Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei Episode 16 Discussion

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Sapewloth said:

JustiX-NL said:

You don't seem to understand that such treatment (spoiling him) wouldn't work on Tatsuya because he approaches everything in a logical way and not emotional.

The only one he really care's for and wont betray is in the end Miyuki.

I perfectly understand that method wouldn't work on him in particular, but between bad (i.e. spoiling him and encouraging him to embrace his role as the future head of the clan, which would at the very least partially protect Miyuki from internal conflicts regarding succession since she wouldn't be in the race) and worse (i.e. treating him like shit and encouraging all the family members to do the same, especially when the only person he's loyal to is such a brocon), choosing worse is still in the end very stupid.
Also I don't know if

, but if it was, getting rid of whatever little bit of loyalty he could've had for the clan ot begin with was easily the most retarded choice of them all.

I still believe there are more reasons why Tatsuya is treated by his clan like that,and not just because he sucks at normal magics,that is not revealed in the LN's yet.

I remember a post during the Enrollment Arc that not fully revealing most of Tatsuya's mysteries in the 1st few eps/volumes is bad writing,but I think that revealing almost everything that early is bad writing and bad marketing because what else will have people come back buying the LN's as not everyone are into hax shonen fighting.It's also nothing new,how many anime eps/manga chapters before it was revealed who was Naruto's father,and why Itachi betrayed the Uichiha;chapters before it was revealed why Ichigo in bleach can go toe-to toe with captain class shinigami's;how many volumes before some of Touma's (Index) right hand's secrets was revealed;why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much :)

for emotions
[spoiler]
the loss of strong emotions is said to be accidental,but leaving emotions for Miyuki is said to be deliberate.

Jul 25, 2014 12:15 PM

#209

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darkreaperix said:
I still believe there are more reasons why Tatsuya is treated by his clan like that,and not just because he sucks at normal magics,that is not revealed in the LN's yet.

I remember a post during the Enrollment Arc that not fully revealing most of Tatsuya's mysteries in the 1st few eps/volumes is bad writing,but I think that revealing almost everything that early is bad writing and bad marketing because what else will have people come back buying the LN's as not everyone are into hax shonen fighting.It's also nothing new,how many anime eps/manga chapters before it was revealed who was Naruto's father,and why Itachi betrayed the Uichiha;chapters before it was revealed why Ichigo in bleach can go toe-to toe with captain class shinigami's;how many volumes before some of Touma's (Index) right hand's secrets was revealed;why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much :)

for emotions

You’re mistakenly trying equate scenarios to Mahouka’s method of “building mystery” where they have no equivalence. The other works weren't withholding critical information to our understanding of the main characters there (with the exception of Snape).

You have to remember that whether or not we knew who Naruto’s father was had no bearing in the initial arcs. It wasn’t a critical bit of information for us to understand Naruto as a character. We were, however, given critical info about Naruto’s abilities and childhood, that he was a kid who had the Nine-Tails sealed into him. That he is kinda bad at school and ninjutsu. That he was shunned all his life for being a constant reminder to the Konoha Village that inside him is the monster that wrecked havoc on them so many years ago. That he became a prankster as a defense mechanism.

Same with Sasuke. It wasn’t important in the initial story why Itachi killed the entire Uchiha clan while sparing him, because it wasn’t critical to understanding Sasuke as a character. He was introduced to us as being the last surviving Uchiha clan member. He’s a moody guy to say the least because his family got murdered by his own brother. He trained hard in order to avenge his clan one day, as is evident in his abilities. We know enough to paint an accurate picture of his character.

Knowing the secret behind Touma’s right hand again isn’t critical for the viewer to understand him as a character, that is, his motivation and personality, and in a small part, his abilities.

Snape is a special and complex case in which his role in the overall story isn’t readily apparent because through and through, it’s Harry’s and Voldemort’s story. Yet you realize later on his character is inherently intertwined with Harry and Voldemort’s. Rowling kept expanding on Snape in every subsequent book as the situation with Voldemort got direr and direr until it was absolutely necessary that Harry needed to know his history with his family, Dumbledore, and Voldemort. However, we do know from Snape’s actions that he does indeed care for Harry, yet gives off vibes that he’s helping Voldemort, but there was nothing concrete for the characters to work with at the time, so no use in pursuing it. It wasn’t until The Goblet of Fire that we find out about him being a former Death Eater but is now a double agent. This just reassures us that he’s a good guy, but there’s still a lingering suspicion. There’s a conflict of interest here, but that’s what his character arc is about; redemption. It’s definitely more nuanced than what Satou is doing with Tatsuya.

That shit, however, with Tatsuya’s past and childhood. All that shit is critical to understanding Tatsuya as a character, yet the author kept it all so close to his chest that I feel more annoyed more intrigued. That’s why I advocated having at least part of the backstory in Volume 8 be in Volume 1, because it’s contains critical info on how we understand Tatsuya as a character. Of course you don’t have to dispel everything; you just have to give us the important bits to buy into his character.

I have a bad habit of comparing things to The Last of Us, but in the beginning of the game you play as the main character’s daughter pre-viral outbreak. After that, we play as the MC many years later. Long story short, that whole intro gave us the background info for why the MC acts the way he does when we take control of him in the timeskip. Without that bit, he comes off as being a jaded, world-weary psychopathic killer in a post-apocalyptic world. He lacks sympathy from the audience without that whole intro, in the same sense Tatsuya lacks sympathy from me without knowing at least the most important events in his childhood. I don’t even need the details for those events, just the important bits and then continue on from there.

There are two ways of going about it. The one where you give us the important bits to get us somewhat invested and expand on them as needed. Or the one where you give us nothing and build upon it every step the way. The second method is commonly used for amnesiac MCs. Satou did neither for Tatsuya, because there's nothing to really build on for Tatsuya.

wrenchbreadJul 25, 2014 12:35 PM

Jul 25, 2014 3:25 PM

#210

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wrenchbread said:

You’re mistakenly trying equate scenarios to Mahouka’s method of “building mystery” where they have no equivalence. The other works weren't withholding critical information to our understanding of the main characters there (with the exception of Snape).

You have to remember that whether or not we knew who Naruto’s father was had no bearing in the initial arcs. It wasn’t a critical bit of information for us to understand Naruto as a character. We were, however, given critical info about Naruto’s abilities and childhood, that he was a kid who had the Nine-Tails sealed into him. That he is kinda bad at school and ninjutsu. That he was shunned all his life for being a constant reminder to the Konoha Village that inside him is the monster that wrecked havoc on them so many years ago. That he became a prankster as a defense mechanism.

Same with Sasuke. It wasn’t important in the initial story why Itachi killed the entire Uchiha clan while sparing him, because it wasn’t critical to understanding Sasuke as a character. He was introduced to us as being the last surviving Uchiha clan member. He’s a moody guy to say the least because his family got murdered by his own brother. He trained hard in order to avenge his clan one day, as is evident in his abilities. We know enough to paint an accurate picture of his character.

Knowing the secret behind Touma’s right hand again isn’t critical for the viewer to understand him as a character, that is, his motivation and personality, and in a small part, his abilities.

Snape is a special and complex case in which his role in the overall story isn’t readily apparent because through and through, it’s Harry’s and Voldemort’s story. Yet you realize later on his character is inherently intertwined with Harry and Voldemort’s. Rowling kept expanding on Snape in every subsequent book as the situation with Voldemort got direr and direr until it was absolutely necessary that Harry needed to know his history with his family, Dumbledore, and Voldemort. However, we do know from Snape’s actions that he does indeed care for Harry, yet gives off vibes that he’s helping Voldemort, but there was nothing concrete for the characters to work with at the time, so no use in pursuing it. It wasn’t until The Goblet of Fire that we find out about him being a former Death Eater but is now a double agent. This just reassures us that he’s a good guy, but there’s still a lingering suspicion. There’s a conflict of interest here, but that’s what his character arc is about; redemption. It’s definitely more nuanced than what Satou is doing with Tatsuya.

That shit, however, with Tatsuya’s past and childhood. All that shit is critical to understanding Tatsuya as a character, yet the author kept it all so close to his chest that I feel more annoyed more intrigued. That’s why I advocated having at least part of the backstory in Volume 8 be in Volume 1, because it’s contains critical info on how we understand Tatsuya as a character. Of course you don’t have to dispel everything; you just have to give us the important bits to buy into his character.

I have a bad habit of comparing things to The Last of Us, but in the beginning of the game you play as the main character’s daughter pre-viral outbreak. After that, we play as the MC many years later. Long story short, that whole intro gave us the background info for why the MC acts the way he does when we take control of him in the timeskip. Without that bit, he comes off as being a jaded, world-weary psychopathic killer in a post-apocalyptic world. He lacks sympathy from the audience without that whole intro, in the same sense Tatsuya lacks sympathy from me without knowing at least the most important events in his childhood. I don’t even need the details for those events, just the important bits and then continue on from there.

There are two ways of going about it. The one where you give us the important bits to get us somewhat invested and expand on them as needed. Or the one where you give us nothing and build upon it every step the way. The second method is commonly used for amnesiac MCs. Satou did neither for Tatsuya, because there's nothing to really build on for Tatsuya.

It depends on your view,as with the mysteries with Tatsuya it's working,why?,because fans keep coming back buying the LN's.And remember this started as a free novel online,so for a bulk of those after reading it online still buying the published LN's.And consider that it doesn't really fit was is popular in Japan (rare ecchi scenes,harem that can't really be called a harem).andmaybe the main reason is that the first few volumes was written as a hobby and the published versions was just slightly edited,and every fan would consider that volumes 1 and 2 really wasn't really that good.But volumes 3 and 4 stated shedding some of his background and became interesting and is the reason why many got hooked on the series.

I read all the translated LN's and that bit by bit shedding of his background is what I find interesting.

for your Naruto and Sasuke,for Naruto maybe but for Sasuke knowing all those stuff threw everything he believed in for a loop,and surprised me after reading it while browsing in a bookstore,and made me buy the volume,those two bits made me interested in Naruto,which I didn't like before (only watched the anime on tv if there wasn't anything else anime related and I always forgot it's time slot.

For Touma,that bit with his arm maybe not that important to some,but it drew my interest what the heck that power was and were it came from.And what drew me to read the LN's not animated,except NT 10,I hated the end of NT 9.

for Snape his mystery is part of the charm in HP,especially with his conflicts with members of the order and Harry's gang.and that reveal was in novel 7 was great.

Jul 25, 2014 3:36 PM

#211

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darkreaperix said:

Sapewloth said:

I perfectly understand that method wouldn't work on him in particular, but between bad (i.e. spoiling him and encouraging him to embrace his role as the future head of the clan, which would at the very least partially protect Miyuki from internal conflicts regarding succession since she wouldn't be in the race) and worse (i.e. treating him like shit and encouraging all the family members to do the same, especially when the only person he's loyal to is such a brocon), choosing worse is still in the end very stupid.
Also I don't know if

, but if it was, getting rid of whatever little bit of loyalty he could've had for the clan ot begin with was easily the most retarded choice of them all.

I still believe there are more reasons why Tatsuya is treated by his clan like that,and not just because he sucks at normal magics,that is not revealed in the LN's yet.

I remember a post during the Enrollment Arc that not fully revealing most of Tatsuya's mysteries in the 1st few eps/volumes is bad writing,but I think that revealing almost everything that early is bad writing and bad marketing because what else will have people come back buying the LN's as not everyone are into hax shonen fighting.It's also nothing new,how many anime eps/manga chapters before it was revealed who was Naruto's father,and why Itachi betrayed the Uichiha;chapters before it was revealed why Ichigo in bleach can go toe-to toe with captain class shinigami's;how many volumes before some of Touma's (Index) right hand's secrets was revealed;why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much :)

for emotions
[spoiler]
the loss of strong emotions is said to be accidental,but leaving emotions for Miyuki is said to be deliberate.

[/quote]
The main difference is subject of mystery building. In other works we have questions like: "Why did Itachi murder his own clan?", "What exactly is Imagine Breaker?" or "How can Dumbledore trust Snape so much?". On the other hand we have Mahouka and its: "Why is Tatsuya so bland?".

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 25, 2014 3:46 PM

#212

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jakkubus said:

The main difference is subject of mystery building. In other works we have questions like: "Why did Itachi murder his own clan?", "What exactly is Imagine Breaker?" or "How can Dumbledore trust Snape so much?". On the other hand we have Mahouka and its: "Why is Tatsuya so bland?".[/quote]

Sight.Please stop trolling my post or I'll report you for trolling :)

Jul 25, 2014 3:56 PM

#213

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darkreaperix said:

jakkubus said:

The main difference is subject of mystery building. In other works we have questions like: "Why did Itachi murder his own clan?", "What exactly is Imagine Breaker?" or "How can Dumbledore trust Snape so much?". On the other hand we have Mahouka and its: "Why is Tatsuya so bland?".

Sight.Please stop trolling my post or I'll report you for trolling :)

Well, you look like the one who is trolling here. You just lack arguments and call others trolls.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 25, 2014 5:07 PM

#214

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darkreaperix said:
The main difference is subject of mystery building. In other works we have questions like: "Why did Itachi murder his own clan?", "What exactly is Imagine Breaker?" or "How can Dumbledore trust Snape so much?". On the other hand we have Mahouka and its: "Why is Tatsuya so bland?".

The key difference there is that those questions are for providing depth to the characters and not keeping critical info that affects our understanding of the characters hostage. Depth versus filling in the blanks. Tatsuya is filling in the blanks. I said the same thing just with more words in my previous reply. I'm not sure if you're reading it wrong or just glossing over it.

Imagine how much better it would be if we knew the from the start that Tatsuya had a hard life. Not necessarily the details, just that things weren't sugar and rainbows for him. From the start the audience would feel some sort of sympathy for him and we would have a foundation for his character. If he does anything after, we can at least understand why he does the things he does. What's happening here instead is Satou writing Tatsuya to be an übermensch for a good portion of the story, then does a 180 and expects people to immediately accept that this übermensch has actually had a hard life? It feels blatantly emotionally manipulative and cheap when you do that. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

wrenchbreadJul 25, 2014 5:12 PM

Jul 25, 2014 5:17 PM

#215

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wrenchbread said:

darkreaperix said:
The main difference is subject of mystery building. In other works we have questions like: "Why did Itachi murder his own clan?", "What exactly is Imagine Breaker?" or "How can Dumbledore trust Snape so much?". On the other hand we have Mahouka and its: "Why is Tatsuya so bland?".

The key difference there is that those questions are for providing depth to the characters and not keeping critical info that affects our understanding of the characters hostage. Depth versus filling in the blanks. Tatsuya is filling in the blanks. I said the same thing just with more words in my previous reply. I'm not sure if you're reading it wrong or just glossing over it.

Imagine how much better it would be if we knew the from the start that Tatsuya had a hard life. Not necessarily the details, just that things weren't sugar and rainbows for him. From the start the audience would feel some sort of sympathy for him and we would have a foundation for his character. If he does anything after, we can at least understand why he does the things he does. What's happening here instead is Satou writing Tatsuya to be an übermensch for a good portion of the story, then does a 180 and expects people to immediately accept that this übermensch has actually had a hard life? It feels blatantly emotionally manipulative and cheap when you do that. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

You are quoting me right now. :P And I am absolutely agreeing with your earlier post.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 25, 2014 5:37 PM

#216

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jakkubus said:
You are quoting me right now. :P And I am absolutely agreeing with your earlier post.

My bad, I really hate the quote system here on MAL. The forum I frequent only keeps the most recent post in the reply chain. Keeps posts clean.

And I figured something is wrong because the commas and other punctuation were in their proper places. lol

Jul 26, 2014 3:11 AM

#217

MagicianX26

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wrenchbread said:

darkreaperix said:
The main difference is subject of mystery building. In other works we have questions like: "Why did Itachi murder his own clan?", "What exactly is Imagine Breaker?" or "How can Dumbledore trust Snape so much?". On the other hand we have Mahouka and its: "Why is Tatsuya so bland?".

The key difference there is that those questions are for providing depth to the characters and not keeping critical info that affects our understanding of the characters hostage. Depth versus filling in the blanks. Tatsuya is filling in the blanks. I said the same thing just with more words in my previous reply. I'm not sure if you're reading it wrong or just glossing over it.

Imagine how much better it would be if we knew the from the start that Tatsuya had a hard life. Not necessarily the details, just that things weren't sugar and rainbows for him. From the start the audience would feel some sort of sympathy for him and we would have a foundation for his character. If he does anything after, we can at least understand why he does the things he does. What's happening here instead is Satou writing Tatsuya to be an übermensch for a good portion of the story, then does a 180 and expects people to immediately accept that this übermensch has actually had a hard life? It feels blatantly emotionally manipulative and cheap when you do that. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

Hmm, interesting point. But if you look at it another way, Satou was writing online with probably with no returns on his writing, so he did that to get more readers...

Anyway, I admittedly have no interest in Tatsuya's actual origins(Reminscience is my least favorite arc), rather in Mahouka's world and others. If there's one thing undeniable about this series, the world-building is extermely well done.

I spent my time here nowadays: [url=forums.spacebattles.com]Spacebattles Forums[/url]

Its been a while since I came to MAL. Ignore my old posts please, they were dumb.

Jul 26, 2014 5:34 AM

#218

HomeAlone

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Can't you just create a thread for this? I have the impression to read 2 Tatsuya haters bullying a fan who is also a LN reader. How can it be considered bad to give hints about something and explain it more clearly later? Many authors do that.

Isn't it the reason why flashback arcs are appreciated and welcomed? The story and development would not be the same if he had started to explain everything about Tatsuya's life. It is hinted since vol 1.

Jul 26, 2014 7:53 AM

#219

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HomeAlone said:
Can't you just create a thread for this? I have the impression to read 2 Tatsuya haters bullying a fan who is also a LN reader. How can it be considered bad to give hints about something and explain it more clearly later? Many authors do that.

Isn't it the reason why flashback arcs are appreciated and welcomed? The story and development would not be the same if he had started to explain everything about Tatsuya's life. It is hinted since vol 1.

You completely missed the point. Did you even read other posts? It's not about that something like giving hints or making flashbacks is bad. The point is how Satou is doing it. In other works authors do that to develop characters (Itachi, Snape) or world (Touma's right hand, Titans' weakpoint) and he did it to justify Tatsuya's flatness.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 26, 2014 8:59 AM

#220

ScienceGirl

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Finally Tatsuya show off. Great action episode so far. This is what I want from very first. Although I admit he is too overpowered. I want to see him badly injured sometimes :p

Poor Mikihiko XD but at least he still manage to take one guy down. Leo is so strong too. I get a feeling that next ep won't be as amazing as this.

"All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous"

PROJECT-ERASER

Jul 26, 2014 9:33 AM

#221

HomeAlone

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jakkubus said:

HomeAlone said:
Can't you just create a thread for this? I have the impression to read 2 Tatsuya haters bullying a fan who is also a LN reader. How can it be considered bad to give hints about something and explain it more clearly later? Many authors do that.

Isn't it the reason why flashback arcs are appreciated and welcomed? The story and development would not be the same if he had started to explain everything about Tatsuya's life. It is hinted since vol 1.

You completely missed the point. Did you even read other posts? It's not about that something like giving hints or making flashbacks is bad. The point is how Satou is doing it. In other works authors do that to develop characters (Itachi, Snape) or world (Touma's right hand, Titans' weakpoint) and he did it to justify Tatsuya's flatness.

I read it, your question why is Tatsuya so bland? But everybody doesn't find him bland, particularly LN readers who can read his thoughts and whatnot. You can consider him gary stu and not like him but a reason to explain why someone is a stu is unnecessary. The mysteries are rather "why is Tatsuya so attached to his sister and almost emotionless when something else is concerned"? Why are his powers not considered magic? Why is he neglected by his own family?

These questions are the mysteries. Itachi himself is considered a stu by some readers

Jul 26, 2014 10:12 AM

#222

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HomeAlone said:
Can't you just create a thread for this? I have the impression to read 2 Tatsuya haters bullying a fan who is also a LN reader. How can it be considered bad to give hints about something and explain it more clearly later? Many authors do that.

Isn't it the reason why flashback arcs are appreciated and welcomed? The story and development would not be the same if he had started to explain everything about Tatsuya's life. It is hinted since vol 1.

Really? Bullying? I'm just explaining why his line of thinking doesn't hold much water and there's a better way of doing it. I'm not saying it's bad to have mysteries, it's how you do it. I explained it in my previous replies.

HomeAlone said:
I read it, your question why is Tatsuya so bland? But everybody doesn't find him bland, particularly LN readers who can read his thoughts and whatnot. You can consider him gary stu and not like him but a reason to explain why someone is a stu is unnecessary. The mysteries are rather "why is Tatsuya so attached to his sister and almost emotionless when something else is concerned"? Why are his powers not considered magic? Why is he neglected by his own family?

These questions are the mysteries. Itachi himself is considered a stu by some readers

>why is Tatsuya so attached to his sister and almost emotionless when something else is concerned?

This is a question that should be answered ASAP, because it's critical to understanding Tatsuya as a character and serves as a foundation for his actions and thoughts going forward. His devotion is beyond that of a normal brother and Miyuki's devotion is beyond that of a normal sister.

>Why are his powers not considered magic?

Not critical, but can be expanded upon with a sentence or two

>Why is he neglected by his own family?

Not critical, the fact that he was neglected is what influences him

>Itachi himself is considered a stu by some readers

First, I think your definition of Stu is wrong. Second, he's [supposedly] a character who did the wrong things for the right reasons. More of a tragic hero than anything.

Jul 26, 2014 10:19 AM

#223

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HomeAlone said:
I read it, your question why is Tatsuya so bland? But everybody doesn't find him bland, particularly LN readers who can read his thoughts and whatnot. You can consider him gary stu and not like him but a reason to explain why someone is a stu is unnecessary. The mysteries are rather "why is Tatsuya so attached to his sister and almost emotionless when something else is concerned"? Why are his powers not considered magic? Why is he neglected by his own family?

So now i am sure that you don't even read other posts.
About Mahouka mysteries, to ask first question viewer has to know, that Tatsuya is emotionless and when he find it out, he will more or less
know the reason behind it. The same is with your second question.

These questions are the mysteries. Itachi himself is considered a stu by some readers

I couldn't care less.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 26, 2014 12:20 PM

#224

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I don't yet feel bullied,trolled by jakkubus maybe :) I snarl back if i felt I'm being bullied but thanks for the concern.

for discussion I believed wrenchbread has read the novels or some of it,and he just didn;t like it.I would agree within the Enrollment arc,Satou was more into world building than chracterization in the first half of the arc,but as I said remember he was writing it online without a care for the world and without a professional editor,but he did get better along the way.Withholding info about the MC at such an early stage isn't really new,but yeah he did slowly released info about Tatsuya per arc.I wouldn't fault him,sometimes writers try different stuff that is against the norm and sometimes works sometimes it fails miserably,remember SAO was an ol novel and was published after 1 volume but Mahouka I beleive took 12 volumes before it was picked up by a publisher (not sure about this as I only got into LN's without anime's early this year),but I'm sure Yokohama was part of the OL novel.For Mahouka I think it kinda worked slowly as it became a best seller later on.

But I found it fun and enjoyable how we really didn't know about his past at the get go,and if you really read the novels he's basic character traits were in his internal monologues not with what he says out loud,which unfortunately the anime decided to cut a good chunk off.You couldn't see that much about his cold,stoic,pragmatic personality (if you read the LN and keep on insisting he has no personality,your just trolling :) ) A better description of him would be a lite demon king,and maybe the main reason he isn't liked much here is because he doesn't have much traits of a shonen hero that is in the norm,you know the guy that always gets in trouble because he has to save a complete stranger or a mere acquaintance.He doesn't go all out unless he is ordered to (mostly by Miyuki,and Juumonji when he was forced to enter Monolith code) or feels Miyuki will get in danger in the future (see Enrollment Arc).

>Itachi himself is considered a stu by some readers

First, I think your definition of Stu is wrong. Second, he's [supposedly] a character who did the wrong things for the right reasons. More of a tragic hero than anything.

is the point I'm talking about,in the early chapters he was considered an evil person but the reveal twisted everything Sasuke and the readers knew about him,and he it took a couple of hundred chapters.And the main reason I got interested in the series.In terms of Mahouka,imagine someone who got bored and frustrated with the 1st 2 volumes,and didn't bother to read and someone recommended him to read vol 8,tried it and got hooked on the series and bought all the volumes available,isn't that good marketing?Sometimes you don't need to show all your cards early.

With this since it's kinda going OT,just PM me replies if any :)

Jul 26, 2014 12:37 PM

#225

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darkreaperix said:
is the point I'm talking about,in the early chapters he was considered an evil person but the reveal twisted everything Sasuke and the readers knew about him,and he it took a couple of hundred chapters.And the main reason I got interested in the series.In terms of Mahouka,imagine someone who got bored and frustrated with the 1st 2 volumes,and didn't bother to read and someone recommended him to read vol 8,tried it and got hooked on the series and bought all the volumes available,isn't that good marketing?Sometimes you don't need to show all your cards early.

With this since it's kinda going OT,just PM me replies if any :)

But Itachi isn't a main character. He's like Snape; inherently intertwined with the main character(s) but not the focus. Whether or not we know why Itachi or Snape did the things they did had no bearing on our understanding of the main characters (Sasuke and Harry). This is why I feel your comparison is flawed because it's still about the MCs in the end, and knowing the motivations of other characters didn't affect our understanding of the main ones. Tatsuya in this case is a main character and withholding critical character info about the MC from the audience for 8 volumes isn't going to fly. Perhaps you guys are really patient, tolerant, or can't recognize this.

Plus, I feel it's kinda dumb to jump from volume 2 to volume 8 just so you can get someone invested in a character again, but each to their own. It's like saying volumes 3-7 aren't really worth reading. I just believe this could've been done way better based on the many different works I've experienced over the years inside and outside of anime and fail to understand why some people are defending this method.

Jul 26, 2014 1:31 PM

#226

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696

Too bad anime will probably include only volumes 1-5... Really? Two seasons of anime without any MC character development?

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 26, 2014 4:39 PM

#227

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May 2014

505

wrenchbread said:

But Itachi isn't a main character. He's like Snape; inherently intertwined with the main character(s) but not the focus. Whether or not we know why Itachi or Snape did the things they did had no bearing on our understanding of the main characters (Sasuke and Harry). This is why I feel your comparison is flawed because it's still about the MCs in the end, and knowing the motivations of other characters didn't affect our understanding of the main ones. Tatsuya in this case is a main character and withholding critical character info about the MC from the audience for 8 volumes isn't going to fly. Perhaps you guys are really patient, tolerant, or can't recognize this.

Plus, I feel it's kinda dumb to jump from volume 2 to volume 8 just so you can get someone invested in a character again, but each to their own. It's like saying volumes 3-7 aren't really worth reading. I just believe this could've been done way better based on the many different works I've experienced over the years inside and outside of anime and fail to understand why some people are defending this method.

My example with Naruto again,never liked it before,but got hooked after the Itachi reveal and the Naruto father's reveal,and I back tracked the anime starting with ep 1 when they were kids :) And also made Itachi my favorite character in Naruto.

On your point about Itachi not the MC,and is not needed to fully understand Naruto maybe on point,but it made me actually like Naruto and Sasuke which I used to find both annoying and made Sasuke a better character in my opinion.

As for Tatsuya,I just liked his character from the get go (main reason is,checking out for new anime I got bombarded by pathetic MC's) and that I keep comparing him to Batman because I see Batz in his character.Both natural loners forced? to work with elites,both geniuses in a sense and both have powerful toys.As Batman will do anything to protect his city,Tatsuya will do anything to protect Miyuki.

Yokohama will be animated,it's in the OP,they might go like Oreimo,a couple of eps online to finish off the season.I believe 1 more ep for 9SC,and then jumps to Yokohama.Certain important chapters of vol 5 might be made to OVA's bundled with the new novel (14 will be out this September) or with the anime DVD's.

Jul 26, 2014 4:58 PM

#228

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May 2010

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darkreaperix said:
My example with Naruto again,never liked it before,but got hooked after the Itachi reveal and the Naruto father's reveal,and I back tracked the anime starting with ep 1 when they were kids :) And also made Itachi my favorite character in Naruto.

On your point about Itachi not the MC,and is not needed to fully understand Naruto maybe on point,but it made me actually like Naruto and Sasuke which I used to find both annoying and made Sasuke a better character in my opinion.

I don't get how knowing Itachi and Yondaime makes the main characters better. They're intertwined but developing the side characters doesn't necessarily mean the same happens to the main characters, nor does it affect our understanding of the main characters. This is all outside of their influence.

darkreaperix said:
As for Tatsuya,I just liked his character from the get go (main reason is,checking out for new anime I got bombarded by pathetic MC's) and that I keep comparing him to Batman because I see Batz in his character.Both natural loners forced? to work with elites,both geniuses in a sense and both have powerful toys.As Batman will do anything to protect his city,Tatsuya will do anything to protect Miyuki.

Except Batman is unequivocally good. He would sacrifice himself for Gotham, even if the people there are all pieces of shit. He inherently believes in the good of the people in a bad city. "...he's the hero Gotham deserves, but not the one it needs right now."

Tatsuya, however, is as selfish as they come. He's not a hero, nor something the world deserves or needs.

wrenchbreadJul 26, 2014 5:14 PM

Jul 27, 2014 12:38 AM

#229

TragicRomance

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May 2010

8099

Guess this episode was good. Miyuki is so proud of her brother

Jul 27, 2014 3:40 AM

#230

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May 2013

696

darkreaperix said:
As for Tatsuya,I just liked his character from the get go (main reason is,checking out for new anime I got bombarded by pathetic MC's) and that I keep comparing him to Batman because I see Batz in his character.Both natural loners forced? to work with elites,both geniuses in a sense and both have powerful toys.As Batman will do anything to protect his city,Tatsuya will do anything to protect Miyuki.

Yokohama will be animated,it's in the OP,they might go like Oreimo,a couple of eps online to finish off the season.I believe 1 more ep for 9SC,and then jumps to Yokohama.Certain important chapters of vol 5 might be made to OVA's bundled with the new novel (14 will be out this September) or with the anime DVD's.

I would rather compare him with Superman. After all Bruce Wayne, despite being badass hero, is still human under his black costume. Batman is his fake persona created to fight crimes. He may be genius, he may be rich, but it wont change who he truly is. And despite being mere weak human, he still fights villains, even if they are far above normal people. On the other hand we have Superman. Though he has his weaknesses, he certainly is not human. And oppositely to Batman case, Clark Kent is not his true identity, but a mask to fit in human society. Also nota bene his major antagonist is human. Genius, but still human.
Tatsuya, as god-inspired character, is definitely closer to Superman. He is superhuman among humans and his identity as low achiever highschool student is fake. And he also mostly fight normal people (though they are retards rather than geniuses).

jakkubusJul 27, 2014 7:46 AM

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 28, 2014 4:52 AM

#231

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May 2014

505

jakkubus said:
I would rather compare him with Superman. After all Bruce Wayne, despite being badass hero, is still human under his black costume. Batman is his fake persona created to fight crimes. He may be genius, he may be rich, but it wont change who he truly is. And despite being mere weak human, he still fights villains, even if they are far above normal people. On the other hand we have Superman. Though he has his weaknesses, he certainly is not human. And oppositely to Batman case, Clark Kent is not his true identity, but a mask to fit in human society. Also nota bene his major antagonist is human. Genius, but still human.
Tatsuya, as god-inspired character, is definitely closer to Superman. He is superhuman among humans and his identity as low achiever highschool student is fake. And he also mostly fight normal people (though they are retards rather than geniuses).

Something you are wrong with,Batman is the real persona while the Bruce Wayne persona is the fake one.Power wise you can compare him to superman,personality wise it's Batman,also remember that Batman is differently written in his own comics where he is more written as a vigilante compared when he is written in the JLA as he is written more as a superhero.

@ wrenchbread Batz still will sacrifice someone for the good of Gotham,but we do agree with something,Tatsuya is not written as a hero,which to makes him more human and realistic,in reality,would you go out saving a complete stranger or a mere acquaintance from danger that could put your life at risk?

For Sasuke,he was a whiny bitch at the start and annoyed the hell out of me and started to be more likable when he stopped being whiny and more angry at the Leaf for what Itachi had to go thru.Well that reveal made him more likable to me.

Jul 28, 2014 5:06 AM

#232

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May 2013

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darkreaperix said:
Something you are wrong with,Batman is the real persona while the Bruce Wayne persona is the fake one.Power wise you can compare him to superman,personality wise it's Batman,also remember that Batman is differently written in his own comics where he is more written as a vigilante compared when he is written in the JLA as he is written more as a superhero.

No, Bruce Wayne may feel more connected with his Batman persona, but still beneath black armor and bunch of toys he is mere human. And he gives his best to protect his city from his mostly inhuman enemies.

@ wrenchbread Batz still will sacrifice someone for the good of Gotham,but we do agree with something,Tatsuya is not written as a hero,which to makes him more human and realistic,in reality,would you go out saving a complete stranger or a mere acquaintance from danger that could put your life at risk?

You are calling bona fide Gary Stu realistic? Now I'm sure that you are trolling.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 28, 2014 5:20 AM

#233

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May 2014

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jakkubus said:

You are calling bona fide Gary Stu realistic? Now I'm sure that you are trolling.

I guess you didn't get the point that I'm talking about personality and characterization (LN though,his personality in the anime kinda sucks) not powers or abilities or feats he did.

Jul 28, 2014 5:26 AM

#234

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696

darkreaperix said:
I guess you didn't get the point that I'm talking about personality and characterization (LN though,his personality in the anime kinda sucks) not powers or abilities or feats he did.

So basically you are saying that the more bastardly someone is, the more human he is?

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 28, 2014 5:28 AM

#235

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May 2014

505

jakkubus said:

darkreaperix said:
I guess you didn't get the point that I'm talking about personality and characterization (LN though,his personality in the anime kinda sucks) not powers or abilities or feats he did.

So basically you are saying that the more bastardly someone is, the more human he is?

That's human nature.For you,you see someone in a life or death situation that could put you also in harms way?what would you do?go guns a blazing or think thrice first?or just walk away?

Jul 28, 2014 5:33 AM

#236

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darkreaperix said:

jakkubus said:

So basically you are saying that the more bastardly someone is, the more human he is?

That's human nature.For you,you see someone in a life or death situation that could put you also in harms way?what would you do?go guns a blazing or think thrice first?or just walk away?

The fact his nature resembles yours doesn't mean that he is more human.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 28, 2014 5:36 AM

#237

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May 2014

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jakkubus said:

darkreaperix said:

That's human nature.For you,you see someone in a life or death situation that could put you also in harms way?what would you do?go guns a blazing or think thrice first?or just walk away?

The fact his nature resembles yours doesn't mean that he is more human.

But you never answered my question.So I leave it at that.

Jul 28, 2014 5:41 AM

#238

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May 2013

696

darkreaperix said:

jakkubus said:

The fact his nature resembles yours doesn't mean that he is more human.

But you never answered my question.So I leave it at that.

Probably yes. I not a guy who think twice in that kind of stressful situations and I hate when someone is bullying weak. That makes you more human than me?

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 28, 2014 11:38 AM

#239

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May 2010

418

darkreaperix said:
I guess you didn't get the point that I'm talking about personality and characterization (LN though,his personality in the anime kinda sucks) not powers or abilities or feats he did.

jakkubus said:
So basically you are saying that the more bastardly someone is, the more human he is?

darkreaperix said:
That's human nature.For you,you see someone in a life or death situation that could put you also in harms way?what would you do?go guns a blazing or think thrice first?or just walk away?

jakkubus said:
The fact his nature resembles yours doesn't mean that he is more human.

darkreaperix said:
But you never answered my question.So I leave it at that.

jakkabus doesn't have to answer your loaded questions. You're insinuating that people who believe in good are less than human, when the human condition is a broad spectrum of things. You have an awfully cynical view of the world (more than me, at least) if you believe that all humans are inherently selfish assholes. See, this is the view that Mahouka peddles and gives its supporters something to rally around.

I think this says it best:

So while Tatsuya’s description of himself may seem bizarre and pathetic to the rest of us, to a certain fanbase, this is what they want to become. They want to be this weirdo who supposedly operates with inhuman efficiency (of course, he doesn’t). It is what allows them to distinguish themselves from the masses — the lowly, pathetic, emotional masses.

darkreaperix said:
Batz still will sacrifice someone for the good of Gotham,but we do agree with something,Tatsuya is not written as a hero,which to makes him more human and realistic,in reality,would you go out saving a complete stranger or a mere acquaintance from danger that could put your life at risk?

I’m sorry, just because someone isn’t written as a hero, doesn’t mean they’re more human or realistic. I can name so many non-hero characters that are more believable than this robot. Hell, I can name robots more believable than Tatsuya. Even R2-D2 or C-3PO has him beat. Considering how awfully written the conflicts and villains are in the Mahoukaverse, I don’t expect Tatsuya, much less the main cast, to be any better characterization-wise. Just because he can make a few humorous quips in his mind doesn’t a more realistic, human character make. I’d even argue with the shit he’s seen, the only type humor that's consistent with his situation is cynical/dark humor. You know, realistically, his character is the type that gets shunned by everyone, but just somehow, he's managed to get all the girls on him and all the guys to hate him. I would've liked to see some sort of mentor try to steer him onto the right path of actually doing some good in the world. Unless the Mahoukaverse is so far gone that it has no concept of good in 2095. At which case, they should've copied Metal Gear Solid and broke into speeches about how war has changed and something about the age of deterrence.

I'd say Batman is more realistic than Tatsuya. He has demons to wrestle with. He has seen himself and people close to him wronged and doesn't want the same to happen to others. Some say he's got multiple personality disorder with all the shit he's seen and done. Against all that, he still believes in the good people of Gotham and actively works to help those people. Is that naive? Possibly, but he's a force of good in a city of bad.

What does Tatsuya believe in? I asked around the Mahouka fanbase and they couldn't find a good answer. They concluded the guy honestly doesn't believe in anything, just only in doing whatever to protect Miyuki. He's not realistic, nor human based on people I've seen in my life and the various media I've consumed. He's seems inhumane at worst and irrational at best.

You know what's human nature? Cognitive dissonance. "Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two conflicting ideas simultaneously." We always have a choice of helping people or letting them come to harm. "I want to help that person, but I don't want to get hurt myself." It already takes a lot of courage to put yourself into harm's way to help family, much less another person. To actively not want to help others doesn’t make you more human, it only makes you seem you have no humanity. Even if human nature is inherently selfish, I don’t believe in indulging in it.

I think this is especially topical, considering I finished playing Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons only a few days ago. There were two moments in the game where it resonated with me: one where you had the option of saving a man who was trying to commit suicide by hanging himself; another where someone close to you is dying and went to hell and back to save them, at the cost of someone dear to you. I ran fast as hell to grab that guy's legs and cut his rope down. His house burned down, taking the lives of his wife and child with it. He tried to find peace in killing himself, but I brought back a music box from the house to remind him that his family wouldn’t have wanted that.

I was playing through Beyond: Two Souls last night. You play as a girl named Jodie, through important points in her life as she lives with a spirit/entity/supernatural thing that's been attached to her since she was born. There was a moment where she hit a low point; she was homeless, tired, hungry. She was saved by a group of homeless people, who are all trying to just survive. Jodie up to this point did things she wasn’t proud of and sought to use her powers to help others even if it meant coming to harm herself. It was for a short while, but she called those people family.

The point is, I saw more humanity and believable actions in those events that I did for the entirety of Mahouka thus far. No human lacks compassion, not at the propensity that Tatsuya does. Do you know what it's called when you lack compassion? Inhumanity - 'not human'

Tatsuya isn't human.

wrenchbreadJul 28, 2014 12:14 PM

Jul 28, 2014 2:11 PM

#240

SetsunaFromSeiei

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Dec 2010

72

wrenchbread said:

What does Tatsuya believe in? I asked around the Mahouka fanbase and they couldn't find a good answer. They concluded the guy honestly doesn't believe in anything, just only in doing whatever to protect Miyuki. He's not realistic, nor human based on people I've seen in my life and the various media I've consumed. He's seems inhumane at worst and irrational at best.

Tatsuya himself does not thinks of himself as human, he says he is akin to generators and merely a tool, the same argument you are using is used by characters that hate him and he does not cares, the one sad with it is Miyuki who is human, infantile but still.
Tatsuya is purposely not portrayed as human, people who knows about him sees him as a thing that should be locked inside Yotsuba house basement, some of his adult colleagues don't see him as human along with most of his family, if you don't like this sort of character Mahouka is not for you.

SetsunaFromSeieiJul 28, 2014 2:14 PM

Jul 28, 2014 3:04 PM

#241

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May 2013

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SetsunaFromSeiei said:

wrenchbread said:

What does Tatsuya believe in? I asked around the Mahouka fanbase and they couldn't find a good answer. They concluded the guy honestly doesn't believe in anything, just only in doing whatever to protect Miyuki. He's not realistic, nor human based on people I've seen in my life and the various media I've consumed. He's seems inhumane at worst and irrational at best.

Tatsuya himself does not thinks of himself as human, he says he is akin to generators and merely a tool, the same argument you are using is used by characters that hate him and he does not cares, the one sad with it is Miyuki who is human, infantile but still.
Tatsuya is purposely not portrayed as human, people who knows about him sees him as a thing that should be locked inside Yotsuba house basement, some of his adult colleagues don't see him as human along with most of his family, if you don't like this sort of character Mahouka is not for you.

I think that he should be locked inside Yotsuba house basement too. Anime without him would be much more interesting.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 28, 2014 3:20 PM

#242

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May 2010

418

SetsunaFromSeiei said:
Tatsuya himself does not thinks of himself as human, he says he is akin to generators and merely a tool, the same argument you are using is used by characters that hate him and he does not cares, the one sad with it is Miyuki who is human, infantile but still.
Tatsuya is purposely not portrayed as human, people who knows about him sees him as a thing that should be locked inside Yotsuba house basement, some of his adult colleagues don't see him as human along with most of his family, if you don't like this sort of character Mahouka is not for you.

jakkubus said:
I think that he should be locked inside Yotsuba house basement too. Anime without him would be much more interesting.

First, let's stop telling people if they don't like this sort of character that they shouldn't watch Mahouka. It deflects criticism and makes you sound like you can't accept it.

Second, thanks for telling me something I already know... Not sure how that changes anything or what your point is.

Third, it's funny how I finished Beyond: Two Souls just a moment ago which tackles the same sort of themes, but one was utterly engaging, while the other one of course is Mahouka. The MC in the game has supernatural powers where her parents see her as a monster and the government sees her as a tool, but the difference is... she exhibits more human qualities than most of the people around her! Funny huh? While Tatsuya acts like and is literally a reprogrammed human tool. It's hard to care for a guy like that. Shit, I cared for Jodie infinitely more than I cared for Tatsuya. I genuinely felt for her character in whatever challenges she faced, whatever low points she hit.

wrenchbreadJul 28, 2014 3:26 PM

Jul 28, 2014 5:43 PM

#243

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May 2013

696

wrenchbread said:

SetsunaFromSeiei said:
Tatsuya himself does not thinks of himself as human, he says he is akin to generators and merely a tool, the same argument you are using is used by characters that hate him and he does not cares, the one sad with it is Miyuki who is human, infantile but still.
Tatsuya is purposely not portrayed as human, people who knows about him sees him as a thing that should be locked inside Yotsuba house basement, some of his adult colleagues don't see him as human along with most of his family, if you don't like this sort of character Mahouka is not for you.

jakkubus said:
I think that he should be locked inside Yotsuba house basement too. Anime without him would be much more interesting.

First, let's stop telling people if they don't like this sort of character that they shouldn't watch Mahouka. It deflects criticism and makes you sound like you can't accept it.

Second, thanks for telling me something I already know... Not sure how that changes anything or what your point is.

Third, it's funny how I finished Beyond: Two Souls just a moment ago which tackles the same sort of themes, but one was utterly engaging, while the other one of course is Mahouka. The MC in the game has supernatural powers where her parents see her as a monster and the government sees her as a tool, but the difference is... she exhibits more human qualities than most of the people around her! Funny huh? While Tatsuya acts like and is literally a reprogrammed human tool. It's hard to care for a guy like that. Shit, I cared for Jodie infinitely more than I cared for Tatsuya. I genuinely felt for her character in whatever challenges she faced, whatever low points she hit.

Well, it's hard to care for someone who is never wrong and has no weaknesses. Tatsuya just doesn't need anyone care.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 29, 2014 6:09 PM

#244

loveyuri

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Jan 2013

259

That was amazing :D
Just watched 10 eps in a row :)
The only thing that bugs me is that they never got to the part that tatsuya went back to the chairwomen and them and they start questioning him about what he did. I mean, they did spend like a good 1 min about them talking about what Tatsuya did and how the chairwomen notice that he was unhurt even tho that blast was suppose to do some heavy injuries.

Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel.- Tifa lockhart
Which is it? A memory or us? -Tifa lockhart

Jul 29, 2014 8:48 PM

#245

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May 2013

696

loveyuri said:
That was amazing :D
Just watched 10 eps in a row :)
The only thing that bugs me is that they never got to the part that tatsuya went back to the chairwomen and them and they start questioning him about what he did. I mean, they did spend like a good 1 min about them talking about what Tatsuya did and how the chairwomen notice that he was unhurt even tho that blast was suppose to do some heavy injuries.

I wonder what he told her and how she believed him.

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 29, 2014 9:47 PM

#246

loveyuri

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Jan 2013

259

jakkubus said:

loveyuri said:
That was amazing :D
Just watched 10 eps in a row :)
The only thing that bugs me is that they never got to the part that tatsuya went back to the chairwomen and them and they start questioning him about what he did. I mean, they did spend like a good 1 min about them talking about what Tatsuya did and how the chairwomen notice that he was unhurt even tho that blast was suppose to do some heavy injuries.

I wonder what he told her and how she believed him.

I don't think they even talked after.

Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel.- Tifa lockhart
Which is it? A memory or us? -Tifa lockhart

Jul 29, 2014 10:04 PM

#247

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696

loveyuri said:

jakkubus said:

I wonder what he told her and how she believed him.

I don't think they even talked after.

You mentioned that they spent good minute talking, didn't you?

No wonder, dragon with no head must be retarded.

Jul 29, 2014 11:46 PM

#248

Genocyber

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Feb 2014

705

Jared3318 said:
Miyuki was dripping wet when Tatsuya won

lol I bet XD
Tatsuya being badass with that flash cast yo, was lookin forward to the foreshadow in OP 1

"For the sake of humankind, I forsake my humanity." - Cherry

Jul 30, 2014 2:08 AM

#249

loveyuri

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Jan 2013

259

jakkubus said:

loveyuri said:

I don't think they even talked after.

You mentioned that they spent good minute talking, didn't you?

When he was still in the game.
They never showed what happened afterward.

When Tatsuya should have been seriously injured, he used his self-restoration which surprised everyone. Then they went to the scene with the chairwomen and the rest of them and they were all shocked. After, she asks that why isn't Tatsuya injured at all? etc.. She knew that tatsuya should have been seriously injured. However, if my memory serves me correctly, we never get to see the scene that Tatsuya talks to the chairwomen/rest of the members after his fight and they never question him about how he got unharmed besides losing the ability to hear and how he did what he did.

Words aren't the only way to tell someone how you feel.- Tifa lockhart
Which is it? A memory or us? -Tifa lockhart

Jul 30, 2014 2:15 AM

#250