The Irregular at Magic High School (light novel)
Takuan_Soho said: skudoops said: From an anime only perspective, I want some of the defenders of this to tell me what the GAA is good at or at least name some good people (ability or personality wise) from there. They are very good at launching surprise attacks on the Japanese (who are definitely are the "boke" of the GAA/ Japan combo), forcing them to rely on Tatsuya for their survival. And the "Golden Silkworm" technology was said to be very good. And everytime Lu Gonghu lost it was because he was outnumbered, and in each battle it was implied he would have beaten any single opponent except Tatsuya had it been one on one. And despite being outnumbered and outgunned, the GAA strategy would have worked had it not been for Miyuki. The GAA commander had managed to infiltrate into Association despite all the setbacks that the raid had suffered. So there are 4 things. And Zhou, despite hating Japan, showed that he was a good person by protecting that girl when it would have been better for him to have let Lu Gonghu eliminate her. So not all foreigners are bad. Oh, should also add that even "No Head Dragon" didn't want to kill people despite the fact that their lives were at stake. They showed enormous patience in playing around the edges until Tatsuya forced their hand. And all this in an animation that cut out around 85% of the novel's details, stripping things down to the bare minimum necessary to tell the story. Given how all video likes to have simplistic heroes and villains (e.g. SAO), I think the animation did a pretty good job at not taking the easy way out. And don't forget Meilin Richardson (Lin), who despite being the daughter of the head of NHD, ended up being a very good and open-minded person. |
| it's not propaganda, "racism" or anything close... It's just that the Japaneses use the Chinese as generic bad guys the same as say the US uses Russia (and sometimes China and North Korea) as such you can find the same thing pretty much anywhere... go to any country and their media will occasionally use whatever other country they have been at odds with a bunch in the past as generic bad guys... now-a-days you see it a little less because of the P.C. a-holes so they use safe universally acceptable bad guys like terrorist, nazis, zombies, nazi zombies and so forth |
LiquidacidOct 6, 2014 8:39 PM
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kuraiken said: I had a similar discussion with wrenchbread, where he ultimately decided not to provide any of his endless amount of examples that he said he could show me. You could've easily done without mentioning me, but I'll humor you. I didn't answer because you've proven in your posts that you're a waste of my time. One doesn't need to be neck-deep in shit to smell it. Take a hint, man. |
| @ kuraiken I think you've won the argument since he's insulting you personally now instead of arguing back :) |
| Whatever makes you two sleep a night. Edit: Legal proceedings might work that way, but arguments? Shitty arguments are still shitty arguments. |
wrenchbreadOct 7, 2014 4:22 PM
darkreaperix said: @ kuraiken I think you've won the argument since he's insulting you personally now instead of arguing back :) So are you basically saying, that profile-stalking fanboys have lost too? :P |
No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded. |
| Oh, it’s a pity that I am so late to answer. I am sorry! I got terrible flu, and couldn’t muster strength or will to do anything besides lying very quietly in the corner.( I think it’ll be highly useless, but I’ll try to write my replies now. Sorry for the numerous mistakes! It will be a long post, so I won’t be able to proofread it properly. TKMike said: Well you're right about this, but what I meant is that the enemies were the same level as the Japanese army, so there is not really a reason (IMO) to think that it's propaganda. They didn't want to start a war to take over Japan, so a huge sized army with their best mages wouldn't be a logical reason to do that. --- So GAA didn't look pathetic IMO at all, since we all know that Tatsuya is just way too OP. I agree that there’re justifications in their universe, but if we look at Mahouka as on a work of fiction, than, I think, it is important, that almost no decent enemies were introduced. It is even atypical – usually in a shounen authors try to create a cool nemesis for protags and are ready to start building the animosity by, for example, including said antagonist at first in some recon invading force. I mean, they didn’t give the invading Chinese anything to make them memorable. TKMike said: Haha what I meant was the conversation Miki with Mizuki, after finding out that Mizuki had those eyes Miki always wanted to have. He said that he wanted to rape her if he didn't change. The funny thing is how Mizuki reacted and something that I'm questioning what the society is in Japan in the Mahouka Universe... Oh, I remember that scene. It was one of the higher points of the writing, in my opinion. I expected this series to be like that – to focus on the clan struggles between arrogant, powerful and a bit scary young magical prodigies. I had high hopes for this pair too. I wanted to know why Miki had changed and what was other mages’ ways of getting what they wanted. TKMike said: You're right about this and this may be a bad adoptation problem of the LN. I dunno, don't read the LN hehehe. But as far as I can tell is that neither Japan or GAA is the site of justice, nor is Tatsuya. Tatsuya’s family is shown as evil, or, more precisely, as going overboard, but I can’t say that critique goes beyond that and questions their society in the whole. There’re some things that seem hardly acceptable to us, but I can’t say, whether they are condemned in Mahouka or not. There’re ways to show evaluation through direction or subtle touches in writing, but I didn’t notice enough signs that the author distances himself from the pov of those living in Mahouka and considering that everything is ok. TKMike said: But to answer it seriously, Tatsuya is neutral, so Japan won because of having a neutral guy in their team. If Japan would form a threat to Miyuki, then Tatsuya would do the same as what he did to the NHD or the GAA members ;) Frankly, it’s difficult for me to discuss Tatsuya’s pov, because it is not conveyed too well. I didn’t understand his stance on most of the important questions. What is shown is that he works for their defense forces, but, whether he does think their cause just or doesn’t, isn’t. I have no other option but to think that he thinks it just, since he does the actions that support it. kuraiken said: You identify the decision to chose choosing a country that's relateable though fictional as a "worrying set of views"? I think there is a significant difference between a "set of views" and the decision which antagonist to use and what focus to employ. Nah, by “worrying set of views” I meant broader specter of ideas in Mahouka, not only the choice of the enemy. kuraiken said: Mahouka does not go out of its way to establish the chinese as sympathetic deep characters whom everyone can empathize with, that's true. But that is because it's simply not necessary and superflous from the perspective of the narrative. The chinese are, from the perspective of the narrative, not important, they do not need to be established as sympathetic characters, because it's simply not about them. I firmly believe that not showing political conflicts one-sidedly is a common courtesy in today’s world, something any decent and intelligent person must do and does naturally, no matter the focus of the story. In my opinion, it is essential. Also using this logic, I could make a work where all the black people steal and then say that there were no law-abiding black people, because they were not necessary in this story (I am sorry, it’s just a toxic stereotype, that came to mind). kuraiken said: One of the key principles of story-telling is to only tell what pertains to your story, because any act of story-telling is insanely, incredibly, monstrously selective. Yep, but any work of art is also an utterance that is sent to the world and affects it. I don’t think that an author should be prohibited to write something, but we have any right to judge what he has written afterwards. kuraiken said: You argue that Mahouka could have selected a fictional nation, but it did. The GAA is not real, and to distinguish between reality and fiction is important. If we ignore the distinction and transfer the suspension of disbelief into reality, we might then argue: Who could have been chosen? As I’ve written above, fiction does not only reflects reality, but also affects it, if it has some footing in reality it warps it even more violently through people that read/watch it. When a real conflict is used in fiction, especially one that is still relevant, it is extremely dangerous, suspension of disbelief or not. Actually propaganda creates its own fiction, that is different from reality, yet it fuels wars. I don’t believe that entertainment fiction can or should be given free pass. There’re too many examples that demonstrate its power. kuraiken said: If any real country is chosen, the same argument could be made. Sweden? -> Mahouka is against swedish people. Invent a not real-group? The Central-European Alliance with switzerland at its hand? -> Mahouka is against european people. No, not necessary. Higher degree of abstraction would make it safer. Also making enemies less inhuman could help to stave off the criticism. kuraiken said: It's easy to identify propaganda as propaganda from the outside when you have something that clearly is propaganda. Yet when you isolate criteria, look at the mechanics, the problem that has persisted is that ultimately, anything and everything could be considered propaganda. Even if you craft an entirely fictional world, if the values, moral sets or opinions are relateable to some culture, if will be seen as offspring of that culture. More or less.) Any fictional world is a reflection of the real one to some extent. That’s why it is necessary to demonstrate that no conflicts are black and white. Or, at least, that they are somewhat complex, with different living people on any side. Maybe when antagonists are bloodsucking aliens or monsters, indiscriminate killing is fine, but not in case of a conflict between people. kuraiken said: If you would define Mahouka as propaganda work, or heavily influencing, which factors that are universally applicable would you identify for it? Hmm. I think that would be clear superiority of one side over another, dehumanization of the enemy, heroes not questioning reasons of the conflict or means of eliminating their enemies. kuraiken said: Can they be transferred and used on other works and correctly identify whether they are propaganda works or not? I think that superiority and dehumanization are a must. kuraiken said: That's not exactly true. In fact, the two nations with the strongest propaganda machinerie are china and russia, because they go beyond forging ideas to punishing non-confirming ideas and eliminating them. The US isn't quite there yet, though between Prism and the NSA, they're just a step short of prohibiting non-confirming beliefs on similar scale. Nah, modern Russian propaganda is weak. Soviet one was decently powerful, but not the modern one. Also most of the people, who were past infancy in 90-s saw the interesting moment of disappearance of one propaganda system and the slow forming of the next. It’s postmodern as hell and very enlightening. I’ve learned to deleninify books in my middle school (I could even tell an average ratio of data/USSR rubbish in a book from two or three glances). :D Ii think that USA is doing much better with all those Hollywood movies and popular culture. There’re some people for whom USA is a religion. kuraiken said: There are such movies? I've never seen a WW2 movie that in some way humanized nazis. "Saving Private Ryan" seemed to do so for a bit, but eventually concluded that "a best nazi is a dead nazi". I meant our local soviet spy operas. In them Nazis were enemies, but they were powerful, intelligent and could have some human traits. You didn’t get the impression that they’re simple monsters. kuraiken said: In what way are the "chinese badmen" dehumanized? Can you provide specific scenes and arguments why such characterization is not just flat characterization or stereotypical characterization (of villian archetypes) but specifically dehumanizes? Are stereotypes not dehumanizing? Well, it’s a very complicated thing, so I won’t go into it… *sigh* May I approach it lightly? I really don’t want to rewatch… For me the most important thing is the appearance rule. In anime good-looking characters are typically the ones that are allowed agency. The spies were mostly burly ugly men – it’s a bad thing in anime, a monster, non-human trait. Note that the only good-looking guy is the most human. Secondly, I don’t remember any human interaction between them. They didn’t have many scenes, that’s for sure, they were not bult as people – they were simply scheming enemies and a nuisance. That’s not that typical too – many series show their antagonists’ personalities during secret meetings of the evilmen and such. Zhao raving as a beast in the last episode was bad too – ugly, degrading and, ultimately, not very effective. His armor was stereotypically Chinese, as far as I can tell. |
deadoptimistOct 8, 2014 10:38 AM
deadoptimist said: I think you are expecting Mahouka to be something it isn't. It is not a political thriller. It is not a battle shounen. It is also neither a detective novel nor any other mystery story. It is just mediocre slice of life about toaster and refrigerator. |
No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded. |
jakkubus said: I think you are expecting Mahouka to be something it isn't. It is not a political thriller. It is not a battle shounen. It is also neither a detective novel nor any other mystery story. It is just mediocre slice of life about toaster and refrigerator. Ahaha. :D I think that a love story between a toaster and a refrigerator would be a better romance than Mahouka. |
jakkubus said: I think you are expecting Mahouka to be something it isn't. It is not a political thriller. It is not a battle shounen. It is also neither a detective novel nor any other mystery story. It is just mediocre slice of life about toaster and refrigerator. don't forget that the toaster and refrigerator throw off some major incestuous vibes between them... pretty sure that was a major point of the show :D |
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deadoptimist said: Ahaha. :D I think that a love story between a toaster and a refrigerator would be a better romance than Mahouka. It's one of the rare shows, that cannot be described as "Still a better love story than Twilight". :P |
No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded. |
DrGeroCreation said: If this is so then I guess the Baseball episode in Samurai Champloo is propaganda also and any anime that shows Americans in a negative light is Japanese propaganda and racist. There is more than that going on in this show. They drone on about how they worked really hard to develop the skills that allow them to make more money and those poor uneducated people just won't understand that...etc. So yea I'll buy this thread. |
kuraiken said: Stereotypes are a necessity, because you could not possibly – in any medium – accurately characterize all characters. A baker is usually a baker, he bakes things. He’s not a person, just a stereotype fulfilling a function. If you look for stereotypes, you’ll find a lot of stereotypical among the main cast as well. >Stereotype  Quoting for posterity. And you wonder why I deemed you a waste of my time. One reason being I don't think you understand the meaning behind the words you're trying to argue with, especially with that baker being a baker analogy. A baker is an occupation. Saying all bakers are grumpy old men who work in the kitchen is a stereotype. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stereotype >to believe unfairly that all people or things with a particular characteristic are the same |
kuraiken said: And which broader spectrum are you referring to? Because in the post I replied to, you only mentioned the choice of the country as main enemy, not anything else. So I wonder, which spectrum of ideas is employed in Mahouka and how is it constructed? I wanted to express my general disapproval of the world view, shown in Mahouka, - of their society structure, treatment of women and elitism. But only the part about propaganda was relevant to the discussion, so I elaborated only on it. That starting statement is irrelevant to the further part of the post. If I would reply to ever point, we’ll drown, so I’ll simplify it (I don’t see any other way). I’ll list the fundamental differences in our approaches. The way I see it, you propose several points – 1) that whatever happens in Mahouka is necessary, because of practical reasons: author can’t include everything in his work; 2) That a work of art is fine as a closed off system – everything is as it is intended to be; 3) That an author can create any fictional universe, that he wants. I think these three things are applicable only on the basis of the so called presumption of greatness – when you see the work of art, which you analyze, as an ideal object, that is as it should be. I don’t think that Mahouka deserves such a respectful approach. Though it is suitable to study inner systems of works of art on academic level, the topic of propaganda demands to look into actual world – to seek the actual reader and maybe the actual author. So, for me, the main reason to consider Mahouka propaganda is the choice of the enemy and the incorporation of some of the things that real Japan propaganda says. Also I don’t buy into the explanation by applying to practicality. An author creates worlds as he sees fit. Omittance of some things can be more important than presence of the others. You say, that the Chinese are only a side-show, but isn’t that a sort of dehumanization? Also I don’t think that saying that the einvasion it was only a small episode is enough – that was the only example of the confrontation we were shown, so for us it represents its entirety. While there is a big fictional world, what we deal with is not the world itself, but its structured representation – the story, and in a story it’s important what elements are chosen and how they are arranged, the choice of the elements and their composition are intentional. That’s why, in my opinion, saying that something is there, but is simply not mentioned, is not an argument. Now that kuraiken said: do you know what criticism would come then? “Oh, another one of *those* authors. They’re so obsessed with making their work politically correct and reduce the number of biased people who get ridiculous ideas from it, that they ruin the narrative in the way. is an interesting point. I dislike the “every publicity is good” approach. I think, it is a deal with your conscience – you go as far as you allow yourself. And the others will criticize you afterwards. On the other hand, cases of conscious provocation are different from works, that are written by someone actually suffering from bad – harmful and perverted – ideas. To me, it looks like Mahouka’s author belongs to the second type and actually believes in all the crap the young magicians spout. I would be happy to be mistaken, but that’s the impression the adaptation leaves. kuraiken said: To you, it seems, it’s dehumanizing when an author does not meet your standard of humanizing the enemy. But what if someone with a more rigorous standard comes along and says at a work where you don’t see anything wrong: “It’s dehumanizing, not enough yet! Only one Chinese main character? Not enough I say!” Yep, that’s a problem. But that is a problem of degree, while Mahouka has a complete lack of the matter. kuraiken said: The third and fourth honestly boggle my mind. They seem to force any piece of work to become the stereotype where the main character spends minutes whining about the “why” and then crying about why words don’t work and why he has to kill them, and how dreadful it is, to him, now, here and then, in this moment of action where adrenaline defeats all thinking. Nah, you can show it through direction (music is good in such cases) or through subtle hints in dialogue. There is no need to explain everything in length. kuraiken said: If you constitute those as standards that must be upheld, a lot of movies would become even more limited to a pattern than they already are I think that decency should come naturally to people. kuraiken said: You find not fault for what Mahouka is, but for it not being what you want it to be. Oh, that’s usually like that with people. But I must admit, that I didn’t notice anything interesting going on in Mahouka besides the invasion and the preparation. Sure, there was some school squabble, but there was so little tension, that it didn’t look like the point of the plot. Maybe incest. I can accept that I am wrong and it is an incest romance story, but then it is bad on its own. kuraiken said: [Both Russia and China in particular have a very tight control on the internet in their country and what information can be posted in blogs etc. --- Both nations also constantly create nationalistic movies that attempt to craft a very strong nationality. -- but what the average Russian or Chinese people watch are not necessarily Hollywood movies. It’s Chinese movies. O_O Wow. I live in Russia, but… Ah, fine, I am almost past caring. But I must say that I haven’t seen a Chinese movie demonstrated in a cinema for a longest time. Hollywood moies are everywhere. kuraiken said: Stereotypes are a necessity, because you could not possibly – in any medium – accurately characterize all characters. I must agree wuth wrenchbread. There’re types, and they’re used in narration. Authors are praised for accurately reproducing existing types. Stereotypes are toxic. The only good use for them is subversion or being part of prejudices of a character. |
| You know, while I like discussing finer points of narrative, I have a growing suspicion, that Mahouka anime is simply badly written. XD No one can agree on about what it has been. Well, maybe the invasion wasn’t that important, but it was the main event of the last arc, and preparations for it were made in the previous arcs… I can’t understand how a decent writer can sideline the enemies, who are given a lot of screentime, to the extent of turning them into cardboard beating material without any personality. I honestly thought, that you don’t do things like this these days – now even irredeemably bad guys are given some human traits to make them more interesting and the show more entertaining and tense. That’s why the way Mahouka doesn’t invest anything in the enemies seems meaningful to me. kuraiken said: Many great books, some that play in the second world war (and boy do critics love those...) don't portray the second world war. They don't show multiple perspectives, they don't try to show both sides. Instead, they focus on what is most important in their project: for example the suffering of a german family in dresden during the bombing. Or the story of a young jewish family fleeing germany. Hm, I can hardly imagine such a story to be one-sided, if it is not intentional. Usually at the personal or family level human traits are the most visible. People usually mention even smallest human gestures of the enemies – if not sympathy, then their enemies’ truths. kuraiken said: Can you provide examples of those harmful and perverted ideas the young magicians are spouting? I can't recall any that would fit the bill. I think that Tatuya’s views on merit and effort are warped. Those ideas are supported by Miyuki, and are not opposed by anything or anyone. kuraiken said: So what's needed are things that exhibit dehumanizing ideas. ("Oh, let's kill all the chinese! They all deserve to die for it!"; "Bah, as expected, chinese were always inferior fighters. They can't stand against us!"; "God, do they look brutish. But they are chinese, after all.") Hm, by the way, I think, Juumonji’s words and the last words of the Chinese captain can qualify as propaganda stuff. kuraiken said: While that's true, would that be good enough for you? Or wouldn't you just say: "A little sad melody changes nothing that their perspective isn't shown enough!"? I won’t! By the way, I think that in this season Terror in Resonance was good at setting the moods in meaningful ways – a proper direction can hint at the underlying darkness very well. kuraiken said: Is there incest? I am 100% sure there is. kuraiken said: Oh, that's great. I don't, and I'm honestly curious about how people in russia perceive the conflict in ukraine, and what they think about Mr. P's attitude on homosexuals. Oh god, does everybody perceive something… Every opinion you can imagine – it is here. -_-“ Maybe that’s why I am so wary of propaganda – I’ve read so much about my “slave’s way of thinking” in the last year, that I can produce this discourse from any point even if woken in the middle of the night. At this very moment a Belarussian guy on a gaming forum tries to prove to me that I am a raving nationalist, who lives in a hellhole, and he is damn disrespectful… Sorry, I’ll end the rant. kuraiken said: Did you read my answer do our dear and valued friend wrenchbread, who so eagerly plunders the internet for memes to bolster his drained firepower? Nah, sorry, just looked through it not very attentively – I was not at home and didn’t have enough time. I’ll do it later, if we disagree again. Btw, thank to you, I’ve reread the Barthes essay, so, at least, the discussion is inspiring. :D I am not sure if it works in English, but that’s why I tried to distinguish between types and stereotypes. Types are simply a sort of features that usually coexist in a person in reality – they’re ok. I think that it covers the cases, which you mention as a necessary usage of easily recognized patterns in character building. Sterotypes – are types that don’t reflect reality and are harmful to people, they’re types gone bad, the way I use it. Of course, there’re different ways of using the term, but this one is close to the everyday language and represent an important idea. Like, I guess, there’re different types of Chinese people – types that you can see on streets of Peking, types that you see in different provinces. It is important to reflect those properly, when writing on China. On the other hand, there is a stereotype, that all the Chinese students are spies or the infamous Chinese tiger mother. I’ve looked through the text you linked, and it too starts with telling that stereotypes are bad, and then has several paragraphs on subversion. kuraiken said: 1. I don't believe that everything that happens in Mahouka is necessary, but everything that is included in Mahouka is included via selection: the author decides this, and not something else, has to be included (in some parts, conventions of course play in, as some anime series have this dreadful habit of fanservice, which, of course, contributes nothing to the story itself). Yes, that’s why I say that the absence of some things is meaningful. Yep, you can’t expect everything to be included, but, as I said, not making enemies one dimensional seems to be a norm these days, though there is the aforementioned problem of not understanding fully, what is the main point of Mahouka, and also it brings us to the 2. kuraiken said: 2. That's not accurate, in my opinion. The reason being that (as I argued earlier) it's impossible to control the audiences reaction. You can try to, to some degree, but how any individual receives the medium depends entirely on that person and unless the person *allows* the medium to influence him, it won't in significane. I believe in the theory of the ideal reader – someone, who the author pictures as the addressant of his utterance. I don’t think that people can create just for themselves – they create, so that other people may see their work (even if they don’t plan to publish it, there is a figure of the interlocutor). An author tries then to affect his reader. I think that a certain template of a reader and reader’s supposed reaction is included in the work, though, of course, it can go not in the intended way, if the system is broken or is inadequate to the available readers (no one meets the demands of the work for it to be understood in the intended way). kuraiken said: 3. This part, I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean a. he can create anything that he wants to, even if its considered an undesireable creation (morality argument) or b. he is in full power of creating a universe entirely to his wishes (author-as-god argument)? a. I was referring to your argument, that we can’t judge a work of art. kuraiken said: I don't think you could ever actually use "presumption of greatness" to consider a work as finite. Nah, it’s not about evaluation, it’s about not nitpicking. That’s an approach that views a work of art as a system, where everything has its meaning without lose ends. It is used sometimes in literary analysis, I believe. Something to prevent from criticizing instead of analyzing. |
| Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the point in having such an in-depth argument when at least one of the parties hasn't read the source material (at least, as far as I know). It's not like the anime was an amazing adaptation. Anyways, I think people just need to look at this as a work of fiction and separate it from reality. Tatsuya and his cohorts are aliens from Mars, the GAA are aliens from Jupiter, and the USNA are from Venus. And the other countries can be the other planets. Switzerland is Pluto, which isn't a planet anymore. So it's neutral. |
dream_eater1012 said: Maybe it's just me, but I don't see the point in having such an in-depth argument when at least one of the parties hasn't read the source material (at least, as far as I know). It's not like the anime was an amazing adaptation. Anyways, I think people just need to look at this as a work of fiction and separate it from reality. Tatsuya and his cohorts are aliens from Mars, the GAA are aliens from Jupiter, and the USNA are from Venus. And the other countries can be the other planets. Switzerland is Pluto, which isn't a planet anymore. So it's neutral. It's just you. It's rather hard to assume, that GAA are from Jupiter, when we were told, that they are Chinese - despicable foreigners. Even if it is fiction, it doesn't mean it isn't propaganda. |
No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded. |
| But Japan beside fodders has also strong ones, when GAA doesn't (Lu wasn't a big deal). Also that moment, when Chinese were close to achieve their goal, was just PIS on Japanese side, because Shiba siblings needed to shine. Mod Edit: Removed quote of deleted post. |
VudisOct 15, 2014 11:04 AM
No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded. |
kuraiken said: I don’t think I can subscribe to that since it seems to suggest authors craft works for an audience except themselves. It suggests the act of writing is, from the outset, so that you reach and affect people. And that would make every authors very presumptuous. Just to support this, my experience has been that the majority of people who go into writing as a profession do it because they genuinely enjoy it. An audience outside of themselves is just the icing on a cake. Most writers just write for themselves, though. Plus, my experience has been that people who only write for others make utter garbage, since they often don't have any interest in self-improvement and care way too much about what other people think, therefore making them uninterested in any sort of critique that could help them. And anyway, even if Mahouka is or isn't propaganda, does it really matter? Plus, I could write a story from the point of view of someone who supports sex trafficking. Does that mean I myself also feel the same way? |
deadoptimist said: You know, while I like discussing finer points of narrative, I have a growing suspicion, that Mahouka anime is simply badly written. XD No one can agree on about what it has been. That's what I thought as well. It's badly written or racist. Story line is non existence unless Tatsuya Stuness or wincest qualified as story line to you. Mahouka feel like a poor attempt at trying to excel in both slice of life and action genre(bringing in Chinese,war setting) but fail both. As a result,too much time spend on info dump/slice of life and neglect the villains background and detail. kuraiken said: That’s just not a valid argument. You assume someone has to go out of their way to portray someone as particular human, but that’s neither standard nor should it be. Actually,it is standard at least in anime. It's what make a good story telling. For example, Gundam and even the alien that go war with human in Uchuu Senkan Yamato are portray better than the Chinese in Mahouka. kuraiken said: The important fact is that we’re talking about a work of fiction, and in the realm of fiction, stereotypes become much more and are not necessarily bad. You've gotta be kidding me. Stereotype are always bad even in fiction especially when it comes to racial stereotype. I heard Asian people complain about the portrayal of Asian in Hollywood like how they are always portray as nerd, some martial art master and Dragon Lady. Takuan_Soho said: I have a modest proposal. When the Chinese government stops using Japanese hatred as their "two minutes of hate" in order to prop up their increasingly corrupt dictatorship and when the Chinese government allows an honest assessment of the horrific abuse that Mao perpetrated on the country, and when the Chinese government no long seeks to destroy Tibetan culture, then we can have an honest discussion about Japanese propaganda in manga and animation. I find it hilarious that some people are obsessed with the supposed propaganda in a work of fiction, but ignore the blatant propaganda that exists in reality. Fair enough? Because we are in anime/manga forum. If you really want to condemn China and it's propaganda,you can always do it in many other site such as Japan Today(but they also condemn Japan if Japan did something wrong). I also condemn China before,but not in anime forum. For example, I've condemn China anti Japanese riot last time but not here in Myanimelist,I think it was in China Smack if I remember correctly. |
ZapredonOct 11, 2014 2:19 AM
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion. http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30 It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist. |
Takuan_Soho said: I have a modest proposal. When the Chinese government stops using Japanese hatred as their "two minutes of hate" in order to prop up their increasingly corrupt dictatorship and when the Chinese government allows an honest assessment of the horrific abuse that Mao perpetrated on the country, and when the Chinese government no long seeks to destroy Tibetan culture, then we can have an honest discussion about Japanese propaganda in manga and animation. I find it hilarious that some people are obsessed with the supposed propaganda in a work of fiction, but ignore the blatant propaganda that exists in reality. Fair enough? Nope. For example I live far away from China and no one broadcast their propaganda here (mostly because they are too busy with Russian propaganda :P ). But Mahouka is rather a bit more subtle in propaganda, not so rough like Communists. It doesn't matter, that GAA would succed, if the conditions were a bit different. Because they weren't. Chinese looked like pathetic weaklings and that's what viewer gets. Author wrote Mahouka to appeal to full of complexes part of Japanese society. |
No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded. |
TKMike said: Zapredon said: Actually,it is standard at least in anime. It's what make a good story telling. For example, Gundam and even the alien in Uchuu Senkan Yamato are portray better than the Chinese in Mahouka. Bolded part makes you a person that people shouldn't take you as serious as how I did in the past(if we exclude your signature...).... Seriously, I hope you aren't serious here, but I can sadly tell that you are serious based on your comments in the past. Let me tell you one thing here. If you think that your personal preferences are facts in this world and the writing world, then you've really a long way to go my friend. There are already alot of people saying that I should ignore you, but I wanted to state this thing only, because of my thought about the last "sorta" discussion we had and every previous one you mentioned before. ALL THE PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD ARE DIFFERENT FROM EACHT OTHER AND HAVES THEIR OWN OPINION ABOUT MATTERS/SUBJECT THAT WOULD MAKE US DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER. WHAT YOU LIKE ABOUT CERTAIN THINGS, DOESN'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THE "MAJORITY" AGREES WITH YOU. IN FACT, THE FACT THAT YOU THINK IT'S THE "STANDARD" OF GOOD STORYTELLING, MAKES YOU ALREADY THE PERSON WHO DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT THIS SMALL, YET VERY IMPORTANT THING IN THIS WORLD. BUT If you want to continue to take this dedicated path to solely hate on Mahouka(for whatever reason the anime has ever done to you) and only think that your preferences and opinion are the right one in this world, than my advice is that you should think before you write. A nice example is this one that I bolded, or your comment that said that Tatsuya is a copy of Hei and Alucard, because those 2 were for you the original one, while they were copies too of older anime character (should mention here that Tatsuya has indeed some traits(noooo copies my friend, except in your own world maybe) from other anime characters, just like Hei and Alucard has. In fact, if you've watched a decent amount of anime, then you would've noticed that alot of characters has traits that resemblance each other. But ohwell, you probably forgot that, since you need every single little thing there is to hate the anime Mahouka and Tatsuya right??) and ofcourse many more. It also seems that I'm not the only Chinese who thinks that you're more racist then the anime, since there was another comment of a Chinese that fellt the same way as I have that the "majority" of the people that are complaining here that this anime is about racism and propaganda are actually the more racist one. And I must confess something here too. I let many of my Chinese and Asian friend read these comments in this forum and they all agree that some here are ignorant, naive and more(that I would prevent to write in this thread.) and has weak arguments, incl. those who don't like Mahouka nor Tatsuya at all. In the end, based on all your previous discussions. The thing that was clearly to me is that you don't hate the anime for all this "supposedly" racism stuffs or propaganda stuffs. You just don't like the writing style of the author of this anime and just want to use every single thing there is to justify your reasoning. Just look at your signature that has grown over the last few months. You added every single thing that has been mentioned about Mahouka in your signature. I was surprised that you didn't add : "Mahouka's info dump is the anime version of my engineering book" or something towards that direction, since you spammed that all over the forum too... I believe that I can write more about this and the reason why I am writing something like this, is because your whole comment isn't about why it's propaganda and only about why you dislike this anime and the "suppossedly" racism(DO REMEMBER THAT RACISM ISN'T THE SAME AS PROPAGANDA).. I believe that a thread like that is already created. So go there with all your complaints... And you may have the last word here;) I don't care about it. Oh,I'm not sure about writing world in general but for anime,yes,it's standard and common. It's a FACT that the anime I WATCH so far portray everyone as human. Even alien is more human than Chinese. Does it make a better story telling? It certainly does at least in my opinion. You can call me bias,insult me whatever you want but it won't stop from thinking Mahouka is racist or had bad writing. And it certainly won't make me change my signature buddy. Mod Edit: Removed baiting. |
VudisOct 15, 2014 11:09 AM
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion. http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30 It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist. |
| it's amazing how many people in this thread don't actually understand what the word racist means |
|
Liquidacid said: it's amazing how many people in this thread don't actually understand what the word racist means Yes, this kind of thing makes me sad for humanity. And even though people still just want to complain, it's just wasted breath on something insignificant. But people tend to do that a lot, for whatever reason. I guess people just want to feel superior and that their opinion is the right one. Seriously, though, I don't see why people care so much about this. All of this is just an opinion, like any other one out there. |
| Found this in other forum. This is a very interesting read especially on how people from China view this show(some bolded part is something that has been brought up by members of Myanimelist). Before I start, please allow me to say there are many good reasons that people declaring this will be the most controversial anime in 2014. Please allow me to explain: I can definitely understand people saying the main characters are Gary-stu or Mary su. Tatsuya and Miyuki were portrayed as god-tier characters that their drawbacks feels irreverent or just having the excuse to say: they are not perfect. Here is the thing: Tatsuya is a weed, but who needs basics in magic spoiler[if you can overwhelm your opponent in seconds, literally?] I often heard people calling this Chuck Norris, the anime; I always hate myself for unable to debunk that idea, because no matter how hard I can list all the "flaws" the characters have, in the real fights that count...they are just...flawless. Oh, for anime watchers, please do get used to this formulaic introduction every time Tatsuya enters the fight: [Miyuki: My borther is super awesome! He is unbeatable! Others: Yeah righttt...you liar. Tatsuya: Since my sister's honor is on the line, I will have to destroy you (curb-stomping his opponent) opponent: You are awesome! Miyuki: I told you.] But the reason this anime being controversial has a little to do with characters, it's how politically-heavy and biased this fiction (yes I am aware it's just a fiction) is. Especially given how much tension is between various Asian countries. You know, it's ok to have your setting aimed negatively at certain groups or country, as long as it did not go overboard. Several Literary classics have done that. But Mahouka ignores all kinds of sugarcoating and potential bias, and willing to continuously portraying certain country and group as ultimate "villains", and wants audience to have enjoyments when seeing those "villains" getting either nuked, destroyed or becoming "particles". Remember seeing the big fleet getting exterminated in the first anime scene? [Because evil Chinese armada wants to invade Japan (lol wut) and our hero must stop them since they are portrayed as savages ] And here's the most ironic things in Mahouka: World war III? No, it's world war-II again except this time China and Japan's roles being reversed. And even more disgusting, Rape of Nanjing (Massacre that took away 300000+ lives of Chinese) now China is taking this role in the fiction. No one asking for balance in political preference, but can Mahouka at least stop mocking the historically victim countries like that? If you refuse to admit history, fine. But don't let those victim countries do the same thing in your novel that Japan did realistically! That's beyond suspension of any belief! And wow...the novel did all the expositions, foreshadows and righteous reasons to justify nuking [Chinese Union] as necessary and reasonable. worst of all, if making certain countries as villains doesn't satisfy the author, he blatantly stating people living on China towns in Japan are all spies or traitors, and should be alienated and better...exterminated. Even immigrants were being targeted into this madness? And please don't make your villains sound stupid only to make Tatsuya smart, the author is actually doing Tatsuya disservice. All in all, I hope Mahouka can still enjoy the anime as the show goes on. But would it be too much to ask...can you guys being a little cautious on "I cannot wait to see Tatsuya did XXXXX on volume X!" because for some people in other countries, or originate from those countries, that's...really insensitive. PS: In China, various websites already brought simulcast rights for most spring anime, but no one is daring to touch Mahouka. But Mahouka is actually currently the most popular show in Chinese internet show right now with 20 million+ views. People over there can't wait to see how their country is portrayed and already give the show nicknames (although not very accurate if you read novel): The Legendary Hero who Annihilates China and Humilates America / The Light of Yammato / The Battle Spirits of Eastern Hope. It is controversial, and that's the biggest selling point for the Chinese audience, because some admit: It's a surreal and ironic feeling to see China actually become an invader, and realistically it is amusing for wrong reasons. I apologize if anyone felt offended, and wish everyone has a great spring anime season! As Takuan_Soho mention before, people from China does indeed think Mahouka is racist,nationalistic,propaganda(or somewhere along those line) since they see it as controversy show to the point no websites in China want to brought simulcast right for Mahouka.In fact,Mahouka is one of the watch show in China for the wrong reason,'controversy'. This kinda apply to me as well since one of the reason I keep watching Mahouka is also because of controversy. I also agree with him that it's ironic to see the role of China and Japan have been reversed where in WW2,Japan is the villain that invade China but in Mahouka, it's China that invade Japan while Japan don't invade other countries. Of course,I'm aware today,China is being view negatively more than Japan,though China has yet to invade Japan. LOL! Chinese people calling Mahouka The Legendary Hero who Annihilates China and Humilates America. Seems to me everyone including Chinese people like to make fun of Mahouka. Indeed,Mahouka is easily the most controversial anime of 2014. I myself have never seen an anime as controversial as this. |
ZapredonOct 11, 2014 10:10 PM
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion. http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30 It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist. |
Takuan_Soho said: Zapredon said: Found this in other forum. This is a very interesting read. In the novels it is made clear that what started WWIII wasn't caused by aggression, rather it was a conflict between environmental migration and national sovereignty. So no, Japan's and China's roles were not reversed. China was not portrayed as being wrong in the story. Even when the writer touched upon the Korean invasion of Tsushima and the death's of nearly all the Japanese inhabitants he stressed that the Koreans were not wrong, but rather that was what every country (including Japan) did at that time. In Mahouka,did China invade Japan because of environmental migration? Reason don't justify war.It just lip service. Any country that try to invade is view as villain. Also,in Mahouka,did Japan ever invade other countries? Edit: @TKMike Takuan_Soho the one that brought up LN first. |
VudisOct 15, 2014 11:14 AM
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion. http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30 It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist. |
Zapredon said: [ In Mahouka,did China invade Japan because of environmental migration? Reason don't justify war.It just lip service. Any country that try to invade is view as villain. Also,in Mahouka,did Japan ever invade other countries? Nice that the discussions for Mahouka here is still alive :) Japan didn't invade other countries since they are too busy constantly infighting between themselves with the 10 MC's can't be said to be under the control of the government and the government is only slightly influenced by the 10 MC's.Everyone has it's own agenda and faction and just basically gets united in event's like in Yokohama or Okinawa. For propaganda,as I said before I can't call it propaganda since: -Japan is not portrayed as a hero of justice and even shown to be as bad as any country with their discrimination's,inhumane experiments and later on back stabbing and infighting within. -MC's Tatsuya and Miyuki don't fight for peace,justice,for country,blah,blah,they fight for each others safety and protection,nothing else. -story doesn't revolve around Japan vs GAA or USNA or any other country like for Code Geass or another anime that has a similar storyline.The story is about Tatsuya and Miyuki and their daily lives either it be fighting another country,Japanese,vampires,etc,or just doing school stuff.Another side of the story has too many spoilers,just search Dahan and Zhou's character profile in wikia for further info :) -In Yokohama arc the only characters that fought for country is Masaki and Juumonji,Tatsuya fought to protect Miyuki's peace,the other First High students fought for their safety. and later escaped. -Tatusya is not a hero of justice or nationalistic,he will kill anyone that will disturb Miyuki's peace and safety (as long as it doesn't have high political problems later on for him and Miyuki,unless Miyuki gets almost killed again).even if they are from the JSDF,10 MC's,Japanese government or from another foreign country.Think if the Saegusa clan will start to target Miyuki or harm her,he will decompose everyone of them even Mayumi if she has shown to be hostile. -Satou can't be called nationalistic,blah blah since he has portrayed the Japanese can be more evil than the GAA. |
darkreaperix said: Nice that the discussions for Mahouka here is still alive :) Cause necromancy is fun. :P Japan didn't invade other countries since they are too busy constantly infighting between themselves with the 10 MC's can't be said to be under the control of the government and the government is only slightly influenced by the 10 MC's.Everyone has it's own agenda and faction and just basically gets united in event's like in Yokohama or Okinawa. Sorry, but that is bullshit. If it was true, Shiba siblings identity would be already known among Ten Master Clans, thanks to Tatsuya's showy performances. But no, no one really tried to investigate him, because he is a precious friend... For propaganda,as I said before I can't call it propaganda since: -Japan is not portrayed as a hero of justice and even shown to be as bad as any country with their discrimination's,inhumane experiments and later on back stabbing and infighting within. -MC's Tatsuya and Miyuki don't fight for peace,justice,for country,blah,blah,they fight for each others safety and protection,nothing else. -Tatusya is not a hero of justice or nationalistic,he will kill anyone that will disturb Miyuki's peace and safety (as long as it doesn't have high political problems later on for him and Miyuki,unless Miyuki gets almost killed again).even if they are from the JSDF,10 MC's,Japanese government or from another foreign country.Think if the Saegusa clan will start to target Miyuki or harm her,he will decompose everyone of them even Mayumi if she has shown to be hostile. Um, what do you have with that "hero of justice" thing? It's not the main problem here. The problem lies in how Chinese are presented. Leaving out good vs evil case, they are portrayed as weak and pathetic. And before you say, that they would succed, if Doge siblings weren't there, it's just making excuses. That moment was PIS on Japanese side and it was written that way only to make siblings shine. -story doesn't revolve around Japan vs GAA or USNA or any other country like for Code Geass or another anime that has a similar storyline.The story is about Tatsuya and Miyuki and their daily lives either it be fighting another country,Japanese,vampires,etc,or just doing school stuff.Another side of the story has too many spoilers,just search Dahan and Zhou's character profile in wikia for further info :) The story is about wanking to Tatsuya's power and Miyuki's beaty. That's all. :) -In Yokohama arc the only characters that fought for country is Masaki and Juumonji,Tatsuya fought to protect Miyuki's peace,the other First High students fought for their safety. and later escaped. How that is making GAA less pathetic? -Satou can't be called nationalistic,blah blah since he has portrayed the Japanese can be more evil than the GAA. When Japan was presented as a country in worse light than GAA? |
No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded. |
| Thread cleaned. I had to remove a lot of posts because it was just an on-going back and forth baiting. You should really try to calm down or the thread might be locked due to the insults being thrown by mahouka vs non mahouka fans. |
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