Descending Stories
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| Truly a quality show from start to finish. I remember how surprised I was watching the first season and this continuation did not disappoint. All good things come to an end and this told it's story just about perfectly. |
shoujos said: Talu said: I still can't see how it confirms it. I mean we all thought the Boss was the father and the extra literally crushes any chance of that since he would never go for Konatsu in general + it reveals that Konatsu was once in love with Yakumo during a certain point in her life + there were hints throughout the story+ Shin looks exactly like Yakumo + we have the bomb that was dropped during the last episode/last chapter where Konatsu doesn't deny anything(she doesn't confirm it either but the mangaka wanted people to read the extra after finishing the entire story because she said it adds important information). It's pretty obvious that Yakumo is the real dad. While everyone around Konatsu is keeping a huge secret(the fact that she killed her parents) from her, she's keeping her own huge secret(Yakumo being the father) from them. I understood the mafia boss thing, but still... after it happend they behaved like nothing happend between them? its just weird. maybe its a cultural thing, i don't know... Its not the first time i have seen this kind of thing in manga. I just don't like that... o_X |
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Darshia said: Annick said: When it happens in real life, people go to jail...;) joke It may happen, but how many step-dads, adoptive fathers feel that way in real life? Not that much. We had a nice complicated relationship already, there was no need for more drama, it seems that in anime we just can't have normal family relationship, we always need sexual innuendo, and I'm so fed up with this. I saw it countless of time already. When they started talking about that rumor I just wanted them to shoot me already, not because I was too shocked but because it was so cheesy, easy and cheap that I couldn't stand it anymore. If she really wanted to show us that relationship just do it right . How do you think it happened? She hated him before the birth, after the birth, had the child for the sake of rakugo, out of revenge in a way and to push Yakumo to continue rakugo when he didn't seem to need it at that time, what a lame excuse and what about him? He went with the flow? As always? Perhaps it was a taboo relationship but it's not what annoyed me, what annoys me is that it was so bad the way they brought it and it didn't bring anything to the story. I think I would have believed it more if it was the other way, she was Bon's daughter and ended up having a kid with Shin. I thought it was out of character for both of them and I didn't buy it, whatever the author intentions, to me she failed telling that part of the story and didn't convince me at all. The job of the author is to bring us somewhere right? She did a great job in general but there were some times where she lost me, that almost revelation was one. If I was the editor I would have made her re-write it, if you want Bon to be the father and having that kind of relationship with Konatsu, go, show me, convince me...It just didn't work. It was not the point of the story, the point was just to make Shin and Bon baby and create a rakugo monster in the end -__________- . Like if blood matters, like it's how people inherit their talents. I feel like a Star Wars fan after the Phantom Menace. Sorry to be annoying but I wanted moooooooore. That anime would have been almost perfect without the unnecessary twist plots. Really? That's how you see it? Well that's just like... your opinion man lol. Meh I don't see it that way. To me it wasn't cheap and it wasn't forced, all of the clues were there just no one really paid attention to them which is the one thing I love about the show the most. I love the fact that it doesn't hold your hand and just TELL you everything because they have no faith in the audience to think for themselves. You can probably say that there were no signs or clue, or they were done wrong, but people were picking up on the revelation sometime ago, and if they saw it coming and guessed the revelation from the shows own context clues then it must not have failed for them. And like... super Rakugo child? Eh? I mean don't know if that was the intention. I read it more like her way of having Bon and Sukeroku still live in this world through Shinnosuke. As for how it happened? Yes she did hate him but I guess we're just ignoring in the last ep where she said she was in love with him? Okay fine maybe you think that was forced there at the end, but she could have had other feeling for him besides hate. Humans are capable of feeling more than one thing for a person at a time. The show has always been about contradictions since season one. "I love you, I hate you" It's in the lyrics of the song for season one. Bon couldn't stand Sukeroku in a way but at the same time loved him as a brother. Miyo loved Bon but resented him at the same time. I always believed that was the same for Konatsu, she "hated" him but she loved him at the same time. There are other things to go with this theme in the rest of the show but that requires me to write an essay :P. But it's not out of character for the nature of the show. I don't know, I'm not that passionate about this since I came for the story, I enjoyed the story. It touched me and that's all that mattered at the end of the day. Like I said, that's your opinion and I'm just sharing mine with anyone who will listen and so are you. No show will ever be perfect if you keep searching for perfection because then every flaw will become magnified. Just try to chill out, okay :D chinvincible said: You're right, that's also my opinion. From where I come from, I've read fictional (romance) stories like this and I don't find anything wrong with it. There's no incest here and you don't have to re-contextualize their relationship. It doesn't mean that Yakumo took her in that he treated him as his daughter, rather I think he sees her as a brat who just have to live in the same house that he's in and he's obliged to raise her because both parents are dead. Meanwhile, Konatsu never treated Yakumo as her father, never once in her life. She was thankful though that he looked after her, but that's it. So my recommendation to those people who are still grossed about this revelation is to stop thinking that they treated each other as father-daughter because they never did. They only live in the same roof. Stories like these exist. I think the problem of many is they automatically that when some old person took a child under their care that they will automatically have a parent/child relationship but that's not always the case. I'm not sure if people who find it icky lives outside Asia. This exactly, and the age difference doesn't bother me either. I've read/heard of romantic stories like this in real life. I dunno I guess I just love stories/romance with really strange unorthodox relationships and complicated melodrama. I'm fully American and it doesn't bother me, I guess it depends on the level of exposure people get to different types of people and cultures. But just because he took her in doesn't mean they saw each other as father and daughter, he felt obligated since Sukeroku was his best friend! I wish I saw it but I didn't, even with the clues, I just saw some parental love nothing else. So I tried really hard to see it re-watching the episodes, keeping this in mind and it didn't make Yakumo more likable. Like he made the same mistake as with Miyokichi, just letting women do as they please, not really taking responsibility, letting another take care of the girl in the end. In conclusion I came to think, it was just a one time thing and he regretted it. I saw the love he had for Shin and Yotaro and even Konatsu, but I didn't see the sexual interest he had for her. I can see Konatsu had mixed feeling but acting the same way after she had slept with him and was in her 30 seemed quite childish to me. Anyway she did say in the last episode that it was maybe koi (so romantic feeling she had for him) when she was young but you see it was not that obvious for her at that time. Now she's old, she think she might have been in love with him. What I call cheap is that plot of the girl falling for the the paternal figure/older man who took care of her, I saw it countless of time already, I'm fed up with it. For once we had a nice reluctant adoptive father and rebellious daughter relationship, I liked it. He didn't want a child, she didn't want him as a father, they learned to know each other better, they became a real family in the end. Isn't nice enough? I loved that story but in the last episode, when we know we will never know more about it, they hinted it was more than that and again we fall back into josei cliches. That is why I call it a cheap plot. If the author really wanted to show us that story, I was okay to see it, even if I saw it countless of time and I'm fed up, she could have show us more, torture Yakumo more...really I wanted her to show me what she had in mind and expect it to be original. But I found the parent relationship more enjoyable and original, I didn't need the romance part. Some people liked it, good for them, some people think it was a cheap plot like me, too bad for us. "her way of having Bon and Sukeroku still live in this world through Shinnosuke" Exactly, I may use funny expressions but that's it. To me, the unseen romance part with Yakumo and Konatsu just served to that, having a child with both genes. I'm not saying Konatsu did that for that reason, I'm saying the "Author" did that for that reason and had no intention of developing the story between the other too. And since the author mainly wrote yaoi, I like to joke about the fact she just wanted Shin and Bon to have a baby but used Konatsu for it. ;) But really, she didn't need to do that, because Shinnosuke grew up with Yakumo and was a real groupie, like sensei said, there was a Yakumo aura around him. Yakumo was already living through him so was Shin, Just blood and genes is not enough to form personality, children take from their environnent. So my point is: having a kid with both genes is just fanservice and the Author's fantasy. Then they go on hinting the kid is a genius in rakugo (like it's Shin and Bon talent reunited!!!) ....and I am Meh.....too easy... but it's my opinion as you said. Don't get me wrong, I loved the show, I was entranced by it until some elements made me go Uh what? Like that far-fetched suicide scene- that changed into another a bit far-fetched scene of agression and accident, that changed for she did all the time, fell and tripped and oopsie... To me those scenes were not thought and developed enough compared to the rest. It was the weak point of the series with the last revelation. I mean, did the last revelation bring much to the story? Some people think it explains why Yakumo was suicidal and it would be interesting but Matsuda also said he was suicidal before that, or is it a mis-translation? BTW I chilled out a while back, some friend of mine think I'm upset, but I'm not, must be my Quebecker side, I may argue a lot and have some way of talking (not fluent in English) but I'm having fun, I'm not mad or anything. The show was close to perfection, so that's why details annoy me. We also understand things according to our personalities and experiences and of course I won't get everything, and of course I want to be explained what happened. Some people saw the attraction between those two since the beginning, I didn't. I can tell he likes her but just not in a sexual way...Besides Bon sexuality was vague, we know he liked fancy, classy, independent women but they seemed to annoy him as well. He's often cold with them, not gallant, we don't see him taking the lead. He did more for Shin than for Miyokichi. Yakumo did show some kindness to Konatsu but it looked like paternal gestures to me. Even if he knew Konatsu had other kind of feelings for him, he didn't seem ready to take responsibility, we see it with the baby, he says "why I must be responsible for this". Really I wonder why he went with Konatsu, knowing it had no future and when he was already feeling guilty for years about Miyokichi. People are not perfect, it may happen, but I just see him telling her "Do as you want"... So if a person here would be nice enough to explain to me how it happened, why and what it brings to the story, it would be really nice. Tell me how it works in Bon head please and make it complexe because just saying he developed sentiments over staying together for a long time won't work for me. Right now, I went as far as considering that they got drunk in that restaurant where the mistress and Konatsu work, and that's why she and the boss know about it. It was a one night stand and Yakumo didn't want to go further but let her keep the baby and stay in his house. BTW it's quite funny to re-watch the scene with Matsuda raging about the unknown father with that in mind. I'm also considering that the author is so used to draw yaoi that she depicted the relationship between men way better than with women and it's her fault if Bon doesn't seem interested. |
AnnickMar 26, 2017 10:53 PM
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| Such a beautiful show. I hate it had to end. I suspected early on that Yakumo was the father of Shinnosuke. This final episode confirmed my suspicions. It was incredibly classy how subtle hints were placed here and there. So subtle, as a matter of fact, that they could be easily overlooked. But that was definitely the secret the Boss was keeping. Talu said: I had this suspicion after the first season's last episode, but WTF why?!?!! he basically raised Konatsu, how could he sleep with her oh god. X_____x People do strange things when grief and guilt are weighing heavily on them. |
Hannah_AnaMar 26, 2017 8:17 PM
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| So, I wrote about 2.5K words dissecting the implications of the father reveal, the implications of them, why I don't like it, and why I personally don't believe that Yakumo is the father over on my blog. I don't want to clutter the discussion thread with such a lengthy post though so if you're interested in reading a lengthy view of the situation, you can. I know I love reading takes on my favorite shows, like this fantastic piece I ran across on twitter by the Josei Next Door. Also around 2.5K words but definitely worth reading imo. She approached the scene from the perspective of the Yakumo reveal being false, explaining Konatsu's reactions to Higuchi's question and tying that in with one of the series strongest themes. Not sure I would've made my post if I read that piece first, though mine was mostly written for catharsis. Because one of my favorite shows almost lost me right there. Regardless I'm not here to shamelessly self-promote and then undercut my own piece with an even better one, I'm here to simply express my gratitude for Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu. Because ultimately, Rakugo Shinjuu is one of the best series I've ever seen. Currently it resides as my number five but it definitely could move the list when I go back to re-watch. I mean, there were definitely times when I considered it my second favorite, and even the all around more consistent best. I don't know how exactly to phrase my praise for Rakugo in a way that does it justice. The first season was excellent, easily my favorite anime but it wasn't a 10, this season was easily a 10. Quite frankly, the series was crafted with such care and every element in it's composition is exemplary. I don't think there's a single category that I wouldn't consider Rakugo as one of the top in it's field or any. For character construction, seeing the key moments and progression of Yakumo/Bon/Kikuhiko's life turned him into one of the most fully-realized characters I've seen. And he's not even my favorite character, that's probably Sukeroku. For voice acting, Akira Ishida delivered some of the greatest I've seen and pretty much everyone brought their A-game when it came to Rakugo. The cinematography and directions helped turned the Rakugo scenes, which on paper should be boring, into captivating television (I dearly, love the Rakugo scenes, for quite some time they were my favorite part of the show, thanks in large part to the director as well as the character insight provided [side-note: Shibahama is my favorite story and Sukeroku's performance of it is my favorite Rakugo scene]). The music, I'm surprised how little I hear about the score! The OST beautifully compliments each scenes, and the power of the tracks absolutely highlight the tone making the emotional scenes resonate even stronger without ever taking over the scene. Watch Yakumo's farewell at the end of the last episode once again. The story, is multifaceted masterpiece that manages to cleverly tie together the past into the present, allowing for some of the most poignant scenes in the medium, using the art form at it's core to continue to help express the stories of the individual characters in meaningful ways. The OP/ED, are some of the best too! Particularly the OP, which not only features a fantastic song (that King Records have posted in full on their Youtube Channel go listen to it now what are you doing) but also communicates an entire story with it's OP (one that ultimately does wind up with the full story). That art, on rare occasions you'd get some derp faces from the background cast (I believe this was most notable in the episode where Yotaro performed Shibahama, which I want to say was 8?) but aside from that this has one of my favorite art styles and it's impressively consistent. Also, those Konatsu faces are fantastic. The animation, equally as impressive, how about that time they perfectly matched up Yakumo's emulation with Sukeroku's original performance, or the sweeping 360 shot of Yotaro's Rakugo Rant to Mob Boss/Kido Isao that I unfortunately don't have video evidence of. Like I said, literally every element of this shows composition individually ranks among the best anime, just television in general, has to offer. They don't do just one thing well, they do all things well. Master of all trades, Jack of none. Undoubtedly deserving of a 10/10. |
TerrestriousMar 28, 2019 3:23 PM
| You guys must be joking if you think this anime is anything less than a 10/10. Koyuki is such a clingy girl. She resembles every bit of her father. Energetic, clingy and straightforward. She is like a breath of fresh air and her character itself gave the idea of changing time a new dimension.  What can I say more about Matsuda-san. He didn't change at all from the start to the end and when we all thought he passed away too! Yotarou's description of Rakugo was amazing and it gave a fitting finale to this amazing anime. Thought's on Shinnosuke's Biological Father: |
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shanimebib said: You guys must be joking if you think this anime is anything less than a 10/10. Koyuki is such a clingy girl. She resembles every bit of her father. Energetic, clingy and straightforward. She is like a breath of fresh air and her character itself gave the idea of changing time a new dimension. What can I say more about Matsuda-san. He didn't change at all from the start to the end and when we all thought he passed away too! Yotarou's description of Rakugo was amazing and it gave a fitting finale to this amazing anime. The person appearing on the cushion was the person you wanted to listen to your Rakugo most of all. Unlike some others I don't think it was an hint of Yakumo being the father, who else it could be? Shinnosuke is young and didn't get to listen as often as the others and he was his family. When he said Tou-chan (about Yotaro) the words don't match the mouth LOL, I think he was originally saying papa. It's miyokichi that had the child out of revenge. Konatsu had one because she was Sukeroku blood to stay alive, if we may say. She was also getting old, I thought she was younger, but if Matsuda was 72 then Yakumo was in his 60' and her in her 30'. |
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| 100/100 i love this series very much. I love the story about generations with a long time span like this. i cried when watching most of episodes. i kinda want to see the real world when the moment Yakumo die. I think i will be in tears for days lol. about the revelation.... i kinda dont want to believe it ;_; because they were like father and daughter, and if they did it, konatsu might be the one who asked him. For now I'm telling myself to believe that Shinnosuke is the son of the Gang Boss. For the sake of father-daughter relation of Yakumo and Konatsu. About the hints. There are so many hints. About the sleep crying scene, and the last scene before Yakumo's death when Shinnosuke throwing the sakura petals. I felt the hints at the scene when Yakumo performing rakugo in the dead world. There is that pillow that can calls the most dear person, and it called Shinnosuke. idk man... maybe he love him so much because shinnosuke is his son or just simply love him as a grandchild... aaa i'm confused!! But if he is the son of Yakumo, i have to accept it somehow. We can look at the positive side: 1. At least yakumo blood and sukeroku blood is together now. BFF for lyfe. 2. Shinnosuke father is not a criminal. it's THE Yakumo, duh! Yota must be in relief to know this. 3. Yakumo's bloodline is continuing. It doesnt stop at him. At last he has his own son! 4. Yakumo is a hot guy. I want to f**k him as well lol. But if people suspect that Shinnosuke is the gang boss child, that means Konatsu is sleeping around with several guys.. and most of them are old men (?) who has a many age gap with her. Maybe Konatsu have a dad issue? i dont know how this works lol. Well this plot twist really affect my view on the whole story lol. I want to ignore this but I can't... I will accept the truth no matter what because I really love this series very much. The character, the story, the art, the rakugo, the conflicts. I love them so much. It's so sad that this has to end :(( I want to see the children more!! |
rachipupuMar 27, 2017 3:55 AM
| ♪ Do re mi fa pupupu, waa~~ ♪ |
gloomspirit said: Soooo, a few comments about what I think it should have been better or left me unsatisfied. 3. For some reason it bothers me the appearance of adult Shinosuke. As a kid he resembled to Sukeroku and as an adult he resembles to Yakumo....ok...I can feel the author really wants to push the sudden revelation really hard :v Physical appearance aside, what troubles me the most is his personality, it had the same thing as for his physical appearance. I know it's not set in stone that one's childhood personality would be the same as they grow up BUT as how things where in the anime all of the characters kept their essence through their life. So when I see child Shinosuke and adult Shinosuke I feel they're two completely different people, and that...that bothers me. 4. While watching the anime I looked for other manga the author wrote then I found out most of them are BL, so when the revelation came in my acceptance phase I could only think "I bet the author only wanted Sukeroku and Yakumo to have a son XD". Because when I analyze the implication Konatsu gave I think it really doesn't add anything to the show it's just fanservice for me. LOL I thought exactly the same! XD And the apparence of Shinnosuke also annoyed me for the same reasons. I thought it was mostly fan service. He looked a bit different in the manga though. I thought the father was Mangetsu because if I were Konatsu wanting a revenge I would choose a storyteller, and most likely a rival and I wouldn't say anything because I wouldn't care for the father and would want keep the child all for myself. Also Shinnosuke wears glasses.... |
AnnickMar 27, 2017 3:04 PM
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| When I saw the scene, I though the debt to the mafia boss was to take Yotaro with him. They usually don't let people go away that easily. Not only the mafia let him go but they didn't charge him anything and he kept all his fingers. He asked Sukeroku, "If Konatsu becomes happy, would you be able to move on?" I.e, the apparition stop appearing before him. Kiku himself would be at peace, thinking he can atone for his own part which led to the 2 deaths. Ah...That makes sense. I also thought that he might have let her do, because fed-up with it and wanted her to sort out her feelings..or maybe he was secretly hoping she would stab him that way hehehe....;) Anyway, he didn't go to hell so ... and had enough money to move on. |
AnnickMar 27, 2017 4:54 PM
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| Woah! This is my first comment ever but I couldn't resist! WHAT A RIDE ! It's been a looong time since I was emotionally invested to something. And I absolutely don't regret it! Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu had it all; intriguing plot, superb direction, powerful performances from the seiyuus *fangirl screaming* Akira Ishida everyone! and above all realistic and well-written characters. I could go on and on about how unparalleled this piece of art is but I think you get my point! Anyway, just like many of you, I still feel puzzled about a certain controversial subplot, so I wanted to share some of my thoughts with you! :) Annick said: I wish I saw it but I didn't, even with the clues, I just saw some parental love nothing else. So I tried really hard to see it re-watching the episodes, keeping this in mind and it didn't make Yakumo more likable. Like he made the same mistake as with Miyokichi, just letting women do as they please, not really taking responsibility, letting another take care of the girl in the end. In conclusion I came to think, it was just a one time thing and he regretted it. I saw the love he had for Shin and Yotaro and even Konatsu, but I didn't see the sexual interest he had for her. I can see Konatsu had mixed feeling but acting the same way after she had slept with him and was in her 30 seemed quite childish to me. Anyway she did say in the last episode that it was maybe koi (so romantic feeling she had for him) when she was young but you see it was not that obvious for her at that time. Now she's old, she think she might have been in love with him. What I call cheap is that plot of the girl falling for the the paternal figure/older man who took care of her, I saw it countless of time already, I'm fed up with it. For once we had a nice reluctant adoptive father and rebellious daughter relationship, I liked it. He didn't want a child, she didn't want him as a father, they learned to know each other better, they became a real family in the end. Isn't nice enough? I loved that story but in the last episode, when we know we will never know more about it, they hinted it was more than that and again we fall back into josei cliches. That is why I call it a cheap plot. If the author really wanted to show us that story, I was okay to see it, even if I saw it countless of time and I'm fed up, she could have show us more, torture Yakumo more...really I wanted her to show me what she had in mind and expect it to be original. But I found the parent relationship more enjoyable and original, I didn't need the romance part. Some people liked it, good for them, some people think it was a cheap plot like me, too bad for us. "her way of having Bon and Sukeroku still live in this world through Shinnosuke" Exactly, I may use funny expressions but that's it. To me, the unseen romance part with Yakumo and Konatsu just served to that, having a child with both genes. I'm not saying Konatsu did that for that reason, I'm saying the "Author" did that for that reason and had no intention of developing the story between the other too. And since the author mainly wrote yaoi, I like to joke about the fact she just wanted Shin and Bon to have a baby but used Konatsu for it. ;) But really, she didn't need to do that, because Shinnosuke grew up with Yakumo and was a real groupie, like sensei said, there was a Yakumo aura around him. Yakumo was already living through him so was Shin, Just blood and genes is not enough to form personality, children take from their environnent. So my point is: having a kid with both genes is just fanservice and the Author's fantasy. Then they go on hinting the kid is a genius in rakugo (like it's Shin and Bon talent reunited!!!) ....and I am Meh.....too easy... but it's my opinion as you said. [...] I'm also considering that the author is so used to draw yaoi that she depicted the relationship between men way better than with women and it's her fault if Bon doesn't seem interested. ^You pretty much said what was in my mind since the last episode. Thank you! I will just add this: While I do believe that Konatsu had romantic feelings towards him at some point in her life, I think it's waaay too out of character for Kiku to be a potential lover to her; even if it was on the spur of the moment. Apart from the fact that this is a -somewhat- familial relationship we are talking about, his adoptive daughter is also the biological child of his best friend and his ex-lover. Yes, we have already seen him "lose" it with Miyokichi in that fateful episode back in season 1 but he just doesn't strike me as a person who is willing to indulge in this kind of temptation with Konatsu, mainly because of the circumstances around it. I mean... he is flawed and moral grey like all the characters in this story, but he seems to have a code of honour; and that's why I refuse to believe that he would act all aloof and as if nothing happened, in case of~ And as you said, the possibility of Shinnosuke having the genes of both Sukeroku and Yakumo is quite the fanservice, but I could accept it (as the single flaw of this story) if it didn't add any unnecessary complexity to Kiku's character and his established relationship with Konatsu. *Please mangaka of SGRS, just let the guy be without it! He is awesome as he is!* Tbh, I have this theory for a while... Like I said it's just a theory and we probably will never know but, like in real life, we are not supposed to know everything and that's why I love SGRS so much! Oh, I'm gonna miss this anime! Jaslen said: Besides, Higuchi does like to rock the boat, doesn't he? Probably the writer in him. In the same manner, the revelation of who the father is could have been, but wasn't revealed conclusively. I rather think she left it to us to wonder. All the so called hints weren't anything that I had missed. There was a dread early on that he might have been the father, not because I thought it was certain foreshadowing, but simply because she wouldn't reveal who the father was. It was simply "please don't let it be.. not without good reason". I was able to dispel the thought. So, it's a matter of interpretation. As for Konatsu not admitting or denying that Kiku was the father to Higuchi, I feel she made the right call. This was her secret to take to her grave. He has no choice but to leave her alone with the response she gave. ^And this is what I think that sums up the entire point of the "revelation". Kumota gave us a reason to create theories and theories about SGRS in order to never really forget about it, even if it has already ended. Just like Code Geass! And it's funnier that way! |
alaepou said: ^You pretty much said what was in my mind since the last episode. Thank you! I will just add this: While I do believe that Konatsu had romantic feelings towards him at some point in her life, I think it's waaay too out of character for Kiku to be a potential lover to her; even if it was on the spur of the moment. Apart from the fact that this is a -somewhat- familial relationship we are talking about, his adoptive daughter is also the biological child of his best friend and his ex-lover. Yes, we have already seen him "lose" it with Miyokichi in that fateful episode back in season 1 but he just doesn't strike me as a person who is willing to indulge in this kind of temptation with Konatsu, mainly because of the circumstances around it. I mean... he is flawed and moral grey like all the characters in this story, but he seems to have a code of honour; and that's why I refuse to believe that he would act all aloof and as if nothing happened, in case of~ And as you said, the possibility of Shinnosuke having the genes of both Sukeroku and Yakumo is quite the fanservice, but I could accept it (as the single flaw of this story) if it didn't add any unnecessary complexity to Kiku's character and his established relationship with Konatsu. *Please mangaka of SGRS, just let the guy be without it! He is awesome as he is!* Tbh, I have this theory for a while... Like I said it's just a theory and we probably will never know but, like in real life, we are not supposed to know everything and that's why I love SGRS so much! Oh, I'm gonna miss this anime! My first thought when she said she was pregnant went for Mangetsu and I thought the same about the reason of her silence. But Mangetsu ruined it when he got all surprised and jealous when Yotaro present him "his son", so I thought that it meant he never had his chance with her. Also are Shinnosuke real glasses or hipster fake glasses? I don't remember Konatsu or Kiku wearing some when younger. When she got pregnant she went to tell Yakumo and Matsuda, or was it Yakumo then Matsuda? I found it weird that she would tell the father in front of another person, or in a house where there could be other persons. Let's say she told Yakumo, then Matsuda. So they slept together like 1-2 months ago, so not that long ago, she tells him she pregnant, he tells her to do as she wants, Matsuda proposes that she live with them, then they both leave. Matsuda is pissed off, Yakumo says he doesn't like it either but women are free to do as they please. Later we see Konatsu crying before telling Yotaro. Because Yakumo doesn't give a damn? Hm.... but here I must admit they had some kind of relationship, because why telling him? (If not the father) to make him jealous? To piss him off (because bringing shame on the house), or just telling her family? And if Yakumo didn't like the fact that she was having a baby without a father why did he do it? Or was he lying in front of Matsuda? |
AnnickMar 27, 2017 10:38 PM
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| I always found weird she had an affair with the Yakuza (according to the previous episodes, even if it's not the case) and even weirder that she used to like him. It contradicts the first episode. Now I may confuse the anime, ova and manga but if I remember well she didn't have a high opinion of Yakuza. |
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| This is good shit. The last episode invoked back the strong feelings I had from watching Rakugo the first time. Now I have to rewatch it. It has also really raised the bar standard for a good drama anime to me. |
| allo |
| Hey guys I just got a revelation. (yeah me again) What was the promise he made to Sukeroku? U_U So that's it, it was said that Yakumo and Konatsu were under Sukeroku's curse (okay maybe they didn't say it in the anime but it was in the manga) And I truly wondered what it meant. Yakumo was thinking Sukeroku ghost was not able to move on because he wanted something...and Yakumo thought he had to put his spirit to rest. Someone said earlier that it was maybe to make konatsu happy and it made sense but now....What I'm thinking about: it's the promise! And now the creepiest part: In two occasions (manga/ova) Yakumo said that he recognized those eyes talking about Konatsu's eyes and I thought naively that he was talking about Miyokichi, but Konatsu has Sukeroku's eyes, so I thought "it's the way she looks at him", he also said God was cruel making her a woman, and of course I thought it was because she couldn't do rakugo....but what if....what if... You follow me? So instead of the fanservice baby, we have Sukeroku & Yakumo (Shinno) together doing the new rakugo and keeping the tradition (fulfilling their promise). Even if many people pointed out that they still live through Shinnosuke, it didn't make as much sense to me as: they still live to keep that promise! Maybe for some it makes no difference but to me it makes more sense. Is it possible that Yakumo, all depressed, suicidal, old and seeing ghosts thought that he was manipulated by Sukeroku/kami to play along with Konatsu? It may be way creepier than just a romance but goddamit it fits the genre.... And if you want more twisted theories... Did Konatsu remind him or Miyokichi or Sukeroku? Here the only scene for me showing maybe a bit more than the paternal side. https://track5.mixtape.moe/rjludj.webm |
AnnickMar 28, 2017 12:45 PM
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dm106 said: Guys, Yakumo IS Shinnosuke's father. In episode 11 or was it 10, Konatsu says "I'm a slave to my blood." meaning that like her mother she had feelings for Kiku-san. Though it can have other interpretations... It's hard to believe: when I first heard that Shin has Sukeroku and Yakumo's blood (I was like; WHAT?!!!): now it makes sense: Sukeroku is Konatsu's father ( makes Shin's Real grandfather) and that makes Yakumo his biological father: my eyes are rolling from the shock: I'm surprised some fans discovered that long before I did. Now I really have to re-watch the anime again so I'll catch it a lot more from it ( hints that I didn't catch it the first time). i still can't believe Yakumo would do such a thing to someone who he raised as his daughter: or maybe there's something else, he just took her in as his atonment and it's never about daugther-father relatsionhip. Konatsu acted as part of her revenge towards Yakumo who claims he's the one who killed her parents and chained him for life by him having a child from her ( and teh same time she had romantic feelings for him, what a shock both mother and daugther fallen in love with the same man). Sadly, it turned out she was partly the cause of her own parent's death and Bon took responsibility for her atonement. All he did was to protect her and yet she also saved him as well, there are times when he wanted to take his own life and yet her presence is what prevented him from leaving this world: their relationship is really something else, something you don't normally see. 0_o I wished their relationship was always about a daughter- father relationship instead how it turn out in disguise: my head can't stop from spinning.... "dizzy" |
sweetangieMar 27, 2017 11:14 PM
sweetangie said: dm106 said: Guys, Yakumo IS Shinnosuke's father. In episode 11 or was it 10, Konatsu says "I'm a slave to my blood." meaning that like her mother she had feelings for Kiku-san. Though it can have other interpretations... It's hard to believe: when I first heard that Shin has Sukeroku and Yakumo's blood (I was like; WHAT?!!!): now it makes sense: Sukeroku is Konatsu's father ( makes Shin's Real grandfather) and that makes Yakumo his biological father: my eyes are rolling from the shock: I'm surprised some fans discovered that long before I did. Now I really have to re-watch the anime again so I'll catch it a lot more from it ( hints that I didn't catch it the first time). i still can't believe Yakumo would do such a thing to someone who he raised as his daughter: or maybe there's something else, he just took her in as his atonment and it's never about daugther-father relatsionhip. Konatsu acted as part of her revenge towards Yakumo who claims he's the one who killed her parents and chained him for life by him having a child from her ( and teh same time she had romantic feelings for him, what a shock both mother and daugther fallen in love with the same man). Sadly, it turned out she was partly the cause of her own parent's death and Bon took responsibility for her atonement. All he did was to protect her and yet she also saved him as well, there are times when he wanted to take his own life and yet her presence is what prevented him from leaving this world: their relationship is really something else, something you don't normally see. 0_o I wished their relationship was always about a daughter- father relationship instead how it turn out in disguise: my head can't stop from spinning.... "dizzy" She's the slave of her blood, but her blood is also Sukeroku blood. And the mangaka said they were bonded by Sukeroku's curse. What does that mean? Even so, in the scene where she says that, they also imply a father-daughter relationship, it not like they had NEVER seen it that way according to some. She thanked he for raising her, he said: you never grew tired of watching then (children) I think they are playing with us. |
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| This series is so beautiful! I am going to miss it! Now, I never thought of Shin as Yakumo's kid...and we will never know who the dad was... It was so nice to see their daughter and Shin so grow up, and I got happy to see Kona being able to do rakugo.8/10 |
 |
There is not, I was just kidding XD sorry....m(_ _)m Although....there is a rumor as what he had a child with the daughter of his best friend that looked like him like two peas in a pod ku ku ku.... And maybe the ghost of Sukeroku was watching D: *shudders* |
AnnickMar 29, 2017 1:39 AM
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Annick said: I'm not saying Konatsu did that for that reason, I'm saying the "Author" did that for that reason and had no intention of developing the story between the other too. And since the author mainly wrote yaoi, I like to joke about the fact she just wanted Shin and Bon to have a baby but used Konatsu for it. ;) But really, she didn't need to do that, because Shinnosuke grew up with Yakumo and was a real groupie, like sensei said, there was a Yakumo aura around him. Yakumo was already living through him so was Shin, Just blood and genes is not enough to form personality, children take from their environnent. So my point is: having a kid with both genes is just fanservice and the Author's fantasy. Then they go on hinting the kid is a genius in rakugo (like it's Shin and Bon talent reunited!!!) ....and I am Meh.....too easy... but it's my opinion as you said. Not really fanservice but definitely "Author's fantasy". That's why even though the fatherhood will never be canon, the author bringing that up in the end and even making another chapter to explain there was indeed romantic love between them make only sense if yakumo being the father is what the mangaka wanted. I'm also considering that the author is so used to draw yaoi that she depicted the relationship between men way better than with women and it's her fault if Bon doesn't seem interested. I also liked some comments I've read stating that this Yaoi author somehow managed to "create" a son out of the fictional Sukeroku-Yakumo couple. It makes even more sense if you look at it from the mangaka background, interests, other works but it doesn't make so much sense if you only consider the context of the story. That's really interesting and funny, like "ooops! she couldn't resist, she did it again!" |
FrozenRaider said: Shit...that was good. Matsuda is immortal (true story). Matsuda is shinigami |
| well....what can i say? seriously i can't describe how AWESOME this anime goddamnit T__T 10000000/10 |
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Ysad_Ziwezhan said: Annick said: I'm not saying Konatsu did that for that reason, I'm saying the "Author" did that for that reason and had no intention of developing the story between the other too. And since the author mainly wrote yaoi, I like to joke about the fact she just wanted Shin and Bon to have a baby but used Konatsu for it. ;) But really, she didn't need to do that, because Shinnosuke grew up with Yakumo and was a real groupie, like sensei said, there was a Yakumo aura around him. Yakumo was already living through him so was Shin, Just blood and genes is not enough to form personality, children take from their environnent. So my point is: having a kid with both genes is just fanservice and the Author's fantasy. Then they go on hinting the kid is a genius in rakugo (like it's Shin and Bon talent reunited!!!) ....and I am Meh.....too easy... but it's my opinion as you said. Not really fanservice but definitely "Author's fantasy". That's why even though the fatherhood will never be canon, the author bringing that up in the end and even making another chapter to explain there was indeed romantic love between them make only sense if yakumo being the father is what the mangaka wanted. I'm also considering that the author is so used to draw yaoi that she depicted the relationship between men way better than with women and it's her fault if Bon doesn't seem interested. I also liked some comments I've read stating that this Yaoi author somehow managed to "create" a son out of the fictional Sukeroku-Yakumo couple. It makes even more sense if you look at it from the mangaka background, interests, other works but it doesn't make so much sense if you only consider the context of the story. That's really interesting and funny, like "ooops! she couldn't resist, she did it again!" The problem as many Japanese fans also pointed out is, the extra came with a limited edition and was rare (I think they printed a new batch since) so most of people just had the regular edition, and in the anime there is not much about it. It also makes me wonder what was the whole thing with the Kakuza. In the first episode she looks down on Yakuza, she freaks out about Yotaro tattoo. In the manga when Yakumo says he will talk to Yotaro big boss because he know him, you see Konatsu annoyed with "not Yakuza again". So I think it contradicts the extra showing her around the Yakuza (but it is also said that they will scare her...mkay...). Then when the Yakuza might be arrested, she runs to the restaurant, stays behind a door crying...blablabla... So it shows that she was somehow close to him....since when? Even Yotaro is surprised that his boss who told her to "shut up woman" in the first episode is now calling her Kona-chan. According to the anime she got closer to them working in the restaurant. In the extra while she was a teen... Or maybe she was just really emphatic with the mistress? I wonder if the mangaka knew what she was doing or was just pressed to put drama now and then to keep people reading. The rakugo parts in the anime were entrancing but I get that it can be long in the manga. Well whatever her intention I think she didn't do a good job with some parts. Some people might not agree but when I was reading Japanese ratings about the final book, lot of people were not satisfied with the last chapter...So if lot of your fans think it was a masterpiece until the last chapter, you failed somewhere. :/ I don't think it shows romantic love in the extra, more teen infatuation and an adult annoyed by this. But I agree that she wanted us to believe something might happened later in the 10 years not covered by the story and like sensei we wonder if Shinnosuke is not his biological son. Yes it's like a BL end somehow. XD I still think it's fanservice because I know some people who are delighted to have Shin&Bon baby and don't give a damn about how and when. I'm watching it again but I have hard time with the hints, I'm not sure about the translation in some parts. Personally, I think the story is better if he's not the father, not for moral reasons but because it fits the story, characters, and dialog better .. If he is, meh... just another Josei story. |
AnnickMar 30, 2017 12:57 AM
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| Now that's Shinnosuke's an adult, he looks like Yakumo which really strengthens my suspicion that Yakumo is his dad, I don't know how and why it happened but he looks like a cross between Yakumo and Sukeroku. He has Sukeroku's hair and Yakumo's bishounen looks. They may not have confirmed it but it's pretty obvious. Who else could be the baby daddy? Also the way Konatsu gets angry at Yakumo is like how an unloved and frustrated wife acts like lol Shinnosuke's a bit of a siscon, the way he told his sister that she's the cutest in the world was funny. His sister looks just like Yotarou. Yotarou's dad bod! I love it. OMG Matsuda-san's still alive!!! Yay! I also love how Yotarou calls Shinnosuke, "Bon." He has also taken on the name "Kikuhiko" these feels too much for my tiny heart. TT__TT Now Yotarou is no long Yotarou, he is now Yakumo. |
| 臭い- |
| Wow... I don't even where to start talking after watching the finale. About anime as a whole or the maniacal revelation or twists that happened in the finale haha. So lets talk about finale first. First off, I was surprised to see Shin, who's supposed to look more like Sukeroku appearing off as the spitting image of Kikuhiko. That seriously got me wondering if it was supposed to be some sort of symbolism or not. And, that is when, sensei asks the most awaited question everyone was looking forward to. Dunno about others but the revelation was certainly surprising if you ask me. I would've considered that as the possibility but Kikuhiko came more off as the bystander in the mess, it didn't seemed like his character do that. I don't recall seeing any implications either. Second twist what I wasn't expecting was Yotaro inheriting Yakumo's name haha. He has the style of Sukeroku and deep admiration for Yakumo. So I guess it's nice too see that happen. You know I just super loved the ending segment of Rakugo's finale when ending credits showed up and anime plays Sukeroku, Kikuhiko and Yotaro's Rakugo lines one last time. A nice way to close anime with Yotaro's line. Moving on to discussion of the whole series, I don't know how to summarize it up. The journey had its ups and down and even though I had a glee on my face watching the finale, I couldn't help but felt like crying seeing how astonishing the ride was and now... it is coming to an end. The story and narration was unique. But what basically sealed the deal were characters. Such clear cut showcasing of the individuals that you can't help but get charmed by them. The in depth introspection makes you relate and sympathize with them. Coupled with a natural and beautifully done storytelling, we get a masterpiece that will go down as one of the most fine drama in the history of anime. While I prefer S1 over the sequel, S2 was not bad at all. Because I think S1 handled the drama more well and left a strong impression on me. So to summarize it up, the anime - Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is the story about an artist's compassion and struggles he face during his path of pursuing Rakugo, a form of Japanese storytelling, as various fates of people intertwine together to give us one beautifully orchestrated piece of art of all time. Without any doubt, the whole anime S1 and S2 combined are 10/10 material :') Would love to see similar work again. "If you want to make your way in the pleasure game, you'd better remember my face. In Yoshiwara or Senju, I am without peer...Saheiji, the man who makes a living by staying behind. Go home and say hello to your master for me! So long! " :') |
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| What can you do, women love twisted dramas like this, so that's what you are gonna get from titles like this. Cuckoldry, prostitution, domestic violence, sex with paternal figures or between people who hate each other, single mothers (not widows), marrying someone to spite someone else, etc., it's all par for the course. Usually I steer clear of shows of this sort, but this time it simply was too good to miss it. I just chalk everything up to the protagonists being in the entertainment industry; that way every bit of degeneracy is justified. |
| Such a fantastic series overall. I really thought this second half would be weaker and more standalone, but instead it strengthened the whole thing with a lot more focus on Kikuhiko than I thought. I do think it had more weaker episodes in the bunch, but in the end the rest did such a great job it didn't matter. Also I didn't think this would adapt right up to the end so that was nice. Also that revelation, and here I thought Shinnosuke resembling Kikuhiko was just symbolic. |
 |
| Oh well, another good anime of this season had ended. I don't know if there would be another sequel in the future. Anyway, I'm gonna rate this anime an 8 out of 10 score overall. |
| Haters always gonna hate. |
| I'm just noticing the discussion over Shin's parentage....Yakumo being the father was hinted at from the last ep of Season 1 lol...People have been theorizing this ages ago xD "I'm not gonna let you destroy Rakugo" - Yakumo IS/WAS Rakugo - What better way to ensure the former from not happening by producing an heir who not only embodies Yakumo but also embodies Sukeroku whom together with Yakumo were supposed to take Rakugo to new heights via both of their styles...Plus it's not like they're blood or anything lol and it explains why he was so apologetic to Sukeroku's Ghost Also, you guys have to be blind if you couldn't see that yong Shin was literally a psychical combination of Sukeroku and Yakumo when they were kids lol |
Tokoya said: I'm just noticing the discussion over Shin's parentage....Yakumo being the father was hinted at from the last ep of Season 1 lol...People have been theorizing this ages ago xD "I'm not gonna let you destroy Rakugo" - Yakumo IS/WAS Rakugo - What better way to ensure the former from not happening by producing an heir who not only embodies Yakumo but also embodies Sukeroku whom together with Yakumo were supposed to take Rakugo to new heights via both of their styles...Plus it's not like they're blood or anything lol and it explains why he was so apologetic to Sukeroku's Ghost Also, you guys have to be blind if you couldn't see that yong Shin was literally a psychical combination of Sukeroku and Yakumo when they were kids lol Even so, what he said in the last episode S1 in Japanese is not quite the same as the translation. There are a few scenes where the translation is a bit off. The more I'm watching it and reading the manga the less it makes sense. If you want to find hints for mangetsu, the yakuza or Yakumo you will find them, they are trolling us. He's also a combination of Mangetsu and Shin. He's wearing glasses, he has good memory and some talent. Yakumo had no talent, he worked for it. Yakumo is also calling her musume (daughter). The only thing that is sure it's she won't tell us. |
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| So Master Yakumo never died with Rakugo after all, seeing Yotaro becoming the next master Yakumo. It was great especially seeing Konatsu appreciating and paying respect to the late Yakumo. I loved this series so much. |
How I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb --- Dr Strangelove  |
| So many long comments here. Wow. I'm very late to the party. Probably because I didn't want to finish this series. :( Mich666 said: Hydra0411 said: That father revelation at the end put me off quite considerably. For all the people who are confused about this revelation they actually forshadowed it well, and even though they didn't go as far as to tell it, they made it pretty much obvious as early as this scene in episode 2:  So just rewatch that part to get the hint. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Wouldn't that mean Yakumo and Konatsu were still sleeping together while she was with Yotarou? Or was that a little bit before she got into a relationship with Yotarou? I'm a little hazy on the details, but if they were still sleeping together, that sucks for Yotarou. When the reveal happened in this episode, it seemed to me like it was a one-time thing. And she happened to get pregnant with Shinnosuke. That's what I assumed. In any case, I'm honestly not surprised with the reveal. They never confirmed that it was the Yakuza boss, and thematically, this works. Almost poetic. Shinnosuke has the blood of both Yakumo and Sukeroku. This is clearly what the mangaka was going for at the end. Listen, I think it's a little weird as well. Yakumo raised Konatsu, there was a huge age gap, and sleeping with your dead best friend's daughter feels wrong on so many levels. However, Yakumo always had problems when it came to relationships. He had a tough childhood, which obviously led to a lot of issues he had to carry around for the rest of his life. Konatsu probably had strong feelings, on both ends of the spectrum. It just seems like a weird and awkward night of passion for the two of them is something that totally could have happened. What I'm trying to say is, it's weird and kind of creepy, but also somewhat realistic given the two of them. And Rakugo was a realistic series. Anyway, people have said it here better than I ever could, so I'll just leave it at this: Rakugo was an absolute masterpiece and I'll miss it dearly. Also, Matsuda=such an underrated character. Loved that guy. |
| The amount of people that think Yakumo is now dead certain the father of Shin is funny to me. Konatsu purposefully left the answer ambiguous, so it could be Yakumo, Mangetsu, the gang Boss, or Anihei. Yakumo was just Sensei's theory, and Konatsu did not give him enough information to confirm the theory. She's taking the secret to the grave with her, and in the end it does not matter. Regardless of who is the biological father, Shin is Yotaro's son, as Yotaro says himself in episode 3. |
| every single one of my forum posts is dumb and invalid except for 1, I don't claim them it was a different person it was all fake |
| The animation, the sound, the story, the characters, the feels... damn this show was great. 9/10 better than S1 imo, tho that father revelation felt kinda weird. |
| Nice end to this series, and the suprise that Shinnosuke could be the Bon son!!! O__O New age, new changes, and new advances....the rakugo evolution in this beautiful episode!!! 8/10. |
| So, maybe Shinnosuke's father is Yakumo OoO. It's weird, but interesting at the same time. I'm really going to miss all the characters. I was so happy to see that Matsuda was still alive, this man is the kindness incarnate. The Rakugo survived to Yakumo and there is now a lot of other storytellers. I was really didn't expect an happy ending, but it was a perfect way to wrap this anime. Beautiful anime and long live to Rakugo! All the seiyuu were so talented! It's really amazing. |
SakaitsuApr 9, 2017 12:40 AM
![http://myanimelist.net/signature/Oxu.png"](http://myanimelist.net/signature/Oxu.png"){kind=link}
| soooo excited to see this anime be #16!!! glad it's getting the recognition it deserves. the first season is also in top 100 atm, so happy :') Shinonosuke became so huge! lol so funny to see everyone get older. i kinda hoped he would stay cheeky and all cheery, he became kinda timid. i was expecting him to be more like his sister i remember i used to dislike Yotaru, but now he's probably one of my favorite characters from this show. he's just so refreshing one thing that kinda bothers me is the fact that Yakumo is the real father, or at least it's implied that he is. i just can't even imagine that happening |
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