the fans, they have to come up with some stuff like that themselves if they want"...it can make sense. |
|
Najdv2 said: I'm sorry? What part of what I said was baseless? Absolutely none of it opposes your stance that Mari is *literally* a stand in for Anno's wife which I agree with and is obvious fact as far as anyone is concerned. I thought that was obvious. None of what I said discounts that at all. My point was fleshing out why she's written the way she is and why it's deliberate? Not that she isn't Anno's wife but why ShinjixMari might make sense from the perspective of the writer's pen. Which part of what I said seemed like nonsense? I'm genuinely interested why you take it to that extreme and don't explain your statement and dismiss what I said. I thought I supported or tried to support what I was saying with examples and bits from the source material. Please support your stance that all of what I said was nonsense.Champloo_Remix said: It's good that you wrote this, because I haven't read so much nonsense in one message for a long time. But at least I had a good laugh. A funny fan fantasy that has little in common with reality.I realize this is a lot of analysis but Anno's work as we all know can be as complex and meta as it gets lol. Also disclaimer, this is just my opinion/interpretation. https://www.crunchyroll.com/news/latest/2022/3/9/evangelion-creator-hideaki-anno-confirms-mari-wasnt-based-on-his-wife "We have seen various articles, videos, etc. that claim Mari was modeled after Anno's wife, but this merely only the assumption and speculation of a handful of people. At the time of production, this would have been impossible. Mari's personality (as well as Asuka and others) was created by director Tsurumaki's hand [rather than Anno]. It's a bit of fun for the audience to interpret characters and storylines as they wish, and [Evangelion 3.0 + 1.0] is a playground of intellectual fan speculation. That being said, it is sad to see the staff and their families disparaged by baseless assumptions, so we will clearly deny that this is the case." Just another confirmation of how far fans can go with their weird fantasies that only exist in their heads. |
Champloo_RemixAug 15, 2023 4:32 AM
Sylpheline said: I'm glad you got something out of it dude. I mean if you think about it, how much of NGE does Anno ever give us straightforward answers for? Like I said, trusting his viewers to understand and interpret is an Anno calling card imo at least when it comes to Eva. Has been since the very beginning. It's why people still analyize and discuss this story decades after the original run even aired and there's still a ton of back and forth between fans. He gives you straight answers for some things but some things he just doesn't and that's intentional.Champloo_Remix said: I would offer you this perspective. Firstly, Hideaki Anno's calling card is giving the audience just enough to point them in a direction that may indicate his personal relation/idea of things but giving us enough slack to interpret things in our own way. He's always stylistically trusted the viewers' intelligence/ability to interpret and NOT spoon-feed us. Just keep that in mind. Also, it helps to try and bear in mind that Anno intended connectivity between the original NGE+EoE and the Rebuilds (not at first obviously but by the time he got the Rebuilds) both literally and figuratively. So it helps your understanding to understand that there's ESSENTIAL connective tissue between the original and the Rebuilds. if you completely partition the two from each other when examining them there's a metric ton that gets lost. I would ask you to consider the following. That Mari is deliberately mysterious and not much is examined about her outside of what we see. Her last name at one point is revealed to be/referred to as "Iscariot". As in the the last name of Judas from the Bible. The traitor to Jesus Christ. So the inference seems to be that Mari is a traitor no? To what? Well consider that out of the entire cast of characters she feels so very out of place. Why? Because her very character by not being a deep dissection like everyone else, by finding all these reasons to be happy go lucky regardless of the situation (in particular she thinks but not so hard about things that she gets lost about it, she takes things and stride and chooses to accept happiness in her demeanor anyway) is a completely anomaly in NGE let alone. She is in fact written as a traitor to the identity of Neon Genesis Evangelion as a story. Like thematically and it's done on purpose. That's why her namesake is Judas from the Bible. She is the opposite of the other characters are and have represented up to that point. She's written as the opposite of the dark "Gendo cynicism" (I'll get to this in a moment). NGE, especially the masterful original NGE is known for this deep cynicism and deconstruction. I like to say it's so very much about "going down the rabbit hole and seeing how far down it goes". It's a deep dive in the truest sense on a lot of levels and I think a lot of us would agree. It's dark, very dark. Every character has deep personal tribulations that they must face and overcome or accept. Everyone major character on the cast has that kind of journey. In some ways when you streamline it, it's a cast of troubled individuals ready to look for answers for the rest of their lives if it is meant to be so. Everyone except Mari. Now, I would point out what Anno starts to suggest his message is in the Rebuilds. The entire end fight betwee Gendo and Shinji's Eva's is loaded with themes of duality. I think they literally say that Gendo represents despair and Shinji represents hope in the dialogue. Don't sleep on this as it's not a throwaway idea. Look at it this way. Gendo here represents the dark cynicism of the original NGE and Anno's mental state around that time in the 90's. The despair and the absolute need to search for answers on how to achieve happiness the "right way" by endlessly dissecting and diving in the proverbial rabbit hole. Getting lost in the sauce. Shinji represents not just the ability to let go of this fixation but this idea that "Soul searching and deep diving is a necessary part of the growth process but at some point, you have to let go of your endless fixations and come out of the hole to grasp happiness as its right next to you/within your reach (I won't expand on it rn as I'm already typing a lot but the part of the film to focus on with this is the village section. It's not just eye candy, it's both Shinji's turning point and the turning point that the Rebuilds had been building towards). Because ultimately whether someone deems it "the right way" or "wrong way" we all seek peace and happiness. If you get lost in the sauce, mulling things over forever you fail to realize the happiness that's there for you right around the corner" (this is really poetically and brilliantly mirrored when Gendo realizes after all this time he's had his wife by his side all this time in the form of his son...it makes the viewer question or perhaps realize that by the time we meet Gendo in the story this chasing Instrumentality, his deep cynicisms on Instrumentality and doing everything the way the Dead Sea Scrolls foretold, this way of bringing his wife back in some capacity was more of a way for him to cope with the loss of his wife. At some point thinking back it makes you ask "Did he even really even aspire to this idea or was the CHASING of the idea what let him hide his pain") So by the end of the film you can start to see Gendo as Anno's ideals circa NGE and Shinji as Anno's current ideals after he's found happiness irl, met his wife later in life, etc. This is further aesthetically driven home by unit 13 and 01 looking so similar. They're two halves of a whole, two sides of a coin just as the original NGE and the Rebuilds are. A clashing of ideals. And Anno's final message is perhaps what I mentioned earlier: Do a little deep diving but don't lose your way in the rabbit hole forever. Come up out of it and grasp the happiness you deserve. This is why end scene at the train station is purposefully symbolic. In the original NGE in particular the train was the place where Shinji engaged in all of his deepest psychological dissections and dives that at the time he perhaps needed. At the VERY end of the entire Neon Genesis Evangelion story Shinji runs up the steps and out of the train station. He doesn't need the train anymore. This is the last stop. He's right here he needs to be. The final message is about growing up and growing out as Anno has in real lie. The entirety of NGE and the Rebuilds aren't just a great story but also a personal poem and expression of Hideaki Anno's journey and out of depression. I like to think that at the end of the original NGE and EoE Shinji winds up a litte more like his father. In the Rebuilds (and I know this may be polarizing as people have different opinions on Yui) he winds up more like/adopting a philosophy closer to something of his mother's. Again, there's a ton of duality penned into this. SO. With all that being said Mari as even just a device on paper is inextricably linked to this idea Anno purports through the narrative of Thrice Upon a Time if not the Rebuilds themselves as being a traitor to rabbit hole. A traitor to the cynicism. A traitor to the over fixation on things. Mari represents not just Anno's wife seeing as how Shinji is a stand in for Anno but also this notion of letting go and creating/having happiness even if its simple. There's a looming message with her being tied to Shinji of "allowing yourself happiness" if that makes any sense. To further sort of drive this home I would just like to try and offer a perspective that kind of debunks the "Oh Shinji got rid of the Eva's/hit the reset button. HE'S RUNNING FROM HIS PROBLEMS.". Do ya'll remember the "alternate universe" episodes towards the end of the original NGE? How Shinji was shown a universe where he wasn't an Eva pilot and you could just see his brain short-circuit like he couldn't even conceive of the idea? I'm not saying Anno planned this to tie in with the Rebuild's in the 90s but it does tie in seamlessly regardless imo. Consider this. The Evangelions and Nerv have been the source of not just everyone's problems but alternatively have been the source of everyone's ESCAPISM. Gendo metaphorically runs from Shinji/the loss of his wife and gets lost in his work or search for answers. ONE of several ways this applies to Misato is that she resents her father for neglecting her for his work with early Nerv but is then angered over her confusion/inability to understand her father's love/why he gave his life for her. This is at least partly why she feels so responsible for Shinji and the other teen pilots and has this strong desire to be a mother to them, to create a home and family. It's at least partly a way for her to validate to herself that she's not her father (a different point entirely but by the end when shes about to give her life to her biological son in Ryoji and her adoptive son in Shinji, against all odds and everything she despised, she finally becomes and understands her father). Ritsuko is burdened with being the daughter of her mother, the creator of the Magi. Remember how Ritsuko's mom chose Gendo over her own daughter (via the Magi) towards the end of NGE? This drives home a point. That Ritsuko was not only not as a brilliant of a scientist as her mother, but she felt this need to live up to her mother's legacy and part of her was ultimately a daughter not only looking to succeed her mother but looking for love. To the point where she gets with Gendo just like her mother did. All of this Stems from Nerv/The Eva's and there are a lot of other strings to pull at with these and the other characters. But like as you can hopefully see, the Eva's were the source of escapism and running from the deeper personal problems (kind of highlighted when everyone loses their marbles when they're all forced to look at their issues directly in the face at the end of the original NGE without anything to pull their attentions away from it). Conclusively, in a way, it made a lot of sense for Shinji to wind up with Mari if you subscribe to the idea that NGE in its entirety is a meta narrative or Anno's journey (I would concede that this makes more sense symbolically and in terms of the meta representation versus the straightforward story but imo it's still not outlandish and I'm sure could be supported in that regard if we sat down and thought about it more imo). She's a traitor and a rejection. But if characters like Rei and Asuka spent their journey's indicative of the NGE identity mentioned earlier and were reflective of that idea, Mari, Mary Iscariot is written as a stark reminder that it's okay to be happy, soul search but don't let semantics gatekeep you from being happy. Come up for air at some point. At some point you must get off the train, walk up out of the station and into the world. You're ready to be happy. If Anno got there. Shinji spent time on the train, learned some things, grew up, grew out. But at some point both in and out of the diegesis we realize as much as Shinji that, that whole thing was something that had become crutch for him like everyone else. He's grown up and out of that. Again, this is his last stop. He didn't find every answer perhaps but he learned what he *needed*. He gets off the train. He chose happiness. So can we. I think Rei or Asuka would've been the fanservicey pick to pair with Shinji in the end but I stand by my opinion that Anno made the right choice with Mari. It's almost entirely and deliberately not the point that he gives us only so much of her. It's on purpose. Rei is more representative of Yui/Shinji's mother and a little bit of the Oedipus complex at play and I thought what they really clearly highlighted in The End of Evangelion (the bits right before Shinji starts choking Asuka iirc) is that the two of them never would have worked as a young couple. They're two broken people trying to put each other together. It just wasn't meant to be and by the end of the whole journey it becomes really clear that both Shinji and Asuka very muh needed to go on their individual journeys to learn what they needed, to grow how they needed, to find their own peace. The revisiting of the EoE beach scene in Thrice is in part Shinji's own admission of his feelings for Asuka but the fact also a musing that he needed to walk the path that he did the way he did in order to reach the peace and happiness he had achieved at that point. Remember, this whole thing in a lot of ways has been Anno's story and a means of his personal expression. We've just been along for the ride. EDIT: I realize this is a lot of analysis but Anno's work as we all know can be as complex and meta as it gets lol. Also disclaimer, this is just my opinion/interpretation. As an other commentator said apparently Anno's gone out of his way to correct the common mistake of interpretation that Mari represents his wife but besides that your reasoning is interessing. Viewed that way i could accept Mari indeed. I guess i was just annoyed that a cool designed character with a at first intriguing personnality was given almost no background kept mysterious but yeah if we see it in a "because feel it up with your imagination, Anno is not the kind of director who provides everything to the fans, they have to come up with some stuff like that themselves if they want"...it can make sense. |
Najdv2 said: Mari being a stand in for Anno's wife isn't incredibly important at all. That's not even remotely the point that I am making first off. I don't understand the point that *you're* trying to make.Champloo_Remix said: This is one example of the fact that the director looked at the characters of the story differently than it was interpreted by all sorts of talkers, etc. Therefore, when I see all these Anno understanders, it becomes terribly ridiculous and stupid. It was these people who told that Mari was Anno's wife. And they also thought that they understood Anno, that they figured out what kind of meaning he put into this or that scene of the film, etc. But in fact, these are nothing more than fantasies / desires of the fans, which are basically not confirmed in any way by the events of the story or the comments of the directors and scriptwriters. Even Anno himself spoke out on this topic in the same interview that I quoted above.Absolutely none of it opposes your stance that Mari is *literally* a stand in for Anno's wife which I agree with and is obvious fact as far as anyone is concerned. I thought that was obvious. None of what I said discounts that at all. My point was fleshing out why she's written the way she is and why it's deliberate? Q: What do you think of this person, who is not a staff but claims “this should be the correct interpretation”? A: Annoying, I think. Too true. How is what you quoted, me saying "Both of our opinions not only fit but work together" proof of...well...whatever your point is? What you've pointed out in this post is that something that Anno has gone on record to state is that fans try to attach on concrete meaning like there is only ONE way to look at the story and its elements. He finds that annoying. If you read any of what I wrote how can you not see that I am in complete agreement with that? What wrote as I said is ONE way to look at the story. I never said it was the only way and went out of my way to offer a PERSPECTIVE to maybe offer the original poster a different way of thinking about it, not gospel truth. What you're saying is proving my point. You saw my stance and for whatever reason your gut reaction was to belittle my thoughts because they're not in line with whatever you're thinking. Like Anno said, that's annoying. |
Najdv2 said: Champloo_Remix said: My point is simple. Almost all your chatter about understanding Anno and his views on history is on the same level as the understanding of people who believed that Mari was Anno's wife.Mari being a stand in for Anno's wife isn't incredibly important at all. That's not even remotely the point that I am making first off. I don't understand the point that *you're* trying to make. But besides that, you have the audacity to write such texts as if Anno is your close friend, with whom you drink tea in the evenings from time to time. In fact, your reasoning is nothing more than a flight of fancy, which explains little, but gives you the opportunity to put on airs. Like, "I understood the story so well, I understood Anno so well, I'll tell you everything now." And as for your thoughts. The point here is not whether they conform to my views or not. The point here is that you are trying to pass off your thoughts as the way the director thought. And when you were ridiculed for this, then you decided to be offended as a silly teenager. Ok i can understand that you are angry against him for acting like his opinion is having the weight of Anno agreement when its not really the case but he was just sharing a opinion in the end...that dont really worth such aggressive a answer i think. |
|
DoctorOddball said: I just want to come off by saying I am deathly afraid of Evangelion. Hard as it is to believe, I have animephobia. I am currently looking for someone to help me overcome my fear of Evangelion, my fear of anime. If you want to know why, please read the following. It is a detailed essay detailing my traumatic experience from the Evangelion fandom during Lockdown. https://docs.google.com/document/d/12E5xdOOtUa4Nlh1OizVapCHn6St9olV0PUi1LV6Dm_U/edit?usp=sharing Look i'm neurodivergent too even if i do not really know what i have exactly because the doctors werent agree between themselves on which stuff i have but my life was far less harsh than yours no doubt. Therefore i was a bit surprise at first reading your text indeed that having animephobia or precise animephobia was even possible since in 30 years of life i hear it of it for the first time while having hear quite a lot of neurodivergent people talking about their life but reading the whole text it did make sense to me. After all...when i was young myself i was very afraid of Miyazaki's movies because i was watching them too early my mom believing all cartoons were for babies at the time...i watched this pretty violent images as a baby and only retried at seven years old and liked it then. Before i was unable too maybe its a bit the same. Evangelion is partly fictional partly inspired by Anno's life...lots of autistic people relate to it and to Shinji character especially a lot your definitively not alone in that. So much so that many have speculated Anno might be autistic himself and have had similar challenges than you hence why you might see so much of your life in his story. Now sorry but for the part were you talk about instance were your own behavior was sexually inappropriate you cant really blame autism on that. Its very probable people wary of you because of this stories more than because of your opinion on a anime. Most people are a bit sad and annoyed when someone hates their fave anime but wouldnt go as far as bully someone for it. I think they rejected you way more because of this behavior than because you have a hate of Eva especially given your backstory with it. Forcing oneself to like something has no sense anyway...every masterpiece have people who cant get touch by it and even those who hates it and it accepted in cinema why wouldnt it be the same for anime? Seriously...no minor "try to incriminate people by attempting to bait them into grooming them"...even if they were kind of acting this way autistic or not your a adult responsible for your own behavior and they arent...not doing it no matter how much suggestive you feel like they are...its a very misogynistic mentality that really sickens me you have hear...sounds like Humbert Humbert blaming Lolita for "seducing him" while everything was his fault not her in Nabokov book honestly. I'm now pretty sure this minors you interacted with felt uneasy with you because of that mentality of yours not because of your feelings and opinion about Eva. Especially has you blame them as such when really Eva geeks of adult age arent hard to find in internet if you want to chat with adult eva fans. So you cant pretend only chatting it with minors was out of lack of choice. No one will believe that its obvious bullshit. Also as a feminist i quite wary of guys who pretend their ex girlfriend was mean to them, especially when given us details on their life that portray them in a really caricatural way making her seems evil, not that women being mean to men is impossible but its pretty often the case that the mean one really is the guy depicting his ex who is the abused one in a crazy ex girlfriend trope and that exactly what you do here while confessing you were having quite problematic sexual behavior on other occassions and real or not many people think you have push a female friend to suicide out of your own sexist attitude which quite frankly seems possible as the whole of your text reflect heavily sexist biaises on your part. And no you cant blame anime fans, Eva fans, autism or women on that either. None of this group is usually having the behavior you depict them having in your text so its looks highly suspicious and your testimony dont seems worthy of being trusted with all that sorry. Getting in detail of a woman who isnt their private life and mental issues that were private, not standing her rejection while she clearly told you many times she was not at ease in your relationship, depicting it as if you were giving her a giift by accepting her love even...do you realize how much icky your way to behave with her is iin your own words? Also sorry but autism dont in and on itself make people go paranoid, depersonalize, derealize and hallucinate...and seriously the way you talk about your experience with others sound really paranoid to a psychotic point...have you ever been tested for psychosis? Its not a insult on my part my own doctors couldnt decide wether i was autistic or psychotic and that was because of similar way of tough from what if feel to me are yours on that reading your text some part were you wary of all people around and imagine them having all bad intent for you with little to no proof of it do seems to me like me at my worst with such symptoms of mental health so i guess maybe it might worth know wether your psychotic or not because that might be why the therapist is unable to help you as it is. As for depression and trauma yes they are some of the main Eva themes (tough i would say freedom, choice and responsibility are even more so) but yeah many people dont got that depth and watch it for the cool robot fight especially at a young age not getting that part, even as adults for many when they cant link that to their own personal life its not obvious to them watching it as its pretty taboo themes many people not getting it and being really uninformed on it. So part why its not the best place to talk about if, the other part being some indeed like you know this themes at heart from their personnal life but dont want to talk about it especially when they are young in a anime forum where they go to a bit of escapism from their own issues with that. So yeah...probably more appropriate to get a reddit account and go to some of the mental health reddit if you want to talk this topic with people who want to chat about it in depth too. Especially has you were on Reddit already so that shouldnt have been that hard to redirect to more appropriated subreddits. I believe you for having anime and Eva/mecha phobia but obviously you blame it way too much for other problems that really were your own behavior induced even reading your own words. So yeah its ok feel like you do about anime and Eva/mecha as you cant help it anyway but tons of stuff you've confessed to do arent ok at all. Its also true that no piece of fiction can drive one near to suicide, only what you personnally project on it...so what really drives you to this impulse is not that but your own traumatic history before that you linked to its story and characters the way you see them. That others see them another way linked to their own life is just the way human mind works. That said if Eva trigger you so much i think the best is that you dont watch it even for yourself. Also...yes its true that the rebuild end up with a happy Shinji and as Anno get a lot of himself in him so as Anno is a well known succesfull person all over the world i guess you can say the real life inspiration for Shinji had a good life overall finally if that could get you more optimistic. I'm not wishing you a bad future but i really hope you realize the unacceptable things you seem to have did and stop it instead of trying to find them justification by blaming it on Eva or any other thing that werent really responsible for it. |
|
DoctorOddball said: Sylpheline said: I'm now pretty sure this minors you interacted with felt uneasy with you because of that mentality of yours not because Sylpheline said: I'm now pretty sure this minors you interacted with felt uneasy with you because of that mentality of yours not because of your feelings and opinion about Eva. If that’s the case, why did they attempt to direct message me over and over again when I asked them to leave me alone? Well if so then yes that would be abuse and mockery of you but i cant really believe you just on words on that one i need actual proofs. |
|
DoctorOddball said: Sylpheline said: Also sorry but autism dont in and on itself make people go paranoid, depersonalize, derealize and hallucinate...and seriously the way you talk about your experience with others sound really paranoid to a psychotic point...have you ever been tested for psychosis? Well, my greatest fear, insecurity, is my feelings, emotions, thoughts, traumas, all of them, being a fabrication of my Autism rather than mine to own. And that’s exactly what my 10th grade bullies took advantage of when they abused me, by saying my Autism was making me hallucinate their abuse. And when Eva fans kept telling me my isolation in Lockdown wasn’t real, I thought I was going insane That dont really answer the question. Maybe we're miscommunicate here but i dont meant to say that you were never abused. I believe you on that one. But you know when you've been abused long you cant start to be hypersensitive and thinking people are going out for you when they arent...that happened to me too so that may have been the case i wasnt there i could not be sure either way. |
|
DoctorOddball said: Sylpheline said: when they are young in a anime forum where they go to a bit of escapism from their own issues with that. Which is exactly the opposite message Eva is trying to convey to them, that escapism from ones own issues can be unhealthy if consumed so much. Sylpheline said: Eva/mecha as you cant help it anyway but tons of stuff you've confessed to do arent ok at all. I know I have made plenty of mistakes, and that was in part because I was paranoid about people coming to get me after everything they’ve threatened me with. Sylpheline said: only what you personnally project on it...so what really drives you to this impulse is not that but your own traumatic history before that you linked to its story and characters the way you see them. And that’s what upsets me, because I wanted Eva to cure me of my depression, to save me just like it has saved countless others. And when it didn’t work and resurfaced my adolescence trauma instead, I felt forced to relive every single traumatic moment in my life: like Asuka in episode 22. And when they accused me of faking my depression just because Eva wasn’t working for me, I thought I was going insane Yes i agree that its the opposite of Eva message but well...people get messages in art works the wrong way or choose to ignore it pretty often this is not a eva specific thing. Well...i think here you've been cheated by some common saying that is over exagerated saying a anime cure depression is a way to say it gets people very happy. Its not literal most of the time. Yes anime can and did soothe some symptoms to many people and helped them living their life better but saying it could cure such feelings in and on itself i dont think a mere fictional media have such a power. I think it could have save people as in saving them from a very dark moment or for some from suicide attempts even i have heard of it. I wasnt in such a dark place but i was needing anime against bad times in my life so i kind of can guess what it would feel and find that possible but for anime to get people free of depression altogether all alone i found that to be pretty unlikely indeed. If you believed it literaly and were very hopeful that it could yeah it was overselled to you a great deal and i understand why your angry at that and people suggesting it. As it was clearly a lie even if not willingly on their part and a cruel one to you. I dont believe you fake your depression at all. And i think its indeed was weird and pretty ableist on people part that they would shame you for not curing of your depression from such an unreliable method to cure it. Now insane is relative wether you could be considered psychotic or not trauma, depression and suicidal feelings are considered "insane" by some, so do autism, i think hating people for "insanity" what ever it is is wrong anyway and being "insane" even if clinically so shouldnt be a source of shame but yeah easier said than done in a society were its shamed everywhere i understand that and that feeling like losing one's mind is scary. Did happened to me too sometimes. I can understand that its awful to live and empathize with that part of your suffering at least. |
|
DoctorOddball said: Sylpheline said: Well if so then yes that would be abuse and mockery of you but i cant really believe you just on words on that one i need actual proofs. I believe I have provided proof in the form of screenshots which I posted in the Google document linked. I'm unsure its constitute proof in itself as such thing can be faked...i suspend my judgement on it its pretty serious accusation cyberharassment is a crime so such case should be judged by competent authorities not me especially as i'm gullible and tend to believe good intent in people too easily and its have me unwantingly helping people who were dangerous in the past because of not guessing their danger so i'm not going to get in more depth into that or such serious things i dont have the ability to judge to be sure not doing that again ever. |
|
DoctorOddball said: Sylpheline said: I think it could have save people as in saving them from a very dark moment or for some from suicide attempts even i have heard of it. I wasnt in such a dark place but i was needing anime against bad times in my life so i kind of can guess what it would feel and find that possible but for anime to get people free of depression altogether all alone i found that to be pretty unlikely indeed. If you believed it literaly and were very hopeful that it could yeah it was overselled to you a great deal and i understand why your angry at that and people suggesting it. As it was clearly a lie even if not willingly on their part and a cruel one to you. At the very least, I just wanted Evangelion to make me feel better about myself. You see, the whole reason why I chose to watch The End of Evangelion was because of its praiseworthy reviews, and how people claimed that it saved them from suicide, and helped them overcome a very dark time in their life. And I wanted Evangelion to save me; so badly. I hoped that film could help me overcome the grief I felt for the suicide of my childhood friend. But it didn’t and instead it triggered my grief for him, and resurfaced my High School Abuse; forced me to relive it. And I went to the fandom for help because I was scared, horrified, utterly confused of why The End of Evangelion made me feel so much worse about myself. Their answer was that I was faking it. They said there is no way that an anime could trigger me this badly; or re-traumatize me. And I thought there was something really wrong with me. Didnt you said the end of rebuild make you felt better? Then its job is done. As for the show that is. Now fandom is another thing. Well i know and believe that fiction can retrigger trauma of people severly especially such a hard and fresh trauma so i dont think its a thing really wrong with you for feeling that way but such a knowledge i've got from people teaching about trauma informed stuff...its not that accessible and common a knowledge i cant blame average teenage eva fans for not knowing that tough i understand it did make you feel worse unfortunately. Really i think you probably will be better off chatting that with people in the ptsd subreddit than in a eva forum. They might know nothing about Eva (or maybe some would its a pretty popular and well known anime show even outside anime fans after all) but they know about mental health and its seems you do need to talk with people who knows about that more than about Eva for the most part. |
SylphelineAug 20, 2023 12:49 PM
|
| SHORT INTRODUCTION : Sorry in the first place, I'm not a native-speaker, my words would be mess up in future. I casually only read discussion and leave, because I felt ashamed with my English. But this time... DoctorOddball said: Bro, I have read your story and I wanted to help you. Well, you may have already tired of word 'I'll help you', but, at least let me explain my perspectives on your case. Me personally, don't really care if you are lying and setting all of this for your own desire, but I'm the person that would help someone with some kind of mental-health like you. I've had someone who had the same illness back then too. I guess there are still many terrible stories you experienced, right? Well, it's really complicated to discuss if the topic involved one of the greatest hits in Anime history. You know, the more big its Anime, the more big fanbase it creates. Unfortunately, in my opinion (feel free to quote me in this statement), in this era of Anime has more toxic people than back 2010's and they were hiding in Fanatic fans.. I really love Evangelion; series but I won't be hating or judging on someone who hate or even may mocking EVA bad, every each persons has their own point of view on something.I just want to come off by saying I am deathly afraid of Evangelion. Hard as it is to believe, I have animephobia. I am currently looking for someone to help me overcome my fear of Evangelion, my fear of anime. If you want to know why, please read the following. It is a detailed essay detailing my traumatic experience from the Evangelion fandom during Lockdown. https://docs.google.com/document/d/12E5xdOOtUa4Nlh1OizVapCHn6St9olV0PUi1LV6Dm_U/edit?usp=sharing DoctorOddball said: I quote this, because this should be the thing that you clearly able to face it. You're interacting with someone out there, AND this was clearly out of your control, bro. They are making a fun of you, even though you keep on telling to stop, they won't. If you're expecting on they will behave as you wanted to, big wrong. I hope you're understand at my point.Sylpheline said: I'm now pretty sure this minors you interacted with felt uneasy with you because of that mentality of yours not because Sylpheline said: I'm now pretty sure this minors you interacted with felt uneasy with you because of that mentality of yours not because of your feelings and opinion about Eva. If that’s the case, why did they attempt to direct message me over and over again when I asked them to leave me alone? Back to the topic, you have a lot of problems with your autism condition, buli es, abusive, etc. that almost ended up your life, then you tried to watched Evangelion because you heard and saw review from internet says that 'might be' help you but sadly it didn't matches with you were expecting before and even worse your condition. As you found out character name Asuka then you realized someone in your RL has a similar with. Then, I guess it must be stroke you like a lightning in your mind and save it for long long period until you hate on character fictional Asuka. May I ask you something, bro? In your deepest mind, which one you really able to you see in the present, Grace or Asuka? The answer is Asuka, right? Character fictional made up to portray their image, appearance, and personality. Unlucky for you, this Asuka will always reminds you to that person. I'll quote from your Doc "It's all in your head, none of it is real". May I ask you again? You aren't robot, right? Then, if you're human you should keep in my mind, there is no possible to forgot something bad in the past, except we accepted it as a part of your life, it wouldn't make you forgot but should be ease your bad feeling of it. You said you're believe in God, right? Well then this is part of your life that had created by God. Accept it bro. Ohh... You may thinking 'its not as easy as you thinking' , Well, I'm telling all of this may sound harsh to you, and I know of a friend of mine said "Just listen to the story, don't lecture him", because everyone hates to be lectured when they are in the middle who telling their story. But, you really need someone to push you. Let me know your response, feel free to message me. Keep spirit.. |
| Random Character Picture |
| Also I'm enjoying this discussion of Mari, the character all by sudden has a big role even in movie she has only a little screen time. |
SkinnyBoyKittyAug 20, 2023 1:55 PM
| Random Character Picture |
More topics from this board
» Totally disappointed at the storyshuvrokun - 11 hours ago |
16 |
by EtherLux
»»
23 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » Ode to Solitudetsubagakure - Dec 1, 2024 |
13 |
by AccurateRatings
»»
Dec 19, 2024 10:36 AM |
|
Poll: » Evangelion: 3.0+1.0 Thrice Upon a Time Episode 1 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )S0UVIK - Aug 12, 2021 |
339 |
by Pangea_
»»
Oct 30, 2024 9:44 AM |
|
» Does Asuka and Shinji end up together in EoEMotherMisato - Aug 13, 2021 |
20 |
by Viriathus
»»
Oct 29, 2024 4:56 PM |
|
» [spoilers] how do you feel that Asuka is literally like Reideg - Aug 14, 2021 |
14 |
by Viriathus
»»
Oct 22, 2024 6:59 AM |