Fate/Apocrypha Episode 16 Discussion

LawfulEngineer said:



Ruler acts as a neutral person and thus would not use a command seal to prevent Jack from killing a master. Thats just how the holy grail wars work. Now if jack was like, doing NOTHING but killing people outside of the war and in large quantities, then yes Ruler would have to step in and put her down or take her out

neku963 said:


Lol

It's kinda funny.



I believe that the grail is only an unlimited source of mana, not a literal wish machine, if I'm not mistaken. (At least, those were Gil-kun's words, please correct me if I'm wrong)

Friddan said:
This gets more and more bullshit, it's funny to watch. Isn't Ruler's only job to stop unethical methods? Such as killing innocents?
How are mages helping one faction or another innocent? Why does Ruler want to stop a "legit" (lol, this is questionable bullshit too) participant in the Grail War from joining in? Why is the smoke thingie completely deadly for homonculi, but others seem unaffected?
Caules' logic was full of big jumps without anything to tell us how he reached these conclusions. This wouldn't be a problem if he was kinda smart, because we could just say "yeah, he is smart". But that's not the case. In the scene with the whole death experience thingie he clearly needed time to think what those words meant.
Ruler was as irritating as ever in this episode too. She just doesn't seem to know her boundaries, because yes, even this "ruler" thingie has boundaries.
She wants to stop others from fulfilling their wishes, because she doesn't like them? If Shirou wants to win the grail, wins it and as a result humanity disappears or whatever, then that fine. No ruler appeared in Zero where basically the same kind of "salvation" would've happened.
Also let's not talk about the guy at the beginning not being able to decide whether he wants to die or not.
At least it's funny in some ways. I have a feeling even Pupa had a more refined story at this point.

Pepeh said:
It was not said in the episode, but those "innocent" people who were killed by Jack were actually thugs and such and the rest are mages like the guard guy, who have some valuable information.

If with "legit" participant you are referring to Sieg, I think I have an explanation to that too. I'm gonna use some random guy's comment, so credits go to him.

"In spiritual possessions such as with Jeanne and Laeticia it tends to be that a fraction of the personality is the HS and another fraction is the body owner(so like 7/10 is the HS and 3/10 is the body owner and vice versa). In the case of Apo Jeanne, Jeanne is, obviously, mostly in control, but her actions and feelings do tend to get influenced by Laeticia’s. The two of them look similar(and their ‘natures’ are said to be similar) but their personalities are different. At this point, Laeticia’s pretty much fallen for Sieg and admires him for his bravery and all that jazz, but Jeanne…urr, not so much. He’s more comparable to a resilient puppy who keeps on sticking his head into things she doesn’t want him to(, but as Jeanne’s own feelings for him are rather neutral, it’s pretty easy for Laeticia’s to surface and take over, which is kinda what’s happening here."

And so basically, Laeticia doesn't want Sieg to participate in the war because she's afraid of him getting hurt/killed? Guess so.

Amakusa's wish and that of Ruler are quite the same. However, Amakusa is not a servant summoned in this Grail War. That's why him participating is against the rules. If only Ruler was a bit more selfish, she'd have actually helped Amakusa fulfill his wish, and with that it's a win-win situation for them.

But that makes me think of Gilgamesh and how he participated in both the Grail in Zero and then in Fate/stay night.

About Caules, I'm again going to use that random guy's comment.

"The bit with Caules going insane is a ritual known as ‘Residual Thought Playback’ - that part is pretty obvious and easy to understand, but the reasoning behind it and the conclusion gained from it wasn’t explained so clearly. When Caules relives Mr Dickel(the dead man)’s memories, he finds that Jack is torturing him for some sort of information concerning the castle security(which is very strong and difficult for low-level Servants for her to get through). The bits which have the sigils on the buildings shown were foundations of the Yggdmillenia bounded field(a type of boundary magecraft which is often used for protection or an alarm against intruders in a set area). As Jack knew where the sigils were, she could destroy the foundations of the field and therefore get in. Caules couldn’t see whether or not Mr Dickel gave out the info, but he connected the dots using Dickel’s papers, which say that he is a magus related to castle security and therefore knows about the weaknesses in the security. Caules connected the dots and went immediately to contacting Fiore."

The random guy's username is Mila. You can find his comments after every episode in Kissanime. They're quite useful.

Friddan said:


We know for a fact that Laeticia is pious to a serious extent. This is shown when she is praying at night just before Jeanne comes to her. As such, her falling for a pseudo-human is hardly legit or believable without even harder reasons. Also, according to this guy, Jeanne is mostly in control. Ruler's job is to keep innocent deaths to a minimum, while the war finishes. The reason why Ruler appears here is the large number of servants present, that basically makes this casualties unavoidable. She should not interfere with figths or the war in any way outside of that, yet time and time again she appear to do... something... Even when Sieg is far away. Let's have a look at the Dracula case. She was trying to find the red master. But on the way she noticed Dracula in his Phantasm form and immediately she wanted to stop him then and there. That means that Dracula was not supposed to use his Phantasm under any circumstances. That means we had a servant without an ultimate ability. The correct way to handle that as Ruler would've been to wait for the fight to end, then kill it once it turns towards innocents. I can't really imagine her being unable to do that with that amount of Command Spells all over her body.
Looks should have no effect at all.

As for Amakusa, it doesn't matter when and how he appeared. He gained Command Spells and summoned a servant. Thus he is allowed to participate. Just because his wish might not be something Jeanne likes, that doesn't mean it should be stopped. The whole point of the Grail War is to grant ANY wish one may have. As for Gilgamesh, he didn't really participate in the Stay Night war. He was just messing around, doing his thing as far as I know (don't know the story in Heaven's Feel yet).

Sieg is just there to have a main character. Everything around him is forced just so he gets power and plotarmor and whatnot. Siegfried was a character who wanted to help others, yeah, we get that, but I can't imagine him even being summoned for the war. The grail is supposed to only summon Spirit who have a wish, which he obviously didn't. Jeanne is 70% about shielding him from everything too (the other 30% is ruining the Grail War).

As for Caules, my point was that how bad the show is directed and such. I've actually read some of Apocrypha in LN form, but several screaming plotholes appeared there too, so I stopped.
It could be good, but it's not. And it won't be when the characters themselves fight against the franchise itself (looking at you Jeanne).

Friddan said:


The correct way to handle that as Ruler would've been to wait for the fight to end, then kill it once it turns towards innocents. I can't really imagine her being unable to do that with that amount of Command Spells all over her body.
Looks should have no effect at all.

The grail is supposed to only summon Spirit who have a wish, which he obviously didn't. Jeanne is 70% about shielding him from everything too (the other 30% is ruining the Grail War).

Veromaye said:
Is never stated that the grail only summon?? spirits who have a wish. The grail ADDS to the throne of heroes any fictional or real character that is well known to the humanity. Doesn't matter if they have a wish or not. Most of them have a wish of course. But a lot of them do not, specially to be a ruler you must NOT have a wish.
Being summoned is something that is not a choice for them. They are summoned with a catalyst.
They fight under circumstances like 1. HAVING a wish. 2. Just wanting to fight 3. Liking how their master think. If not they refuse to fight and can even kill the master if wanted. This is why the CS exist.

Friddan said:
We know for a fact that Laeticia is pious to a serious extent. This is shown when she is praying at night just before Jeanne comes to her. As such, her falling for a pseudo-human is hardly legit or believable without even harder reasons. Also, according to this guy, Jeanne is mostly in control.

Friddan said:
Ruler's job is to keep innocent deaths to a minimum, while the war finishes. The reason why Ruler appears here is the large number of servants present, that basically makes this casualties unavoidable. She should not interfere with figths or the war in any way outside of that, yet time and time again she appear to do... something...

Friddan said:
Let's have a look at the Dracula case. She was trying to find the red master. But on the way she noticed Dracula in his Phantasm form and immediately she wanted to stop him then and there. That means that Dracula was not supposed to use his Phantasm under any circumstances. That means we had a servant without an ultimate ability. The correct way to handle that as Ruler would've been to wait for the fight to end, then kill it once it turns towards innocents. I can't really imagine her being unable to do that with that amount of Command Spells all over her body.
Looks should have no effect at all.

Friddan said:
As for Amakusa, it doesn't matter when and how he appeared. He gained Command Spells and summoned a servant. Thus he is allowed to participate. Just because his wish might not be something Jeanne likes, that doesn't mean it should be stopped.

Friddan said:
The grail is supposed to only summon Spirit who have a wish, which he obviously didn't

Friddan said:

Now you claim that Ruler is there, because Shirou's wish would be kinda bad for humanity and that during Zero and SN the grail was already corrupt and that's why there was no Ruler there. Now there are two screaming thingies here that show how false this statement is. Firstly, Jack the Ripper. Jack is not a hero. She is a criminal, a villain from the viewpoint of basically anyone. This could only happen AFTER the grail has been corrupted. The other thing. If I remember correctly it is said that the grail was stolen AFTER the Third Grail War. The war after which the grail become corrupted. That means that if you are saying that in the other timeline during Zero and SN a Ruler didn't appear, because the grail was corrupt, there was no real reason for one to appear this time either.

Friddan said:
The grail chooses masters with a wish they all want something from the grail, even if they don't realise it at that point (just look at Kirei). A wish is not neccessarily something that only the grail can grant. Just look at Black Caster in Apo. He had a wish and he was working on it without needing the grail. Diarmuid and Cu also had wishes even if those were simpler and didn't need the grail to grant them. I never said the heroes' wishes need to be completed by the grail. I only said that they all had a wish (or motivation) to actually participate. Siegfried had none.

LeloTheUnamused said:
The Grail in Apocrypha is not corrupted. That is a fact, and it's because the reason it was corrupted in the first place was that the Einzbern summoned Angra Mainyu as Avenger to cheat in the Third War, while in Apocrypha they summoned Shirou as Ruler instead.
My statement is true now as it was before.
Second, Darnic stole the Grail and tampered it for sixty years, enough to realize his Holy Grail War, it is already evident by the fact that none of the Assassins involved is an Hassan. So the summoning restriction Fuyuki had don't apply here.

LeloTheUnamused said:
Siegfried just wanted to serve his new lord, that's it. He is that kind of hero, and we saw it (even if later he decided to sacrifice himself for his beliefs instead of following orders).
Heck, there is even a parallelism with Diarmuid, that basically wanted the same thing: both of them were asked by their Masters about their wish, said they had none, and were not believed.
It's the same thing, you can't say that is fine there but not here.
A "motivation" to participate, by definition, can simply be "yeah ok I want to see what's going on".

LeloTheUnamused said:
Also, you're mixing Masters' wishes and Servants' wishes for your reasoning. Don't do that, they are not the same exact thing. If someone has a strong wish, the Grail might chose them and grant them CS. For Servants is different, they can even just answer the summon for the heck of it.
The Grail doesn't choose someone only for their wish either, otherwise we wouldn't have people "forcing" themselves into the War by summoning a Servant first and therefore forcing the Grail to give them CS and the Master status.

Rukodaime said:
Question :
Since Ruler decided to step in to stop Jack because she killed "innocent", could she not use a summon spell (like she did with Red Saber) in order to have Jack appeared in front of her ?

Shayon said:

Jack's master could undo the command spell with one of her own. Ruler has two command spells for Jack, the master has three.

_Earendil_ said:
I believe that the grail is only an unlimited source of mana, not a literal wish machine, if I'm not mistaken. (At least, those were Gil-kun's words, please correct me if I'm wrong)

Friddan said:
For the first part, it seems I didn't explain well enough. What I meant by how much she is pious is that, Sieg is a homonculus. So since basically religion views any attempt at creating humans as something that should never happen it is really big stretch for her to just suddenly fall in love with one without any sort of disgust or attempting to distance themselves from it first. We could say that religion is different in the Fate universe (christianity I mean, let's be more exact), except we can't. In other Fate works we can see that there are differences between the Church and the Mages, which makes it safe to assume that homonculi are not really something that a christian in the show would just say "oh, it's a fake human, alright, whatever".

MistyBlue said:
xD Guess I'm one of the few who was glad that Fiore didn't die.

SpectrumDT said:

Maybe Laeticia is a devout Christian but not a fundamentalist. Lots of religious people cherry-pick the parts of their religion they want to follow/believe. Maybe she is the kind of Christian who wears mixed fabrics (violating Leviticus 19:19). Maybe she even believes homosexuals should be allowed to live (violating Leviticus 20:13).