| Well anime is sometimes censored for Japanese television so by the consequence of this fansubs can be censored when they sub it as it airs as oppose to official releases that get the uncut DVD version. But I don't think Baby_Naruto was comparing dubs and subs that way. He was just making a statement as a response to "one of the biggest hands dub-haters play", that not even the majority is that way anymore. Or at least that was how I read it. |
 Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
XTApocalypse said: I don't know how you figure that, because as a generalization, they're cut, edited, and censored a LOT more often than subtitles ever are, namely fansubs. In fact that's one of the biggest hands dub-haters play. I said MOST Dubs in the past FEW years that ARE NOT 4Kids or Nelvana. |
 My Anime List | My Video Game Collection Discord ID: KidRyan89 | Telegram ID: KidRyan |
Grim0013 said: I agree with them on that last point. Dubtitles are the bastard offspring of sub and dub, offering the worst of both. Define "dubtitles." I think subtitles in general are much more choppily-translated, awkward-sounding, and generally poor writing all-around. Or at least that's how all of the subtitles I've seen have been when compared to their respective dubs. |
| Dubtitles. When they use the dub script to make subtitles instead of actually translating the Japanese original. Short and sweet of it. I understand the frustration, I would feel ripped off it I was in their shoes. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| What's wrong with that? I actually prefer those, honestly. They make a lot more sense when read and they actually read the same as the audio if you're including them for the hearing impaired or - more likely - screen text translation. |
| Sub fans want their subs. I really think that's unfair to them. Also I think dubtitles give official subs a bad name. I really don't think they make any more or less sense, really. Good translation will make sense. Sucks if you every want to compare the translations. That can be pretty fun. Not sure if they made a habit of it, but the latest release of Yu Yu Hakusho had both dubtitles and subtitles available. But I think the major problem is that there is usually one or the other. And another big problem is that the dubtitles aren't for the dub, but for the original Japanese. So I doubt this was a convenience for the hearing impaired. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| I really don't see how more refined scripted dialogue makes the experience any less authentic, personally. To me it's just a matter of bad English vs. good English - it's going to be English no matter how you slice it, so why pick the less-grammatically-organized of the two scripts? The only way to make it truly authentic is to learn Japanese yourself - translation is never completely perfect. |
| sigh...the good subtitles won't be the "less-grammatically-organized" . Some like the more closely translation free from revision for any reason. I think the fans that want it should get the subtitles instead of dubtitles. The scripts differences can be pretty significant. Obvious there is a enough of difference for people to notice. Lets put this in perspective: I guess if I was like you and hated 4kids with a passion. And I liked this anime, Shaman King or Yugioh of which was dubbed by them. Didn't like the dub. Then I got excited that they were releasing the series uncut subtitled. I buy it, watch it. Find out that the sub version is just the dub script. How annoyed would I be? Beside this is very rare occurrence, so there isn't much variety. So this kind of stuff is what riles people. For me, it's more of the principle of the thing and knowing your audience. Not really which is better or more authentic. There should be a option. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| ... then it wouldn't be an uncut version. It's not the same situation at all, it's just fraudulent advertising. Maybe it's just my experience with the series I've seen. Excel Saga, Sonic X, MegaMan NT Warrior, Urusei Yatsura, Seikon no Qwaser, a handful of hentai... all the subtitles I've seen, both professional DVD subs and fansubs, have been less realistic and more "scrambled" than most of the dub scripts that I've seen. I don't think it's that, even it's just that unless the dub is obscenely bad, there's never THAT huge a difference between the subtitles and dubbed dialogue anyway, so I don't see what the problem would be with making the two one and the same. The only significant difference might be the Japanese suffixes like "-san," "-sama", etcetera, which is a difference to be sure, but enough to throw a fit over? I find them to be a minor nuisance, but I'm not going to throw a tantrum if one of my dubbed series incorporates them. |
| Not sure how it's not the same situation. You're hoping for something you not getting. This case: not a dubtitle. Anyway, not sure what dubtitles you have seen, but usually the ones people hate are the ones that are similar to the scenario I gave you. Or so I heard. Sub lovers are paying customers, too. I believe that if they want that they should get it. Just like dub-lovers deserve a good dub (or a dub period). You question their preference, and they can question yours. But in the end of the day, unlike dubs, there is really no reason not to do it right. I don't know why they feel the need to do it. You need watch more recent anime. But again it could be what I watch. When I watch sub and dub of the series. Since my anime dub-watching viewing experience seems to be 80% Funimation titles (this was usually a accident).There are some noticeable differences between them. They are know for taking liberties with the script, for better or for worse. (mostly better) And are, yeah, noticeable. FUNi like a natural script, which is why their dubs are loved. The subs are usually a more formal and stiff, but I don't think that make them necessarily bad. Though, a bad dub can be dub that stays true to the original to a point that it's a fault. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| The only series I've seen both subbed and dubbed that I think works exactly as well in both versions is probably FLCL - they seemed to make a point to make sure that the English voices sounded just like the Japanese ones, used extremely close (but fluid in English) dialogue... in their case, it worked, anyway. From a financial perspective, you're right. Give the people what they want and all that jazz. The question really is where the line is drawn. Kind of like your peeve with typecasting, it just sounded like Grim really overexaggerated the whole "dubtitles" thing. It's not like it's a completely different media format - it's just some very slight modifications to make the wording make more sense in 99% of cases. |
| But was FLCL released with dubtitles. That's more of the issue, not whether or not the sub and dub are similar for it to even matter. While, I agree that it was bit overexaggerated. I think dubtitles goes back to a time where the dub was changed quite a bit which I believe where all this hate comes from. Sure now it's not a big deal now, but people have a bad impression of it. But seriously are dubtitles even a issue anymore? Last one I heard a big uproar about was Blood+. It few and far between. I don't think it happens enough where I think one can create a preference. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| Again, it depends on what you consider "dubtitles". It was released, to my knowledge, with very fluid English subtitles that were extremely close but not identical to the dubbed lines and included the title suffixes (-san, -sama, -kun...) in the names. |
| Haven't seen it, but people were pissed. I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier that I understand the frustration and leave it at that. |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
Grim0013 said: The short answer is that I prefer dubbed anime because I find subtitles distracting. To explain by way of comparison, those who prefer subs say that they prefer them because they want to hear the anime as the creator originally intended. They want an audio experience that is as close to the original as possible. This is why they usually prefer their subs translated literally, rather than "dubtitled." Let me say, I agree with them on that last point. Dubtitles are the bastard offspring of sub and dub, offering the worst of both. As to why I prefer dubs...While I still wish to experience the anime as it was intended, I concentrate more on the visual. I can't help but feel as though I am not really watching an anime when I am reading subtitles. It feels more like a manga, except I can't control the rate at which the pages are turned. It makes me feel like I might be missing a small detail somewhere, be it in the art or the dialog. As such, my preference is to SEE the art and HEAR the voices. To me, that is closer to the creator's intent than having your eyes pull double duty. Honestly, I do not care one bit if someone prefers subtitles. That is their choice. However, I cannot help but hold a negative view of anyone who genuinely ridicules others for their equally valid choices. I Agree. I have the same reason for loving Dubs. And always loved Dubs & Subs. And I completly agree with the Last Paragraph x3 |
| Good question, I've always loved dubbed anime because I feel like I can connect to the characters more. I don't like the way Japanese voices sound, as most of them sound the same to me. It's also hard to tell if they're actually good or bad, as we don't know how Japanese put there words into context. I've never understood the love for subbed anime, it must be some type of nostalgia. People praise them as if they're God's but most of the time they overact worse, if not just as much as their dubbed counter parts. Elfen Leid is a good example, and so is Code Geass. I suppose you can view characters differently, as different voices can make characters seem different(Light is a good example). I've seen people refuse to watch dubs, even before seeing them because they just hate dubs so bad. I mean, some girl I know had the nerve to tell me Cowboy Bebop's dub was bad. Not only is it FAR superior to its subbed counter part, but it's also some of the best voice acting an animation. People who diss dubs annoy me, and the sub versions just arn't my cup of tea. Sure, I can watch them but I may as well read the manga if a dub is not available because I will often get the same amount of enjoyment out of it. Did I mention it feels like I'm watching hentai when I watch subbed anime? |
| I don't know, I honestly consider Cowboy Bebop's dub to be pretty average. It certainly wasn't bad, much less horrible, and I love the show - but the more I watch it the less the voice acting stands out to me. It's not an aspect of the show I like or dislike, it's just... there. Which isn't to say the subbed version is better, mind you. I stand by my past answer of the "domino" effect. Back when anime was cartoonier and hard to take seriously (Astro Boy, Gigantor, Speed Racer), someone decided that it was easier to take seriously if he couldn't understand what was being said. He convinced all of his friends of this, turning it into a permanent mindset, and the effect has just carried over into our modern day and age. Even as producers gain more and more appreciation for the size and commercial value of the English audience, traditionalists feel justified in their dub-bashing because they have majority support. It's the only thing they've ever known. |
| Cowboy Bebop's dub was considered excellent at a time when dubs were not so excellent. And it's quite true. Nostalgia anime for me is always dubbed. I mean anime came on TV dubbed, not subbed. But, yeah, dub-haters seem to take few dubs they heard on TV and decide that all dubs are like that. I really hate it when people say they don't like dubs because they always edit the material. *sigh* Also. "traditionalists"? |
Oh pitiful shadow lost in the darkness bringing torment and pain to others, oh damned soul wallowing in your sin...perhaps it is time to die |
| People who defend that dubs are automatically inferior despite changing times. |
| Mostly just preference, I didn't grow up collecting fansubed VHS tapes, nor did I download any off the net. And companies like Ocean Group and Funimation have VA's that I've come to enjoy hearing over the years. While I can respect that some prefer the original Japanese(especially for particular shows that had an already excellent voice cast). I don't see much wrong with wanting to watch anime with english dubbing either. Dubs really aren't that bad nowadays as well, not compared to the 90's at least. |
 |
| I like dubs, because - I don't like reading when I don't have to. - It's kinda easier to get non-anime fans who aren't used to subs to watch anime with you. - It's much easier to eat and watch anime at the same time :P - Reading too much kinda makes me sleepy, and subs go too fast sometimes or too much appears on the screen at once. |
| I'd use Yu Yu Hakusho as an example of that. And I agree with your point, as long as a limit is set. There shouldn't be any details or information lost in translation - as long as that condition is met, I'm happy. |
| It has, in my opinion, the best dub to anything I've ever seen. I've only seen the first few episodes of Hunter x Hunter and it still hasn't grabbed me yet. -_- |
| Welcome to the NHK is probably the best dub I've seen. Reminds me of why I like them so much. |
| I'm not really into that Sub vs Dub thing. I don't hate or like, I just watch the version I'm more familiar with. I always watched my tv series and cartoon in English. It's a normal habit of mine. I never knew that a lot of my favorite cartoon were originally made in Japan up until 2005 (when I started watching my first fansubbed anime). Frankly, I don't really care. I like all Dub. And yes this includes the super censored Yu-Gi-Oh! and the "butchered" One Piece 4Kids because I didn't watch the original Yu-Gi-Oh (I can't compare) and the changes in One Piece aren't really that important. |
| "I'm commander Shepard, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes is my favorite anime in the galaxy" |
| The point isn't really whether or not they change the plot. It's that they don't provide English audiences the same experience the Japanese one is granted. I consider it a form of discrimination. That's changed with One Piece, of course, and 4Kids at least made an effort to release an uncut Yu-Gi-Oh! dub. (It flopped.) There are still plenty of series out there where such is not the case, though, such as Sonic X, off the top of my head. Much different experience between the two versions. |
| I don't understand this whole obsession over the changes, sure some of them are silly and unnecessary but why make a big deal out of it? Like you said, the plot of One Piece didn't change and for me that's the most important thing when I watch a show, that and the characters of course. Everything else is just for the style. No blood? no problem it's for the kids. Lolipop instead of a Cigarette ? nothing of value lost. Removed all Japanese text ? sure, I doesn't affect the plot and the average American can't read them anyway. the Nico Robin outfit ? kids don't really care about boobs. Water Guns instead of Rifle ? Rifle are practically useless in One Piece so the change doesn't affect anything other than making it look more silly than the show already is. Changing rice balls to cookies ? Both are food anyway. The only change I found really unncessary is Luffy (and probably other characters) having their big mouth "censored". What's up with that? lol I haven't watched Sonic X so I cannot comment on that though. |
| "I'm commander Shepard, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes is my favorite anime in the galaxy" |
| I don't care if they want to edit the TV version. They can do whatever they like with it. The problem is that they release their DVD's with those edits, and as long as they own the license, nobody else can come in and make an uncut dub of the series. It's placing all your focus on the target demo, and the hell with everyone else. It doesn't matter if it changes the plot or not, it's the principle of the thing. ... and for that matter, I think it does effect the plot. You can explain guns being used as a weapon. You can't explain water pistols. There's no valid excuse you could give to make such a change canon. Profanity adds power and realism to dialogue, that's why it's used in the first place - the changes they make cater to one audience at the expense of another. Any argument that I can make ultimately sums up to what I've already stated, though: It provides two audiences vastly different experiences for no reason. |
| well there is a reason. They had to do these changes in order to make it appropriate for a younger group. I don't know the laws, but I'm sure they are constrained by something otherwise why would they waste time editing something ? |
| "I'm commander Shepard, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes is my favorite anime in the galaxy" |
| They're not constrained by anything at all, legally. They can release whatever they like on DVD and the ESRB will take it from there. The only thing restraining them is their wallets - they can't market the DVD's to children and still make a profit unless the DVD release is the altered version. Which is kind of what I'm saying. They only cater to their target demo - they're where the money's at. It's a toyetic mindset. Though I suppose I can't rightfully blame them completely - they tried an uncut release of Yu-Gi-Oh! (which I appreciate, despite there only being a couple volumes) and it flopped because nobody bought it. Of course, that's still largely their own fault because they had developed such a notorious reputation with the anime community by that time. |
| It would be kinda cool if all those edited anime series came on a DVD with the option of watching the edited version or the uncut version. Everyone would be happy then. Well, actually, you can never make everyone happy but it would help. :) |
 |
| Is it even possible to do that ? I don't think there's enough space on one disk for 2 video tracks. |
| "I'm commander Shepard, and Legend of the Galactic Heroes is my favorite anime in the galaxy" |
| No, but you can certainly release both versions. |
| How are they able to release DVDs with both the sub and dub versions on the same disk? How does that not take up too much space? |
| |
| Those are multiple audio tracks, with one video track. Video takes up much more space than audio, and audio more than subtitles. |
Hias said: Mostly just preference, I didn't grow up collecting fansubed VHS tapes, nor did I download any off the net. And companies like Ocean Group and Funimation have VA's that I've come to enjoy hearing over the years. While I can respect that some prefer the original Japanese(especially for particular shows that had an already excellent voice cast). I don't see much wrong with wanting to watch anime with english dubbing either. Dubs really aren't that bad nowadays as well, not compared to the 90's at least. stole the words right out of my mouth all execpt for The 90's DUBs comment, alot of them I really liked |
| Hiding Away in the Memory of a Better Day |
| It depends on how many episodes you put on a disk, but most of the dual video tracks I've seen just change out the title captions and opening/closing credits from Japanese to English, and not much else. If there are examples of radical video changes on the same DVD that aren't listed as completely separate episodes, please let us know. Well, besides Initial D. I've also seen video commentary tracks like the pop ups on Excel Saga & Nerima Daikon Brothers. |
AngusApr 14, 2011 10:30 AM
| Ok, that makes sense. |
| |
| There are also something called "image subtitles." I'm not sure what they are, but if they're what they sound like, I have to wonder why more people don't use those for signs and slide cards. Example: The Fullmetal Alchemist logo that appears at the middle point of each episode was in English on the [as] broadcast, as well as the main title sequence. On my DVD's, the main title's in English while the slide cards keep the Japanese logo. |
| The main reason why people like dubs so much is because they don't have to worry about trying to read the subtitles and watch the animation at the same time. That's my main reason for watching dubs as well. But if the dub version is not available for an anime series/season, I'm willing to watch the subs. |
  |
| Quick and short reasons why I watch English Dubbed animes over the subs. - Easier to watch and listen by not reading the subs. Explanation: Most of us anime fans are/were watching it originally subbed but then several instances happen when our attention span only to the subs without realizing the awesomeness of the scenery. That's right! I really am distracted if there is a sub for I tend to read and read to the point of being exhausted. Look here, it is like reading a book but with moving pictures added. Watching and listening it dubbed gives one an experience that would have both visual and audio set at maximum heights as one sees the action intact while the words spoken are easily understood and interpreted by the mind as easy as they are. However, this would not be the case when I am watching live action superhero programs (tokusatsus) like Kamen Rider, Ultraman and Super Sentai as well as Metal Heroes. It is live action and to avoid too much Hong Kong Dub (tvtrope it), better stick to the subs for the live voices as well as the henshin stuffs are done in epic proportions. - The English Dubbed ones are having lesser grammar and spelling errors. Explanation: I find that several subs out there are either rushed or have just little to no care at all as to whether or not their subs are accurate both in translation and grammar. The dub on the other hand, averts misspellings and minimizes the grammar error down to the size of a dime as compared to that of a big plate of the subs. - I understand English more than Japanese. Explanation: I keep on watching EWTN, Discovery Channel, National Geographic Channel, HBO, Cartoon Network, Disney Channel, Solar USA, CNN, BBC and a lot more English language channels out there, supplemented by many English textbooks which are so easy to understand. - I speak English everyday with my national language the Wikang Pilipino/ Filipino (and a dialect we call Visayan) Explanation: Much like the above... Growing up in a country that embraces the English language, the Republic of the Philippines, it is no doubt that English is was and is taught in schools from elementary to college which harnessed my skills in that language. Honestly, I really find English the easiest language to speak and write among other foreign languages out there. Japanese on the other hand is quite difficult for some of their sentences lack pronouns, and when they speak, it is hard for me to know whether or not the person is speaking of "he" or "her" or "it". Another thing is that one syllable can have multiple meanings which can be hard but not like Chinese (albeit it is my ancestral language for I am a Chinese in blood but with a Filipino culture) where it is so difficult to speak. I choose English more for I am able to distinguish several things and it is simple and effective. I admit, I do love the sexy Japanese seiyuu voices, especially Eri Kitamura (Nao Takanashi), Kaori Mizuhashi (Mami Tomoe), Mai Kadowaki (Illyasviel von Einzbern), Rina Satou (Misaka Mikoto) and a lot more but please! For the sake of English, the dub has been chosen as the champ for it. - Everytime the characters speak in English, it is English, not Engrish. Explanation: Whenever we hear the original dub (I mean, the Japanese version), most often they always murder an English word because they follow the pronunciation based upon the Kanas p. Example : ハイエブリボディ！ アイムファイン！ サンキュウ！/Hai Eburibodi! Aim fain! Sankyuu! which means "Hi Everybody! I'm fine! Thank you!" in pure English which sounds awkward, if not a very rich source of NARM (tvtrope it!). Sometimes, it can get really annoying as they cannot pronounce it well. While in English, they sound okay. However, there are some little exceptions like that one in Bakemonogatari wherein Senjougahara said this really well "PTA"---> "Parent Teacher Association" and another specifically in Angel Beats where we have TK speaking it! - Accents. Real, real, real accents. Explanation: A case in Hellsing really brought up a wonderful British and Italian accents which made it much, much, much justifiable. They do not try hard enough to deliver it splendidly for it is the nat'l language of the English VAs. Look, they do not force it out, they are just natural. -English is international! Explanation: No need to expound this, it is already obvious! Many countries like the US, UK, Ireland, The Philippines, Australia, New Zealand and a lot more out there speak English! In statistics, there are more English speakers than Japanese speakers. Of course, all are in the "Your Mileage May Vary" category here but then as a dub lover, I honestly am proud to stand up for the international language that I love a lot. OT side note: Because this is not powered or run by VBulletin, which I have my absolute preference of choice, I just cannot put links here the way I do with forums with VBulletin power. |
HyperCobaltMaxJan 28, 2013 12:02 PM
| A very apt summary, HCM. (I don't know what to call you for short. =( ) HyperCobaltMax said: I find that several subs out there are either rushed or have just little to no care at all as to whether or not their subs are accurate both in translation and grammar. The dub on the other hand, averts misspellings and minimizes the grammar error down to the size of a dime as compared to that of a big plate of the subs. About half the reason for this is that most of the subs that people watch are fansubs (but I have seen it with professional ones all too often as well), and half is that people tend to expect subtitles to be translated into English from Japanese on a word-for-word basis. Which really doesn't work too well - if you don't restructure the dialogue at least enough so that it sounds fluid in English, it will just come out blocky and awkward-sounding. Which, in my experience, I've found most subs - fansubs especially - to be. HyperCobaltMax said: Everytime the characters speak in English, it is English. Not Engrish. Explanation: Whenever we hear the original dub (I mean, the Japanese version), most often they always murder an English word because they follow the pronunciation based upon the Kanas p. Example : ハイエブリボディ！ アイムファイン！ サンキュウ！/Hai Eburibodi! Aim fain! Sankyuu! which means "Hi Everybody! I'm fine! Thank you!" in pure English which sounds awkward, if not a very rich source of NARM (tvtrope it!). Sometimes, it can get really annoying as they cannot pronounce it well. While in English, they sound okay. However, there are some little exceptions like that one in Bakemonogatari wherein Senjougahara said this really well "PTA"---> "Parent Teacher Association" and another specifically in Angel Beats where we have TK speaking it! I agree, and would even go a step farther than that. I think that, in most cases, English speakers are able to speak Japanese/use Japanese terminology better than Japanese speakers are able to use English. Most of the reason for this is because the English language incorporates many more sounds and syllables than Japanese... not all of them, mind you; having spoken English all my life, I still can't get that rolling "R" used in Spanish and similar languages down. But syllabically, Japanese is one of the less complicated languages. HyperCobaltMax said: - Accents. Real, real, real accents. Explanation: A case in Hellsing really brought up a wonderful British and Italian accents which makes it much, much, much justifiable. They do not try hard enough to deliver it splendidly for it is the nat'l language of the English VAs. Look, they do not force it out, they are just natural. Another big point. And Hellsing has one of my favorite dubs chiefly because of the authenticity of the accents. It just feels odd to hear a series that's all about British people and British culture taking place in Britain speaking unfiltered Japanese to eachother. Out of curiosity, how many languages do you speak? There were a few grammatical errors in your post, but I'm impressed with your knowledge. Side note: If you want to post a link, use the following code, with []'s instead of {}'s. {url=LINK}TEXT{/url} |
More topics from this board
» What is a dub song from a children’s anime dub that you love the most?funtime43_tr - Mar 9 |
0 |
by funtime43_tr
»»
Mar 9, 9:42 AM |
|
» English dub fan, what do you think of these Japanese dubs of American cartoons?mdo7 - Aug 31, 2020 |
2 |
by mdo7
»»
Nov 14, 2023 5:43 PM |
|
» What are your Top 5-10 Favorite English Dubs? ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )KidRyan - Mar 14, 2009 |
261 |
by Joca_skljoca024
»»
Oct 13, 2023 1:55 AM |
|
» In Defense of 4kids/New York voice actors.funtime43_tr - Oct 25, 2022 |
1 |
by SwatKat1990
»»
Jan 18, 2023 5:54 PM |
|
» Notable 2022 Anime that didn't get DubbedAan120898 - Dec 29, 2022 |
1 |
by MeanMrMusician
»»
Dec 30, 2022 1:58 AM |