PandoraHearts
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| THIS IS A MANGA ONLY DISCUSSION POST. DO NOT DISCUSS ANYTHING BEYOND THIS CHAPTER. ---------------------------------------- Gil learned that Vince doing these for Gil himself, and he's mad!! Leo vs. Oz continues. Oz hates what Leo said. When Leo stopped thinking about it, Jack attacked!! Break vs. Barma. Jack's memory when Gran and young Gil was there. Lacie?! She looks like Alice!! |
I ♥ Two Syaorans from Tsubasa RESERVoir CHRoNiCLE and TRC!!! |
| I have just one thing to say about this chapter - I hope Gil won't die... Okay, maybe two things - how could Jack do this to Glen?! T.T |
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| OMG Seriously this chapter had one of the biggest twists !! |
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| im speechless. in deep shock actually, since Jack was always my favorite character. i just died. *ressurrects* jeez...i guess ill stay with Glen now, because i also liked him, and now i like him more. or perhaps ill just keep supporting evil Jack (but im so not happy with this twist. im totally broken. it makes me wanna cry. the author really overdid it this time T_T) |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| Well, I thought Jack would turn out to be the bad guy somehow, so I'm not surprised about that. However, the way it played out is juts... Holy crap. O_O Wait wait wait, what's with Gil though? He has those Baskerville powers or...what? Because - "..that's right. I won't die from a wound like this Not at that time Or at that time Even when I was poisoned" Hmm? So Barma is the bad guy after all. Not surprised about that either. Hm.. Leo is right though. They're not actually friends. He was friends with Elliot, he never got too close to Leo anyway. Not like that's relevant, I just realised that I agree with Leo on that one. btw, he so lost it.. :/ Leo. Ugh, okay. I'm not too surprised about anything, but the way everything was revealed in a single, *long* chapter is still mind-blowing. I'm also kinda confused about Jack and everything, I need a good explanation of what exactly happened. Or, you know, just some sleep So.. Glen died and Jack was in the Abyss? I mean, he's still alive if he killed Glen, no? Okay, I should really go to bed now. |
deadoptimist said: Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes. |
| I feel violated. o.o Leo... Leo has Glen souls around him Leo is protected by Humpty Leo has the memory of seeing Lacie in an alley Leo is not Jack Leo MIGHT be Lacie I think we've all suspected there was something "off" about Jack. I don't know if Jack is "bad," though... everything's just reversed now we don't know what Jack wants any more than we knew what Glen wanted I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH THE OTHER FLASHBACKS <333 Vince confessing love to Gil >^.^< <333 Gil on top of Vince >^.^< <333 Gil taking hit for Vince >^.^< ...I always did think Gil's durable-ness was suspicious... >_>;; Not worried about his gunshot wound at all. He's a Baskerville, he'll be fine. Leo will also be fine from the wound he just got, as long as Oz can keep Jack from attacking him. Oz with Leo was great, and the Elliot flashback. <3 Who let Break out of his cage?! Stop fighting, dammit! If Barma actually wanted to kill Cheryl he would've cut her head off. . . . I have no idea what to make of any of this. I'll have to read the chapter again when it's scanlated... and then probably re-read the whole series... o.o |
Neiru2013Sep 19, 2011 12:10 AM
windeen-windy said: I'm also a bit confused, I didn't see much outright that said jack was the evil mastermind (Or whatever)... Exactly. There weren't any obvious clues. He always seemed nice and everything, and that was exactly what was strange. I mean, look at the other characters Neiru2012 said: Leo... Leo has Glen souls around him Leo is protected by Humpty Leo has the memory of seeing Lacie in an alley Leo is not Jack Leo MIGHT be Lacie asdfgh What seemed like crack is not so crack-y after all. o.o They also look a like. oo Neiru2012 said: <333 Vince confessing love to Gil >^.^< <333 Gil on top of Vince >^.^< <333 Gil taking hit for Vince >^.^< THIIIIIIS. Well, except for the first thing, that was too IC to make me jump around the room and stuff. Gil. Gil. Gil. Well, I used to strongly dislike him (STRONGLY), and I don't mind him that much after this. I mean, he saved Vincent asdfghjkl I have to like him now. He finally did something a brother would do. asdfghjk 70% of my interest in this manga would be lost if Vince died. I'd still keep reading, but...meh Neiru2012 said: ...I always did think Gil's durable-ness was suspicious... >_>;; Not worried about his gunshot wound at all. He's a Baskerville, he'll be fine. Leo will also be fine from the wound he just got, as long as Oz can keep Jack from attacking him. Yeah, like when he stopped Oz from killing Zai. Any normal person would die after that. And yeah, there's no way he'd die from that wound. Neiru2012 said: I have no idea what to make of any of this. I'll have to read the chapter again when it's scanlated... and then probably re-read the whole series... o.o This...idonteven |
deadoptimist said: Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes. |
GracefulDownfall said: windeen-windy said: I'm also a bit confused, I didn't see much outright that said jack was the evil mastermind (Or whatever)... Exactly. There weren't any obvious clues. He always seemed nice and everything, and that was exactly what was strange. I mean, look at the other characters Ahahahah, yes, "look at the other characters," indeed. But I've been suspecting Jack because he has been showing psychotic tendencies. This + next 2 pages comes to mind - Jack-Oz talking to himself and acting homicidal so that Alice had to stop him. Then Jack-Oz's destructive rampage at Yura's mansion here + next 5 pages and here. So yeah, I knew there was something "off" about Jack, I even anticipated that Glen was in the right, but I never imagined that everything I thought I knew was a lie. XD |
| Well i always knew Jack was hiding a secret but i didnt expect to be sooooo dark. I mean, i never could imagine he is the villain!!! IM HEART BROKEN! I DIDNT EVEN SLEPT THIS NIGHT. And now that the last seal was broken....Jack will possess Oz forever? because it was hinted that. (Glen´s decapitated head was creepy btw). so now Oz becomes Jack....oh F*** he is gonna be evil. and he controls b-rabbit. oh whyyyyy Jack, whyyyyyyyyyyy*tears* T_T Now that u guys mention, Lacie does look like Leo. but she also can be Oz mom since she has a bit of his eyes.... but then, her hair looks like Alice... anyway the only thing clear is that the flashback with Lacie that we thought it was Glen with her...after all it was Jack in his childhood, and god, he looked like a peasant. he must have been very poor and desperate as a child. And suspicious is WTH was Lacie doing in such a dirty street, talking to little Jack? Maybe she is also EVIL. but then...we finally know the reason why the Abyss wanted to find Jack, and why in first chapter of PH, Alice tried to kill Oz saying "ill never forgive you!no matter where you hide, i will find you! never forget". |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
Neiru2012 said: But I've been suspecting Jack because he has been showing psychotic tendencies. This + next 2 pages comes to mind - Jack-Oz talking to himself and acting homicidal so that Alice had to stop him. Then Jack-Oz's destructive rampage at Yura's mansion here + next 5 pages and here. I sort of blamed the first thing on Oz, though I find it surprising.. *feeling so smart right now* Oh yes, that in Yura's mansion. It really surprised me and I had no idea what to make out of it. Now it makes so much more sense. Damn, it was actually quite simple and I was making it overly complicated in my head *headwall* Orulyon said: we finally know the reason why the Abyss wanted to find Jack, and why in first chapter of PH, Alice tried to kill Oz saying "ill never forgive you!no matter where you hide, i will find you! never forget". OHMYGOD this. This. I can't believe I forgot about that. I've been discussing those lines with a friend of mine for ages. Ages. Then everything that happened lately made me forget. So wait, Jack did kill Alice? Orulyon said: Now that u guys mention, Lacie does look like Leo. but she also can be Oz mom since she has a bit of his eyes.... but then, her hair looks like Alice... I don't think she's his mom... |
deadoptimist said: Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes. |
| Okay, as much as everyone has fantastic points, I just want to bring up something that seems to be overlooked. (I'll move on after.) Alice is "transparent." It happened when Oz's seal turned to 180 degrees, and was using her power. Last time his eyes even changed colour, so does this mean that eventually Oz will become a chain through Alice or at least like, Alice will be completely gone when Oz gets dragged into the Abyss (if it ever gets that far...) I think we'll have to wait a couple more chapters to really understand this. Also guys, Leo. </3 Jack said he was alive but, he then was all "GLEN HAS HUGE POWER IT'S AN OBSTACLE." So, is he going to die? It seems he wouldn't mind (judging on that one page where it saids “It’s just that you want to be destroyed yourself.” ) My heart hurts. His face. HIS. FACE. And then the tears, and the Elliot flashback, so much love for that. Oh and Oz, I think I love you more now too. THANK YOU FOR FINALLY CRYING. Now about Jack, I was also expecting him to be revealed as something he isn't, but I don't think he is all of a sudden the "bad guy." I mean come on guy, stop freaking out over that. When we see the page where Gilbert is slashed by Jack, do you not notice his tears? Jun has only given us a morsel of this story. Yes, Jack may very well be a deranged, psychopathic lunatic, but he has good incentive for what he's doing (or so he thinks.) If anything, what I understand is that "evil" is only the subjective. This is what Pandora Hearts will probably teach us. Remember Oz's whole, "There is no good or evil, there is only our will." I personally don't fully agree, but I'll cling to it, being 2 chapters away from the "collapse," it probably applies. Of course, the fact that it seems Glen was used to seal Jack is... suspicious. Ahh I really just don't even. Oh poor Gilbert now, huh. He's just grasping what remains of his sanity. All his devotion, all his cause and motivation was to--- the wrong loyalties? But no. How many times has Oz stressed, "I am not Jack. I am Oz."? Many. So, I can't say I can predict what he will do, because really, though he is his own person, Jack is still prevalent. But either way, Gilbert will get through this. On what side though? I honestly don't know. On one hand, I want to see him working with Vincent for once, but then he still has Oz, and not only that but, it could lead him to find out Vincent's goal... oh gosh. Okay Gilbert, go to the Baskervilles ASAP and talk some sense into your bro. Like, just do it. Bitch slap him for all it takes I don't care. If Vincent ends up making everything completely upside-down or just messes things up (like Kevin/Break did) then I'll probably rip my hair out. THERE'S SO MUCH TO PROCESS THAT I CAN'T. Don't die, Vincent. We need you in the story. I think I'll reread the last 10 chapters... or maybe just the whole thing. Oh and- 1 key, 3 more to go. This is why I still feel safe that the story isn't ending anytime soon. (In like, 1 1/2 years maybe.) |
whenpigsflyOct 8, 2012 5:50 PM
whenpigsfly said: When we see the page where Gilbert is slashed by Jack, do you not notice his tears? I just came here to mention this. Thanks for pointing it out. *nods* Yeah. Nothing's ever black and white. It's just that some of us have to freak out about things for a certain period of time before calming down. x) whenpigsfly said: Alice is "transparent." Oh. Yeah.... What?! Oo - I don't think that Vincent will die. Not yet, at the very least. Okay, I can't possibly think right now since my mind is all WWI at the moment. I just love this fandom because people actually think about what's happening. I love you, everyone. *randomly emotional* Edit: I thought I mentioned this earlier but I obviously didn't - Um, are Vincent's memories also fake then? Cause if they're not Jack can't be that bad. I don't think his memories are fake though. Because of what he said - "If your memories returned this would no longer be a place for you. Whether you wanted it or not, you would be aware of your responsibilities. Everything about your Master.." It kind of implies that Gil has nothing to do with the Vessalius household. Or something. Okay, I'm really tired, but I just wanted to dump that here, even though everyone probably already thought about it, and just forgot to mention or something. |
kawaiiyurisSep 18, 2011 2:26 PM
deadoptimist said: Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes. |
| There seems to be a major conspiracy going on if all the history books have Jack as the hero of all this. Barma house are the historians and the record keepers. They were the ones who created the seals, except Jack had them use Glen's body. Always did think it was odd for Jack to just give up his own body like that, lol (especially to seal GLEN, how would that even work? XD). This is further reinforced by Miranda's presence at the Tragedy, Arthur as the eyewitness, and Rufus' actions now. I do think Rufus is working for the greater good, and possibly trying to untangle the conspiracy, but I think the Barma house is largely responsible for 100 years of misinformation... and possibly helped Jack brainwash Gil, Vince, and etc with different memories. ...Oh but, when would they have time to tinker with their memories? Both Gil and Vince got sucked into the Abyss during the Tragedy, and Gil still thought of Glen as his master during that ordeal. However, I also think that Gil might've become a Baskerville from the ceremony Glen performed on him that Vince was trying to interrupt. Something happened during some Glen-related ceremony, since Raven said that's when Gil first tried to contract with him. I don't think we have anything close to the full story yet. Maybe Glen brainwashed Gil? Okay, just never mind, I have no idea. XD EDIT: WAIT, possible explanation incoming!! All the flashbacks of Gil and Vince being Jack's servants are true, no brainwashing necessary (except for the hooded lady that brainwashed Gil, who knows when/why). But when Glen needed a new body, he claimed Gil. "Ownership" of Gil therefore transferred to Glen,* so that's why during Tragedy Gil called Glen "Master" (and why Glen was concerned about him). When Gil ran in between Jack and Glen, he wasn't in his typical single-minded mode of "MUST PROTECT MASTER." He was only confused, asking "why are they fighting??" He liked both of them, thought it was strange for them to be at odds, and just wanted to break up the fight. Gil was very surprised that Jack slashed him; he didn't see either one of them as his enemy. What was Glen's role during tragedy? Glen had explained that he simply wants to restore the Abyss back to the harmonious Golden World that it was. But, to do this, he had to sacrifice a lot of people. He was the one who ordered the Baskervilles to massacre the people at the mansion. This is backed up by the Baskervilles' memories of massacring the people. What was Jack's role during tragedy? Jack had been very sad about Lacie, but it seems like he got over it, for the most part, during the flashbacks we've seen of him with Glen. However, he developed a relationship with Alice, Lacie's anagram and lookalike - possibly daughter or sister. He was content with this. When Glen told Jack about his plans, Jack's reaction was "...want to use Alice?!" Thus displaying his consistent pattern of being overprotective of Alice. His reason for clashing with Glen, and whoever he may have killed during the Tragedy, would have been with the motive to protect Alice. Lacie was sacrificed to the Abyss. As emissaries of the Abyss, the Baskervilles may have been the ones to carry that out. Though Jack accepted this with time, when he saw Glen about to do it again to Alice, he couldn't let that happen and lost it. Overwhelmed by his obsession with Lacie/Alice, Jack slashing Gil could've been an extension of the betrayal and/or bitterness he was feeling about Glen taking from him everything he cared about... Lacie, his servant, and now Alice. He did show remorse for slashing Gil (Jack's sword is bloody here, consistent with him slashing Gil), and was crying the whole time, too. I don't think Vince had any idea that Jack snapped or that Jack slashed Gil, which is why Vince still thinks/speaks highly of Jack. Vince did see Jack badly wounded after his fight with Glen, but he's never blamed Glen (or he wouldn't have allied with Baskervilles and Gleo), he thinks "everyone became weird because of Alice." *This is probably when Gil was made a Baskerville, in preparation for becoming Glen's vessel. It might actually explain a line Alice said to Vince which has been bothering me for ages: "I heard your brother [will be] killed by Glen!" + next page. Maybe that's how you can create an immortal like a Baskerville aside from the "lights" choosing you. Maybe the "lights" choose you at the brink of death, actually... that's what happened to Lily. Except... Gil is able to age, but the other Baskervilles don't age. *scratches head* Then again, Gil wasn't just picked to be a Baskerville, he was picked to be Glen's new vessel. I doubt that Glen intended to stay little Gil his whole life, so maybe the Glens are special and do age... or maybe Vince interrupted something... okay, I give up. GracefulDownfall said: Neiru2012 said: Leo... Leo has Glen souls around him Leo is protected by Humpty Leo has the memory of seeing Lacie in an alley Leo is not Jack Leo MIGHT be Lacie asdfgh What seemed like crack is not so crack-y after all. o.o They also look a like. oo Oh, imma have to retract that statement. I just went back to that scene (here + 4 pages) and it was Jack remembering Lacie, not Leo. D'oh! Leo was probably *sigh*ing because the melody reminded him of Elliot. So yeah, Leo is still Glen. Makes me wonder why Glen wrote the Lacie melody, though, if it was a Jack/Lacie thing. |
Neiru2013Sep 23, 2011 5:44 PM
Neiru2012 said: Oh, imma have to retract that statement. I just went back to that scene (here + 4 pages) and it was Jack remembering Lacie, not Leo. D'oh! Leo was probably *sigh*ing because the melody reminded him of Elliot. So yeah, Leo is still Glen. Makes me wonder why Glen wrote the Lacie melody, though, if it was a Jack/Lacie thing. Well, im thinking that Lacie actually does resemble a bit of...Glen. She might be his sister. She was the one who introduced Glen and Jack for sure, and that would make her an important person to both Glen and Jack. what i think its weird is Lacie being with a summer dress in an snowy alley talking to Jack. crazy Theory cominggggggggggg: It hints that she might not be a common person. Maybe there is a possibility of her being...a chain? |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| @Neiru2012 - That does make sense. However, if that's how everything happened, why would Jack want to change the story? If Glen wanted to kill the whole city it would be reasonable to stop him (even if Jack's motive was just protecting Alice, he would be a hero in the eyes of the world). So then why would they have to lie about using Glen's body? They could have just said they cut Glen up. It would make sense - he went crazy, Jack killed him, then they used his body parts to seal him. It's a disturbing idea, but it's weird either way so... Yeah, I also found it weird how they used Jack's nody to seal Glen (wth) So there has to be more to it. Maybe I'm just complicating again, but I really don't think it's that simple. Um, but they never finished the ceremony of turning him into a Baskerville, no? Oo So he can survive what other people can't, but he still ages. Or maybe I'm just remembering things I've never read. |
deadoptimist said: Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes. |
| I never expect to be right when making theories like this. I just think it'd be a waste if many of the flashbacks we have are fake, and so I came up with a possibility that keeps them real while accounting for the current development. I am not even outright saying that Glen hasn't been Gil's Master all along. The memories we have could be interpreted as consistent with either scenario, without the need for brainwashing (there'd be no time to brainwash them anyway, aside from hooded lady, since both Gil and Vince fell into the Abyss during the Tragedy with their memory intact). But, really, all we've learned in this chapter is that Gil called Glen "Master" at 2 points in time and that Jack is (also?) obsessed with Lacie. We don't know what Jack did yet, and so far there's no concrete reason to doubt that Glen gave the order to massacre the mansion.* I'm sure that Jack did something terribly misguided (I've always thought of Glen as the wiser and long-sighted of the two), but I think it's too early to jump on his intentions and accuse him of being a complete selfish bastard just yet, even if the accusation may prove to be true as the story develops. He feels remorse about slashing Gil and about killing Glen, and somebody who has such pain can't be typecast. I think the new developments have the potential to make Jack an infinitely more interesting, complicated, and sympathetic character - if done right, which I trust Jun to do. Personally, I'd be very disappointed if anyone's memories were tampered with against their will. Not because it would reflect badly on Jack, but because it would taint the sanctity of PH as an exploration of how people mess up themselves. I've always seen PH as a brilliant cautionary tale about half-remembered truths and the dangers of misinterpreting them. An external force replacing memories would greatly undermine that theme. Gil was brainwashed to protect his Master, but that only affected behavior, not his memories (as far as we know)... I hope behavior is the extent of any brainwashing that may have taken place. *Aside from the suddenness of it and the fact that Glen's back was turned and he was blacked out. But Glen was never properly shown at that point in the series, and if he didn't give the order, he could've told the Baskervilles to stop as soon as he saw what they were doing... unless he was busy with Jack. Either way, the double border on the text bubble means that whoever said it was a Baskerville, a chain, or otherwise linked to the Abyss. Regarding Jack Slashing Gil Regarding Jack/Oz, Memory, and Brainwashing Maybes & Questions |
Neiru2013Sep 23, 2011 2:11 PM
| Oh. wow. wow. wow. I'll accept anything EXCEPT Gil dying (for good). But oh man. This is interesting. |
| WHAT. JACK IS ACTUALLY THE BAD GUY? EVERYTHING I BELIEVED IN IS A LIEEE And lol, makes so much more sense that Gil was a Baskerville. No wonder the guy could took to many fatal hits. |
Clarsiso said: WHAT. JACK IS ACTUALLY THE BAD GUY? EVERYTHING I BELIEVED IN IS A LIEEE And lol, makes so much more sense that Gil was a Baskerville. No wonder the guy could took to many fatal hits. I know. I am surprised that Jack is evil, however I enjoy the turn of events. |
 Where there is no imagination there is no horror. || Arthur Conan Doyle || Happy Halloween! |
| This manga confuses me so much, but I don't have the time to reread from square one, let alone try to interpret it. You guys on the forums are life savers. |
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| MINDF*CK. JACK = EVIL GUY IS--- dsvcgkwqheochfniewghimjcweixhugcuwehwcewl gaaaaaaaah. Poor Oz. :( Hope Reo and Gil won't die. |
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| So, after reading the chapter... And reading it again... And again... Staring at the computer screen for 1/2 hour... And taking a shower, I've actually managed to sum up some thoughts. Are you f***ing kidding me?! And I really don't like using swear words, but this calls for it! I know that there is such a thing as 'huge plot twist' and 'troll', but that was Humpty Dumpty Had a Great Fall. What the hell do I call this?!?! I knew the title was "Collapse" and I figured it would be the breakdown of some character. Not a third of the story as we know it more or less obliterated and the remaining 2/3rds radically warped, damn you Jun! Oh fine. I'm exaggerating, but you all know how little that is far from the truth... For now (Please tell me its just paranoia, there's no way my mind could get more screwed over from here.... RIGHT?! ) *is seconds away from crying in corner* Just.... Wtf.... Getting thoughts is one thing, putting them in a coherent order is another (impossible) altogether. Soooo... I know that it's a little stupid to paint Jack as a wicked villain (Although at one point in my rereadings I admit to thinking I'd rather like to kill him...), but really what he did to Leo and his psycho-ness (Why am I complaining about that? It's entirely invalid. Who in PH isn't?! Well, Sharon.... right?! Paranoia will be the death of me...) could have made him entirely unsympathetic as far as I'm concerned. But -http://www.mangareader.net/pandora-hearts/65/7070 - I have a heart. Fine! A fangirl's heart, so sue me! By the way, the number of utterly wretched, heartbroken expressions in this chapter is staggering. *resumes to order thoughts* *At a snail pace* I was tired. Thanks, Jun... Oh! Oz! Thank you, child for doing... What I really wanted you to do two chapters ago (aka punch Leo... Although he really looked like he needed a hug. innerFangirl, please shut up?) It took you a while (not really) but you did it, so, thanks, that actually gave me a smile in this... this... *words fail* Anyways! At the same time, I'm a little underwhelmed at how all that went down (until... um... that , which most assuredly elicited a different reaction). To be honest it kinda makes the last few chapters seem pointlessly overblown. (I'm a fool. I'll trust you, Jun, to make use of it later and me pounding my head on a wall for ever thinking that in the first place). Oh, and by the way, don't kill Leo. Please, please don't kill Leo. Don't make my assumption that Leo would just be a relatively unimportant side character that might've some day had a rather relevent contribution to a minor (as in not the overarching) plot true. I had so much fun when you tore that assumption into shreds and threw them back at my face! Oh! Eureka! One thing - one?!?! If it was just ONE then this would all be very boring, I should think, oh no, Jun is far, far kinder then to have ONE - another thing that has been bothering me to no end was that Jack didn't want to tell the Baskervilles where Glen was to 'protect his (Glen's) name/honor'. I'm not entirely sure how honor plays into (not denying that it does, mind you) having one's body cut into a seal, but regardless telling that to the Baskervilles seems like a bad idea. Although I have to say I never thought anything strange about Jack using his body to seal Glen. What I did think was strange was that Glen's soul was supposedly sealed and yet Glen still appeared to Leo when Elliot became a contractor. My brain is going to explode . So what does that say about Jack? Seriously, just what is with that guy's soul? "Soul fragments in Alice's memory"? (Was that just a lie?) Reincarnated in Oz? (Xerxes Break has an uncanny knack of being right, as I believe was previously mentioned. I didn't nitpick at the term 'hero' being 'lame'; rather it was 'reincarnation', especially seeing as Oz is from 10 years earlier (Time in PH is really starting to piss me off. No matter when, "The Tragedy of Sablier" seems to always be 100 years ago... It doesn't make sense... It's bothering me... What is Jun up to...?! ) Sealed by Glen?!! There's more I could say on this, I know there is, but, for now... Oh Rufus. You did not... you did not just... .... HAhahahaha! Okay, regardless, Rufus let Cheryl live/didn't attack her vital organs. "That sentimentality of yours must be a weakness", eh, Ru-kun...? The irony there made my day... Well, Oz did punch Leo, and that gives it a run for its money, but... Jaaack. "Lacie was an extremely important person to Glen... She would always happily hum this tune..." (Eh, that was from memory and I'm too lazy to look it up, so sorry i fit's a tad off). So, Blatant lies, or omission of information (Like Vincent. "A psychopath who likes to behead people... ...A wretch that I'll kill one of these days"... And countless others, but looking back and catching those omissions is rather satisfying)? Also... It makes more sense that, if Jack was the one psycho for Lacie, Glen ended up sacrificing her to the Abyss (ie, more sense then if Glen was the one psycho... And even if he's not 'psycho' I'm still rather inclined to believe that he cares for her) You know, I was thinking earlier (ie, before the entire order of the story collapsed and, and and...) that it might've been interesting if Lacie turned out to be a manipulative, villainous bitch. (though I really didn't think it would happen). But I guess I'll take this with Jack. Except 'villain' might have to be reserved for Duke Nightray and Isla Yura. Now, to wonder - Does it or does it not also extend to Zai Vessalius? I've heard suspicions about Jack before, and every now and then there were tidbits that supported it (A rather latant one was a 'wtf' at rereading Jack's speech to Pandora. Glen would return and bring another tragedy? Alright, it's not that farfetched, but still, to accuse the Leo as he was then to do that was rather strange), but I'd end up remembering Oz feeling Jack's emotions at the end of the Latowidge arc and that seemed genuine, and it put an end to the debate in my mind. Foolish! Characters are all rather psycho, and just because he had genuine feelings about not wanting to kill Glen shouldn't mean he didn't warrant suspicion.... *returns to thinking* Oh! Understanding! Sort of... Gil. I suppose it would make sense if he was also sold to the freak show along with Vincent, given his durability, which probably freaked their mother out. So that's one mystery solved... I... Think...? Also, I might've gotten entirely lost in this ridiculous chain of events (um... It wouldn't happen to be the case that the tragedy of sablier is split into two time lines, would it? That's ridiculous and nonsensical, right? Or would it be better if I said it's too obvious (except it really does lean towards the ridiculous side...) but what exactly is Vincent trying to change by erasing his existance? Even if the gates weren't opened.... Um, no, my brain is going to explode, I'll consider it more some other time. |
RaemyaSep 23, 2011 10:01 PM
| OMG!!! I can't believe this chapter~ indeed wow and wow! I can't believe Jack is evil!! Then who wrote the song lacie...And she looks really like Alice! What will happen to Oz now! Who is the baskerville head then? I can't wait for the next chapter!! |
Kalamity-kun said: I feel exactly the same....This manga confuses me so much, but I don't have the time to reread from square one, let alone try to interpret it. You guys on the forums are life savers. Maybe cuz I've never been into this manga (except the anime), every chapter seems so weird, slow, and confusing. The only thing I understood from this chapter is that apparently Jack is now the bad guy o_O Oh well whatever, I've come this far, I want to see it end....hopefully sooner rather than later. |
| Well I, for one, am ecstatic. I feel like my heart was ripped out, torn to pieces, and then put back together stronger and better than before. I love you, Jack!! *_* For vastly different reasons now, but I still love you. :P As far as I can tell, nothing has changed at all, and no part of the story has been rendered invalid. It's just weaving an ever-more intricate and beautiful tapestry of vibrant colors as opposed to black and white. I am having a wonderful time going back through the series with this new layer of knowledge and being in awe of how it all fits together. ^_^ |
| ........ SO. MUCH. MINDFUCK. AGH. So I'm guessing that means Jack befriended Alice because she looked like Lacie or something.. still can't believe he's been lying for the entire story though. A bit confused about what went down with Gil's memories too, but I'll have to wait for the next chapter for that to be explained I guess. @_@; |
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| Jack's still sorta hot. GIILLLLLLLLLLLL. ^that about sums it up. |
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Neiru2012 said: Well I, for one, am very happy. I feel like my heart was ripped out, torn to pieces, and then put back together stronger and better than before. I love you, Jack!! *_* For vastly different reasons now, but I still love you. :P As far as I can tell, nothing has changed at all, and no part of the story has been rendered invalid. It's just weaving an ever-more intricate and beautiful tapestry of vibrant colors as opposed to black and white. I am having a wonderful time going back through the series with this new layer of knowledge and being in awe of how it all fits together. ^_^ Aha...ha...ha... Glad to see your enjoying yourself, Neiru. I'd agree it's all rather splendid, but I'm too much in shock. Ehh, maybe this manga would be better if I read it all at once instead of waiting a month, theorizing, waiting another month, theorizing, waiting another month and having brain blown to itty bitty teensy bits. Okay, exaggeration... But not much. |
| Oh I've been theorizing like crazy!! Came up with a lot of stuff. ^_^ But, hey, I was in shock too. I just had a few more days to process it since I read it back when the LQ raws and text translation came out. |
| Ah, that would explain it... I think? I read it a few hours ago. Or I think it was two hours ago. I've never been good at keeping track of time. But- I'll stop rambling now. Oh Ph. The sleep I sacrifice on your account. Is not healthy. But its pointless to go to bed now (at 1 am). Ten minutes later I'll be back up and on this computer.... Going mad... Eh, I didn't stop rambling... ...Sorry. |
| jesus christ i've been trolled in mangas before but THIS!!! My entrie view of Pandora Heart's story has just been shaken by the roots and given a complete 180 turn...Jack was the villain? Something doesnt add up here! but still H O L Y S H I T |
| No, Jack is not the villain. But he's not a perfectly flawless angel either. He is simply a human, with human weaknesses, just as he always said (unless he got turned into a chain or something, but you know what I mean :P). |
game8910 said: H O L Y S H I T |
iciclepopSep 23, 2011 11:32 PM
| ok. wow. What a twist Jack is the bad guy?! Did not see that coming! And what of Gil? Does he have like some special powers or something?! And poor Glen; why Jack, why?! Anyway, definitely looking forward to the next chapter, hopefully it'll explain things more |
| "Do you have any idea how stupid we are? Don't underestimate us!" -Gintama |
| <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> <reads a few pages> <head explodes> |
| WHAT DID I JUST READ!!!??? |
| Sorry for my English... ^^ |
iciclepop said: game8910 said: H O L Y S H I T THIS |
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| haha shit hit the fan and i freaking love it. |
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| I was thinking what if Alice (B.Rabbit) is just another fragment of the lost memories...she was transperant for a moment and Oz saw in Cheshires dimension Alices corpse...but that may not be Alice at all i mean Lacie looked hell like Alice or maybe Jack faked the memory And first before reading the chapter i read all sort of comments on how evil is Jack lol i expected something way more bizzare he was crying when stabbing Gill for all we know...wait we dont know anything!Jack may have some pretty good reason to act like that same goes for Barma as they stated that Sharons Gramma wasnt hurt in a vital spot lets assume for a while that Barma did it on purpose maybe he is trying to protect her or maybe he is just a psycho...man i love Mochizuki Jin cant wait for the next chapter |
| WTF did just happen? Jack was the enemy all along? Glen was the good guy? Just wtf. In one chapter everything turned over. So Baskervilles are the good ones? And what the hell! Now Lacie is added to the mystery called Alice and Abyss T.T WHY JACKKKKKKKK T^T I liked you T^T Why were you the bad guy T^T |
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| More on the Barmas, plus Jack's Power I'm actually starting to think that maybe both Jack and Glen were set up by the Barmas. Jack was certainly not happy about what went down at Sablier, and now his soul is in pieces... why? Before I had assumed it was because he used his own body to seal Glen, and the magical dismemberment of his body as part of a spell also dismembered his soul. But now we know that's not true. The Barmas were the ones casting the sealing spells, they were the ones who got Vince to open the Abyss gate, and it's likely they were the ones who brainwashed Gil's behavior, so maybe they screwed Jack over too. Actually, the creepiest part of chapter 65 for me is this page, where Oz is unconscious in the "Jack dimension." My initial reaction was "oh shit, Leo!" quickly followed by "nevermind, Jack's distracted lulz." But why is Oz unconscious? In the past he was sometimes huddling scared, sometimes just sitting around helpless, but now he's totally out. Jack has explained before that he can't possess Oz for long "in this state," but that was many many chapters ago. Back when I thought Jack's body was used to seal away Glen's soul, I thought that Jack's body parts getting unsealed also strengthened the manifestation of Jack's soul. It still seems like Jack is growing stronger as more of the seals are shattered, but now I have no direct explanation for it... unless, of course, the sorcerers used Glen's body to seal Jack's soul instead... but that would contradict the fact that Jack cooperated with them. Anyway, assuming Jack's soul is growing stronger, he may be able to take over Oz for longer periods of time, and this might be more draining on Oz's soul while in the "Jack dimension." That's the more, err, quasi-benign explanation for why Oz is knocked out right now. >_>; There is another explanation for why Jack is growing stronger. Earlier he explained that "I am a fragment. A remnant which resides within Alice's memories. A fragment of Jack Vessalius' soul." Indeed, Oz only started sensing Jack when they recovered Alice's first memory. By contracting with Black Rabbit, Oz has an intimate link with Alice, so maybe whatever she gains, he also gains, and so the pieces of Jack are coming together as her memories return. However, Jack seems to be very tied to the Black Rabbit (he appears most frequently when Oz uses Black Rabbit power, he gains more control, and I'd even say that Oz's homicidal tendencies in that state is Jack's yandere influence), yet Black Rabbit might not be entirely tied to Alice. Oz being able to use B-Rabbit power independently from her suggests they might be detachable, even separate. And now that the B-Rabbit seal is halfway, Lacie is appearing to Jack. Hmm... Raemya said: Jaaack. "Lacie was an extremely important person to Glen... She would always happily hum this tune..." (Eh, that was from memory and I'm too lazy to look it up, so sorry i fit's a tad off). So, Blatant lies, or omission of information Yes, "Lacie was an extremely important person to Glen." What makes you think that's a lie? Glen even wrote the Lacie melody. Why couldn't both Glen and Jack love Lacie? I don't know if they both loved her the same way, but everything is consistent with them both caring deeply about her. With that in mind, check this out: There's a couple of very interesting things about that picture which were pointed out to me. First of all, notice the silhouettes of Gil and Vince on the bottom: Gil on Glen's side and Vince on Jack's. This is the September 2011 calendar picture, and it is in this month's chapter that we found out that Gil probably served Glen. D: What uncanny timing Jun-sama has!! Second of all, Jack is holding a yellow rose. This is not the first time we've seen Jack with a yellow rose. Now, Jun loves her Victorian flower symbolism, and especially roses (see Crimson Shell). The Victorian symbolism for yellow roses is "jealousy." I've always assumed that the woman between Jack and Glen here was Alice, but now I think she is Lacie. Raemya said: it might've been interesting if Lacie turned out to be a manipulative, villainous bitch. I actually just wrote a whole mini-essay related to this. Blame for everything has gone from Glen, to Jack, to maybe the Barmas, but I think ultimately it'll fall on Lacie and/or Alice. I don't think anyone should be called a villain, though. I'm sure everyone had good reasons. |
Neiru2013Sep 24, 2011 2:27 PM
| Im really confused at one time in the manga they show Glen really infatuated with Lacie and now they show Jack as being the one who is infatuated with Lacie.This made me think who is really Jack and Who is Glen.Somehow this smile seems more like Glens.This led me to think that Jack in Oz is actually Glen or Glen in the past is actually Jack but there are so many contradictions that i cannot get to the core of this v.v |
What amazes me is everyone accusing Jun of being a troll, KNOWING that she's been trolling forever, and STILL falling hard for it. I believe this may be appropriate: /she's still trolling, y'know... |
| I have a theory. O_o If Jack is indeed the "evil one" in the tragedy of Sablier, and Glen is actually the "hero", and Jack is in Oz's body (or something like that). Could Oz's father actually know about this and that's the reason why he threw him into the abyss? (and the cooperated with the Baskervilles). Lotti said once that Alyss is after Jack who's inside Oz, but the recent chapters tell otherwise... O_o OMG I'm so confused ;_; |
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Talu said: Lotti said once that Alyss is after Jack who's inside Oz, but the recent chapters tell otherwise... O_o Pretty sure Alyss is still after Jack. She made that clear in the beginning. What in the recent chapters makes you think otherwise? |
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