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| @traed Did you quoted me wrong in post? https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2101809&msgid=69421434&show=150#msg69421434 The text you actually replied was made by @Fifitamboril. |
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FreezePeach said: rvdboom said: I stand corrected, "nothing happened" is indeed not an option anymore.But I agree about your analysis about the writer tempting us to make the wrong conclusion. rvdboom said: FreezePeach said: A bit difficult to have this conversation on an Anime thread since it's discussing parts of the manga which were not adapted yet. :-)But I agree about your analysis about the writer tempting us to make the wrong conclusion.I stand corrected, "nothing happened" is indeed not an option anymore. But I'm not disregarding your point of view completely, it has merits and the true story might be a mix of both. Beware, hide future developments with Spoiler tags. The author intentionally framed everything there with multiple dangling questions with answers that everyone has to come up with themselves. Some theories sound more plausible then others but it's still all reading between the lines or based on studies of rape survivors, common coping patterns, attachement pattern theory, some domestic abuse, some form of stockholm syndrome, fight or flight instincts, idendity crisis and the list goes on and on. That arc was absolute whiplash and that was for sure intended. The reader was supposed to be distraught just as the characters where. The reader was supposed to be confused, disgusted, horrified and so on because the characters where. The reader was denied catharsis through violent means (beating robin to death) or through the means of answers (to many to count) because the characters where. It's a great sequence where the emotions of the characters mirror the ones of the reader (to a degree) This whole arc has been going through my head for a while now and I've went through several stages of understanding but I also began at pure outrage since it was so different from how this is usually presented in media. I do understand the people that feel... a sense of betrayal and I've looped back to the question "Why did she go in for the kiss" more times then I wan't to admit. Her mind and sense of identity was already on the brink at that point and with him being almost naked, making his intentions clear and the handcuffs she knew what was going to happen. But he was still what she aspired to be, letting this go so quickly is impossible. She wanted his aknowledgment even before she was bodyswapped and he knew exactly that. Which is why he used the softer approach of being gentle, soft, whispering her original name. At that moment she knew that he will take her anyways but if she gave in they would at least have an emotional bond. She would be aknowledged as a person, as Haruki even. And that is why she went for the Kiss. It was all bait for him. He did it because he knew this would push her and he knew that the guilt that this would trigger would be enough to break her resolve for good. Which is why he said No and pushed her face to towards the mirror. He rejected her an emotional level as well and reduced her to her mere body. The stuff you reference in Chapter 39 is a callback to just that. She feels disgusted with herself for being baited like that and falling for it. The realization how extremely fragile she was is quite traumatic. This also begs the uncomfortable question of: If he hadn't been such a rapist fuck... would she have given in freely? The Helm arc I think the Jacket stays because some parts stay with you no matter how bad things've gotten. She will get rid of it eventually. |
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| Best show of the season. 10/10 Crazy what was going on in that room. |
| Do Maru and Kiruko get together in the manga or not yet? If they do I might read it |
Arkaniet said: Yes, this also my opinion on this arc.That arc was absolute whiplash and that was for sure intended. The reader was supposed to be distraught just as the characters where. The reader was supposed to be confused, disgusted, horrified and so on because the characters where. The reader was denied catharsis through violent means (beating robin to death) or through the means of answers (to many to count) because the characters where. It's a great sequence where the emotions of the characters mirror the ones of the reader (to a degree) What I find interesting is that it actually triggers a lot of intesresting discussions about rape and its responses. That makes it in my opinion a much more interesting scene than other such ones in other mangas. I think the Jacket stays because some parts stay with you no matter how bad things've gotten. She will get rid of it eventually. The thing is that even if this jacket was indeed given by Robin; it's also the one she wore since she has met Maru and as such is related to all memories with him. So I don't think it's so easy for her to give it away. |
| The scene of Mimihime looking at the sky for the first time and reaching for it was one of the most beautiful and meaningful scene in the manga. In the anime, it was completely overshadowed by the rape incident. Nobody talked about Mimihime, nobody even connected the dots while watching it, since the scene was mixed with the other thing... This sums up the whole season. The timing of that rape incident ruined the show's momentum and will probably prevent Heavenly Delusion's popularity to blow up. It distracted everybody from the whole beautiful story and mystery, which is a bad way to end a season. I don't have a problem with depicting rape in a post-apocalyptic world, but the timing was weird and distasteful. This is the kind of incident you put earlier in the season, right in the middle, so people can move on from this and focus on the story again, especially given the fact that the story only gets better after that in the manga. Episodes 12 and 13 are not bad and would have been excellent in mid season, but it was such a terrible idea to leave the audience with that rape trauma context. They had room to make an impactful season ending in so many other ways with all the timelines, and decided to go full controversy. Even the scene of Mimihime reaching the sky, outside of the outside, would have been a perfect season ending and would have cemented Heavenly Delusion's status as anime of the year. I'm mad because: 1- It probably ruined the chances for a season 2 2- 90% of discussions are only about that rape incident. While this anime/manga offered so much more than that... Still a 9/10 anime, because I know what happens next, but I wouldn't be mad if anime-only's rate it low or lost interest, because you don't do cliffhangers with rape trauma. |
Radical_OrionJun 25, 2023 7:53 AM
rvdboom said: Yes, this also my opinion on this arc. What I find interesting is that it actually triggers a lot of intesresting discussions about rape and its responses. That makes it in my opinion a much more interesting scene than other such ones in other mangas. Very well put yes. As uncomfortable as the journey was to reach the ideas that I've presented was it was a worthwhile one and I feel like I've gained a much wider understanding of the subject. Even realizing plenty of things about myself and what things trigger certain anxieties and such. I know this reads... a bit broad and grand. Hmmmm for example. I've looped back to always asking why she went for the kiss. And I wondered why my brain did that. It was irrational and I could rationally explain why it happened. But we're irrational creatures with layers of rationality to make the irrational seem rational. But sometimes things just easily bypass that and this thing apparently was such a thing for me. So yeah quite the eyeopening experience. rvdboom said: The thing is that even if this jacket was indeed given by Robin; it's also the one she wore since she has met Maru and as such is related to all memories with him. So I don't think it's so easy for her to give it away. I see what you mean hmmm... I feel like she holds onto the jacked because she has to keep the bodyguard persona going until they reach their destination. Once that's done or she develops past that (which is what I hope) she can let go. |
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| S2 not coming out anytime soon, how am I going to stop myself from reading the manga? |
Aversa said: My bigger problem with it is that media doesn't properly handle the revenge for rape. If not castrated at least he needed to be kicked in the balls enough times he wouldn't be able to walk or use it again. Don't just punch him in the face. TARGET THE BODY PART THAT DID THE RAPING!gawed said: Trauma affects everyone differently.a great anime and no season 2 immediate announcement :( I hate it when that happens. this one deserves several seasons indeed. now my only gripe with this final series of events: it's almost insulting to sexual abuse victims everywhere that something so dense and serious is treated here in a "oh well 10 mins after I'm ok and won't be depressed" kinda way. no trauma no PTSD, just "well, got raped such is life." makes it feel as if the entire event was just gratuitous sex violence and cheap shock with no real consecuence to the plot. maybe in season 2/next chapters it could turn out that he has PTSD or some sort of sequel but so far it seems like it will be treated like just another quick obstacle in our journey. but oh well, asides from that this was a great feast for the season. Some learn to live with it others show no sign of it at all but will have it affecting them in a later point in live while others have problems from the start and will never get over it. Things like this have a really big impact on live and that applies for any major trauma, my guess it that even those that learn to live with it will probably carry some form of hatred towards the one that caused it. I'm so mad. Robin didn't get punished nearly enough |
Radical_Orion said: I understand what you mean and it has merits. What you say about Mimimhime's scene being overshadowed is quite true.I'm mad because: 1- It probably ruined the chances for a season 2 2- 90% of discussions are only about that rape incident. While this anime/manga offered so much more than that... I think it was probably difficult to handle this, they didn't have much choice in where this scene appears withing the story, it's dictated by the manga after all. At least, it brings some closure for Kiruko and allows to move to the rest of the story in a second season. I don't think it ruins a chance for season 2. Most of the comments are still pretty good for the overall season and I have found the discussions on the episode 12 to be more interesting than flame wars. The way they ended the show is a clear indication that they expect to do a second one. For the second point, I'm optimistic. Let's give some time for this rape controversy to rest, people will start talking about the other great moments of the last episodes. |
Arkaniet said: Mmm, I had not seen this topic through that angle. I think you're right, there certainly is this component too, like this is her bodyguard uniform and she will keep it as long as a personal pride is tied to this activity.I feel like she holds onto the jacked because she has to keep the bodyguard persona going until they reach their destination. Once that's done or she develops past that (which is what I hope) she can let go. |
Mcfeeley said: I didn’t read the manga. Pieces fell into place very quickly once I considered the two stories aren’t happening simultaneously. The Anime did a great job of shifting some sections around to make some aspects of the mistery less obtuse. It's fantastic on a rewatch/reread. There's sooo much foreshadowing! It's amazing! Radical_Orion said: 1- It probably ruined the chances for a season 2 2- 90% of discussions are only about that rape incident. While this anime/manga offered so much more than that... Ishiguro-Sensei said to support Season 1 when we can so we may get a season two in the future. I agree that the rape is very dominant and it overshadows a lot of the discours but I stand by that being by design. I've written some comments about it a bit further up if anyone cares. rvdboom said: What you say about Mimimhime's scene being overshadowed is quite true. These scenes happen after the robin arc is concluded in the manga but they wanted to have both stories end on a somewhat conclusive note or cliffhanger so they moved it into the robin arc. It is also fair to assume that they wanted to... break the robin arc up a little to give some room to breath. Reading it all in one go was a lot to stomach so that may have played a part there as well. |
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| I was hoping for a more definite ending, but it seems the continuation is in order. Some of the mystery got resolved and a nice new chapter for Maru and Kiruko opens, as well as for other kids (but we kind of know how they end up, if only a little). If we ever get season 2 I might adjust the score in perspective for the whole story, but so far it was good, really good. 8/10 |
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| Yep. As expected, the whole rape/NTR stuff from last episode was purely for shock value given that Kiruko is now feeling fresh like a lettuce despite having being raped for one day and two nights. Oh, no biggie~ And onto the next adventure we go~ *happy ED song starts playing* Incomplete finale. Didn't really like it since it left a lot of plot points unanswered and I'm not entirely sure if this adaptation will be popular enough to receive a sequel. Not gonna lie, it was indeed a really awkward place to end the season and makes you wonder why this adaptation wasn't planned as a split-cour project from the get go. Anyways, solid series overall. Leaving author's notorious horniness aside, the mystery aspect was truly engaging to follow and direction was among the best ones I have seen in the year so far. 7/10 - Episode 13 and some people NOW realize Shiro and Mimihime were Dr. Usami and his mutilated patient smh. I just can't. |
rvdboom said: Radical_Orion said: I understand what you mean and it has merits. What you say about Mimimhime's scene being overshadowed is quite true.I'm mad because: 1- It probably ruined the chances for a season 2 2- 90% of discussions are only about that rape incident. While this anime/manga offered so much more than that... I think it was probably difficult to handle this, they didn't have much choice in where this scene appears withing the story, it's dictated by the manga after all. I don't think Shiro and Mimihime's scene was overshadowed. First because it wasn't that big a revelation, and second because of contrast. |
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| Hmm not a bad ending but also nothing special Although I'm a bit interested about what's gonna happen next, so if there is a new season I welcome it |
| While I thought this show started very strong and was very engaging at first, it kind of lost me in the last four episodes as the obvious became clear: that, in the grand scheme of things, we wouldn't get much closer to finding out the truth and even less close to Maru and Kiruko reaching Heaven. As the show progressed, it became more and more obvious that the show was just stacking mysteries atop more mysteries and being intentionally obtuse with pretty much everything to make things even more confusing than they needed to be. All we really know is that the stuff in "Heaven" that we were shown took place in the past and that it's implied that the escaped children became the Hiruko plaguing the world, whereas it initially seemed as if they were taking place simultaneously and that Tokio was Maru's target. And that's... not a lot for thirteen episodes, and even less so as I expect there's little prospect of a season 2 anytime soon. So, all in all, a lot of this show didn't really matter at all and was just being obtuse to pretend it's smarter than it is: the Juichi stuff was particularly pointless overall and I would have missed nothing of real significance if I skipped those episodes (and I'd also miss the bizarre misstep that was episode 10's random, bad change of artstyle). Then we have stuff like that one teenager trying to coerce Maru into sex and Robin's rape of Kiruko, both of which felt like they were only included for shock value rather than because they added anything to the story or character arcs. The production values were impressive throughout and the worldbuilding was interesting if a little unfocused. There's clearly great potential here if a bit more focused and less obtuse, but it sorely needs a continuation to answer the many, many unresolved threads this season has left. I really hope that does happen, but my gut feeling is that this is going to be a one-off in anime form and us anime-onlies are just going to have to accept that we're never going to get to the bottom of everything. 7/10 |
| My 232nd completed series chronologically. For the record, I extended it a 7/10 rating. |
PaninaManina said: @traed Did you quoted me wrong in post? https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2101809&msgid=69421434&show=150#msg69421434 The text you actually replied was made by @Fifitamboril. Yeah my bad. I think i accidentally quoted you quoting them then tried to edit you out but got the wrong person. |
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| It irked me how they downplayed the rape. She was basically back to being normal (on the surface at least) within a day which is unheard of amongst actual rape victims |
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Radical_Orion said: It's not uncommon for major events, including negative ones, to be placed toward the tail end of a season or even in the season finale episode itself. The scene of Mimihime looking at the sky for the first time and reaching for it was one of the most beautiful and meaningful scene in the manga. In the anime, it was completely overshadowed by the rape incident. Nobody talked about Mimihime, nobody even connected the dots while watching it, since the scene was mixed with the other thing... This sums up the whole season. The timing of that rape incident ruined the show's momentum and will probably prevent Heavenly Delusion's popularity to blow up. It distracted everybody from the whole beautiful story and mystery, which is a bad way to end a season. I don't have a problem with depicting rape in a post-apocalyptic world, but the timing was weird and distasteful. This is the kind of incident you put earlier in the season, right in the middle, so people can move on from this and focus on the story again, especially given the fact that the story only gets better after that in the manga. Episodes 12 and 13 are not bad and would have been excellent in mid season, but it was such a terrible idea to leave the audience with that rape trauma context. They had room to make an impactful season ending in so many other ways with all the timelines, and decided to go full controversy. Even the scene of Mimihime reaching the sky, outside of the outside, would have been a perfect season ending and would have cemented Heavenly Delusion's status as anime of the year. I'm mad because: 1- It probably ruined the chances for a season 2 2- 90% of discussions are only about that rape incident. While this anime/manga offered so much more than that... Still a 9/10 anime, because I know what happens next, but I wouldn't be mad if anime-only's rate it low or lost interest, because you don't do cliffhangers with rape trauma. |
Ne0th said: They don't downplay the rape. The author just decided to have his character react using some of the responses described here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_trauma_syndromeIt irked me how they downplayed the rape. She was basically back to being normal (on the surface at least) within a day which is unheard of amongst actual rape victims Meaning a mix of minimization and suppression responses in the Outward adjustment stage. After a shock/disbelief response during the rape itself and until Maru arrives. If you read the manga or when the second season will arrive, you'll be able to find many of the described responses in the above article as part of her behaviour. |
Ne0th said: It irked me how they downplayed the rape. She was basically back to being normal (on the surface at least) within a day which is unheard of amongst actual rape victims Kuriko wasn't back to normal. There was clear expression of distress over self image and identity that was worsened by what took place. |
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| still not sure what to think about these past 2 episodes. The humour was bad, but the journey was very fun. 6/10 |
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| Average episode 5/10 and overall and run-of-the-mill wannnabe mysterious anime, nothing special, 5.5/10 for the show. |
| The whole season I was waiting for how Kiruko and Maru will meet those children in the facility but it looks like we need season 2 to see that. I hope we get an announcement for that soon. Just like Kiruko I was really looking forward for her to meet Robin but didn't expect him to be such a trash. Those flashbacks that Kiruko saw, I'm guessing Robin used to do those shit to her even before that. Now that leaves the doctor who did the brain transplant. I wonder if he's alive. What was that in that room? The girl looked similar to Kiruko when she had black hair. That could probably be the reason why Robin locked her up like that. But why was she connection to a man-eater? It seems like all the other senseis in the facility are probably good people except for that old hag. I hope she dies. I'm curious about that ending. Where and how did they find that boat? And they were arriving to what looked like an active city. We are left with lots of questions. I hope we get a sequel soon. 8/10 |
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