Is Sarazanmai just not my thing?

May 6, 2019 3:26 PM

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Aug 2014

723

Bripara said:

Btw, kind of annoys me too how some here tend to use the "but it's the Ikuhara style" as a counter-argument. The anime must speak for itself. So just because the director uses repetition in Utena, Yurikuma or whatever, doesn't mean it will be good in Sarazanmai.

That's not just for Ikuhara, but a traditional magical girl warrior format.
That's a format that exists, is just that it's not used as much anymore.

May 6, 2019 6:34 PM

#52

bitchassdarius

Offline

Oct 2017

1837

Bripara said:

bitchassdarius said:
Sarazanmai isn't that hard to comprehend. It's been fairly straightforward about its narrative of desire, both unfulfilled and repressed, the only thing that's difficult is the way it's being presented. Most criticisms I've seen read like the people who have written them have never engaged with anything challenging and want everything they interact with to be immediately digestible. Great example of how intellectual lazy these criticisms are: the second review you see on MAL starts with a fucking Richard Feynman quote. It's an anime review, how much more ironically pseudointellectual can you get? Yeah, I'm fucking mad, and yeah I'm an idiot for expecting more from the "anime community."

If you don't like it, fine, but accusing this show of being pretentious, having empty symbolism, being self-indulgent etc. just betrays your own lack of mental capability. It's not that difficult, your stubborn refusal engage is.

Or MAYBE what you find challenging other viewers just find boring and shallow. But it seems to be difficult for Ikuhara fans to accept that there are people who don't think the director to be that smart/avant-garde.

Btw, kind of annoys me too how some here tend to use the "but it's the Ikuhara style" as a counter-argument. The anime must speak for itself. So just because the director uses repetition in Utena, Yurikuma or whatever, doesn't mean it will be good in Sarazanmai.

I never said Ikuhara was challenging, so off the bat you're already proving my point that most detractors of Ikuhara are simply unable to comprehend what's on their plate. My whole point was to disabuse you of this excuse of pretentiousness because Ikuhara actually isn't "smart/avant-garde." My point was that the only people that think Ikuhara shows are "smart/avant-garde" are people that have never encountered legitmate avant-garde and simply abuse this term to pass off any piece of art whose intentions aren't immediately available, i.e. the intellectually lazy. These people watch one or two episodes of Sarazanmai, think "uh i dont get it lmao, it must be pretentiousness," and leave it at that. But you if you think for maybe 2 minutes, the story Ikuhara is trying to tell becomes pretty clear. And that's because his intentions are never obscured, they're just packaged idiosyncratically in a way that's not immediately obvious unless you're already familiar with Ikuhara.

Here's a simple test. You ever watch Persona? If you think I'm referring to the anime adaptations of the video games and not the Bergman film, I know you have no idea what avant-garde actually is. Tetsuo The Iron Man, The Colour of Pomegranates, The Central Region. These are avant-garde. The closest Ikuhara has ever gotten was the Utena movie, which I doubt you've even seen.

bitchassdariusMay 6, 2019 6:54 PM

May 6, 2019 8:18 PM

#53

Bripara

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May 2019

10

bitchassdarius said:

Bripara said:

Or MAYBE what you find challenging other viewers just find boring and shallow. But it seems to be difficult for Ikuhara fans to accept that there are people who don't think the director to be that smart/avant-garde.

Btw, kind of annoys me too how some here tend to use the "but it's the Ikuhara style" as a counter-argument. The anime must speak for itself. So just because the director uses repetition in Utena, Yurikuma or whatever, doesn't mean it will be good in Sarazanmai.

I never said Ikuhara was challenging, so off the bat you're already proving my point that most detractors of Ikuhara are simply unable to comprehend what's on their plate. My whole point was to disabuse you of this excuse of pretentiousness because Ikuhara actually isn't "smart/avant-garde." My point was that the only people that think Ikuhara shows are "smart/avant-garde" are people that have never encountered legitmate avant-garde and simply abuse this term to pass off any piece of art whose intentions aren't immediately available, i.e. the intellectually lazy. These people watch one or two episodes of Sarazanmai, think "uh i dont get it lmao, it must be pretentiousness," and leave it at that. But you if you think for maybe 2 minutes, the story Ikuhara is trying to tell becomes pretty clear. And that's because his intentions are never obscured, they're just packaged idiosyncratically in a way that's not immediately obvious unless you're already familiar with Ikuhara.

Here's a simple test. You ever watch Persona? If you think I'm referring to the anime adaptations of the video games and not the Bergman film, I know you have no idea what avant-garde actually is. Tetsuo The Iron Man, The Colour of Pomegranates, The Central Region. These are avant-garde. The closest Ikuhara has ever gotten was the Utena movie, which I doubt you've even seen.

Nah, you implied the show was challenging. Anyway, I know Ikuhara is not challenging nor avant-garde. That was my point. But it is undeniable that most of his fans think the opposite. That's why if I say that I think transforming a high schooler, who lives in a fairy tale setting, into a car, is self-indulgent (something that is reinforced by the declarations given by the director himself), the fandom will probably say that I "didn't get it" and that I need to work my mind harder.

Oh, and thanks for the pedantic name-dropping (I love Bergman, rip Bibi Andersson).

May 6, 2019 9:00 PM

#54

bitchassdarius

Offline

Oct 2017

1837

Bripara said:

bitchassdarius said:

I never said Ikuhara was challenging, so off the bat you're already proving my point that most detractors of Ikuhara are simply unable to comprehend what's on their plate. My whole point was to disabuse you of this excuse of pretentiousness because Ikuhara actually isn't "smart/avant-garde." My point was that the only people that think Ikuhara shows are "smart/avant-garde" are people that have never encountered legitmate avant-garde and simply abuse this term to pass off any piece of art whose intentions aren't immediately available, i.e. the intellectually lazy. These people watch one or two episodes of Sarazanmai, think "uh i dont get it lmao, it must be pretentiousness," and leave it at that. But you if you think for maybe 2 minutes, the story Ikuhara is trying to tell becomes pretty clear. And that's because his intentions are never obscured, they're just packaged idiosyncratically in a way that's not immediately obvious unless you're already familiar with Ikuhara.

Here's a simple test. You ever watch Persona? If you think I'm referring to the anime adaptations of the video games and not the Bergman film, I know you have no idea what avant-garde actually is. Tetsuo The Iron Man, The Colour of Pomegranates, The Central Region. These are avant-garde. The closest Ikuhara has ever gotten was the Utena movie, which I doubt you've even seen.

Nah, you implied the show was challenging. Anyway, I know Ikuhara is not challenging nor avant-garde. That was my point. But it is undeniable that most of his fans think the opposite. That's why if I say that I think transforming a high schooler, who lives in a fairy tale setting, into a car, is self-indulgent (something that is reinforced by the declarations given by the director himself), the fandom will probably say that I "didn't get it" and that I need to work my mind harder.

Oh, and thanks for the pedantic name-dropping (I love Bergman, rip Bibi Andersson).

If your point is that Ikuhara isn't challenging, then we agree and your position as opposite of mine is a fault of your own misreading. I never implied the show was challenging. My first sentence is in fact "Sarazanmai isn't that hard to comprehend." I don't know how much more obvious I could have been with that. Maybe you should actually try reading before posting, you'll be less likely to embarrass yourself. If you need me to be explicit, I'm laying out the fact that there are gradations of depth, but people like you see depth as binary: You get it and it's not "pretentious" and anything you don't immediately engage with is "avant-garde" and tryhard. NGE isn't avant-garde or complicated, the proof is in it's popularity. But it's also not immediate either, because you have actually have to think a little to understand where Anno is coming from. This is the same zone Ikuhara is operating in.

Last time I checked, Utena is considered a classic 90s shoujo. I think the people that liked it when they saw it in the '90s who thought "Whoa this is so deep and avant-garde" were teens having their first exposure to narratives with depth. You're trying to flip the script by relaying your criticism on the fans, but this is besides the point. There's no defense of shallow criticisms, just a misdirection to irrelevant people. Also, if we're going to speak for whole fandoms, I think it's safe to say that many people related to the very overt themes in Utena, or Yurikuma Arashi, or Penguindrum without thinking about them that much because they're not complicated.

By the way, can you explain what you mean by "self-indulgent?" This is usually a vague criticism that's levelled as a post-hoc justification for why someone doesn't like something. All art is inherently self-indulgent, but I can't imagine this is what you mean as that would make your criticism not really a criticism. I'm going to presuppose you mean that, again, you think it's "pretentious," but in this case, that would mean you think the whole film is "pretentious" because that image is consistent with the rest of the film. You can criticize Ikuhara for so many things, but it's revealing that the most common criticism is that he's "pretentious." This type of shit doesn't mean anything other then you had nothing interesting to say.

bitchassdariusMay 6, 2019 9:05 PM

May 7, 2019 2:24 AM

#55

hardestliquor

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Apr 2018

12

stray_stoat said:

huubi said:

I honestly am a little confused at how so many People say Utena is one of the best anime ever but give Sarazanmai a 6 or 7 because it's "repetetive".

Oh, yes. I think that problem lies in the cult of Utena. This people can't just said "Utena is repetitive I think it's crappy and deserves only 6-7" because Utena already is classic. Telling that every rose has its thorn not so easy (except antisocial rebel teens of course). But Sarazanmai? Well, Sarazanmai just another ongoing tv show for them. It's not the famous-ultra-best-top10-must see-must love.
In other words not so much people who really think that Utena is one of the best anime ever, even if they say so...

I wasn't necessarily saying I don't think Utena is good, but rather that people aren't giving sarazanmai a chance on the basis of things that have been a staple of Ikuhara's work basically since he started directing.

May 7, 2019 5:28 AM

#56

Jin_uzuki

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Apr 2009

776

bitchassdarius said:
Most criticisms I've seen read like the people who have written them have never engaged with anything challenging and want everything they interact with to be immediately digestible.

Well, there is a reason Isekai LNs are so popular nowadays. :C

May 7, 2019 5:56 AM

#57

Cabron

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Jan 2013

5350

Jin_uzuki said:

bitchassdarius said:
Most criticisms I've seen read like the people who have written them have never engaged with anything challenging and want everything they interact with to be immediately digestible.

Well, there is a reason Isekai LNs are so popular nowadays. :C

I really hope you're being sarcastic because yeah...

Please learn about cel animation and its technical process.
Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers.

May 12, 2019 10:17 PM

#58

Reiaika

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Dec 2008

247

People dropping it saying it's repetitive, when there are thousands of series that are repetitive and way more boring that Sarazanmai is, for me.

I actually thought it would be confusing to follow, but everything would make sense in the end and I'd just go "so that's how it is", and I really thought I would get tired of seeing repetitive scenes over and over, just how magical girl animes have repetitive transformations/lines, but I'm purely enjoying every bit of it. What more, art, music and animation is good, as well.

What more, it's a very open series and really is an out of a box story.

May 14, 2019 7:46 AM

#59

Shirocha

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Apr 2018

2

Could be, like other people have said, this does seem to be a very polarizing anime, I think it depends also, on whether or not you enjoy sort of the mahou shoujo set up for series, as that's the basic format the series is employing, my fiance doesn't care much about the series and isn't a fan of mahou shoujo series.

I like em, and don't really mind the format, so I'm interested in the story. It's definitely odd, and definitely rooted in Japanese folklore that I don't really know too much about, but I think with the combination of the folklore, ikuhara's strange storytelling methods, and utilizing the mahou shoujo episode format for a series like this, I can definitely see why it's a love it or hate it kind of show.

May 14, 2019 6:53 PM

#60

ahneeme

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Feb 2012

707

if they took away all the reused scenes this show would be 5 episodes long

Aug 14, 2019 12:20 PM

#61

Chiibi

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Nov 2008

10505

It's okay, OP. I don't like the show either.

strutterf said:

Cabron said:

Yes, please tell us about your superior taste...

Did i say i had superior taste? At least i can make an aesthetic judgement between generic pedophilic light novel adaptations and an original anime with a vision that is unlike everything that is produced today

........because THIS show that has all these sexual jokes and close-up shots of little boys' asses and penetrating them to remove things isn't "pedophilic" in the LEAST bit AT ALL, right?

I find that downright disgusting, especially compared to anything I've seen a light novel do with young characters.
If teenage sodomy is part of the "unique vision" here, I'll stick to the more generic stuff, thanks. Ikuhara has never been above sexualizing underage characters; he makes them f*ck several times in Utena; even a fourteen-year-old girl and her own blood brother.

If you don't like light novels, fine....but watch what kind of criticism you're throwing around if you're gonna defend shows like THIS one. If LN "pedo" content is wrong, it's absolutely wrong here too. Putting Ikuhara on a pedestal doesn't change that.

ChiibiAug 14, 2019 12:40 PM

Aug 18, 2019 5:45 PM

#62

LeonhartAugust

Voltekka!

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Sep 2017

4855

The show was okay aside from the butt scenes. They make me uncomfortable and they still do.

@Chiibi Oh god there’s actual incest in Utena? Looks like another anime to avoid.

LeonhartAugustAug 18, 2019 5:54 PM

Aug 18, 2019 7:07 PM

#63

Chiibi

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Nov 2008

10505

MeisterDM said:

@Chiibi Oh god there’s actual incest in Utena? Looks like another anime to avoid.

There is. =_= Utena's filled with all kinds of effed up things and all the characters are assholes. xD I think the show is HIGHLY overrated. I don't get why people love it so so much.

Aug 18, 2019 8:46 PM

#64

LeonhartAugust

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Sep 2017

4855

Chiibi said:

MeisterDM said:

@Chiibi Oh god there’s actual incest in Utena? Looks like another anime to avoid.

There is. =_= Utena's filled with all kinds of effed up things and all the characters are assholes. xD I think the show is HIGHLY overrated. I don't get why people love it so so much.

Not to mention I heard bad things about the male characters.

Aug 19, 2019 9:17 AM

#65

Chiibi

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Nov 2008

10505

MeisterDM said:

Not to mention I heard bad things about the male characters.

All of them are TERRIBLE except for one...but he's so minor that he can't save it. xD

I'm really hoping Penguindrum will be GOOD....*crosses fingers* lol

Aug 28, 2019 1:26 AM

#66

SpeedRoidGenm

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May 2016

2167

Yes its not your cup of tea sadly

Sep 11, 2019 9:02 AM

#67

Helesia

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Sep 2019

3

MeisterDM said:

Chiibi said:

There is. =_= Utena's filled with all kinds of effed up things and all the characters are assholes. xD I think the show is HIGHLY overrated. I don't get why people love it so so much.

Not to mention I heard bad things about the male characters.

Let's not spread misinformation, shall we ?
(If you have trigger warnings or anything, Utena has quite a lot, so please inform yourself just in case.) But to be clear, all characters in Utena doing fucked up things are shown as fucked up people doing BAD THINGS, the show isn't trying to paint them as good people. There's incest, but it's not shown in the "cool, I can fuck my cute imouto" way, it's shown in the "ew, that's disgusting way". Ikuhara isn't a perfect man, but he sure as hell doesn't romantize incest in Utena.
But yes, Utena is a show filled with fucked up people having toxic relationships and all, so if you can't stand that, don't watch it.

Oct 28, 2019 1:56 PM

#68

Parker_Wander

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Dec 2018

2

Well well.... No matter what people say it's really bad.. and you know what
Just because it's really bad
It's too amazing !!
Yes its simply too Great because it's bad !
And i promise you will never regret after watching it

Jan 27, 2020 1:43 PM

#69

IwaOi-KHRStan

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Aug 2018

157

I can agree with you. I'm watching this show because of the yaoi vibes of Reo and Mabu. It's a too cringy series, too unworthy

Feb 8, 2020 1:59 PM

#70

winfoharso

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Jan 2019

262

I personally loved it. Of all of Ikuhara's metaphors within his shows, the themes about connections hit me in a personal way. It also helps that I already loved Ikuhara's directing style.

Hunter x Hunter is a 1/10

Mar 25, 2020 12:42 AM

#71

Hirowata95

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Sep 2014

11

Enjoying watchin' to new Ikuhara's titles and sailormoon>but cant force to complete Utena lol . . . dunno why. Does anyone feels like this?

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