Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Gou Episode 23 Discussion

Rinkusan said:


I don't see what guilt has anything to do with how much she values her friendship with the others. To Satoko, these are just temporary worlds with temporary existences of her friends, the only permanent exceptions being the two people she's targeted so far.

I agree, and I never even remotely argued that this is just an abused brat on a revenge quest; I think she's almost the complete opposite. She's a mentally unstable and prideful little girl who's overly attached and desperately wants everything back to the way it once was, and putting bystanding friends like Irie, Keiichi, or others who never "betrayed" her through the same memory-scarring treatment just doesn't make sense to me because they haven't changed in a way she didn't like.

Rinkusan said:

I don't see what guilt has anything to do with how much she values her friendship with the others. To Satoko, these are just temporary worlds with temporary existences of her friends, the only permanent exceptions being the two people she's targeted so far.

I agree, and I never even remotely argued that this is just an abused brat on a revenge quest; I think she's almost the complete opposite. She's a mentally unstable and prideful little girl who's overly attached and desperately wants everything back to the way it once was, and putting bystanding friends like Irie, Keiichi, or others who never "betrayed" her through the same memory-scarring treatment just doesn't make sense to me because they haven't changed in a way she didn't like.

ssjokg said:


Cringe . If she can just snap her fingers then what was the point of all those suicides in the previous fragments?
Dont tell me that she kills herself and relives the fragment till the card game. There is no guarantee that the cards would have the same position.

Cyanwasserstoff said:

But that is indeed the case. Even Rika in the original did figure out that some events are set in stone. The first 5 Wataganashi killings, the games that are played during the little tournament of Mion,...

The game itself did change, but therefor the new fragment also set this one in stone. That means the order of seats and the cards itself will always be the same, unless either Rika or Satoko interferes.

Even Rika took that to her advantage, when she did foresee the order of seats, the game itself. Through this Keiichi did change the game and Rika actions resolved into a change of the fragment. Otherwise it would have been the same for eternity.

ssjokg said:

Pretty convenient that everything that she can throw away is deemed temporary. That...isnt normal.

What you described isnt really different from a psychopath.

Also, correct me if I am wrong but the way you keep wording it seems to imply that she can make them remember previous worlds, instead of manipulating them after figuring out what they remember.

Eragur said:


Though Satoko should know that these worlds continue to exist even after she kills herself and loops to another fragment. She is aware that she isn't a time traveler and that her "friends" will have to live with the mess she leaves behind. And even if she was a time traveler it would still take a psychopath to treat murdering your "friends" as a game.

Overall everything she does and the way she handles the atrocities she is commiting portray her as a person who doesn't have any feelings left for her so called friends and the person she "loves" the most. Compare that to how Rika handled the looping and you will realise that Satoko is simply a deranged maniac with no excuse at all.

Rinkusan said:


Of course it's not normal since having time-looping powers in and of itself isn't normal, though it's just as normal as Rika abandoning each timeline. I don't see the point here.

I described qualities characteristic of and completely opposite to psychopathic people, namely the value of close attachment to others. The latter is the complete opposite of what would be considered a psychopathic trait.

That's exactly what we've been talking about. I've never disputed her likelihood of continuing to manipulate others; in fact, I straight-up agreed that Satoko would continue to use her "pawns" as she has been, especially with Teppei, in a previous comment. What I'm disputing is how much sense it would make for Satoko to use her newfound character-changing memory powers via repeated trauma on other characters like Irie. To me, it makes zero sense from a character motivation standpoint because unlike a psychopath, Satoko values her friendships.

Eragur said:

Other than that it also makes light of the "miracles" of Keiichi, Rena and Shion remembering other fragments. Now it's just something that will just happen to anyone who is related to you and it might even comletely change their character in a convenient way. Sadly Rika never had the luck of Takano turning into a housewife.

ssjokg said:


Rika giving up on timelines where her friends die from some third party is in no way comparable to Satoko directly torturing and killing them.

Psychopaths are possessive when there is some value in their connections with others. You cant even call Satoko and Rika's bond as friendship anymore from Satoko's perspective. Satoko is manipulating EVERYONE towards a goal for her own good and she doesnt give a shit about how they feel or the morality of her actions.

Also no, Satoko ISNT willingly make them remember and HELL NO she doesn't value them.

-She tortures and kills them just to break Rika.
-She gives up on Satoshi for Rika.
-She has ruined everyone's lives in countless worlds for stupid shit like card games or because Rika wanted to study.

If you see that she still thinks of them as friends then you may be the psychopath here.

Rinkusan said:

I didn't say the two situations are morally comparable. I said that both "aren't normal", and by your logic of Satoko not caring about her friends because she throws them away as temporary, Rika doesn't care about her friends because she throws them away as temporary, especially in Watadamashi-hen.

- She uses them as pawns, certainly; she doesn't torture any of them, and nothing about her manipulative tendencies we've seen so far indicates she doesn't value them as friends (quite the opposite if anything).
- How is this evidence of psychopathic personality disorder?
- How does any of Satoko's endgoal have anything to do with card games and Rika studying on their own? I feel like we watched two very different versions of Satokowashi-hen if card games and "studying is bad" is what you believe is Satoko's entire motivation for doing what she's doing.

Sorry to break it to you, but I am not a psychopath, nor do I believe Satoko is a psychopath. I'm disappointed that you have to rely on personal insult to make your point, let alone the typical "you're projecting" tactic.

Rinkusan said:


I didn't say the two situations are morally comparable. I said that both "aren't normal", and by your logic of Satoko not caring about her friends because she throws them away as temporary, Rika doesn't care about her friends because she throws them away as temporary, especially in Watadamashi-hen.

I'm confused here; are you saying that Satoko is using her character-changing memory powers on Teppei unintentionally?

- She uses them as pawns, certainly; she doesn't torture any of them, and nothing about her manipulative tendencies we've seen so far indicates she doesn't value them as friends (quite the opposite if anything).
- How is this evidence of psychopathic personality disorder?
- How does any of Satoko's endgoal have anything to do with card games and Rika studying on their own? I feel like we watched two very different versions of Satokowashi-hen if card games and "studying is bad" is what you believe is Satoko's entire motivation for doing what she's doing.

Sorry to break it to you, but I am not a psychopath, nor do I believe Satoko is a psychopath. I'm disappointed that you have to rely on personal insult to make your point, let alone the typical "you're projecting" tactic.

ssjokg said:

I really cant understand how you can compare the two or even say that Satoko's behavior isnt psychopathic. If you didn't see how she doesn't give a fuck about anyone except herself then there is nothing more to argue. If you do not see the problem I have to assume that you either think the same or that you don't pay attention to her. I am sorry but the last 7 episodes have only shown that she only cares about about herself and won't hesitate to kill her so calles best friends, lesbian friend and a whole village just to have a happy ending where only she is happy.


As for Teppei, no Satoko DOES NOT have any powers that she can can use on others. They remember on their own and when and if she notices, she then manipulates them like any non magically powered person.

Eragur said:


But even if the card game itself would have the same cards every time then it would still take an awful amount of time to relive the fragments until this card game actually takes place. The finger snapping makes it look effortless but Satoko would have to kill herself dozens of times and waste many weeks to achieve a pointless victory in a card game.

I don't know, it still doesn't feel right that she would be so far gone and detached from any human emotions already. It's like the moment she recieved the looping ability she instantly turned into LD.

Eragur said:

The difference between Rika and Satoko is that Rika only gives up on a loop because she doesn't see any possibility of being able to save everyone. Satoko on the other hand is the person who actively kills people to achieve a selfish goal. Rika does care about her friends but she is frustrated of being unable to stop the murders which is quite normal behavior. Treating your friends like pawns because you feel like you could use their deaths to your advantage on the other hand isn't normal at all.

- She either murders them or somehow forces them into murdering Rika. She does that in order to torture Rika who is also a friend to her. She knows she is ruining their lives in all those loops and doesn't feel guilty at all about doing so. If she'd value them at all she wouldn't use their lifes so nonchalantly for her egoistic goal.
- Not feeling any empathy for other people, neither her "friends" nor her love interest Rika is sign of being a psychopath. She only cares about her own feelings and doesn't take the feelings of other people into consideration at all. She doesn't feel any remorse and instead seems to enjoy using her friends deaths in order to torture Satoko into submission as a game. At this point she is completely lacking any human emotions.
- So just because her endgoal is to keep living in Hinamizawa together with everyone that somehow makes the way she ruins their lives by looping dozens of times for a meaningless cardgame less egoistical and lacking of any empathy?

Rinkusan said:


I don't know why you keep strawmanning me when I straight-up said the two aren't morally comparable. I'm just saying that Rika is also not normal by YOUR logic; in my view, both of their actions are very understandable, but based on YOUR "abandoning friends and moving on to the next world = psychopathic" point, both Satoko and Rika would be psychopathic in your book. I feel like we watched two very different versions of Satokowashi-hen; did her attempts to talk it out with Rika in episodes 21-22, especially her low-blow comment and that one world where she gave Rika a choice, not stand out to you as clear evidence she extremely values her friendships?

It's ironically narcissistic and unempathetic of you to make these accusations against someone who merely has a different interpretation of these characters. I really don't know what you have to gain by being dishonest and making this conversation personal.

Satoko absolutely does have powers she can use on others now, as the first half of episode 23 reveals. They do not remember on their own; Eau explains the crossover of memories between shards is directly influenced by the looper.

Cyanwasserstoff said:

That is the major difference between Rika and Satoko. Rika was observing the fragments with the hope of a change in fate. Satoko wants to controll each event in the fragments itself.

She did watch 100 years of Rika suffering in real time. That is far more then she spent on this card game. Satoko wants to have 100% control of everything that happens, including winning her games.

Rinkusan said:

Absolutely; there very much are core differences in their reasons for abandoning their friends, but by ssj's logic, Rika's act of "throwing her friends away" and moving on to the next world is "not normal". I never said Satoko's manipulative tendencies like using her friends as pawns was normal; rather, I just said Satoko as a whole is not a psychopath, and because of her motivation, which at its core involves valuing her friends, the specific and supposedly "better" scenario of giving someone like Irie the Teppei treatment doesn't make sense from a character perspective.

If you consider the idea that Satoko views Keiichi and company as well as the entirety of Hinamizawa as mere copies before she moves to another world, her willingness to wreak so much havoc, while obviously not justifiable, makes plenty of sense. Calling her a psychopath who has no feelings for her friends in this scenario is the equivalent of calling every Undertale player who has ever done the genocide route a psychopath.

It would be accurate to say that Satoko is becoming more abusive (i.e. more psychopathic) as this battle continues. It would not be accurate, however, to call her a psychopath. Regardless, just as a reminder, the core disagreement here is the amount of sense it would make for Satoko to do to Irie what she did to Teppei; her psychopathy diagnosis is barely relevant at all to the disagreement compared to her motivation.

Eragur said:


Yeah but Satoko watching Rika's loops for a 100 years was even more of a stretch than this card game. Noone, no matter how deranged would waste that much time for basically nothing at all. She was still just a normal child when she started looping and then instantly goes the immortal witch/supervillain route which doesn't make any sense at all.

Jin_uzuki said:
Ever since Gou started I feel like people started to look at Rika's actions more critically while missing the point.

Rika didn't "chose" to be a looper, she didn't choose to die when she was 10, she didn't choose to make her friends go crazy. She did try to save and warn people over and over but after everything failed over and over can people really blame her for not bothering with Rena after she tries to bomb the school for the 54534 time? Her dissociating is not only expected but a way to survive and cope with the situation.

Honestly it's a miracle (eh) she just didn't go ballistic in Gou, because if someone threw me into the same PTSD hellhole I lived for 100 years, I don't think I'd be able to cope. No wonder she wanted to erase herself from existence at one point.

Jin_uzuki said:
Ever since Gou started I feel like people started to look at Rika's actions more critically while missing the point.

Cyanwasserstoff said:


I get that she wanted to watch the 100 year loop of Rika to understand the motives of her best friend/maybe even love interest (I mean she acts like a very strong possessive girl-friend in a unhealthy manner), but the conclusion of hers is strange. Normally that would lead into understanding and in a way where Satoko would search for a compromise. Instead she went completely nuts, like a girl-friend who constantly stalks her loved one to keep them under control and wants to even break her mentally. Satoko has become completely crazy.



I do not think that Rika should be criticized, that she got into the loop situation. The way she wanted to solve her situation was way too passive. She turned into an observer, she did only interfere barely.

She did not involve her friends until the last loops, while she even witnessed before, that Keiichi is very talented in persuading people to follow him and to top that even more, he was able to change events that normally would never ever change.

Rika is my favorite character of Higurashi, but she made the same mistakes that Okabe did in Steins;Gate. Both of them turned to be very observant, but tried their best to do everything on their own. Even when their friends offer help, they did not grab the hand until a very late step of the loops.

Jin_uzuki said:

She did try to involve her friends. She tried to warn people. She even escaped from Hinamizawa in one loop and managed to live until July, but she got caught eventually and the experience was so bad she never wanted to repeat it again.

Nothing ever worked until they started to regain their memories of other worlds. She didn't start passive, she turned passive after repeating the loop hundred of times.

Gou Rika is too passive, yes. But that's because Gou is badly written and has to adhere to the weird remake/sequel thing they had going on for the first half.

ssjokg said:

Wait did you just ignore all of her actions and focused on just St Lucia?
Very convenient ignoring how she treats everyone and herself, as seen in the damashi arcs and that last 4 episodes. But sure lets focus on just a few issues in eps 21 and 22. Any atrocities Satoko did beyond that are irrelevant right?
In your view Rika abandoning worlds were her friends kill each other is the same as Satoko killing them for her selfish goals. Gotcha. Nothing of worth here.Lets move on.
What the two are doing is in no way comparable.

Having different interpretation and comparing different things while ignoring crucial events isnt the same thing. Sorry that I cant calmly deal with people like you that cherry pick what matters in the argument.

Influencing=/=having the power to awaken them. Satoko isnt intentionally awakening their memories, whenever she wants, with whoever she wants and neither did Rika for all those 100 years. Being near them is affecting them. At nopoint of that scene did either acknowledge that she can use it like that. And lets not even talk about he possibility of Eua bullshitting Satoko since this plot point is pure bullshit since remembering other kakera had a very low chance of happening and was important whenever it happened. In Gou it happens in every kakera.

Shit, another reason to hate this, turning a "miracle" to some random power the looper has.

Eragur said:


That's not what ssjokg was arguing either. You calling both Satoko's and Rika's actions "not normal" compares their morality as if they were similarly bad. Killing your friends =/= giving up on trying to save your friends. You can't simply call both "abandoning your friends" as if it's the same thing with minor differences.

Also it doesn't matter at all what her "core values" are. If I want to live my life together with a friend that's a nice goal but if I do so by cutting off their limbs and hold them prisoner in my house then it's not so nice anymore, is it? In that case I am not someone who holds their friends dear but a psychopath.

Same with Satoko. How can you say that she values her friends at her core? She litterally wants to torture her best friend/love interest into sumbission. She doesn't give the slightest shit about Rika's feelings and wishes. Nor about the feelings or wishes of her other friends. The only thing that matters for her is that she doesn't want to be alone, and that's why she is going to murder all of her friends over and over again. Calling that "at core she is valuing her friends" is simply insane.

And why would she view them as simple copies when she knows that these are her friends and that their worlds will continue after she left them? If I imagine that all the people I meet in RL are just NPC's without souls, does that make it not psychopathic if I go murder them?

You sure have some twisted logic.

ssjokg said:
Then why the need to kill herself?

abystoma2 said:
Well, she wasn't actually shown to kill hersel when doing those card tricks. I don't believe anything Ryukishi doesn't show on screen. That said, I don't straight out believe something just because it's shown on screen also, that's the kind of writer Ryukishi is.

Chargecoulomb said:


If she can control time without killing herself... Why go through the pain and effort? Specially when Rika wont remember any of it,

and its not like Satoko is immune to pain either... at least not from what weve been shown so far.

abystoma2 said:
She might have been snapping fingers just for a show, and instaed she just rememberd the card location from previous fragments. Same as Rika just remembers how it goes after so many loops.

ssjokg said:

The scene's intention was to show that she loops back till she memorized all the card positions.

And I don't know, what you suggest seems worse somehow.

abystoma2 said:


Worse, but not as stupid as killing yourself because you didn't quess the cards correctly. Then again, Satoko has been shown to act stupid, so it is within possibilities that she did literally that out of spite.

ssjokg said:
You were the first to strawman your way through this argument when you started bringing up Rika abandoning worlds. You bring up an irrelevant fact and then act all butthurt when others focus on the ridiculousness of it.

And since your definition of friendship is so warped there is nothing to discuss. Nothing Satoko said or done in early Satokowashi shows that her feelings are sincere.
She had one honest talk with Rika in the village and then she kept antagonizing her, killing her, killing herself, aggressively bullying her, killing herself again and again. Nothing there shows her valuing her friends, hell she barely even values her life.

And no, nothing in Satoko's words even implies she can use that power at will. On the contrary she looks uncomfortable with the fact that Teppei will be affected.

Amd narrative is a thing you know. Yes an author can suddenly make up any characters or powers that make past events irrelevant or less impactful. Doesn't mean that they should.

Rinkusan said:


I don't think you know what a strawman is. But thanks for not denying the fact that you did strawman me. I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to understand the relevance of me bringing up Rika, despite me explaining it multiple times now; you're just doing everything you can to win this petty battle of egos knowing full well that you're avoiding the original disagreement. Don't appreciate the dishonesty and malintent, my guy.

Again, we have wildy different interpretations of the events of Satokowashi-hen, and again, thanks for re-validating one of my earlier comments about you insisting on demonizing her from your own perspective rather than understanding her actions from her perspective. I personally recall her having at least 3 honest conversations with Rika, but at this point, I don't think you really care.

I think this new power makes the narrative way more impactful than anything, but none of that matters to you, does it? What matters is the gall a newbie on the forums has for questioning you at every turn. How dare I disagree with your Irie comment, right? It couldn't be because I have a vastly different interpretation of the narrative and Satoko's motivations and actions throughout Satokowashi-hen; I must be just projecting my own psychopathy onto her, right?

I'm disappointed that someone who's contributed to these forums as much as you have has such a fragile ego.

Hulio said:
Hmm well, she snaps her fingers every time she picks up a wrong card, then after snap it is a pair.
+ After everything is done, they're saying how she managed to pick up every pair on the first try.

abystoma2 said:
The "footage" of turning over the wrong cards could be all from one different shard.

ssjokg said:


So bringing attention to an irrelevant thing that only has minor similarities to an argument's point isnt a strawman. Gotcha. Gotta recontextualize strawman, friendship and magical powers thanks to you now...well not really.
Rika's looping actions have no relevance to Satoko's other than being the same powers. There was no reason to bring it up.

Oh yes, Satoko having more than one honest talk(even if only in the place overlooking the village being of worth)then going on a killing spree definitely doesnt demonizing herself on her own. I do.

I understand her reasons. I still dont empathize with her and I know she is a freaking psychopath that deserves endless hell for what she is doing to countless people in countless fragments.


Speaiking of fragile ego, imagine being this mad because I was being "mean" to you over bullshit comparisons YOU brought up and for talking about stuff that didnt happen. Sorry but "it is my opinion" and "my interpretation" doesnt work here. If you just want to make up stuff then good for you, but dont try to act butthurt when people call you out on that.

Rinkusan said:


Straw man - an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument. Love it when sassy, condescending rhetoric from an easily-offended egomaniac such as yourself backfires. Also, please stop lying; I made an analogy, and YOU were the one who brought attention to it as a way of avoiding the original disagreement.

I explained the reason I brought it up multiple times: it's a simple analogy using your un-nuanced point that leaving your friends behind in tragedy as you reset the timeline = psychopath. I love the irony of dedicating so much of your time and energy on what you consider to be a trivial comparison.

I really want to believe that your reading comprehension isn't this bad. Are you just tunnel-visioning on specific words I say and making false assumptions by missing the point, or are you strawmanning me for the nth time on purpose? I'm saying you're putting an absurd amount of time demonizing her instead of understanding her. Not a single time in this entire conversation did I say her actions weren't wrong, so I don't know why you're being sarcastic here unless you actually believe that I'm trying to morally defend Satoko. If it's the latter, considering you're clearly being nefarious and really want to make this conversation personal, I no longer have a problem with saying that you're either:
1) Too stupid to accurately read what I'm saying
2) Too lazy to read what I'm saying
3) Too offended and narcissistic to honestly respond to what I'm saying
Pick one.

That's straight-up what empathizing means: understanding other people's thoughts and feelings.

Hey, thanks for not denying that you have a fragile ego. Appreciate you making this easy for me. Sorry that you're projecting the "butthurt" you're experiencing onto the person you disagree with, but there's nothing I can do for people like yourself with malintent.

ssjokg said:
Yes, that's what it is. She flips a card and if it is wrong she kills herself and moves to another shard and keeps repeating till she gets every card right.

abystoma2 said:

No, I meant one single shard, not multiple shards each for wrong guess. This would require only on jump into a different shard.

Rinkusan said:
That's straight-up what empathizing means: understanding other people's thoughts and feelings.

ssjokg said:

The probability that the cards would be in the same position, not to even mention the probability of playing the game in the first place, are incredibly low.

And I dont see the point of the multiple snaps if it was only one shard jump.

Regardless, the only thing that changes is the number of times she killed herself just to beat some kids in some card game that she should be good at in the first place.It is still pretty stupid, both for the character and the writing.

abystoma2 said:

Actually, iirc those games don't change as Rika herself performed a similar trick (though I might be remembering that wrong.

Meaning, the snaps were just for the effect and the flashback to the wrong choices were just flashbacks to previous shards of Satoko's attempts of breaking Rika, meaning she didn't kill herself just to win a stupid game.