Hibike! Euphonium 3 Episode 12 Discussion

@ColdBlackTeaFan re:Taki sensei. If the skill is close, Kumiko should be playing soli. To swap out club president just because was the dumbest idea.
It's a pity that Reina has turned into one-dimensional Taki sensei obsessed music purist.

He didn't swap them out "just because". He wouldn't have arranged for the blind audition if that's the case. Also, picking someone based on seniority would go against the principle of meritocracy. All in all, I think he made sensible decisions.

If Kumiko and Mayu have the same level of ability why did Reina choose Mayu?

He didn't swap them out "just because". He wouldn't have arranged for the blind audition if that's the case. Also, picking someone based on seniority would go against the principle of meritocracy. All in all, I think he made sensible decisions.

To all commenting about peak cinema, drama, how realistic it is etc.
Why not push it further? How would you feel if Kitauji actually won't win gold in nationals? Surely that would be realistic given how much tension was in the club during the year, right?
3 seasons, all build-up - all just to stay that's life it happens. At least we enjoyed nice character development, right?
For me this drama ends here, I am not interested in the finale anymore.

@DuckCross source material is LN and its entirely different then this

@Myetx I hope they don't win, the author is a moron that is looking more into the future than the present. If this was the end of the series she would win, the only reason she lost is because he needs something to do in a long term. And I also lost the interest, I don't really want to watch the entire life grown of Kumiko. Clearly author wants to extend this till she dies from age.

10 years.

10 freaking years waiting for this moment for them to to just crush us like that.

It just feels like it all was for nothing.

I mean the whole point of the show since season 1 was to get gold.
Gold, gold, gold. That was the main objective all these years. And all of the drama in the show surrounded that.

But what's the point now?
It feels like that objective has become completely meaningless.

Now only the conclusion remains and Kitauji will probably win but who cares? It's just so underwhelming.

@Marknnz Well it is actually not the author. Anime is based on light novels and surprise surprise:

It’s simple. It’s because Reina didn’t recognize Kumiko’s sound. Now as for why Reina didn’t recognize Kumiko’s sound is a different topic and a question I would like answered

@watsym Jukki is involved? So it explains why I get echoes of Yorimoi's episode 12 here.

@Myetx i just read that, I don't even know how the fuck this awesome studio would come with that kind of garbage. Unbelievable.

So I was reflecting on this episode and I have a few reasons why I thought it was so good and it actually makes complete sense that Kumkio did not get the solli. I believe this because it is very in line with the character development of both Kumiko and Reina and enforces the story that is being told.

Reina:
Reina's rock solid ambition from the first moment we see her is to win. Winning gold in the nationals is, by far, her most important ambition. When Reina knowingly chooses Mayu over Kumiko she sticks to her convictions and makes the decision that she believes will achieve her goal. However this choice is extremely difficult for her because it means breaking the promise to her best friend. Reina already said in a previous episode that she has to separate from Kumiko because their lives are not going to go in the same direction, but Kumiko convinces her that it is not the case, it is not goodbye because she won't let that happen. So of course choosing Mayu is soul crushing for Reina, but at the same time she had to do what she thinks will achieve her dream and she has learned to trust their friendship will be able to take it. Heart wrenching stuff that really reinforces Reina's character. She still chases her dreams, but it is no longer that simple for her.

Kumiko:
The most important part of Kumiko's role in S3 has been that she is now club president. We still don't know for sure what her plans for the future are, but the timing of her handing in the form is fully intentional. It is foreshadowed that she might end up pursuing being a music teacher. Even in this episode she says in a roundabout way that she wants to become "like Taki-sensei". Either way we know for sure that she isn't pursuing becoming a professional musician. And fittingly, it was Kumiko's leadership that took them to the nationals, not her musical performance. Right before the audition, Kumiko decides what path she will pursue by handing in the form, and whatever it says, it's not professional music performance. When Mayu got the solli part, Kumiko steps in and takes responsibility as their leader yet again. Kumiko got endless opportunities to get the part through seniority and just by merit of being president. But again and again and again she refused that path. She decided that the most important thing was being a good president, giving everyone a fair chance and standing up for the meritocracy she herself implemented. Again, it's not her playing that is most important, but her leadership. She is finding her role in the world, and while not getting the solli undoubtedly sucks, storytelling-wise it gives her another chance to prioritize the leader role, and as such enforces her character and her future.

And while unrelated to the story, that last scene is simply some of the best animation I've seen in any piece of media ever.

After thinking about it for quite a bit, I'm convinced that this was the right choice. And the reason comes down to understanding the medium.

I write a serial fiction, myself. I can show you if you want, but I won't link it here. One thing I've learned was that because of the medium I chose, some choices aren't possible for me, and some that don't make any sense I have to do anyway because I can't tell the story properly without them. The LN and anime are fundamentally two different media. Anime is a visual medium, and the producers had some scenes they needed to tie back, such as the one where Kumiko runs her finger down Reina's face, resembling the scene from S1E8. In order to tell the story they needed to, they had to set up a situation where the scene called for it, so they needed to make a change. Also, they may have been setting up something for S13 that we don't know yet.

And honestly, it's probably a "for the better" change anyway. What actually happened allows us to explore the characters of Reina and Kumiko in a way that couldn't have been done previously. And we already know Kumiko's not going to music school, her character arc is already satisfied. She's grown in every way she needed to, she does not have to play the solo to have her character fully realized and developed.

I understand that all of this is separate from the frustration, as Kanade said. It says a great deal about this anime and the person who wrote it that we all care about it so much, and I wanted to see Kumiko succeed as well. I understand that, I understand Kanade's feelings, I understand Kumiko's, and I understand Reina's. I don't agree with those calling this garbage, though. Do you think Kanade thought Reina was garbage for her choice? Do you think Kumiko did? Someone earlier asked how to deal with the frustration. Kumiko and Reina both gave us that answer. Find a bridge and scream off it.

I'm not really joking.

But at the end of the day, this anime, no matter how it turns out, has been a gift, and I can be nothing but grateful for it.

Look I understand that opinions vary and many genuine like the change that KyoAni did.
However let's not retcon things that were not there.
Firstly, that's not true that Mayu is better player than Kumiko. Kumiko easily won first audition, Reina said that she sounded better (and she wouldn't lie) and original author eventually gave uncontested victory to Kumiko. So Kumiko was better player and only temporary loss of Kumiko's focus made Mayu win regional audition.
Secondly, the fact the Kumiko is not going to music school doesn't mean she doesn't deserve soli. And we know that Kumiko really likes to play euph. Does Mayu go to music school? As far as we know, most of kids haven't gone or not planning to go to music schools after.
Thirdly, the was an obvious build-up for Kumiko to take back solo. Just because it was expected does not mean it was bad. That's basic storywriting to foreshadow events so reader is prepared for them. To swap things at the last minute is not peak cinema - it is bait and switch.

@lycoping Very interesting perspective, thanks for sharing! I think this change elevates Kumiko not as a character, but as a person more, if that makes any sense. I have been complaining in previous threads about the lack of performances, but her losing the solo makes the direction of this season seem all the more deliberate, as we see her trying to navigate becoming a leader, growing up, and as it seems, also growing apart from her good friend. Honestly with there being so many perspectives about this, I can't fault those who are disappointed (and even distraught) with the result either, even as I'm content with how everything has turned out. I think it's one hell of an achievement for a story to invite such discussion, where both sides can have equally valid viewpoints.

Absolutely. But while I understand people having an emotional reaction and being upset, I am a little disappointed in how people call it "garbage" , etc.

Look, I have my criticisms. One of my biggest is that the pacing of this season is all off. The could have doubled the number of episodes, and it would have been much more in line with what we'd expect out of KyoAni. I also don't really like how they basically shoved the plot around to get where they wanted and went for maximum drama, even when it actually kind of took you out of the story a bit. I don't think it's perfect.

But "garbage" is really harsh. There's a reason this anime is really loved, and a reason why it causes such an intense emotional reaction, and that's because it really is a good story and a good anime. They made characters that you grow to respect, admire, and even in some ways love. You're invested in them so much that when they're "screwed over" you can't help but have an emotional reaction. But that in itself makes it not garbage. That makes it awesome. And I wish at the very least people could pull back enough from their emotional reactions to see how much their emotional reaction itself belies the idea that it's "garbage".

Kumiko, Reina, etc., will always be in our hearts. And for fictional characters that have nothing to do with real life, well... that's why I love anime, even though there's so much out there that actually *is* garbage. Some that I just think is, and some that is pretty much, objectively, garbage. There's no way this qualifies as that.

@lycoping First of all thank you for polite response.
I think I could accept Kumiko's defeat much easier if I didn't know that she won in novel.
Or at least if it wasn't as torturous as it was in drama. Like Taki would voted for Mayu and explained it to Kumiko. But to have draw, then draw again and then having Reina putting knife into her heart is just too much to handle.

So what career or future goal did Kumiko pick? The teacher seemed to imply it was very obvious.

Very powerful and bittersweet. I'm glad that KyoAni stuck to their guns and changed the story and the outcome, which is something I wasn't aware of coming into this episode. Not without some personal gripes at the outcome, but, after sleeping on it, I think it's narratively better for the growth of everyone as characters. For one, "defeat" for Kumiko in this sense allows for Reina and her to reconcile and build a deeper connection as friends with deep bonds beyond just the confines of music. They have something much stronger that now won't just end even after they go their different directions after graduating. If KyoAni wanted extremes in human emotions, they certainly made the right calls...

I voted for the 2nd audition, probably knowing to some extent that it was Kumiko. I think I've been spoiled by other anime like Nodame Cantabile in preferring more dynamic and expressive performances, so Kumiko's performance was my preference. But I also understand that Mayu played a more technically solid performance. She's a much safer choice to win gold at nationals where scoring arbitrary points matter, and so on.

This all makes me think back to high school where I both played in band as a trumpet and also played sports. I had an immense amount of self-pride but had to swallow it and step aside when other people who were clearly better than me took first chair and first part from me, or took my 2nd place batting spot in baseball and put me down to 7th...all for the good of the team. It still wasn't good enough to win anything, but it did teach me a few things in life that I've taken forward.

I just hope that after all the personal sacrifice and turmoil that they win gold at nationals. Although, the cynic in me would see the irony in the "realistic" outcome of them coming short. After all there's only ever one winner in a competition of many. I haven't been spoiled on the ending, but regardless I'm hoping that they do win.

The problem isn’t how they changed the ending, but how forced it feels.

First of all Kumiko and Mayu were supposed to be equal in ability, occasionally one is better than the other but in the end their plays do come out to be so close that Taki couldn’t decide and the votes literally tied before Reina. That is a fact.
Then why did Reina pick Mayu over Kumiko? According to Kumiko it’s because she let her hesitation show for a bit in her play. Yeah that makes sense because our Reina is always direct and unwavering in her belief that only the best should play, great characterization.

The problem is Kumiko’s hesitation.
The sources of her hesitation were three: first the concert band members, second her own future, third Mayu. The first problem was due to the executives decision to make auditions happen multiple times and the first years feeling pressured. This was resolved when Kumiko gave the speech at Kansai competition which reassured and united everyone. The second problem was Kumiko feeling conflicted about her future, similar to Mizore and Nozomi in Liz and the blue bird. This was resolved in the last episode where she realized that neither music nor herself is meant for each other, and brought it up to Reina. The third one was seen revealed in this episode, where Kumiko acknowledged that she feared losing to Mayu because Mayu is such a strong player. This was resolved when Mayu opened up for the first time and Kumiko apologizing for neglecting Mayu’s calls for help.

So why did Kumiko hesitate again? Well she shouldn’t! Because in the novel she had everything worked out right before the audition, there isn’t even a blind audition, she won the first one!
Originally, these three sources of anxiety were what caused Kumiko to lose the Kansai Soli, but in the span of 3 episodes we all witnessed her maturing and solving these problems one by one. It was self discovery, courageous face down, a step to conquer one’s biggest fears that was supposed to result in success but apparently didn't because after all these feelings and experience she’s still hesitating :,) if that isn’t forced plot I don’t know what is.

I’m not calling the plot change bad, in fact I really appreciated the bittersweet ending and think the anime’s production was no short of extraordinary. But if you’re altering the literal ending of an anime of this size, you gotta change things down the line to at least make it reasonable and fitting with the given premise.

For example, show more perspective on Mayu. Remember, they are equal in ability. If all we’ve been shown is Kumiko’s hard work and growth, how do you expect us to just accept that after all this improvement Kumiko is still worse? At least show some parts of Mayu’s personal growth so we know it’s a fair battle between two maturing individuals?

Also, if Kumiko still has unresolved problems, at least give some signs. In the Kansai audition, we can clearly see that the atmosphere at the club is extremely tense, Kumiko has reservations against Mayu, and Reina warned her that she’s been called out more by Taki. But for this? Heck Kumiko is the one to reach out and open up with Mayu, and you’re telling me she is actually feeling lost at heart still about not going to a music university?

Well, guess we will find out how well ep 12 fixes some of these plot holes.