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Subby said: Caster's final words can be interpreted a couple of ways like "What have I..", "Just what, did I.." but the meaning is the same. I think he felt remorse with how he went astray after Jeanne's death. In the novel it describes that scene as a happy celebration where they were victorious and are crowning King Charles in a cathedral. He remembered the joy and regretted forgetting it. Ok, thanks, that's pretty much what thought that's why the translation felt weird. It also makes much more sense with the crowning memory. They could have used that. |
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| :Spoiler: Everyone was so nice to each other, I guess that's either the knights honor or the realization that they had to work together in order to stop Caster. Still, I was surprised no-one but Ryuunosuke was "assassinated" - unlike Kariya who just got owned. |
| Before enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment - chop wood, carry water. |
| Kirei's smile while healing Kariya was rather disturbing. I suppose he did that to see Kariya fight Tokiomi again (and I assume kill him this time as I don't think Kirei would go that far). Maybe their fight brough some pleasure for Kirei and that's why he remebered Gilgamesh's words. Speaking of Gil, I didn't expect his name to get revealed since Saber finds it out only 10 years later. This still makes sense as it was Rider who figured out Archer's (it's so strange to call him Archer) and Saber still doesn't know that. Jeanne was a nice touch and in the end I kind of felt bad for Caster. :( |
PerlaNemesis said: Lol, Saber is just a dummy, that said, King Arthur never left Britain so he doesn't know of heroes beyond the northern European lands (plus if I remember correctly she has no access to the Akashic Records like the other Heroi Spirits do). Note how the only Heroes she can succesfully spot are the super famous Greek ones (Alexander the Great conquered all the known world once and Heracles was the most famous greek demi-god) and the irish ones (since Ireland is basically next door to Britain and they even share similar heroic tales).Kirei's smile while healing Kariya was rather disturbing. I suppose he did that to see Kariya fight Tokiomi again (and I assume kill him this time as I don't think Kirei would go that far). Maybe their fight brough some pleasure for Kirei and that's why he remebered Gilgamesh's words. Speaking of Gil, I didn't expect his name to get revealed since Saber finds it out only 10 years later. This still makes sense as it was Rider who figured out Archer's (it's so strange to call him Archer) and Saber still doesn't know that. Jeanne was a nice touch and in the end I kind of felt bad for Caster. :( |
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the_trainman said: OK, just a quick question about the timeline (zero-stay night)... It is known that grail war is repeated every 60 years, so why is only 10 years between fz/fsn wars (except the fact to see what happened to some of the familiar characters)? |
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Topgunuk69 said: Funniest part is that this question was answered in the Stay Night novel but since Heavens Feel is not adapted... *shrug* In fact, a lot of the questions Zero "explains" are just rehashed explanations from Heavens Feel.the_trainman said: OK, just a quick question about the timeline (zero-stay night)... It is known that grail war is repeated every 60 years, so why is only 10 years between fz/fsn wars (except the fact to see what happened to some of the familiar characters)? |
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Leon-Gun said: Lol, Saber is just a dummy, that said, King Arthur never left Britain so he doesn't know of heroes beyond the northern European lands (plus if I remember correctly she has no access to the Akashic Records like the other Heroi Spirits do). Note how the only Heroes she can succesfully spot are the super famous Greek ones (Alexander the Great conquered all the known world once and Heracles was the most famous greek demi-god) and the irish ones (since Ireland is basically next door to Britain and they even share similar heroic tales). Arthur did spend time on the continent, travelling at least as far as Rome. Of course, I speak of Malory's Arthur. I don't know about Urobuchi's. And it's been a long time since I read Malory but that's what I recall. FWIW, I would suspect that educated Britons of her era would have known of the Greeks, but not of heroes such as Gilgamesh. And any of the later heroes such as de Rais would also be unknown. Perhaps she's limited to what her personal Grail War experience offers plus what would be culturally known in her own time. Just speculating. Don't know. |
Mockman said: I don't know which version Nasu chose although the actual reason she seems uninformed in comparison to the other Servants is actually more in line with the terms of how she "became" a Servant. All the others have access to memories from ages far into the past and future (the main reason SN's Archer slips through the cracks is because he technically isn't a Hero in the same sense the others are). As far as I remember Saber's information is limited more or less to what she herself knows. Leon-Gun said: Lol, Saber is just a dummy, that said, King Arthur never left Britain so he doesn't know of heroes beyond the northern European lands (plus if I remember correctly she has no access to the Akashic Records like the other Heroi Spirits do). Note how the only Heroes she can succesfully spot are the super famous Greek ones (Alexander the Great conquered all the known world once and Heracles was the most famous greek demi-god) and the irish ones (since Ireland is basically next door to Britain and they even share similar heroic tales). Arthur did spend time on the continent, travelling at least as far as Rome. Of course, I speak of Malory's Arthur. I don't know about Urobuchi's. And it's been a long time since I read Malory but that's what I recall. FWIW, I would suspect that educated Britons of her era would have known of the Greeks, but not of heroes such as Gilgamesh. And any of the later heroes such as de Rais would also be unknown. Perhaps she's limited to what her personal Grail War experience offers plus what would be culturally known in her own time. Just speculating. Don't know. |
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| Just wonderful. |
| I really give F/Z anime a lot of shit whenever I can, mostly because I just loved the LN so much. But the Excalibur scene in this episode was done fantastically - though, this doesn't really make up for how badly it's treating most of the side characters like Kariya, or even the missing insight into characters like Kiritsugu and Kotomine to some extent. At the very least, had I not known these themes were present in the original, I'd probably jump Fate/Zero up to a 10 after this episode. |
| Pictures for episode 16 |
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| That was very good, animation was very good. Saber's Excalibur was really awesome. Will definitely watch next week. |
I almost never read discussions after I made my post, if you want to reply PM me or post on my profile page. |
| poor Kariya, he will be missed. |
Superdee said: poor Kariya, he will be missed. hes not dead though |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Gamaliel said: Pictures for episode 16 Wow. I definitely wasn't expecting to get a preview on Wednesday. Much obliged; I'm really looking forward to this one. |
| ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Change, change the form of man. Free the might from fleshy mire. Boil the blood in heart of fire. Gone, gone the form of man. Rise the demon, Etrigan! |
Omniknight said: Kariya's wave of insects made him look retarded though. Sending all those insects into a wall of fire, not even trying to go around it... He is letting his emotions, as righteous as they may be, blind him. As a weaker magus, he should have at least tried different things instead of expending all his magic on suiciding his insects into the wall of fire. LOL, Kariya can barely move from the insane pain of the worms eating his internal organs and the prana Berserker is consuming. Did you not see the blood vessels exploding in hisi face? He's not sane anymore. During the big battle royale (last one in episodes 4-5), he was still smart and creatively used the bugs to spy while he sent Berserker to fight. He evaded Kiritsugu that way. The lack of Enkidu flashback really made it lose any impact of why Gilgamesh is interested on Saber. Also, Caster's end is less sad in the Anime. I found his profound sorrow after he recovers his sanity more believable in the novel (by seeing himself in the past, sane next to Jeanne while the King is crowned). TheRealBoyd said: It's also pointed out/implied in the light novels that Gilgamesh likes people that are self-destructive and/or have no sense of self, because people like that remind him of Enkidu, his best (and only) friend from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Enkidu was more than his best friend. He was literally made to "complete" Gilgamesh (his other half) by the gods. That's why he's drawn to people like him, even if he can't never replace him. It's like living knowing you're not whole. Gil likes people who are arrogant in their wishes (so great that surpass their human conditions). Part of his fascination with Saber is because he wants to see her break in that burden. Probably because he can't acknowledge anyone who carries a great ambition without lamentation. Enkidu shed tears but never for his fate as he dies, but for Gilgamesh's fate of loneliness without him. That elevated him as someone so precious that nothing he could collect, no treasure in his vast collection would ever compare to him. Saber's just another treasure to keep. HikaruIzumi said: Amamzing episode. I'm happy Caster didn't get totally non-karmic death like Ryuunosuke, he sounded kind of desperate/sad/shocked, as if he regretted what he did. Could someone who knows Japanese tell me what his last words were? The subs I watched translated his very last word as "I" but in other anime I saw, it was translated mostly differently. I'm wondering about EXACT meaning of what he said, not something edited to make sense. Thanks. Basically: I do find ironic that, out of the Servants in this war, the insane Caster had the most harmless wish: he just wanted to see Jeanne again. Alive. He got his wish in the end. Contrast with Saber, the most righteous, had a wish that could potentially screwed up human history. Lulz. |
ThessApr 19, 2012 2:17 AM
| Well, to be fair Saber's mindset is literally the same one she had at the end of her rule when she had a broken kingdom and lost many knights, she's entitled to such crazy thinking (such as remaking a Camelot without Arthur) when her country's demise happened almost literally yesterday. On the other hand Alexander just single-mindedly wants to conquer and conquer and conquer. He might not be an idiot but his fancies are certainly single-minded (women, fine wine and adventure is all he really cares about). |
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Thess said: Agreed - that's what, for me, made him a "Good Villain".I do find ironic that, out of the Servants in this war, the insane Caster had the most harmless wish: he just wanted to see Jeanne again. Alive. He got his wish in the end. |
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Cratex said: Thess said: Agreed - that's what, for me, made him a "Good Villain".I do find ironic that, out of the Servants in this war, the insane Caster had the most harmless wish: he just wanted to see Jeanne again. Alive. He got his wish in the end. yes its also funny how the people with good intentions get no salvation while the so called "bad guys" gets what they wanted |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Leon-Gun said: Well, to be fair Saber's mindset is literally the same one she had at the end of her rule when she had a broken kingdom and lost many knights, she's entitled to such crazy thinking (such as remaking a Camelot without Arthur) when her country's demise happened almost literally yesterday. On the other hand Alexander just single-mindedly wants to conquer and conquer and conquer. He might not be an idiot but his fancies are certainly single-minded (women, fine wine and adventure is all he really cares about). Uh... you're seriously misunderstanding Alexander's way of conquest and true goal. Both Saber and Rider are incredibly idealistic people (pretty alike actually when all is said and done). They both dreamed of an unattainable utopia (Saber of Avalon, Rider of Oceanus) and wanted to share it with their followers. Saber's Utopia needed to be built on Britain, Rider's needed to be found faraway on the horizon. That's why Saber defended her country, that's why Rider went conquering. They both deeply care about their followers as well. Anyway, both of them are products of their historical contexts. Her model is based on peace and his in prosperity because in their eras, that's what they were supposed to aspire. Also "women"? Alexander is bisexual. There's absolutely nothing wrong with denying oneself sex, food or any passion in life. That's a pretty human need. If Alexander single-handily wanted to 'conquest', he would have let Saber be killed back in episode 5. He doesn't want more sacrifices. That's one of the two things that weaken him in this war (the other being Waver). He's being like Shirou is in the Fifth Grail War. Only he wants to save the Servants, rather than the Masters. Arturia is supposed to be the "king as an ideal." Noble but incomprehensible for she isn't human anymore, after shedding away her humanity to embody an ethereal ideal. Meanwhile, Alexander is supposed to be "the king as a man." How far a man can achieve greatness by doing the opposite: embrace the virtues and flaws from the human condition. They are both setting examples (although different ones) and they are both essentially good people. Also, the two of them find their resolution by bonding with their Master (Rider with Waver in Zero, Saber with Shirou in Fate route). |
ThessApr 19, 2012 10:42 AM
| Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but Rider wants to save Saber by proving her ideals are wrong, but he intends to do that by defeating her to make her see that. After which, you know, she'll die. If the other Servants agree to serve him and join his army, that's fine, but if they don't want to, he'll kill them just like he did to Assassin. He's not out to save them all, either, just Saber. But, like I said, maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you said. |
TheRealBoyd said: *shrug* I have no idea. Alexander isn't really intent on saving anyone. He'll save those that bend knee to him, but he'll kill any who do oppose him. That's how he lived and that's how he will keep on living.Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but Rider wants to save Saber by proving her ideals are wrong, but he intends to do that by defeating her to make her see that. After which, you know, she'll die. If the other Servants agree to serve him and join his army, that's fine, but if they don't want to, he'll kill them just like he did to Assassin. He's not out to save them all, either, just Saber. But, like I said, maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you said. And the women thing, I know he was bisexual (although that was never completely proven mind you, there's actual historians who are skeptical still) but having many women was still a mark of honor in a male-dominated society. As the King he's supposed to be the biggest man. I mean, look at Gilgamesh, he takes pleasure in breaking women and taken them for himself yet we all know he loved Enkidu. They don't have the same set of values we do, we can't really treat them the same way or paint them to be total saints. Alexander isn't a saint, he's just a conqueror who just happened to do more good than bad. |
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| Great episode..i like the 2nd ending better too..foreshadows so much about what's to come |
| "If you don't love anyone, it'll make your life easier. But, I don't want to believe it's useless to love anyone" - Hikari Sakishima |
Sam1198777 said: Great episode..i like the 2nd ending better too..foreshadows so much about what's to come the ending does not forshadow whats to come its the story of kiritsugu and irisviel before the grail war began |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
TheRealBoyd said: Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but Rider wants to save Saber by proving her ideals are wrong, but he intends to do that by defeating her to make her see that. After which, you know, she'll die. Kill her? Nope. It's easy to forget what Rider wants with them and what he calls conquest: He thinks that being a king is a burden to Saber and makes her unhappy enough to wish to rewrite the past. He was fine with her way (see their novel exchange in the first novel) until he found out her wrong wish (it was canonically proved to be a bad wish). That she never had an experience as a human being makes him feel bad about her (Shirou did the same btw). Heck, Saber also thinks she's not worthy to be a king. She acts defensively because she harbors self-doubt about this. I don't agree with him there, but he misunderstood the core of her issues because she kept shielding her wish based on her ideals and path of kingship. He can't stand seeing her pained. On the other hand, Gilgamesh loves that and wants to see her break under the burden of that suffering. He's acting like a protective big brother as default mode. TheRealBoyd said: If the other Servants agree to serve him and join his army, that's fine, but if they don't want to, he'll kill them just like he did to Assassin. He's not out to save them all, either, just Saber. No, he killed Assassin because he was endangering Waver's life. It was clearer in the novels. The episode did not portray him as the threat poor Hassan was supposed to be. They were aiming to kill Waver and they weren't going to back down. Rider specifically broke the battle in episode 5 because he wanted to conquer them (but without humiliation or death). TheRealBoyd said: But, like I said, maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you said. The novel portrays what happens in an average conquest of Alexander (as Nasuverse portrays him aka not real life one). He left his enemies live, returned them everything to them and marched on with his armies as he continued his quest for Oceanus. They joined them by their own accord one by one, left their lands and lives to be with the Conqueror, sharing his dream. That's the flashback Waver saw: proud warriors who left to follow him (sadly anime just show the ocean meh which stole a LOT of the impact of Alexander's drawn). In order words, Rider's power and charisma (the highest a human being can reach) is like those shounen heroes were defeats means eternal friendship. It IS supposed to be a miracle/mystery like how Saber's Excalibur works (genkidama anyone?), don't try to apply logic here. Leon-Gun said: shrug* I have no idea. Alexander isn't really intent on saving anyone. He'll save those that bend knee to him, but he'll kill any who do oppose him. That's how he lived and that's how he will keep on living. See above, refresh your memory of the Rider parts of the novel: He does not want to sacrifice people. He has been the one who has been stopping the fights since he appeared. To be one of his followers is not really 'bend to a knee'. This isn't Gilgamesh who sees people as possessions because he's godsend. To Rider, the king and follower are one. That was the basis of his kingship. That was why Saber shut up immediately after she wrongly misjudged him and put him in the same bag with Gilgamesh. Leon-Gun said: And the women thing, I know he was bisexual (although that was never completely proven mind you, there's actual historians who are skeptical still) but having many women was still a mark of honor in a male-dominated society. As the King he's supposed to be the biggest man. I mean, look at Gilgamesh, he takes pleasure in breaking women and taken them for himself yet we all know he loved Enkidu. They don't have the same set of values we do, we can't really treat them the same way or paint them to be total saints. Alexander isn't a saint, he's just a conqueror who just happened to do more good than bad. Gen said he was bisexual. Argue with him who created him. In fact, most historians paint him as gay only having sex with women because he wanted heirs, so it's just "bisexual" as "homosexual with women on the side." But he's bi in Nasuvere. Comparing him and Gilgamesh makes no sense. Even Saber knows the difference: she despises Gilgamesh as her anathema, but to Rider, she can feel she can talk to. Nobody is painting him as a saint. I said that he embraced the flaws and virtues of humanity as a max. He was a tyrant who believed he could make his people happy (that’s the canon description) and whose treasure was the bond he forged with them, not the treasures or lands or ideals: his relationship with his people. Saber represents a king like an abstract ideal. Rider is a man-king (man as humanity). Gilgamesh is like a god-king. Three different point of views, the best there is. |
ThessApr 20, 2012 4:19 PM
| Oh, I've read the novels. You don't have to describe them to me. Yeah, Rider doesn't want to kill them, but if they're going to oppose him and not join him, he has no choice. Like you said, killing his opponents is his last resort. They didn't join him though, so there you go. The Holy Grail War is a fight to the death, so he has to kill them if they don't join him. It's not like they wouldn't try to kill him. I'm sure Alexander would've preferred for Darius III to just let him conquer Persia instead of losing his soldiers in battle, but that's not how history went, not in the Nasuverse or real life. You seem to be misunderstanding Gilgamesh if you think he and Alexander shouldn't be compared. They're both the pinnacle of the self, the king who lives for his desires. They go about it in different ways, but they're more simliar to each other than Saber. Assuming the Epic of Gilgamesh is canon to Nasuverse in cases where there's no contradiction, Gilgamesh inspired his people just like Alexander did. He was a symbol of greatness just like Alexander was. As the Mesopotamian King, he was literally seen as the pinnacle of humanity by all of his subjects, not just himself. Even if they didn't like him sleeping with all of their brides. Furthermore, Gilgamesh does think people have value, he just hasn't found anybody like that in the modern world. Back when he was alive, sure, as the king if he thinks somebody should be killed, he'll do it-but he wouldn't just kill somebody for shits and giggles. I'm not trying to say Gilgamesh is some pure-hearted hero of justice, mind you. But I think it's important to realize that, we're already past halfway through Zero, you can't call him a villain, can you?. He only does like two or three things that can be even remotely evil in the entirety of Zero. If you want me to list them in case you think I've missed some, here: ...That was kind of long, so if I missed or ignored one of your points, my bad. |
TheRealBoyd said: Yeah, Rider doesn't want to kill them, but if they're going to oppose him and not join him, he has no choice. Like you said, killing his opponents is his last resort. They didn't join him though, so there you go. You know that, but he did not know that. As far as he knew, he could try to convince them through defeat. Defeat does not mean destruction or humiliation to Rider. He is like the perfect Servant for Shirou. While he is not just as idealistic as Shirou but he had the same impediment to actually battle people. Rider is foolishly optimistic sometimes. It is one of his virtues and flaws. TheRealBoyd said: The Holy Grail War is a fight to the death, so he has to kill them if they don't join him. It's not like they wouldn't try to kill him. Not to Rider, he didn’t take it seriously at all. Remember the King’s banquet? He wanted to decide it over discourse rather than bloodspill. TheRealBoyd said: I'm sure Alexander would've preferred for Darius III to just let him conquer Persia instead of losing his soldiers in battle, but that's not how history went, not in the Nasuverse or real life. He does speak of Darius III as his BFF in the novel. TheRealBoyd said: You seem to be misunderstanding Gilgamesh if you think he and Alexander shouldn't be compared. They're both the pinnacle of the self, the king who lives for his desires. They go about it in different ways, but they're more simliar to each other than Saber. Not really. Gilgamesh thinks only of his desires as absolute (there is nothing wrong with this, since he is the god-like one). Alexander, while he regards his desires alike, he makes his desires the desires of his followers. To Alexander, he has to set up an example. Which is what Saber did but in the opposite direction: she made herself desireless. Rider is more a balance between Saber and Gilgamesh. Saber rejected Gilgamesh’s posture and mistook Rider as self-centered as he was, however she was proved wrong (with his Noble Phantasm). In Rider’s philosophy, king and follower are one (king just leads them as the sum of their desires). In Gilgamesh king is above follower. In Saber, the king must serve the follower. Rider’s pov only seems similar to Gilgamesh’s until he fully explains himself. It was purposefully misleading so Saber would shout them both heretics and then feel awfully jelly because Rider accomplished what she wanted to do. TheRealBoyd said: Assuming the Epic of Gilgamesh is canon to Nasuverse in cases where there's no contradiction, Gilgamesh inspired his people just like Alexander did. He was a symbol of greatness just like Alexander was. As the Mesopotamian King, he was literally seen as the pinnacle of humanity by all of his subjects, not just himself. Even if they didn't like him sleeping with all of their brides. I would say that is roughly canon in some bits (Gilgamesh gave the immortality to the snake without regard which contradicts the epic). I think Gilgamesh in Nasuverse ruled the world rather than just Uruk (the world was ‘united’ wasn’t it?). He was a great king for his era: absolute and godly. He is not, though, human or ideal as Rider and Saber are. In any case, whether he was inspiring or not, his path of kingship (represented by his noble phantasm) is not putting emphasis on the bonds of his followers. It puts emphasis on his treasures. I do think Saber cared for her people too, but she prioritized her ideals over the bonds with them, so Excalibur is a pure eternal sum of ideals. Rider does care about riches and ideals, but his priority is the bonding and relationships. None of them are lesser than the other. TheRealBoyd said: Furthermore, Gilgamesh does think people have value, he just hasn't found anybody like that in the modern world. Back when he was alive, sure, as the king if he thinks somebody should be killed, he'll do it-but he wouldn't just kill somebody for shits and giggles. I wouldn’t say he hasn’t found anyone of value: he is pretty fine with Tokiomi and Kotomine as ‘subjects’ (well, mostly just Kirei). TheRealBoyd said: I'm not trying to say Gilgamesh is some pure-hearted hero of justice, mind you. But I think it's important to realize that, we're already past halfway through Zero, you can't call him a villain, can you?. He only does like two or three things that can be even remotely evil in the entirety of Zero. I am not calling him a villain. I’m one of the few fans who isn’t challenging his chaotic good alignment and has defended him in the past. He isn't particularly pleasant and nice to most people (Kotomine is a big exception), but he isn't evil. Gilles was a pleasant guy with his Master, but he's evil. |
ThessApr 21, 2012 12:50 PM
Mockman said: Oh, and I liked Sabre's screaming of her sword's name. I wondered how the seiyuu would pull that off. While she started slipping on the first syllable, she nailed it on the rest of the name. Leon-Gun said: That makes sense. Previously, I've only seen FSN. After watching it, I didn't really have any interest in any of the other works.Nah, she's had what, 3-4 animation projects and 1 Visual Novel of practice by now? (Fate/Stay Night anime, Fate/Stay Night Realta Nua, Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works, Carnival Phantasm and now Fate/Zero; original F/SN VN and Hollow Ataraxia don't count because they don't have Voice Acting). I just watched the episode again. I'm looking forward to a BD version at some point in the future. I think it will look great. But regarding Sabre, I think what would have made this perfect would have been if the only word she spoke throughout the episode was the name of her sword. Everything else she said, or thought during the episode was superfluous. Her nod when answering Lancer's question was exactly enough. And closing the episode with her turning to face the camera after Archer informed us of his decision, but saying nothing was again the best response. And when it came to preparing the way for her attack, having Irisviel, with her wondrous voice, do the explaining again helped keep Sabre singularly focused on the task at hand. And in the context of the discussion of kings, pure and ideal. Of course, Irisviel's voice is pure candy to listen to. While I haven't heard Ohara Sayaka in many roles, she's done a few that I've enjoyed, such as Raquel Casull in one of the first anime I watched, Son Rui in Nodame, Nikari in Usagi Drop. With a lot of shows, including really bad ones, I often see comments about an all-star cast of seiyuu. But crappy anime waste good seiyuu and won't be saved by the cast. To its credit, this show contains a lot of great performances. |
MockmanApr 21, 2012 1:10 PM
Thess said: Okay, misunderstanding on my part then: since Saber would never give in even after defeat, she would die. That's what I meant, more or less.You know that, but he did not know that. As far as he knew, he could try to convince them through defeat. Defeat does not mean destruction or humiliation to Rider. He is like the perfect Servant for Shirou. While he is not just as idealistic as Shirou but he had the same impediment to actually battle people. Rider is foolishly optimistic sometimes. It is one of his virtues and flaws. Thess said: Yeah, okay, you're right. He would kill them if they didn't give in after defeat, though.Not to Rider, he didn’t take it seriously at all. Remember the King’s banquet? He wanted to decide it over discourse rather than bloodspill. Thess said: Okay, thinking about it that way, that makes sense. I still think Gilgamesh is a fair comparison to Rider though, given that, when it's all said and done, they led their people and their people were happy for it (after Enkidu in Gilgamesh's case, anyway), regardless of their motivations for it. (While it was a criticism of Saber that she protected, but didn't lead, wasn't it?)Rider is more a balance between Saber and Gilgamesh. Thess said: Okay, you've got a point there.I would say that is roughly canon in some bits (Gilgamesh gave the immortality to the snake without regard which contradicts the epic). I think Gilgamesh in Nasuverse ruled the world rather than just Uruk (the world was ‘united’ wasn’t it?). He was a great king for his era: absolute and godly. He is not, though, human or ideal as Rider and Saber are. In any case, whether he was inspiring or not, his path of kingship (represented by his noble phantasm) is not putting emphasis on the bonds of his followers. It puts emphasis on his treasures. I do think Saber cared for her people too, but she prioritized her ideals over the bonds with them, so Excalibur is a pure eternal sum of ideals. Rider does care about riches and ideals, but his priority is the bonding and relationships. None of them are lesser than the other. I think the snake thing is just him talking tough or having gotten over it, though. His bio in the F/SN visual novel mentions that the snake took it against his will, and it's not above Gilgamesh's ego to try and save face. Thess said: True, though the majority doesn't (or hasn't, since I guess he hasn't even been here a week yet) impressed him.I wouldn’t say he hasn’t found anyone of value: he is pretty fine with Tokiomi and Kotomine as ‘subjects’ (well, mostly just Kirei). Thess said: Hm, I just inferred as such by your comments saying Saber was a better comparison to Rider. Right, my mistake then.I am not calling him a villain. I’m one of the few fans who isn’t challenging his chaotic good alignment and has defended him in the past. He isn't particularly pleasant and nice to most people (Kotomine is a big exception), but he isn't evil. Gilles was a pleasant guy with his Master, but he's evil. |
| Gilgamesh was half-mad by the time you get to talk to him in Fate/STay Night. In fact, there were strong indications the Grail had indeed corrupted him, just not to the degree of making him bend to it's will. So I see his "I gave immortality to the Snake" comment just tough talk from a slightly mad God-King. Indeed, his Bio quite clearly says the snake stole it. And even while a little mad Gilgamesh's goal in Fate/Stay Night is very clear. He wishes to improve the world. He goes about it in a very extreme way but he thinks the world has gone soft and he wants to toughen up his servants so that they may be worthy of living productive lives rather than wasting away. Gilgamesh talks tough but in the end he's a King that protects and cares for his people, enough that he wants them to be stronger and not waste their lives. The fact that he's considered a villain at all has to do with the fact his values (meaning the values of people from an ancient time) are just too at odds with modern values. |
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TheRealBoyd said: Okay, misunderstanding on my part then: since Saber would never give in even after defeat, she would die. That's what I meant, more or less. It is a possibility. Another one is that, in an AU context where they could talk about things, Saber and Rider both realized their mistakes and that the Grail is tainted. Saber did give in in Fate and forsook her wish. But the story focused on other conflicts. TheRealBoyd said: Yeah, okay, you're right. He would kill them if they didn't give in after defeat, though. Again. That really depends of the circumstances? Rider has no idea that Servants need to die or that there is a time limit. The only reasons why he attacked Caster was because he stepped over the line with his crimes and Assassin was a real danger for Waver. He is very fond of Saber and Lancer, on the other hand. Any disagreement he had with Arturia is because he was sad on her behalf rather than trying to humiliate her. Unlike Saber, he is in no urgent hurry to battle. He basically spends most of the war shopping with Waver, watching TV and reading. TheRealBoyd said: Okay, thinking about it that way, that makes sense. I still think Gilgamesh is a fair comparison to Rider though, given that, when it's all said and done, they led their people and their people were happy for it (after Enkidu in Gilgamesh's case, anyway), regardless of their motivations for it. (While it was a criticism of Saber that she protected, but didn't lead, wasn't it?). I think she led too, but on her own way. Anyway, the kings have their different priorities and also they were born in different historical contexts. Can you imagine Saber in Alexander’s times as a successful leader? Me neither. Ditto for those two swapping places. Gilgamesh ruled a world that was united and needed an absolute ruler. Thus, he was the best for it. Alexander ruled in a time where glory and fate was found in the horizon. To prosper, it meant to go on conquering. Arturia in a time where peace and stability were prized; so she had to stand strong to protect her country from invasions. I like the three of them. Their postures really show in their alignments. The three are classified as "Good." Gilgamesh is the Chaotic flavor, Rider the Neutral one, while Saber is the Lawful one. TheRealBoyd said: True, though the majority doesn't (or hasn't, since I guess he hasn't even been here a week yet) impressed him. He gave a chance to Rider and Saber to submit to him (in the Banquet of the Kings). He is kind to the subjects he sees worthy (Kotomine is an example). TheRealBoyd said: Ham, I just inferred as such by your comments saying Saber was a better comparison to Rider. Right, my mistake then. I meant that Saber and Rider were more similar in the beginnings. Gilgamesh is more of an absolute existence that is a little unfathomable, so he did not need to try to set an example. He already was godsend one, you know? While Rider and Saber were both idealistic youths who dreamed so much about a certain utopia and tried to lead by example. They went the opposite ways to try and achieve this. |
ThessApr 21, 2012 7:12 PM
| Another amazing ep, and the bastard Caster is finally dead, good riddance! Epic battles between Archer vs. Berserker vs. Saber vs. Caster Wonder what Kirei did with the bug guy... |
| F/Z unfortunately after this episode is a solid mediocre series which is really, really sad after all the hype you read about it. Too much talking, too much exposition, pacing issues (too slow), and not enough action or serious plot. Ughh, I'm thinking the rest of story are gonna be a cliche with the monster master/servants of the week episodes. It's got decent visuals but it's pretty obvious and lacking everywhere else. **Yawnn** I gave season 1 more than one chance and these two episode have convinced me to drop it. 6/10 for season 2, 5/10 for season 1. |
Mika_Inamori said: F/Z unfortunately after this episode is a solid mediocre series which is really, really sad after all the hype you read about it. Too much talking, too much exposition, pacing issues (too slow), and not enough action or serious plot. Ughh, I'm thinking the rest of story are gonna be a cliche with the monster master/servants of the week episodes. It's got decent visuals but it's pretty obvious and lacking everywhere else. **Yawnn** I gave season 1 more than one chance and these two episode have convinced me to drop it. 6/10 for season 2, 5/10 for season 1. Which is funny cause it's right after this episode where you learn exactly how Urobutcher got his nickname, and shit really hit the fans. |
Mika_Inamori said: F/Z unfortunately after this episode is a solid mediocre series which is really, really sad after all the hype you read about it. Too much talking, too much exposition, pacing issues (too slow), and not enough action or serious plot. Ughh, I'm thinking the rest of story are gonna be a cliche with the monster master/servants of the week episodes. It's got decent visuals but it's pretty obvious and lacking everywhere else. **Yawnn** I gave season 1 more than one chance and these two episode have convinced me to drop it. 6/10 for season 2, 5/10 for season 1. maybe it is because the focus of fate zero is not the action? because character development is more important than hurr durr rasengan? and maybe it is because fate zero is designed to be a stand alone series so it requires exposition? |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Knil said: Saw it! It was amazing!! Gen Urobuchi, Atsuhiro Iwakami, and Katsuhi Ota, the creator, producer, and editor-in-chief of Fate/Zero were all there watching it with us and seeing it themselves for the first time. It was so cool to hear them complimenting us afterwards on how straightforward we were in our enthusiasm for the show during the screening. Every one of the dozens of epic or well-scripted moments of the show immediately drew cheers and applause, which is something we're pretty much used to as a western audience. It was their first time visiting America as a group, and said they would never have been able to get that type of vocal reaction out of a japanese audience - that it was their first time experiencing it for their show. That was just so cool in my opinion. :) It never occurred to me that we at Sakura-con, in being incredibly privileged to meet these important people and in trying to get the most out the opportunity to interact with them and enjoy the exclusive the content they brought us at the con, that we might also be giving them an unforgettable, first-time experience. Rather than the fans just trying to extract as much as we could out of our guests, the whole thing ended up being an incredible, moving experience for both sides. Anyway, it was an unforgettable event and weekend in general - I could not have asked for a better experience for my first convention. Not to ghost bump or anything, but this is exactly how I felt during the premiere of Trigun: Badlands Rumble at Anime Expo a few years ago. 2000+ anime fans on a nostalgia trip. Nothing quite like that. You need to savor events like that. |
 |
| Man Excaliblast in all of it's glory. |
| So pretty when Excalibur started to glow and particles of light started appearing. Archer and Rider awesome as always. |
| EXCALIBURRRRRRRRR, EXCALIBURRRRRRRRR, from the United King I'm looking for him |
ichigo03 said: SO MANY PRETTY COLORS!!!! I think it's ridiculous to give this series such a high mark. It may be entertaining and very good animation wise, but I don't think the story is really that great. Seeing that it came from someone who puts Bleach as his most favourite anime, I find this quite insulting. I'm sure most people will say "Bleach storyline is horrible". Other than that, lol @how I'm reviving this thread =/ Most favourite and epic episode of the Fate/Zero series, that epic Excalibur! =D |
 "Have you ever encounter a wild beast that guarantees to never bite anyone?" ~ Roronoa Zoro |
Deathraver said: Seeing that it came from someone who puts Bleach as his most favourite anime, I find this quite insulting. I'm sure most people will say "Bleach storyline is horrible". Other than that, lol @how I'm reviving this thread =/ Most favourite and epic episode of the Fate/Zero series, that epic Excalibur! =D Bleach,K-on,Highschool of the Dead.I see why FZ sucks...not FALSE.Ep 23 and Ea were the most epic parts of FZ. |
ssjokgJun 27, 2012 2:14 AM
ssjokg said: Deathraver said: Seeing that it came from someone who puts Bleach as his most favourite anime, I find this quite insulting. I'm sure most people will say "Bleach storyline is horrible". Other than that, lol @how I'm reviving this thread =/ Most favourite and epic episode of the Fate/Zero series, that epic Excalibur! =D Bleach,K-on,Highschool of the Dead.I see why FZ sucks...not FALSE.Ep 23 and Ea were the most epic parts of FZ. But but but, too overpowering and I dont like the shape of Ea xP |
"Have you ever encounter a wild beast that guarantees to never bite anyone?" ~ Roronoa Zoro |
Deathraver said: ssjokg said: Deathraver said: Seeing that it came from someone who puts Bleach as his most favourite anime, I find this quite insulting. I'm sure most people will say "Bleach storyline is horrible". Other than that, lol @how I'm reviving this thread =/ Most favourite and epic episode of the Fate/Zero series, that epic Excalibur! =D Bleach,K-on,Highschool of the Dead.I see why FZ sucks...not FALSE.Ep 23 and Ea were the most epic parts of FZ. But but but, too overpowering and I dont like the shape of Ea xP Come on it almost resembles a drill.Which |
ssjokgJun 27, 2012 11:19 AM
| That thing they did with Berserk fight in these episodes was just out of this world! And finally Caster is out of the game, about time! I wonder what is it that the ex-assassin's master has in mind. |
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