| Just asking to see if anyone else was receiving that strong vibe that the series seemed to be putting out since there were hints and echoes of it early on, but the latest episode which aired, episode four, seemed to be the most overt and blatant instance of that type of message seeming to be put forward as a core theme of the show. By way of his (William's) rejection of the god "Stagnate" representing stagnation and freezing of time/aging, and full-throttle, no reservations and undaunted embrace of the god "Gracefeel" who represents submission to biological constraints of life and movement and participation in it. It seemed to be utilizing the gods and the contrasting values they represent and powers or forces at their command to make social commentary condemning this segment of Japanese society and all who subscribe to this or any similar lifestyle. Did anyone else feel like it was more aggressive and overt this episode and is there a social and political reason behind why this is incorporated as such a central pillar of the series' thematics? The message seemed to be that it would be better to die as long as you were working, fighting, reproducing, etc. instead of choosing to opt out of the game of standard/public life and just "existing" in social isolation which to some people would represent a worse form of living death. |
WatchTillTandavaOct 30, 2021 8:45 PM
| Huh? I think you are overanalyzing things and my answer would be no. |
| It's not that I dislike this genre but... to add unnecessary fan services to/in/for heroines and ultimately destroys her character and personality; their purity tarnished because of it, is the only thing I hope to not happen to them. For that sole purity is my fan service. |
astralkill00 said: Huh? I think you are overanalyzing things and my answer would be no. Overanalyzing how? My reaction to what was presented was pretty immediate, it didn't take me any substantial length of time at all to react in such a way or arrive at said train of thought, nor to author the post (my OP). It just seemed very obvious and blatant (somewhat hamfisted and direct). epyon4light said: I didn't feel like that's the message I got from it. Alright, but by contrast, what message did you take away from it then? Does it contradict what I said it seems like they were trying to convey to me or just add on to it or differ slightly? Gagarin said: I don't see the problem with that message. I would say that it is coming from good position rather than anti-smh. I wasn't passing a value judgment on whether the message is good or bad. Like any message in any series or work of art ever, just like any political or philosophical idea in the real world, it's completely and wholly subjective so there's no universal consensus or agreement, nor will there ever be an end to that debate over what constitutes a "good" or "bad" message. It's kind of irrelevant whether I agree or disagree with it or whether you agree or disagree with it. The intention behind my OP is just to ask if others felt that messaging come across very strongly and explicitly, regardless of whether anyone agrees with it or not. |
WatchTillTandavaOct 30, 2021 10:34 PM
WatchTillTandava said: My mans, you are WAY overthinking this anime.astralkill00 said: Huh? I think you are overanalyzing things and my answer would be no. Overanalyzing how? My reaction to what was presented was pretty immediate, it didn't take me any substantial length of time at all to react in such a way or arrive at said train of thought, nor to author the post (my OP). It just seemed very obvious and blatant (somewhat hamfisted and direct). epyon4light said: I didn't feel like that's the message I got from it. Alright, but by contrast, what message did you take away from it then? Does it contradict what I said it seems like they were trying to convey to me or just add on to it or differ slightly? Gagarin said: I don't see the problem with that message. I would say that it is coming from good position rather than anti-smh. I wasn't passing a value judgment on whether the message is good or bad. Like any message in any series or work of art ever, just like any political or philosophical idea in the real world, it's completely and wholly subjective so there's no universal consensus or agreement, nor will there ever be an end to that debate over what constitutes a "good" or "bad" message. It's kind of irrelevant whether I agree or disagree with it or whether you agree or disagree with it. The intention behind my OP is just to ask if others felt that messaging come across very strongly and explicitly, regardless of whether anyone agrees with it or not. It’s just a dude who was disgusted with himself in his previous life attempting to live a better one this time. He also knows how his “family” feels about their own decision to become undead. There’s literally no way he’d have ever done anything but reject Stagnate, and it wasn’t for some between-the-lines sublimenal message attacking NEETs. |
TheWeebReport said: My mans, you are WAY overthinking this anime. It’s just a dude who was disgusted with himself in his previous life attempting to live a better one this time. He also knows how his “family” feels about their own decision to become undead. There’s literally no way he’d have ever done anything but reject Stagnate, and it wasn’t for some between-the-lines sublimenal message attacking NEETs. Even if I'm "overthinking" it, I can't help it, nor do I want to - That's just how I think. As I said in an earlier post, it isn't like I spent 12 hours lost in deep contemplative thought in a mountain retreat stewing on this and preparing an elaborate in-depth dissertation. It's a thought which jumped out to me as immediately obvious within seconds to minutes and took mere minutes to write the original post. The point is that it doesn't seem "subliminal" to me. It seems like it's very explicitly written into and spelled out in the dialogue in plain English (actually plain Japanese), unless the English subs are misrepresenting what the spoken dialogue actually says. |
needmorepower said: Dude you are overanalyzing and also you theory applies to only neets but there are other ways too that can lead to unfulfilling life drug addiction, insecurity, even working 9-6 jobs you don't like too, unfulfilled desires lead to unfulfilling life so your argument of as long you are productive is partially invalid. Watch relife anime if you want to understand more. Sure there are other ways you can lead an "unfulfilling life" (something which is truly only the sole purview of each individual to determine whether their own life is fulfilling to them or not, to what extent, and what fulfilling actually means to them), but I didn't focus on it because the series itself didn't focus on it. The main character isn't alluded to be a drug addict or working a 9 - 5/9-6 jobs too rigorously like an overworked salaryman. He was portrayed in all scenes depicting his past in the same stereotypical fashion many former lives of reincarnated seem to be depicted in a lot of isekais - mainly late teenage to 20-something male NEET/hikikomoris sitting in his room in front of a TV and computer, laying in bed, talking about disappointing his parents, not doing anything productive, being a shut-in in social isolation, and not living up to his parents'/random people's/society's expectations. Also, this is a bit beyond the scope of what I originally wrote in my opening post, but to me Gracefeel comes across as a tyrant. A tyrant trying to force someone - the character of William specifically here - but in reality, Man/mankind in general as a species, to remaining in the life-death rebirth cycle with their collective heads down, ignorant and asleep, compelling humans to bow down to material constraints (biology, and by extension, mortality) and take on a false consciousness that hails such as a great world and beautiful thing. Gracefeel feels like the Gnostic Demiurge and a false deity to me. Whereas Stagnate comes across as a liberator trying to impart knowledge and freedom, actively offering out a hand and trying to liberate mankind (for now the offer extends only to worthy or special individual elements of mankind identified by them) from the endless torture, suffering, and grief of the wheel of reincarnation. Stagnate offers humans moksha - a form of liberation from rebirth. This god seems portrayed to me on par with the snake in the Garden of Eden - as Lucifer, the Morning Star. Or a Melek Taus-esque figure. As a cosmic chance against all odds of humanity being able to escape the circumstances of their birth and limitations of physical organic bodies of flesh. That endless debate and divide over which is the superior path though will very likely drag out beyond any contemporary concerns over the subculture of NEET life. |
WatchTillTandavaOct 31, 2021 12:30 AM
| Ah yes. This anime really screams "DONT BE F'N NERD!" to me... |
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| I didn't get that feeling at all, more like wanting to be healthier mentally in his second life. But to begin with, seriously, it's not like Japan has ever taken positively to NEETs, otaku or mental illness so I'm not sure what your point would be even if there was an anti-NEET message, which I don't think there is. Also, did you just seriously call Gracefeel a tyrant? Any reasonable person would see that it's mentally, emotionally and humanely better to accept life and death rather than to strive for eternity. The only eternal thing is change itself, and I'd like to be pointed to at least one fantasy story in which great supernatural power doesn't come at a very bad price (i.e it's a bad idea to want too much, specifically too much power, and to take good deals without thinking about them). |
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PrincessPorcupin said: But to begin with, seriously, it's not like Japan has ever taken positively to NEETs, otaku or mental illness so I'm not sure what your point would be even if there was an anti-NEET message, which I don't think there is. With all due respect, this seems like a very typical answer I've noticed a lot on this forum. Not only when I ask a question, but in many other people's threads too "I don't see at all one trace or iota of what you're saying in any way, shape, or form whatsoever. You must be delusional or insane for even suggesting the mere hint of any sliver of a trace of such!....................But if there is, then it's a great thing and I agree with it wholeheartedly!" Like, okay? I can get that from the gist of your post, but I don't see the reason why people feel the need to adopt this overly militant and defensive posture, to try and deny the possibility of a discussion or attempt to "win" and end the discussion before it even begins. I don't now, have never, nor will ever speak in riddles and coded language. I don't hint or beat around the bush. My only point is exactly what I asked as written in the title and body of my post: That this seemed to be the message, it was strongly put across in the dialogue, and did anyone else get that sense? Asking that question. That is all. There is no point or hidden agenda behind my question other than that; exactly what I wrote and asked. PrincessPorcupin said: Also, did you just seriously call Gracefeel a tyrant? Any reasonable person would see that it's mentally, emotionally and humanely better to accept life and death rather than to strive for eternity. I would disagree and would surmise that we have very divergent and opposing definitions of what constitutes "humanely", humane, and humanity. There isn't a universal understanding or acceptance. It is up to humans themselves with their own brains, minds, and will to define. I am equally a human, just as you, so if I have a differing interpretation of the purpose of my life or our species it is equally as valid, because there is no known and proven higher authority above humans that has yet descended to authoritatively proclaim what is right, correct, and true. But this is entering into a discussion over irreconcilable and incompatible ideologies, which is not really the purpose of the original post. I didn't want or intend to push my own position on such an issue or ask whether anyone agrees or disagrees ideologically. Just if people picked up on the same message being communicated through the plot and writing of the series. You can acknowledge a thing exists without having the need to feel forced into a camp to agree or disagree with it. Observation is not endorsement or rejection (either of the message itself, or my assertion that such a message is there and exists). |
WatchTillTandavaOct 31, 2021 7:53 PM
WatchTillTandava said: PrincessPorcupin said: But to begin with, seriously, it's not like Japan has ever taken positively to NEETs, otaku or mental illness so I'm not sure what your point would be even if there was an anti-NEET message, which I don't think there is. With all due respect, this seems like a very typical answer I've noticed a lot on this forum. Not only when I ask a question, but in many other people's threads too "I don't see at all one trace or iota of what you're saying in any way, shape, or form whatsoever. You must be delusional or insane for even suggesting the mere hint of any sliver of a trace of such!....................But if there is, then it's a great thing and I agree with it wholeheartedly!" Like, okay? I can get that from the gist of your post, but I don't see the reason why people feel the need to adopt this overly militant and defensive posture, to try and deny the possibility of a discussion or attempt to "win" and end the discussion before it even begins. I don't now, have never, nor will ever speak in riddles and coded language. I don't hint or beat around the bush. My only point is exactly what I asked as written in the title and body of my post: That this seemed to be the message, it was strongly put across in the dialogue, and did anyone else get that sense? Asking that question. That is all. There is no point or hidden agenda behind my question other than that; exactly what I wrote and asked. PrincessPorcupin said: Also, did you just seriously call Gracefeel a tyrant? Any reasonable person would see that it's mentally, emotionally and humanely better to accept life and death rather than to strive for eternity. I would disagree and would surmise that we have very divergent and opposing definitions of what constitutes "humanely", humane, and humanity. There isn't a universal understanding or acceptance. It is up to humans themselves with their own brains, minds, and will to define. I am equally a human, just as you, so if I have a differing interpretation of the purpose of my life or our species it is equally as valid, because there is no known and proven higher authority above humans that has yet descended to authoritatively proclaim what is right, correct, and true. But this is entering into a discussion over irreconcilable and incompatible ideologies, which is not really the purpose of the original post. I didn't want or intend to push my own position on such an issue or ask whether anyone agrees or disagrees ideologically. Just if people picked up on the same message being communicated through the plot and writing of the series. You can acknowledge a thing exists without having the need to feel forced into a camp to agree or disagree with it. Observation is not endorsement or rejection (either of the message itself, or my assertion that such a message is there and exists). I'm not actually attacking you or anything like that. I just find it an odd position to take. Personally I don't think people who make anime would make a story with the basic gist of "hey, don't be a nerd." |
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| I think you are overanalyzing the show. In regards to your other comment about overanalyzing: (no offense) this does not mean your thought was very complex, nor was it something I suspect of taking hours to come up with. It is just too meta. The show will not get any deeper than "Regrets. Live your life to the fullest. I want to save people and be a faithful paladin" - which is totally fine, yet not something to convey any subtle message. |
| If so then why ? I admire ur analyze about see an anime spesifically but sometimes u kinda stupid tho due to u forgot crucial things. This is an adaptation anime not original anime so no way thr'rnt political, sociology, cultural, behind it. This is pure from author self without involved with government moreover social justice warriors About message behind his desicion with gracefel, is there wrong from it ? Which one better live like YOLO n try anything for ur life or skeptic to society, blame ur circumtances n dont do anything ? Anime is fun but u're man ur responsbility attach until end of ur life if u felt be judged by this anime dats fine for u it means u also feel wrong with urself but the next step only u can choose it which path will u take |
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PrincessPorcupin said: I'm not actually attacking you or anything like that. I just find it an odd position to take. Personally I don't think people who make anime would make a story with the basic gist of "hey, don't be a nerd." It's fine - I was more just venting frustration with a general trend I see in a lot of threads and discussions on MAL. I just want and wanted to be crystal clear on what my position is and what I was saying in the original post. As for the intentions of those writers and creators behind the series, have you noticed a recurring phenomenon with a lot of isekai where most characters are late teenage-aged to 20-something young adult males whose life is portrayed as disgraceful so they can find redemption in an alternate world? I feel like it's omnipresent, considering isekai as a subgenre is itself widely present in recent years, despite that trend I have only seen a few of them, and even in the few I've seen it keeps coming up as a focal point. zaidRANGER said: Well that escalated quickly.. Sure is easy to start a debate on mal forums It's fine. It's not that I'm either expecting or demanding universal agreement or something of that nature. Debates are not only perfectly acceptable, but even quite welcome. As long as people strive to remain reasonably respectful, which admittedly doesn't happen as often as it should, either on MAL or anywhere else across the internet. zaidRANGER said: ... And as for me i donno im dumb so i didn't get the message, i'm just enjoyin the show as is, without thinking bout stuffs like this.. Hell this whole thread reminds me of that 1 thread on sonny boy debating over a theory about wether or not the show was about anti-vaccines lol, seriously people even if you dont think you overanalyzed i wonder how you get so offtrack sometimes..Like cmon, not all fictions needs to be related with irl situations.. Hell this show is fantasy even. Even if the message was intended or not thats not the point of the show, like i get it some shows try to be all philospichal and all but in the end all that matters is wether it was intertaining or not.. Debating over stuffs that was intended or not is pointless, wether you agree or not with some philospic view is also pointless the thing that matters is if you find it enjoyable or not..idk what the f you people watch anime shows for..like seriously...so many people like this are starting to spread on mal ngl,bashing on sonnyboy,mushoku,vinland saga,koikimo,higehiro,josee to tora, weathering with you and alot of other recently released anime just cause they have diffrent understanding in certain aspects of the show.. Not because how they conveyed the message or badly written/animated. The only reason for their hate is diffrent understandings. Ffs why cant yall just enjoy the show without relating it with rl for once, a show is created for entertainment, sure some might share 1 or 2 message here and there but thats not the main point all, you are free to agree/disagree with certain message conveyed in a show.. But purely hating a show and bashing it because you found disagreeable message in it is totally uncool my dude. (This post is not pointed at op,this is mostly me just ranting about the haters that bash these kind of show cause of this reasoning) I realize you specify in the last sentence of your post that this is referring to a general trend rather than all directed at me or my post, but just to clarify to make my intentions known - I want to emphasize that I am not bashing the show. And if it contains a message that I disagree with, it also wouldn't serve as a reason for me to bash or even necessarily dislike it. I watch things which may or openly do contain inherent messaging I disagree with all the time. I probably disagree with any overt or implied messages in the majority of what I watch and consume. It's not a benchmark of whether I'm willing to watch something or not or how I assess its quality. My agreement with any theme is not a prerequisite for my enjoyment of the telling of any story or appreciation of what it is trying to do, be, and convey. As for the part about "All that matters is that it's entertaining" or what "the main point" of a show is supposed to be, I think that's very clearly a personal view. People value different things. I believe there's nothing wrong with just watching any show for pure entertainment value at the surface level, but there's also nothing wrong with trying to glean more or something else from it, and finding enjoyment, appreciation, and value in the awareness of those things as well. I believe most series, even many children's and family-geared entertainment series, are designed with this in mind and often intentionally crafted to focus on two or multiple levels to reach a broad swathe of all different sections of the audience. An audience is not a monolith, but is comprised of very different kinds of people with different needs and at different stages in their lives. Many will walk away with differing and oftentimes even conflicting impressions and interpretations of a work. That is what defines and gives art life itself. ConFectx said: I think you are overanalyzing the show. In regards to your other comment about overanalyzing: (no offense) this does not mean your thought was very complex, nor was it something I suspect of taking hours to come up with. It is just too meta. The show will not get any deeper than "Regrets. Live your life to the fullest. I want to save people and be a faithful paladin" - which is totally fine, yet not something to convey any subtle message. I don't understand what gives you or people who have commented to a similar effect the impression that it is "too meta" though. Like, based on what? Is it because you believe anime as a medium is one incapable of having and portraying themes even though it's rife with them? Or because of something the original author or director or additional writers or creative personnel working for the studio in charge have done or said at any point to indicate it was something out of the question for a work they produce? Because I otherwise don't get that impression and don't really see where you or others who share similar sentiments are getting it from. It seems out of left field/arbitrary to me. This anime can't have broader themes or an ideology of the creative minds behind it espoused by its protagonists or antagonists? Why? Plenty of anime, just like a great deal of film and television series in other mediums as well, do. Nothing in this show really presents as being any more blatantly or egregiously watered down, basic, or simplistic than many of them. ISeeLifePeople said: If so then why ? I admire ur analyze about see an anime spesifically but sometimes u kinda stupid tho due to u forgot crucial things. This is an adaptation anime not original anime so no way thr'rnt political, sociology, cultural, behind it. This is pure from author self without involved with government moreover social justice warriors I think you may have misunderstood a portion of my original post as far as what I was theorizing and asking about. I didn't forget and am fully aware that this is based on a light novel, but as it's a major plot point in the very early episodes and nothing I've read or heard from the author or fans commenting on MAL or anywhere else ever once gave me the impression that it's something unique or original to the anime which is not in the light novel, I just assumed it was in the source material too. I'm not alleging that it's original content with no roots in the source forcefully planted into the anime or that it was an act of politicians or other government officials pushing an ideology as a matter of official policy. Authors and mangakas, like all other types of artistic creators, have their own beliefs and vision for the works they create. I meant the political and social views of the original creator and/or any other associated writers rather than any official state-sanctioned political meddling. I just didn't bother referencing the light novel explicitly because I haven't read it and am generally an anime only watcher, so I comment on the story as presented and as it pertains to the anime. I don't worry about what is or isn't in the source; especially if I haven't read it. ISeeLifePeople said: About message behind his desicion with gracefel, is there wrong from it ? Which one better live like YOLO n try anything for ur life or skeptic to society, blame ur circumtances n dont do anything ? Well, I want to reiterate that just because I see and acknowledge a message as being there and want to inquire as to whether others are seeing the same thing I've come across, it doesn't mean that I necessarily disagree with it or consider it wrong. It's important to note that. Now, in this particular case I do disagree, but I think the reason as to why might get a little beyond the scope of the original discussion/question here. Personally, I do not view blind submission to the life-death cycle as desirable, enviable, or admirable as an ultimate end goal and firmly reject the tendency in some human religions. To me it reeks of actively encouraging mankind to stay within the confines of its "natural" biological limitations, keep its collective head down and in the sand, and not stray away or strive toward anything (to reach for the stars or the fruit of knowledge!) outside of that as it represents some perversion of the natural order to not accept birth-marriage-reproduction-some career or war that kills you-acceptance-death and condemns any mind or time for anything outside of that, people who want to challenge and search for expansion of the limitations of humans as a species (and with that, aging, disease/illness and health-related concerns, and mortality), and non-traditional lifestyles. ISeeLifePeople said: Anime is fun but u're man ur responsbility attach until end of ur life if u felt be judged by this anime dats fine for u it means u also feel wrong with urself but the next step only u can choose it which path will u take If a series says "This type of person doing this type of thing is shameful and worthy of ridicule" in a very blatant and persistent way, I think it's just observation to pick up on that. I pick up on details of a story, some easier to notice and some more obfuscated, in practically everything I watch. It doesn't really say anything about whether the writing is good, whether the message is good, whether I agree or disagree with the message and ideology behind it, or if it has any real world relevance or implications for my own life and situation. If someone insults you, do you have to feel badly about yourself for awareness and acknowledgment that you're being insulted? No, I would say you only have to feel badly about yourself if you agree with and reaffirm the insult of the person attacking you due to your own low self-esteem. But acknowledging you're being insulted is just that. Not an agreement or recognition that the message is in any way true or legitimate. I feel like what you say could be believed only by those who don't see the message in the series and therefore conclude that anyone who does is looking for something that isn't there out of their own insecurity, but if you see the thematic trend in written dialogue from the earliest episodes on this topic as I have and apparently some others commenting in this thread indicated they have as well, I don't beliieve you could point to anyone highlighting it as just pulling something out of thin air. I guess it's a case where if someone doesn't see it themselves, they'll just think the people who do are crazy or irrational or making something up, but that honestly surprises me because it didn't come across as that subtle in presentation. |
WatchTillTandavaNov 7, 2021 5:29 AM
WatchTillTandava said: PrincessPorcupin said: I'm not actually attacking you or anything like that. I just find it an odd position to take. Personally I don't think people who make anime would make a story with the basic gist of "hey, don't be a nerd." It's fine - I was more just venting frustration with a general trend I see in a lot of threads and discussions on MAL. I just want and wanted to be crystal clear on what my position is and what I was saying in the original post. As for the intentions of those writers and creators behind the series, have you noticed a recurring phenomenon with a lot of isekai where most characters are late teenage-aged to 20-something young adult males whose life is portrayed as disgraceful so they can find redemption in an alternate world? I feel like it's omnipresent, considering isekai as a subgenre is itself widely present in recent years, despite that trend I have only seen a few of them, and even in the few I've seen it keeps coming up as a focal point. Actually, I was just about to say that I feel like this sort of theme is prevalent in other isekai rather than Paladin, ReZero being the best example that comes to mind. (Spoilers for ReZero ahead for anyone who hasn't seen but would like to) With Re:Zero spoiler rambling out of the way, I feel this kind of take on these subjects is just a symptom of Japanese society at large - the message of "don't be mentally ill" is extremely prevalent in Japan. Only now I feel, is the anime industry even beginning to attempt to deal with subjects of psychological and physical (such as disability) illnesses, so of course there will be flaws, but at least it's a good overall direction to take. |
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| The Character writing thus far on the Adaption doesn't give me the thought that it can display such a complex message behind it's story atleast thus far. Definitely hasn't shown Layers like ReZero or Mushoku Tensei did at the Start and because this is a Rebirth Isekai like MT you think it would be made more clear by now if it was going in that direction Given he is ''of age'' now. |
| By overthinking so much, you may come to a conclusion that Isekai genre is there to temp neets to commit suicide. "Are you a worthless neet, pedo, jobless, autistic, failure of a human being who gets bullied? Well, worry no more. Just jump before the nearest speeding truck-kun and we will reincarnate you as an OP protagonist in a new fantasy world where the harem full of sexy girls is waiting for you!" DO IT NOW!!! To answer your question though, no. I don't think the message is anti-neet, the same way Isekai isn't made to encourage miserable people (mostly teens) to commit suicide. |
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