Vinland Saga
Otaku_guru said: Many people deserve to be punished or killed for their wrongdoings. Every person can not be forgiven. In your view, does Thorfinn deserve forgiveness? Or at least a second chance? Why or why not? If Thorfinn does deserve forgiveness, is he allowed to decide who deserves forgiveness and who doesn't? If yes, what gives him the right, and how should he be making the decision? If no, what should he do from now on? Does Thorfinn think he deserves forgiveness? Why does (or doesn't) he think that? |
| batmans no kill policy is bad so batman should kill the joker already for the sake of the greater good and yes killing the joker is lesser evil same logic with vinland sagas pacifism message |
Reply to Otaku_guru
@perseii I asked about your views but I am getting questioned here, anyways I shall tell you my views on this:
Perspective based:
I am no one to forgive or punish Thorfinn. I can not understand the pain of the people and their families he killed. So only they deserve the right to punish or forgive Thorfinn. It all depends on the perspective of everyone. If I were in Einar's shoes, I would have forgiven Thorfinn and would have given him a second chance. If I were from the families of victims and saw Thorfinn then I would not think a second time and kill him. Einar knows the kind and peace-loving Thorfinn but victims only saw him as a monster.
My own opinion:
I would have punished Thorfinn (Not killed him) because at some time he knew what he was doing was wrong. Then I would give him a second chance to repent of his sins (Only if I knew the current him).
For your second question: No, he is not allowed to decide who deserves forgiveness. He will forgive everyone and that would backfire on him someday.
Forgiving enemies that are sure to stab on our back is something that Thorfinn would do because once he wants no fight but everyone does not have the same ideals. He should repent himself like he is trying to do in anime.
Third and last question: He does not think he deserves forgiveness and that's why he's trying to repent himself by creating a vinland. He thinks of himself as no better than Vikings and he's correct here and repenting is the best course of action for him. Forgiveness is not an option in his mind after all of that he did in past.
Perspective based:
I am no one to forgive or punish Thorfinn. I can not understand the pain of the people and their families he killed. So only they deserve the right to punish or forgive Thorfinn. It all depends on the perspective of everyone. If I were in Einar's shoes, I would have forgiven Thorfinn and would have given him a second chance. If I were from the families of victims and saw Thorfinn then I would not think a second time and kill him. Einar knows the kind and peace-loving Thorfinn but victims only saw him as a monster.
My own opinion:
I would have punished Thorfinn (Not killed him) because at some time he knew what he was doing was wrong. Then I would give him a second chance to repent of his sins (Only if I knew the current him).
For your second question: No, he is not allowed to decide who deserves forgiveness. He will forgive everyone and that would backfire on him someday.
Forgiving enemies that are sure to stab on our back is something that Thorfinn would do because once he wants no fight but everyone does not have the same ideals. He should repent himself like he is trying to do in anime.
Third and last question: He does not think he deserves forgiveness and that's why he's trying to repent himself by creating a vinland. He thinks of himself as no better than Vikings and he's correct here and repenting is the best course of action for him. Forgiveness is not an option in his mind after all of that he did in past.
| @Otaku_guru Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to limit the question to Thorfinn's case specifically and hear what you have in mind. My views on "no one deserves to be killed or harmed": The show absolutely is saying that no one deserves to die and that everyone deserves a chance at forgiveness. And I do agree with this. The show doesn't even qualify the statement with "if and only if the offender is repentant and is asking for forgiveness," because if that's true, then a mad dog like Thorfinn should've been put down at any point during Season 1. If that happened, he would not have been able to do any of the good he did in Season 2 (and beyond). You say that Thorfinn should be allowed a second chance only if you knew that he repented. But no one can know what someone's really thinking and feeling, or what kind of person he/she will become in the future. In the beginning of Season 2, even Thorfinn himself did not believe that he deserved a second chance, or if he is even capable. The show simply shows Thorfinn's introspection and transformation, as a demonstration of how someone can become deserving of forgiveness and a second chance. However unlikely it is. Which leads back to the theme that no one should be robbed of the opportunity to atone and do better. |
perseiiJul 16, 7:44 PM
| It's ideal talk, you can't achieve this no enemy policy, there will always be some hatred in people or mutual misunderstanding leads to conflicts and if you're caught up with manga it started to show in story too. The idealism can be chased but never be achieved, thats what thorfinn is doing. |
Reply to Otaku_guru
perseii said:
@Otaku_guru Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to limit the question to Thorfinn's case specifically and hear what you have in mind.
My views on "no one deserves to be killed or harmed":
The show absolutely is saying that no one deserves to die and that everyone deserves a chance at forgiveness. And I do agree with this.
The show doesn't even qualify the statement with "if and only if the offender is repentant and is asking for forgiveness," because if that's true, then a mad dog like Thorfinn should've been put down at any point during Season 1. If that happened, he would not have been able to do any of the good he did in Season 2 (and beyond).
You say that Thorfinn should be allowed a second chance only if you knew that he repented. But no one can know what someone's really thinking and feeling, or what kind of person he/she will become in the future. In the beginning of Season 2, even Thorfinn himself did not believe that he deserved a second chance, or if he is even capable. The show simply shows Thorfinn's introspection and transformation, as a demonstration of how someone can become deserving of forgiveness and a second chance. However unlikely it is.
Which leads back to the theme that no one should be robbed of the opportunity to atone and do better.
@Otaku_guru Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to limit the question to Thorfinn's case specifically and hear what you have in mind.
My views on "no one deserves to be killed or harmed":
The show absolutely is saying that no one deserves to die and that everyone deserves a chance at forgiveness. And I do agree with this.
The show doesn't even qualify the statement with "if and only if the offender is repentant and is asking for forgiveness," because if that's true, then a mad dog like Thorfinn should've been put down at any point during Season 1. If that happened, he would not have been able to do any of the good he did in Season 2 (and beyond).
You say that Thorfinn should be allowed a second chance only if you knew that he repented. But no one can know what someone's really thinking and feeling, or what kind of person he/she will become in the future. In the beginning of Season 2, even Thorfinn himself did not believe that he deserved a second chance, or if he is even capable. The show simply shows Thorfinn's introspection and transformation, as a demonstration of how someone can become deserving of forgiveness and a second chance. However unlikely it is.
Which leads back to the theme that no one should be robbed of the opportunity to atone and do better.
That's why I said I somewhat agree with this. Bro see, reality doesn't work like that. I wrote my answer by putting real world mechanics in front of me. If you think like that then I am no one to critize. But you should and shouldn't implement it in real life and that's what I was trying to say in my thread.
It's true, many people can change after giving them a second chance. If I were a judge and there was just small case of robbery i would have given the thief a second chance or if there were any small cases i would be happy to give them a chance to repent and most of people would surely change after my second chance.
But are you willing to forgive a child raper? Are you willing to forgive murderer (Serial killer) who does murderes for fun? (I didn't want to say it but) Are you willing to forgive a person who raped your daughter or sister? Bro they need harsh punishment in order to become example for others. If you are willing to forgive them then they surely will stay put for a while and then they will be back at crimes again and society will not feel safe around them and this will give rise to other crimes.
That's why I mentioned some people deserve forgiveness and some don't. It totally depends on circumstances. If you know criminal feels guilty and you know he wants to repent then you can give him a second chance. But what about shameless criminals? Who don't even show a bit of guilty on their faces and enjoy killing or doing crimes.
Bro the world doesn't work like shown in anime. It totally depends on circumstances and the victim to forgive or punish criminal. We can't decide here and we are no one to decide. I hope I conveyed my message properly and you understood what I want to say.
Otaku_guru said: the world doesn't work like shown in anime. Of course. But then there's not much point in discussing "anime messaging" in the context of the real world at all, is there? That's why I tried to discuss those themes mostly within the show's "version" of the real world, because once we go beyond that, there will be no end to the philosophical/societal/spiritual debate... which you are free to engage in, but for me personally, not so much. But about what you said about "punishment": I'm not saying wrongdoing doesn't have to be punished. The show isn't saying that either; Thorfinn was sentenced to a life as a slave. Even if it was for attacking the king, from a storytelling perspective, Thorfinn was being punished for everything he's done. What would be the appropriate punishment for Thorfinn, anyway? The only fair punishment would be to get maimed and killed a hundred times over, which really doesn't help anybody and solve anything. Turning Thorfinn into a slave did have the benefit of stopping a violent murderer and giving him time to think and reform. The show focuses more on what the punishment is supposed to (and can) achieve beyond "making him pay for what he's done." It's not like Thorfinn "got off easy," either. He was in hell of his own making, to such a degree that even Einar relented and felt pity. Even by the end of Season 2, he is burdened with the responsibility (bordering on obsession) to help more people than he harmed. About "depends on circumstances": Of course. But like I said, it's not easy to tell whether someone is repentant or shameless. And it's impossible to tell whether someone will change for the better (or worse) in the future. Through Thorfinn, the show is only saying that we should not write anyone off as "too far gone" or even "doesn't deserve to live." I think this is an important ground rule regardless of circumstance, even if it's difficult or downright impossible to hold on to. The world already understands this to some degree; all criminals have a right to a defense in court, death penalty is illegal in some places, etc. |
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