Darling in the FranXX Episode 20 Discussion

joe_g7 said:
THIS IS AN ANIME ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS THE MANGA BEYOND THIS EPISODE.
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That was quite an aggressive kiss...

Aliens, eh? I heard this was very similar to Evangelion, but I haven't seen Eva yet...So, I can't say for sure...

CodeBlazeFate said:
They tried basically bringing together End of Eva and the second half of Gurren Lagann here. The whole wanting to merge everything into one starting with Earth is Eva while the purple aliens are Gurren Lagann. It was done poorly, coming out of nowhere (yes, Papa was obviously up to something of a betrayal, but it was so vague that they kinda could have done any sort of betrayal that didn't introduce outlandish new elements, and still make sense). Not to mention that nothing made sense at this point, so of course that trend of nothing functioning would apply in this episode.

joe_g7 said:
Ohh! I see. No wonder this episode ended up feeling so weird then. The whole alien thing just felt so out of left field. Good to know.

ZetaKai1219 said:
This is where things really start going downhill, if the last four episodes weren't enough. The show begins stealing concepts from other shows like Evangelion (The FranXX being modified klaxosaurs, APE's desires, etc.), and VIRM just appears out of NOWHERE.

ZetaKai1219 said:
Yeah the show already had Eva-like aspects, but during the final arc it threw a shit ton of it into our faces.

Hase0 said:
Hiro's mouth just got raped basically.

Can someone tell me why 02's blood is red now?

Hase0 said:
Hiro's mouth just got raped basically.

Can someone tell me why 02's blood is red now?

jkazuHako02Mar said:
It was red from episode 1. She only had blue blood when she was young dino girl(Eo To). Dont ask why they never explained when that happened.

Ariavartan said:


It was that way since the beginning since the first episode. Her child body has gone through lot of changes since. There was a scene in 13 where she appeared in a lab table bleeding red. Maybe she underwent experiments to blend in more.

CodeBlazeFate said:
Not to mention that this show officially took Gurren Lagann's series structure and basically remade that show's second arc by a million times worse.

Aplope said:

GL's structure? Fucks sake I heard retarded things but this one takes the spot. If I tell you about a certain Odyssey book trilogy your head might explode, right? The arrogance and ignorance mixed in this kind of comments is astounding.

CodeBlazeFate said:
This is one of the craziest, most bitter FranXX fanboy comments I've witnessed in a while.

I mean, it kinda does take from that arc, from the general events to the structure. Not that I would expect anything else when this show has already referenced and enacted the exact same plot points from Evangelion many times up until now, and some of the staff includes people who worked on Gurren Lagann. I can link you to something that expands on this: https://thecrimsoncolosseum.wordpress.com/2018/07/07/franxxs-flawed-replication-of-gurren-lagann-and-neon-genesis-evangelion-a-supplementary-piece/

Also, not really, I'm not being that arrogant here? At least, not compared to you, with your "nuh uh, this OTHER, less well-known in these particular circles, classic is the REAL comparison here" "if I tell you about THIS classic, your idiotic head will explode" pompous bullshit. I mean, I haven't read those books, but that does that negate the similarities between the final 9 episodes of FranXX and the last 11 episodes of Gurren Lagann? No. Does that suddenly make this episode - or the show for that matter, any better written? No. Does that mean they couldn't have possibly been heavily influenced by Eva and Gurren Lagann [i] as well as[/s] The Odyssey? No (and it's not like there's anything publicized on the whole Odyssey thing like there is for the references and similarities with the aforementioned Gainax shows). Just cuz you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there or that others can't (I have personally heard others who have on their own or thanks to what I linked above).

Also, it's cake, not spot. Come back when you take a chill. You're apeing out like Zero-Two did in episode 14.

Aplope said:


Yeah, I knew you had no idea... The space odyseey trilogy was a pioneer on the theme explored in those gainax shows. It's common culture by now, and it's 3 acts structure, the subsequent tonal changes and the grand oniric final has been used in hundreds of science fiction stories.

Saying that's in anyway unique or original to GL or EVA is the dumbest shit one can spew. That's sheer arrogance fueled by stupidity and ignorance.

Linking me to that toxic thread is even more hilarious. You think some ignorant circlejerking thread building on stuff none of you have a single idea about is proof of what?? That Franxx is a copy? That's bad for it? For coming later to the party and using the same literary sources as any of those "great anime classics"?

You speak of the shows writers and plot. What's your background on that field? What do you know of the 3 act structure? What was wrong with the incident exposition? Do you know what a characters arc really is and why it gets developed in the second act? Yeah, pretty sure's all mumbo jumbo to you... But hey, your circlejerking pals all agree with you the writting is shit so it must be true, right? I mean, how could it not, they broke that guy's heart and ruined my "ship". Shit show man, shit show, shit writting...

CodeBlazeFate said:
wow your levels of salt are enough to kill all the animals in the ocean. Your levels of toxicity would almost be considered laughable if they weren't so depressing.

Also, way to tell me absolutely nothing about the similarities between that novel trilogy and FranXX. I mean, does the final arc of this trilogy begin with the main character and friends getting used to a new living situation long after defeating an enemy at the climax of the first arc? Do aliens suddenly appear and tear everything to hell while the main character's GF is forced to deal with the purple anti-people alien threat by herself before the MC comes back with an even better mech to rescue her before they fight the final boss with an even bigger mech resembling one of the protagonists, in outer space? Yea, perhaps that trilogy was influential to Gainax. Wanna tell me how? You're the one arguing, or do you not wanna "enlighten" me and make me less "ignorant" cuz you wouldn't be "right"? Also, the 3 act structure is more of a film thing than a sci-fi thing, and even then, neither FranXX nor Gurren Lagan have 3 defined arcs. They have a longer first arc where something big happens in the halfway mark before slowing down and then picking up with the exact same threat and main plotline, and then they have a second arc that goes in a different direction (not in tone cuz umm...none of the arcs have an overall different tone from one another. Some episodes in each arc are more lighthearted, sure, but the arcs themselves aren't really bleaker or otherwise more tonally different from one another).

I mean, couldn't the same be applied to that trilogy? I mean, I guarentee other things inspired it before it became influential, just as it seemingly did Eva and Gurren Lagann before becoming popular. Also, way to not debunk how the Instrumentality Project plotline of Eva or the structure and sequence of events in episodes 17-27 of Gurren Lagann are not things they did before other shows directly took inspiration from them (especially Evangelion, since the term post-Eva exists for a reason, with shows like RahXephon, Brain Powerd, FranXX, and De;Vadassy taking heavy inspiration and lifting plotlines and whatnot directly from it --cuz no other anime did those exact same things before--, and shows like Geass R2 also borrowing from that specific show). I never said that stuff is unique to those shows. The fact that other shows have done those things since, automatically invalidates that claim.

Also, no, if you actually bothered reading and/or paying attention, it's not the sole act of using those same ideas and structures that makes FranXX bad. It's the act of surrounding them with bad writing that makes it not work. I mean, Gainax recycles shit from itself all the time and a fair amount of the time (from references to influences and ideas like one of the antagonists in a shady government organization having captured Adam and having it be the origin of their whole plan and whatnot), it doesn't fuck up that badly. Hell, even other shows that have taken from events from Evangelion, wholesale, didn't fuck up this badly (Code Geass R2 counts as an example). Also, that "coming later to the parting and using the same literary sources as any of those 'great anime classics'" line is one of the stupidest things I've read. You do know what taking ideas from influences and expanding on them means, right? Music does that all the time. Anime does that all the time. Evangelion famously expanded on elements of Ideon, specifically the second movie, and became its own classic for works like RahXephon to take inspiration from and take in a different direction that most people also liked (leading to a more positive consensus for it than fucking FranXX has). Again, it's not that FranXX took these ideas and attempted to work with them that made it bad in this regard. It's the execution of what it did with those ideas that's at fault. That blog you stubbornly and stupidly called "toxic" was not only looking at those similarities, but actively showing how one show did those things well, and one show did them poorly.

Wow, way to add in the "u and ur circlejerking pals" comment, as if your snobbish, violent, deflecting tendencies weren't made clear enough. I'd honestly be shouting "BINGO" with my "salty, ironically elitist, butthurt internet fanboy" card right now if I actually prepared such a thing. Also, man, way to assume I care about ships...let alone any of the ships in this show, which are comprised of characters devoid of any chemistry.

If you must know if I know anything about this, the 3 act stucture is something that is also commonly taught in film. The first 25% is act 1, which is mostly about the introduction and about setting up the arcs and conflicts surrounding your main character(s). Arc 2 can be seen as two halves: the half that's often about characters interacting more positively before the main conflict begins taking its toll (often establishing character dynamics and setups that weren't done in the introductory phase meant to intrigue and entice the viewer) and the half where the characters are left more vulnerable than ever and are forced to pick up the pieces. That's the next 50%. Finally, the third arc, where all of the payoffs happen, and when we get our climax, falling actions, and resolution. I have never went to film school personally, and I'm basing this off of channels like Nando V Movies and Lessons from Screenplay who have studied film in one way or another and constantly describe these kinds of things while discussing pop culture jugegrnauts like superhero movies. I'm not sure how this applies to books per se (I assume that the core idea isn't entirely absent in those either, and I guarantee that in some way, these things apply to some or most anime and TV shows --obviously not discounting anime or TV movies--). Also yea, obviously, no duh, final arcs or climaxes to a show taking place in space is a cultural thing and not something Gurren Lagan came up with. Most Gundam shows made their final acts in space (especially notable in Turn A Gundam, where we never really went to space until the final 7 or so episodes of the show). Southern Cross had its final act take place in space or at least a spaceship. End of Evangelion's final act is a mindfuck that takes place in space before everything literally collapses back onto planet earth. Planet With's final 2 episodes took place in space. SSSS.GRIDMAN had a sorta cyberspace in its final episodes. etc. but that's not the damn point.

You see how just by actually explaining things instead of going "REEEEE U CIRCLEJERKING IGNORAMUS U DON'T KNOW WHAT UR TALKING ABOUT; OBVIOUSLY X DID IT FIRST LEMME GIVE YOU BRIEF THINGS ABOUT IT THAT AREN'T EVEN RELEVANT TO THIS SHOW AS FAR AS YOU KNOW BECAUSE I REFUSE TO ACTUALLY EXPLAIN IT OR REALY LINK IT BACK TO THE TOPIC", you can actually sound like you know even a little bit of what you're talking about instead of coming off like the spiteful and arrogant fanboy and petulant child that you are?

Aplope said:


You base all of those "doing well, doing bad" statements on argument depictions... How on earth do you want me to explain anything to you when you're utterly clueless on the points made and general writting aptitudes. You compare script writting with plot devices. You're like the guy telling the mechanic what to do without having a clue about it. You want me to go point by point countering every single shit statement you made? I wouldn't finish...

How is 2000 Odyseey in Space related to the gainax series (or Franxx) you say? I already told you, you mongrel, the 3 act structure (depiction, character development, climax), the tonal change (dramatic comedy as reliefs), the monomyths (the hero's path in all these series are stickers)... You don't compare similarities by pointing out to argument pieces. Saying Franxx is a ripoff because of the dodgy organisation is the dumbest shit I ever heard. Building on that is building on a falacy. By that logic you could argue Romeo and Juliet is a ripoff off Celestina or that Shakespeare was Calisto and Melibea's pussy version.

The space "acts"... What are you on? I didn't mention the space odyseey to make any point about the settings of the final acts... Failing to grasp the basics of the conversation. The space setting is irrelevant. That's just another plot device.

And no, what you believe to be the 3 act structure has nothing to do with it. You're 3 act depiction is a sorry wikipedia monomyth's entry or, probably, some variant used in script writting. Here's a hint for you. When you try to study such an old, complex and well documented piece of academic knowledge like for examole, a fking literary structure, a 2 page wikipedia entry ain't worth shit. A 10 min analysis on a movie ain't worth much more either. Read about the paradigm of Syd Fried or Berkley's script devices. Then, you come back and tell me how the basic structure of Franxx is based on GL and not on an universally taught academic piece of knowledge...

And we could argue even further on how the intersection in GL makes two very distimctive tonal acts whereas theres nothing of sorts in Franxx... The pacing is also very different between the 2 shows... GL is an "in crescendo" type while Franxx is a wavelength type. Basically, the shows build on the same classic structure, have different tones, pacing, but share some plot devices and settings, and yeah, some cultural references. There's no case standing for Franxx being a ripoff of GL, or, in the same manner, any other space opera anime. The same thing gets argued with the Lion King and Kimba or Matrix and Ghost in The Shell. It's complete nonsense.

Anyway, I'm done with you. You've clearly shown you have no ground to stand on. You even fail to see how "toxic" your demeanor is and just write it off with a childish "no, you're more". You know nothing about "writting" yet you go on about lecturing others. You're the living depiction of an obtuse toxic dimwit unable to realize when circumstances exceed oneself. You can have an opinion but if justified with illinformed facts, it becomes meaningless. You're capital letters rants are funny tough. Take the hint already and stop making a fool of yourself. People will read you.

CodeBlazeFate said:
Ok, you finally expanded on what the hell the 3 act structure is in literature...now actually try applying that to FranXX and Gurren Lagann in particular. You’re the one arguing and trying to put me down as a clueless halfwit. Enlighten me. Humor me. Actually showcase what you’re takking about and apply it for me and onlookers to see. Also, the “depiction, character development, climax” structure is —surprise surprise— not what I meant. I mean, now I actually know what you’re referring to (how the hell was I supposed to if you’re just gonna spout off terminology you claim to he related withot actually making the effort to relate them? Of course I’d assume that you meant the film 3 act stucture and that you were talking about how the idea of going to space for the final arc was my issue), I can still say that this applies to almost every story that has “character development” (most commonly when looking at individual episodes and especially episodic series more so that series with overarching narratives, which generally do still have them). If you assume that’s what I was basing everything of and saying that the use of this technique makes a show a ripoff, then almost every show or movie ever would he a ripoff by such flawed logic. It’s just a shame that has almost no bearibg on my original argument and what I feel FranXX took inspiration from and tried to build from poorly. Yea the idea of a shady organization isn’t inherently new (cuz then I’d call everything a ripoff of 1984 and find out that 1984 was a ripoff of a ripoff if a ripoff of a ripoff), but specifically private government figureheads trying to instigate a project using some biblical entity as part of thr lynchpin for merging humanity into one, that’s something many works have expressly and historically taken from Evangelion (assuming that wasn’t something Eva took from Ideon since I haven’t seen it). Yea FranXX does take that in a different direction with the idea that humanity should bexome one with a separate evil entity and not just become one in and of itself, but my point still stands that it took that idea and did it poorly. This isn’t about what literary device you refuse to link to the shows at hand, it’s about specific plot points. Tonal shifts? Again, I mention that in these shows, it doesn’t happen arc to arc, it happens scene to scene and sometimes episode to episode. If you can at least attempt to shoecsse otherwise, that would be great.

Funny how you call me toxic when all you’ve done is write me off, call me as many names as you can think of, condescend, antagonize, and belittle me, and just act like a white-knight spouting off terms he got from Wikipedia or his Lit 101 notes while only vaguely telling me said terms relate to Gainax and these shows in some way without actually telling me what ways they are like I’m telling you exactly what ways these shows are related. Irony had become an ironclad vowel! Excuse me for comparing your actions to that of a rabid fanboy who wants to sound smart citing off all the books he read and expecting me to fill in all the pieces myself without even getting much of an idea how they’re connected. I mean, now you tell me to read shit but again, that’s your joh as the argumentor to at least provide me a direct link or quote from, and again, if you read what I linked, I talked about the direct sequences of events (hell, I’ve done so in my previous comment) and how they are directly related. If they really were tropes and devices, there would be more shows and works of fiction doing those exact same events and sequences. If you’re gonna claim that they are, give me direct examples on the matter. Oh wait, that wouldn’t be vague enough to stop me from being “clueless”. Also, perhaps apply some devices from film and television, given that’s the medium this show is in...animated television. Also, I know when I’m being toxic. Unlike you, I have enough self-awareness to understand when I’m being a prick. If mocking your hateful attitude and behavior and criticizing a show you claim I have no business criticizing is toxic, then fuck, I’d hate to see what your actions would be labeled as.

Also, we’re clogging up this (admittedly dead) forum, so if you would be a dear and take this somewhere else, that’d be great.

AniMEHLover said:
Chill guys!! You're making me scroll so hard xD.