Rascal Does Not Dream of Bunny Girl Senpai (light novel)
Reply to FutoiOtaku
Oni_Zokuchou said:
I think you're conflating quality with target audience there. if you judge a piece of media purely on its own merits and not just as another work in a specific medium you get a more objective view on the work. in a vacuum, or to a bilingual individual who can appreciate both works equally, the English dub is better because these English-speaking characters in an American period piece have accurate voice acting that elevates the source material. I say judging anime purely on it's value to japanese consumers is undervaluing the medium. This also gets messy because what about Anime produced for a global market with multiple languages used at their inception (or even dubbed first) like Afro Samurai, Space Dandy or Star Wars Visions? They specifically *don't* have a Japanese audience as they were produced and premiered globally (with Afro Samurai specifically being made around Samuel L Jackson). Your target audience measure of quality doesn't work for these Anime.
As for your example, the *quality* of the voice work matters more than the "target audience"'s language of origin in that instance, but also, a good marvel movie is appreciated globally because of it's quality. Shiang-Chi had Chinese language in it, it elevated the experience because it gave legitimacy and depth to the world it was portraying.
It's fine saying you have a preference for one over the other but it's not an objective standard of quality that subs are better outright. Some shows are better subbed, some dubbed. It's more nuanced.
FutoiOtaku said:
I accept that as valid to a degree, but not completely. If marvel made a movie set in china and made the whole thing spoken in Chinese with English dub, it wouldn’t make sense given the market would be mostly English speakers. Why would the Japanese do it the other way round? But your argument is that the dub is better for an English audience and I can’t say you’re wrong but I personally prefer the Japanese version.
I accept that as valid to a degree, but not completely. If marvel made a movie set in china and made the whole thing spoken in Chinese with English dub, it wouldn’t make sense given the market would be mostly English speakers. Why would the Japanese do it the other way round? But your argument is that the dub is better for an English audience and I can’t say you’re wrong but I personally prefer the Japanese version.
I think you're conflating quality with target audience there. if you judge a piece of media purely on its own merits and not just as another work in a specific medium you get a more objective view on the work. in a vacuum, or to a bilingual individual who can appreciate both works equally, the English dub is better because these English-speaking characters in an American period piece have accurate voice acting that elevates the source material. I say judging anime purely on it's value to japanese consumers is undervaluing the medium. This also gets messy because what about Anime produced for a global market with multiple languages used at their inception (or even dubbed first) like Afro Samurai, Space Dandy or Star Wars Visions? They specifically *don't* have a Japanese audience as they were produced and premiered globally (with Afro Samurai specifically being made around Samuel L Jackson). Your target audience measure of quality doesn't work for these Anime.
As for your example, the *quality* of the voice work matters more than the "target audience"'s language of origin in that instance, but also, a good marvel movie is appreciated globally because of it's quality. Shiang-Chi had Chinese language in it, it elevated the experience because it gave legitimacy and depth to the world it was portraying.
It's fine saying you have a preference for one over the other but it's not an objective standard of quality that subs are better outright. Some shows are better subbed, some dubbed. It's more nuanced.
It’s not entirely wrong the way you see it, but personally from the viewpoint of a Japanese language student of 4 years, the translation of Japanese to English or indeed any Latin based language, is always a case of localisation rather than translation due to the enormous lack of compatibility between the two. Japanese sentence structure is unique to east Asia. The English dubs (and subs tbf) never convey the true meaning of what is said in Japanese and due to American English localisation a lot of the Japanese cultural aspects are watered down or lost. The 80’s and 90’s anime that made it to mass broadcast in the west just come across as cartoons as a result. So while I support dub as previously stated as a way of making anime more widely accessible, I don’t accept the possibility of dub as being able to improve over the original.
| @FutoiOtaku sorry you're ENTIRELY wrong with the 80's and 90's anime. i grew up in the US with a TINY FRACTION of the anime available today back in the 90's when i got started in 1990 with Harmony Gold's first 2 VHS Tapes of ROBOTECH. no matter what you think about the massive edits and changes to the Macross and SDF anime that HG did... the production value of their work was stellar. so was the OVA dub which INCLUDED the Japanese with subs for the first Tenchi Muyo series (which i own on disk). if in the 90's you could FIND anime on DVD... BOTH vocal tracks were on the disks, just like today. so owners had a choice (like today) between the two. the first OVA series of 'Oh! My Goddess' did the same thing Tenchi Muyo's disks did in the US. i own those disks as well. the only 'cartoons' we got 'back then' were the sanitized 4Kids Yugioh and Card Captor Sakura series and the first few seasons of Pokemon. when Funimation's first EVER project tried syndicated TV BROADCASTS of Dragonball they were 'barely' edited just enough to follow US FCC rules. like the episode where tiny/young Goku who still had his tail and Bulma went into the bushes to urinate and suchforth. that episode was VERY edited. Voltron was edited pretty hard... but even today with 'grey web streaming' it is damn hard to find the ORIGINAL Japanese version to compare the two. then there were the animated in Japan 'projects' like the originally created and supposedly only to be released in France, Inspector Gadget. that one was created purposefully with that style of art and storytelling. but i totally agree with your points on translations and localizations, it just isn't easy. but the differences between the two media? unless you're highly experienced, an academic, or bilingual and bi-cultural? more than half the folks i've interacted with about anime... they really don't NEED all that depth and intense nuance. and if they want the nuance of the native language? all folks have to do is flip over to the subs and try those out. :) |
KiliianSleipnirDec 4, 2024 11:27 PM
just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either.  |
FutoiOtaku said: @ejleon I’ll just address the obvious issue you raised first to keep things in smaller chunks and not have huge essays in the thread, but your understanding of my dissing the American accent seems to be a misunderstanding. My point is that in Japanese culture, young women are encouraged to use high pitched tones to be feminine and unthreatening to males, as there is still a fair amount of misogyny in the country. But when American VAs use similarly high tones it doesn’t sound natural, even childish, as American girls aren’t raised with the same affectation. I’m not troubled by American accents, only the unnatural childishness of the female characters. I agree that a lot of American VAs of both genders (please no arguments about how many genders I’m expected to accept) do good work, but I stand by my BELIEF which I’m not trying to force on you, just share, that the Japanese writers and producers choose the right seiyuu in most cases and from an audio point of view based on inflection, emotional portrayal and many other factors there can be no improvement. And to answer your question I speak basic Japanese but not well enough to listen and translate in real time so the subs are still essential to me. I will one day watch raw… Sorry about the long comment. 😅🤦🏻♂️ Thank you for explaining your thinking further, I really appreciate this. I never felt like you were forcing anything, just having a discussion of the topic. That is an aspect of the Japanese culture I was not aware of, so it would be a factor in choosing voice actors, and it would affect how they sound. But for American Voice Actors, they don’t have that cultural tradition, so they should have more freedom in what they do for their voice acting, which brings up a good question as to their choices. And I agree that there are only two. 😉 |
Note: I don’t lazily watch 3-5 episodes, biasedly compare to other anime, or unfairly judge by surface level similarities. With every anime I start, I watch the entire series, both Japanese Sub & English Dub, then judge each anime based on what they present, to give an honest and fair rating.  |
| The original VA cast is pretty great but it is really nice to see this wonderful work being finally dubbed for people who prefer to watch that way :) |
Ripperdoc said: ejleon said: That really depends, I watch both the subs and dubs of the anime in my “completed list”. There are subs that are done better than the dubs. There are also dubs that are done better than the subs. Then there are subs / dubs that equally good in quality. This has been my experience with anime. Give me some examples where dub was better than sub. I have never watched a single dubbed episode and it will stay like that, but I am just curious. Beck: Rather than listen to Japanese people trying endlessly to pass themselves off as English speakers, just watch English speakers. |
Reply to FutoiOtaku
@ejleon Glad we’re on the same page, I know we can never see things the same, the actual cultural differences between England and America are a real thing. Like you said, a lot of British humour and general linguistics don’t make sense to you and it goes both ways. That’s one of the reasons I don’t have time for dubs. I enjoy American movies because they’re about mostly Americans so the voices are natural and couldn’t work any other way. Imagine Fast and Furious dubbed with proper London or Glasgow accents, it would be hilarious. So shifting a Japanese movie or series into American, not just accents but localised translations too, twists the cultural identity beyond my being able to accept it. The characters come across as fully American kids in Japan. From an English perspective, imposing one foreign culture on another isn’t good. And answering something you mentioned earlier, there are not UK English dubs!
Even with shows set in the uk like Ancient Magus’ Bride, the characters still behave with Japanese decorum and morals, so I prefer them voiced in that language.
It makes me laugh like anyone else when animes show actual American and British characters speaking English with subs in Japanese when the English is read by someone who probably only learned English in school and sounds truly awful if that helps?
Even with shows set in the uk like Ancient Magus’ Bride, the characters still behave with Japanese decorum and morals, so I prefer them voiced in that language.
It makes me laugh like anyone else when animes show actual American and British characters speaking English with subs in Japanese when the English is read by someone who probably only learned English in school and sounds truly awful if that helps?
| @FutoiOtaku I can imagine a British comedic parody of "Fast & Furious", now that might be good. 😂 Just Kidding I understand what you mean, but I wouldn't go so far as to say, "we can never see things the same", it really depends on the topic. I also crack up at their attempts to speak other languages, like American or British english. This was a good talk, thank you very much. Hope all the best. |
| Note: I don’t lazily watch 3-5 episodes, biasedly compare to other anime, or unfairly judge by surface level similarities. With every anime I start, I watch the entire series, both Japanese Sub & English Dub, then judge each anime based on what they present, to give an honest and fair rating. |
| Another Anime being desecrated by cultural appropation. At least dubs are not supported by most Anime fans and only corporate media are the ones who want dub stuff which in this case came too late. |
NurguburuDec 5, 2024 12:59 PM
| BANZAI NIPPON. Nippon is the Land of freedom. Nippon is the Land of Peace. Nippon is the Land of Justice and Prosperity. In Nippon, we trust. We love Nippon, we love Anime. Anime love us, Nippon love us. 日本 |
Reply to FutoiOtaku
KiliianSleipnir said:
@FutoiOtaku sorry you're ENTIRELY wrong with the 80's and 90's anime. i grew up in the US with a TINY FRACTION of the anime available today back in the 90's when i got started in 1990 with Harmony Gold's first 2 VHS Tapes of ROBOTECH. no matter what you think about the massive edits and changes to the Macross and SDF anime that HG did... the production value of their work was stellar. so was the OVA dub which INCLUDED the Japanese with subs for the first Tenchi Muyo series (which i own on disk). if in the 90's you could FIND anime on DVD... BOTH vocal tracks were on the disks, just like today. so owners had a choice (like today) between the two. the first OVA series of 'Oh! My Goddess' did the same thing Tenchi Muyo's disks did in the US. i own those disks as well.
the only 'cartoons' we got 'back then' were the sanitized 4Kids Yugioh and Card Captor Sakura series and the first few seasons of Pokemon. when Funimation's first EVER project tried syndicated TV BROADCASTS of Dragonball they were 'barely' edited just enough to follow US FCC rules. like the episode where tiny/young Goku who still had his tail and Bulma went into the bushes to urinate and suchforth. that episode was VERY edited. Voltron was edited pretty hard... but even today with 'grey web streaming' it is damn hard to find the ORIGINAL Japanese version to compare the two. then there were the animated in Japan 'projects' like the originally created and supposedly only to be released in France, Inspector Gadget. that one was created purposefully with that style of art and storytelling.
but i totally agree with your points on translations and localizations, it just isn't easy. but the differences between the two media? unless you're highly experienced, an academic, or bilingual and bi-cultural? more than half the folks i've interacted with about anime... they really don't NEED all that depth and intense nuance. and if they want the nuance of the native language? all folks have to do is flip over to the subs and try those out. :)
@FutoiOtaku sorry you're ENTIRELY wrong with the 80's and 90's anime. i grew up in the US with a TINY FRACTION of the anime available today back in the 90's when i got started in 1990 with Harmony Gold's first 2 VHS Tapes of ROBOTECH. no matter what you think about the massive edits and changes to the Macross and SDF anime that HG did... the production value of their work was stellar. so was the OVA dub which INCLUDED the Japanese with subs for the first Tenchi Muyo series (which i own on disk). if in the 90's you could FIND anime on DVD... BOTH vocal tracks were on the disks, just like today. so owners had a choice (like today) between the two. the first OVA series of 'Oh! My Goddess' did the same thing Tenchi Muyo's disks did in the US. i own those disks as well.
the only 'cartoons' we got 'back then' were the sanitized 4Kids Yugioh and Card Captor Sakura series and the first few seasons of Pokemon. when Funimation's first EVER project tried syndicated TV BROADCASTS of Dragonball they were 'barely' edited just enough to follow US FCC rules. like the episode where tiny/young Goku who still had his tail and Bulma went into the bushes to urinate and suchforth. that episode was VERY edited. Voltron was edited pretty hard... but even today with 'grey web streaming' it is damn hard to find the ORIGINAL Japanese version to compare the two. then there were the animated in Japan 'projects' like the originally created and supposedly only to be released in France, Inspector Gadget. that one was created purposefully with that style of art and storytelling.
but i totally agree with your points on translations and localizations, it just isn't easy. but the differences between the two media? unless you're highly experienced, an academic, or bilingual and bi-cultural? more than half the folks i've interacted with about anime... they really don't NEED all that depth and intense nuance. and if they want the nuance of the native language? all folks have to do is flip over to the subs and try those out. :)
And yet again you call me wrong by discussing something entirely different to the opinion I expressed. I specifically referred to TELEVISED ANIME not VHS or DVD with language choices. But I’m glad you engaged with proper well thought out sentences in your last message, rather than flippant dismissal based on your own lack of comprehension. There’s some interesting info on the evolution of the western perception of anime that saved me from writing you off as an argumentative moron. If you engaged in a less abrasive manner, I’m willing to listen to your views and maybe even accept some of them, I’m not so egotistical that I think I’m always right. I join these conversations to widen my understanding, not preach my opinions as fact. As a footnote, your last line about subs is not entirely right as subs and subs wander from the original dialogue significantly therefore the only true way to watch any foreign language media is to learn the language. Not practical I know, but the inflections and vocalisation techniques in Japanese can never be represented in English or any other Latin based language. I don’t underestimate the value of subs, but I uphold firmly my belief that subs are the purest form of anime for a westerner.
| @FutoiOtaku "but the inflections and vocalisation techniques in Japanese can never be represented in English or any other Latin based language." that is entirely incorrect. the phonics in Japanese are EASILY re-created... they themselves use romanji and kanji to pronounce and write foreign language words they need to borrow and phonically write Japanese words in English. "but I uphold firmly my belief that subs are the purest form of anime for a westerner." there you have contradicted yourself entirely. "subs and subs wander from the original dialogue significantly" no they don't BTW. that is part of interpreting and localization. Spanish has a different sentence structure than English and English doesn't have the masculine and feminine word forms. so translating the two back and forth requires changes. the meaning and intent and content of a statement (as long as it isn't full of nuance, unique cultural references, slang etc.) can be spoken and written in multiple languages. otherwise, translators wouldn't exist, international trade would be improbable, and nobody would import anything made outside of their language base... because they couldn't read the technical manual. don't forget, that is Romantic Languages (which includes Greek) not Latinate ones... televised? wow. you missed my references to Voltron, Pokemon, Card Captor, Yugioh, and Dragonball? all were broadcast pre 2000, dubbed not subbed. that's five titles. none were 'cartoons', they were anime. the art styles were not altered etc. just the content altered due to US FCC rules, laws, and regulations, and they were dubbed. so, did i miss any other anime titles BROADCAST on TV in the US pre-2000? cable doesn't count, that isn't emitted via radio waves from antenna. oh and to flip your arguments on their heads? how about the Subtitling and Dubbing the Japanese do of world media, writings, movies, TV series etc? i forget his name... but one popular male anime JVA has been the Japanese voice of Peter Parker/Spider Man since the original 1990's Marvel TV series and has been the go-to JVA to JDub the character all the way through the MCU features etc. there is a female multi-lingual (since she grew up overseas) anime JVA who records multiple language public announcements for Japanese busses, trains, shopping centers, doors, elevators. 'CdawgVA' i think is his ID on YouTube, is a Welshman who lives in Japan doing English voiceover work. Christopher Broad 'AbroadInJapan' on YT is an Englishman and was originally hired and moved to Japan as an English instructor in the classroom for Japanese high school students. Mr. Broad went full expat and stayed in Japan for more than 10 years now. he and his wife (an American ?i think? working in Japan) bought an old bar in Tokyo, had it renovated, reopened, and have been operating most of 2024. not to mention the entirety of the Japanese Diplomatic Corps working around the world speaking multiple languages and writing fluently in them. you didn't study much of the history of logic in school, did you? twisted pseudo logic? look up Plato's "Allegory of the Cave," that was clearly what i was using there. if some human is never exposed to something, they have no frame of reference for it. therefore, somebody that's never watched subtitled anime and only watched dubbed will always think dub is what there is and is therefore superior. |
| just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either. |
Reply to Bejitto
Nah bruh can’t believe you really said this
| @Bejitto believe it, learn it, accept it. you don't like it? tough. because they are both equally valid. you want to eat veggies like a herbivore? totally valid diet. you want to omnivore it and eat meat n veg? totally valid too. neither sub nor dub is INHERENTLY inferior or superior at. their. core. saying sub is better than dub is like saying a painting done with watercolors is superior to the exact same artist re-creating the same picture but using oil-based paints instead. they're both art. they both depict a bowl of fruit or something. they just do it in slightly different ways. |
| just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either. |
Reply to Yui_Suzumiya69
| @Yui_Suzumiya69 whoops! my bad! i thought it was the first one of the 3 movies to get one. :) thanks! |
| just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either. |
Reply to FutoiOtaku
@ejleon Glad we’re on the same page, I know we can never see things the same, the actual cultural differences between England and America are a real thing. Like you said, a lot of British humour and general linguistics don’t make sense to you and it goes both ways. That’s one of the reasons I don’t have time for dubs. I enjoy American movies because they’re about mostly Americans so the voices are natural and couldn’t work any other way. Imagine Fast and Furious dubbed with proper London or Glasgow accents, it would be hilarious. So shifting a Japanese movie or series into American, not just accents but localised translations too, twists the cultural identity beyond my being able to accept it. The characters come across as fully American kids in Japan. From an English perspective, imposing one foreign culture on another isn’t good. And answering something you mentioned earlier, there are not UK English dubs!
Even with shows set in the uk like Ancient Magus’ Bride, the characters still behave with Japanese decorum and morals, so I prefer them voiced in that language.
It makes me laugh like anyone else when animes show actual American and British characters speaking English with subs in Japanese when the English is read by someone who probably only learned English in school and sounds truly awful if that helps?
Even with shows set in the uk like Ancient Magus’ Bride, the characters still behave with Japanese decorum and morals, so I prefer them voiced in that language.
It makes me laugh like anyone else when animes show actual American and British characters speaking English with subs in Japanese when the English is read by someone who probably only learned English in school and sounds truly awful if that helps?
| @FutoiOtaku grit your teeth, Unbreakable Machine Doll and their British accents in the English dub. ear grating to even an American like myself. Engrish Japanese voice talents. heh! mhm not like Funimation during covid didn't create and perfect the 'Dub From Home' technology so that the anime studios overseas can... oh i don't know... hire Americans and Brits and have THOSE talents for those specific characters record the lines. :) without having to fly to Japan and sit in one of their booths? |
| just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either. |
Reply to Nurguburu
Another Anime being desecrated by cultural appropation. At least dubs are not supported by most Anime fans and only corporate media are the ones who want dub stuff which in this case came too late.
| @Nurguburu Tinfoil Hat Brigade member right there. 7 different languages for Subs n Dubs on Crunchy alone. are all those folks in Russia and India and the Spanish and Portuguese speaking countries and all the other places... going to back you up? i doubt it. heck if i know what languages HULU and Netflix are using but i bet there will be many. hoooh boy! cultural appropriation! mhm. gotta throw out those hotbutton meaningless terms freshly minted by the Social Justice Warriors. i wonder where those folks were when Blues and Ragtime and Zydeco music were spreading out around the world. hey, am i culturally appropriating the Germans when i enjoy some Wagner? is the cellist Yo-Yo Ma a French-born to Chinese parents culturally appropriating everything and anything he ever plays that isn't Chinese or French? i guess folks like you want to just stick in one spot, not go anywhere, not do anything, and not enjoy themselves in any way JIC you'll be appropriating anybody else's culture. make sure you don't eat any pasta! you'll be culturally appropriating those lovely folks in China that thought it up first. |
| just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either. |
Reply to Bejitto
KiliianSleipnir said:
@Bejitto believe it, learn it, accept it. you don't like it? tough. because they are both equally valid. you want to eat veggies like a herbivore? totally valid diet. you want to omnivore it and eat meat n veg? totally valid too. neither sub nor dub is INHERENTLY inferior or superior at. their. core. saying sub is better than dub is like saying a painting done with watercolors is superior to the exact same artist re-creating the same picture but using oil-based paints instead. they're both art. they both depict a bowl of fruit or something. they just do it in slightly different ways.
@Bejitto believe it, learn it, accept it. you don't like it? tough. because they are both equally valid. you want to eat veggies like a herbivore? totally valid diet. you want to omnivore it and eat meat n veg? totally valid too. neither sub nor dub is INHERENTLY inferior or superior at. their. core. saying sub is better than dub is like saying a painting done with watercolors is superior to the exact same artist re-creating the same picture but using oil-based paints instead. they're both art. they both depict a bowl of fruit or something. they just do it in slightly different ways.
Now that’s the part where you are wrong, they are not the same artist since Japanese seiyū are awesome meanwhile eng dubbers are quiet bad
| @Bejitto no they're not quite bad. otherwise, folks like Christopher Sabbat and Jamie Marchi and Stephanie Sheh amongst a whole gaggle of voiceover talents... wouldn't still be working in the field 20+ years later. |
| just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either. |
Reply to FutoiOtaku
KiliianSleipnir said:
@FutoiOtaku "but the inflections and vocalisation techniques in Japanese can never be represented in English or any other Latin based language." that is entirely incorrect. the phonics in Japanese are EASILY re-created... they themselves use romanji and kanji to pronounce and write foreign language words they need to borrow and phonically write Japanese words in English.
"but I uphold firmly my belief that subs are the purest form of anime for a westerner." there you have contradicted yourself entirely. "subs and subs wander from the original dialogue significantly" no they don't BTW. that is part of interpreting and localization. Spanish has a different sentence structure than English and English doesn't have the masculine and feminine word forms. so translating the two back and forth requires changes. the meaning and intent and content of a statement (as long as it isn't full of nuance, unique cultural references, slang etc.) can be spoken and written in multiple languages. otherwise, translators wouldn't exist, international trade would be improbable, and nobody would import anything made outside of their language base... because they couldn't read the technical manual.
don't forget, that is Romantic Languages (which includes Greek) not Latinate ones...
televised? wow. you missed my references to Voltron, Pokemon, Card Captor, Yugioh, and Dragonball? all were broadcast pre 2000, dubbed not subbed. that's five titles. none were 'cartoons', they were anime. the art styles were not altered etc. just the content altered due to US FCC rules, laws, and regulations, and they were dubbed.
so, did i miss any other anime titles BROADCAST on TV in the US pre-2000? cable doesn't count, that isn't emitted via radio waves from antenna.
oh and to flip your arguments on their heads? how about the Subtitling and Dubbing the Japanese do of world media, writings, movies, TV series etc? i forget his name... but one popular male anime JVA has been the Japanese voice of Peter Parker/Spider Man since the original 1990's Marvel TV series and has been the go-to JVA to JDub the character all the way through the MCU features etc. there is a female multi-lingual (since she grew up overseas) anime JVA who records multiple language public announcements for Japanese busses, trains, shopping centers, doors, elevators. 'CdawgVA' i think is his ID on YouTube, is a Welshman who lives in Japan doing English voiceover work. Christopher Broad 'AbroadInJapan' on YT is an Englishman and was originally hired and moved to Japan as an English instructor in the classroom for Japanese high school students. Mr. Broad went full expat and stayed in Japan for more than 10 years now. he and his wife (an American ?i think? working in Japan) bought an old bar in Tokyo, had it renovated, reopened, and have been operating most of 2024.
not to mention the entirety of the Japanese Diplomatic Corps working around the world speaking multiple languages and writing fluently in them.
you didn't study much of the history of logic in school, did you? twisted pseudo logic? look up Plato's "Allegory of the Cave," that was clearly what i was using there. if some human is never exposed to something, they have no frame of reference for it. therefore, somebody that's never watched subtitled anime and only watched dubbed will always think dub is what there is and is therefore superior.
@FutoiOtaku "but the inflections and vocalisation techniques in Japanese can never be represented in English or any other Latin based language." that is entirely incorrect. the phonics in Japanese are EASILY re-created... they themselves use romanji and kanji to pronounce and write foreign language words they need to borrow and phonically write Japanese words in English.
"but I uphold firmly my belief that subs are the purest form of anime for a westerner." there you have contradicted yourself entirely. "subs and subs wander from the original dialogue significantly" no they don't BTW. that is part of interpreting and localization. Spanish has a different sentence structure than English and English doesn't have the masculine and feminine word forms. so translating the two back and forth requires changes. the meaning and intent and content of a statement (as long as it isn't full of nuance, unique cultural references, slang etc.) can be spoken and written in multiple languages. otherwise, translators wouldn't exist, international trade would be improbable, and nobody would import anything made outside of their language base... because they couldn't read the technical manual.
don't forget, that is Romantic Languages (which includes Greek) not Latinate ones...
televised? wow. you missed my references to Voltron, Pokemon, Card Captor, Yugioh, and Dragonball? all were broadcast pre 2000, dubbed not subbed. that's five titles. none were 'cartoons', they were anime. the art styles were not altered etc. just the content altered due to US FCC rules, laws, and regulations, and they were dubbed.
so, did i miss any other anime titles BROADCAST on TV in the US pre-2000? cable doesn't count, that isn't emitted via radio waves from antenna.
oh and to flip your arguments on their heads? how about the Subtitling and Dubbing the Japanese do of world media, writings, movies, TV series etc? i forget his name... but one popular male anime JVA has been the Japanese voice of Peter Parker/Spider Man since the original 1990's Marvel TV series and has been the go-to JVA to JDub the character all the way through the MCU features etc. there is a female multi-lingual (since she grew up overseas) anime JVA who records multiple language public announcements for Japanese busses, trains, shopping centers, doors, elevators. 'CdawgVA' i think is his ID on YouTube, is a Welshman who lives in Japan doing English voiceover work. Christopher Broad 'AbroadInJapan' on YT is an Englishman and was originally hired and moved to Japan as an English instructor in the classroom for Japanese high school students. Mr. Broad went full expat and stayed in Japan for more than 10 years now. he and his wife (an American ?i think? working in Japan) bought an old bar in Tokyo, had it renovated, reopened, and have been operating most of 2024.
not to mention the entirety of the Japanese Diplomatic Corps working around the world speaking multiple languages and writing fluently in them.
you didn't study much of the history of logic in school, did you? twisted pseudo logic? look up Plato's "Allegory of the Cave," that was clearly what i was using there. if some human is never exposed to something, they have no frame of reference for it. therefore, somebody that's never watched subtitled anime and only watched dubbed will always think dub is what there is and is therefore superior.
I honestly never saw so much bullshit. You may have majored in psychology and think yourself superior in some way and see it as a challenge to prove yourself right even when wrong, but your entire essay is an exercise in twisting facts to fit your argument. Your opinion on translating Japanese is simply ridiculous for starters, English cannot be represented fully in any Japanese kana and less so in kanji. Kanji represents Chinese words or Japanese phonemes depending if you use the onyomi or kunyomi reading, the onyomi readings themselves not often being pronounceable using the English syllabary.
Then there is katakana, the way to express English loan words in Japanese. This syllabary has many omissions of necessary sounds to speak English. There is no way to write or pronounce many English words without significant progress studying English (which not many Japanese achieve). There is no way to say the sounds sea, tea, lee, and many others. Also no word can end with a consonant except n. That rules out a lot of English words, probably over half. The mechanisms adopted to deal with this leave the writing of English in Japanese ‘letters’ to be a very approximate thing that sounds only slightly like the original when spoken. Like roado (road obviously) or teemu (theme less obviously). Sentences like biru wa takai can either mean the building is tall or the beer is expensive because the word biru used for building is abbreviated from bi-ru-di-n-gu. Doesn’t sound very English but that’s as close as Japanese allows. English has 4,800 one syllable sounds. Japanese has 118. Go figure. And that’s the tip of the iceberg.
But of course you think you look cool steamrolling the truth with your narcissistic stupidity and declaring that it’s easy to directly translate. Just stop before you make yourself look any more idiotic than you already do.
| @FutoiOtaku "but the inflections and vocalisation techniques in Japanese can never be represented in English or any other Latin based language." NEVER ... right there ^ plain as day. then you backpedal and get specific. finally. thanks for the translation lessons. last i checked English was a National Curriculum Required Course from Year 6-11 for Japanese students. hopefully they reach some form of "significant progress studying English (which not many Japanese achieve)." during those six years. but it has been over a decade since i directly face-to-face worked with any Japanese folks, things might have changed. i was quite close and rubbed elbows with several technical representatives from both Nissan and Honda NA sometimes thrice weekly. depending on how good or bad the car-parts factory i worked in supplying those two automakers was doing with their quality control. everybody Japanese i ever worked with in that factory spoke fluent English with the usual tiny issues with pronunciations. "There is no way to say the sounds" i think you meant write the sounds? 11,281 or 12,426 or 52,190 a few other sources state a few other things on the number of English words that end in the letter N. Oxford English Dict. states there are about 600,000 English words. "That rules out a lot of English words, probably over half." nope, not even approaching 300K. "and declaring that it’s easy to directly translate." nope, i never said that. i KNOW its hard to translate. i've WORKED with Japanese, Arabic and Farsi and Spanish and Portuguese and Polish and German and French-Creole writing speaking and real-time off the cuff translating professionals in the US and around. the. world. i stood side by side with those folks, some of them risking gunshots- loss of life and limb-family kidnappings-shunning by their neighbors-IEDs-poisonings-pets being stolen and multiple other seriously bad! things to happen to people... just because they were standing beside me and doing their jobs. nope, i didn't major in psychology. i majored in Criminal Justice, minored in English, concentrated most of my electives in the hard sciences and forensic investigations. got two Degrees with a combined 3.54/4.0 GPA between the two full time colleges i attended (an AS and a BS and started my Master's) worked around the world as a US Army Military Policeman for over 14 years, and i'm now semi-retired. i was in that car parts factory for a decade after i left the Army. |
| just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either. |
Reply to FutoiOtaku
KiliianSleipnir said:
@FutoiOtaku
"but the inflections and vocalisation techniques in Japanese can never be represented in English or any other Latin based language."
NEVER ... right there ^ plain as day. then you backpedal and get specific. finally. thanks for the translation lessons.
last i checked English was a National Curriculum Required Course from Year 6-11 for Japanese students. hopefully they reach some form of "significant progress studying English (which not many Japanese achieve)." during those six years. but it has been over a decade since i directly face-to-face worked with any Japanese folks, things might have changed. i was quite close and rubbed elbows with several technical representatives from both Nissan and Honda NA sometimes thrice weekly. depending on how good or bad the car-parts factory i worked in supplying those two automakers was doing with their quality control. everybody Japanese i ever worked with in that factory spoke fluent English with the usual tiny issues with pronunciations.
"There is no way to say the sounds" i think you meant write the sounds?
11,281 or 12,426 or 52,190 a few other sources state a few other things on the number of English words that end in the letter N. Oxford English Dict. states there are about 600,000 English words. "That rules out a lot of English words, probably over half." nope, not even approaching 300K.
"and declaring that it’s easy to directly translate." nope, i never said that. i KNOW its hard to translate. i've WORKED with Japanese, Arabic and Farsi and Spanish and Portuguese and Polish and German and French-Creole writing speaking and real-time off the cuff translating professionals in the US and around. the. world. i stood side by side with those folks, some of them risking gunshots- loss of life and limb-family kidnappings-shunning by their neighbors-IEDs-poisonings-pets being stolen and multiple other seriously bad! things to happen to people... just because they were standing beside me and doing their jobs.
nope, i didn't major in psychology. i majored in Criminal Justice, minored in English, concentrated most of my electives in the hard sciences and forensic investigations. got two Degrees with a combined 3.54/4.0 GPA between the two full time colleges i attended (an AS and a BS and started my Master's) worked around the world as a US Army Military Policeman for over 14 years, and i'm now semi-retired. i was in that car parts factory for a decade after i left the Army.
@FutoiOtaku
"but the inflections and vocalisation techniques in Japanese can never be represented in English or any other Latin based language."
NEVER ... right there ^ plain as day. then you backpedal and get specific. finally. thanks for the translation lessons.
last i checked English was a National Curriculum Required Course from Year 6-11 for Japanese students. hopefully they reach some form of "significant progress studying English (which not many Japanese achieve)." during those six years. but it has been over a decade since i directly face-to-face worked with any Japanese folks, things might have changed. i was quite close and rubbed elbows with several technical representatives from both Nissan and Honda NA sometimes thrice weekly. depending on how good or bad the car-parts factory i worked in supplying those two automakers was doing with their quality control. everybody Japanese i ever worked with in that factory spoke fluent English with the usual tiny issues with pronunciations.
"There is no way to say the sounds" i think you meant write the sounds?
11,281 or 12,426 or 52,190 a few other sources state a few other things on the number of English words that end in the letter N. Oxford English Dict. states there are about 600,000 English words. "That rules out a lot of English words, probably over half." nope, not even approaching 300K.
"and declaring that it’s easy to directly translate." nope, i never said that. i KNOW its hard to translate. i've WORKED with Japanese, Arabic and Farsi and Spanish and Portuguese and Polish and German and French-Creole writing speaking and real-time off the cuff translating professionals in the US and around. the. world. i stood side by side with those folks, some of them risking gunshots- loss of life and limb-family kidnappings-shunning by their neighbors-IEDs-poisonings-pets being stolen and multiple other seriously bad! things to happen to people... just because they were standing beside me and doing their jobs.
nope, i didn't major in psychology. i majored in Criminal Justice, minored in English, concentrated most of my electives in the hard sciences and forensic investigations. got two Degrees with a combined 3.54/4.0 GPA between the two full time colleges i attended (an AS and a BS and started my Master's) worked around the world as a US Army Military Policeman for over 14 years, and i'm now semi-retired. i was in that car parts factory for a decade after i left the Army.
Not reading that. You talk shit. Bye.
| @FutoiOtaku ok. have a pleasant day. :) |
| just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either. |
Reply to Arciinin
I’m convinced these guys aren’t real 😭 is the sub vs dub argument that serious that you guys need to write whole essays on the topic I’m crying
| @Arciinin Well, if you mean, do arguments break out over the topic, yeah they do. The long comment was my bad. I couldn't explain my thoughts in a shorter versions. It was not supposed to be an essay. Sorry. |
| Note: I don’t lazily watch 3-5 episodes, biasedly compare to other anime, or unfairly judge by surface level similarities. With every anime I start, I watch the entire series, both Japanese Sub & English Dub, then judge each anime based on what they present, to give an honest and fair rating. |
Reply to ejleon
Yuno4444 said:
But sub is better than dub
But sub is better than dub
That really depends, I watch both the subs and dubs of the anime in my “completed list”.
There are subs that are done better than the dubs.
There are also dubs that are done better than the subs.
Then there are subs / dubs that equally good in quality.
This has been my experience with anime.
ejleon said: I watch both the subs and dubs of the anime in my “completed list”. in other words, "I am unemployed and have no life". Anyway sub>>>dub for 99% of the cases |
"Are you the strongest because you're Satoru Gojo? Or are you Satoru Gojo because you're the strongest?"~ Suguru Geto  |
Reply to Arciinin
I’m convinced these guys aren’t real 😭 is the sub vs dub argument that serious that you guys need to write whole essays on the topic I’m crying
| @Arciinin take it from somebody that has been around anime discussions IRL and online for 30+ years... slap down a guy's waifu in a waifu war? he'll get his ire up but that'll probably be a meh. growl. grumble. response. start up the oldest flamewar in international otaku circles with the sub v dub? that's WW4 levels of conflict. just check out the loser down in 87 and lower... self harm. possible racist? or other pretty filthy statements... hating on Hindi? i know it is a language but would that also be a tertiary for the ethnic group? like Hebrew with their people, Arabic with arabs etc. ?? as well as all the other languages anime's dubbed into. seriously, that person just slathers the hate like margarine on toast. |
| just an ol school American otaku enjoyin the life. don't sass me kiddies, i've been otaku probably since before you were born. leave me in peace and i won't bother you either. |
| I'm glad it got a dub after 6 years. This show was well worth the wait! |
 |
| Better late than never. Happy for all the dub watchers out there. As for me, now is a good time to rewatch the series! Ripperdoc said: Give me some examples where dub was better than sub. There are some dubs of mediocre anime that IMO elevate it into "so bad, it's good" territory. Namely: 1. Ghost Stories 2. Garzey's Wing 3. The Island of Giant Insects |
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