Reply to justhuman22
@LostSpectre yeah. That scene is a bit jarring and I think the tone of the whole thing could have been handled a bit better to lead you up to it. Granted I think the animation plays up some of what Rae does and does things a little differently. Also the cuts between the scenes in the book made things feel a touch less jarring. But I do see what you are saying. Also. I haven’t read past this scene yet. So I am not sure how the tone goes from here on out.
| @justhuman22 I just can't ignore the glaring contradiction of using Rae's borderline sexual harassment for comedy, because this is a wacky series where the bad (but adorable) girl gets her just desserts, and it's not supposed to be taken literally, but then we jump into this scene that has a much more serious/mature tone, where Claire is being lectured on her bigoted reaction to finding out Rae is gay, and how just because Rae is gay doesn't mean she's going to behave inappropriately in a way that a straight person wouldn't, but we've had plenty of narrative justification up to this point that Rae is very much someone Claire could reasonably feel she's in danger to be around (at least in the comedic sense, prior to this scene we just wouldn't have a realistic frame of reference for such a comment) and this is an example of trying to have your cake and eat it too, and it's an utter tonal misfire to anyone who appreciates narrative cohesion more so than injecting good political messages into media to the detriment of the story. |
LostSpectreOct 17, 2023 1:30 PM
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to Dogemy
@LostSpectre i remember you from my mushoku tensei discussion thread!
could not have said it better myself.
LostSpectre said:
jumping from wacky unrealistic comedy to this far more serious conversation about prejudice, the tonal dissonance is off the charts.
jumping from wacky unrealistic comedy to this far more serious conversation about prejudice, the tonal dissonance is off the charts.
could not have said it better myself.
| @Dogemy Well, that's why it's so forced here, the whole political/social agenda that the author (who is a gay woman) wants to platform, really is a bit contradictory to the tone and atmosphere of the series prior to this very serious conversation, that is intentionally framed to hit you over the head and take you by surprise. I find it really difficult to ignore using borderline sexual harassment for comedy in one aspect, and then legitimately making Claire seem like a bigot for thinking Rae would do anything inappropriate just because she's gay, when Rae has done plenty of things that are inappropriate already! It's only natural for these contradictory themes to not mesh well together when one is exaggerated/absurdist comedy, and the other is a completely serious lecture on LGBT intolerance. Misha trying to handwave Rae's personality/actions away as not enough justification to feel that way, and that it specifically has to be about Rae's sexuality, just felt like outright gaslighting to me. At least, if there was any logic to this exchange rather than just forcing Claire and the maid to act dumb/illogical in order to use them as mouthpieces. |
LostSpectreOct 17, 2023 1:33 PM
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
| Seems like western dogma is creeping into Japan. |
Reply to Tighnnari
Seems like western dogma is creeping into Japan.
AdamBirch said: Seems like western dogma is creeping into Japan There have been plenty of anime and manga before this one to tackle the idea/issue of homophobia. |
Reply to LostSpectre
@Dogemy Well, that's why it's so forced here, the whole political/social agenda that the author (who is a gay woman) wants to platform, really is a bit contradictory to the tone and atmosphere of the series prior to this very serious conversation, that is intentionally framed to hit you over the head and take you by surprise. I find it really difficult to ignore using borderline sexual harassment for comedy in one aspect, and then legitimately making Claire seem like a bigot for thinking Rae would do anything inappropriate just because she's gay, when Rae has done plenty of things that are inappropriate already! It's only natural for these contradictory themes to not mesh well together when one is exaggerated/absurdist comedy, and the other is a completely serious lecture on LGBT intolerance. Misha trying to handwave Rae's personality/actions away as not enough justification to feel that way, and that it specifically has to be about Rae's sexuality, just felt like outright gaslighting to me. At least, if there was any logic to this exchange rather than just forcing Claire and the maid to act dumb/illogical in order to use them as mouthpieces.
| @LostSpectre You ever by chance watch that cautious hero anime? |
Reply to Felsun
Dogemy said:
@Felsun I think we are fortunate that, this series is low stakes enough with simple enough characters that this does not really damage what came before or after. i wouldnt even be against similar subjects coming up later provided they are maybe handled a little better.
Really the only characters it pretained to was
Such a conversation and stances on homophobia were not at all alluded to form Misha
They kinda use Claire as the fool which they can use to raise the discussion
And everything that Rae said, kinda matches her character, i was just shocked she was given a setting to bring it up.
@Felsun I think we are fortunate that, this series is low stakes enough with simple enough characters that this does not really damage what came before or after. i wouldnt even be against similar subjects coming up later provided they are maybe handled a little better.
Really the only characters it pretained to was
Such a conversation and stances on homophobia were not at all alluded to form Misha
They kinda use Claire as the fool which they can use to raise the discussion
And everything that Rae said, kinda matches her character, i was just shocked she was given a setting to bring it up.
I think it damages them (at least by having them behave so differently and go against how they were previously characterized) but I don’t think it’s irreparable so I think we both agree that this doesn’t destroy them.
Everything else I completely agree on. I really hadn’t thought about Misha much but you’re right that it’s out of left field for her as well. Hey by the way am I crazy or did they say Misha and Rae were just roommates in episode 1 but then in episode 3 refer to them as best friends? Lol I thought that’s how they were characterized because I remember going back in episode 1 since I was curious about their relationship but I could be misremembering this.
| @Felsun Indeed i recall that being the case too. It rides somewhere between an inability to show dont tell, and them using the fact that, ultimately these are video game characters and misha in that video game is not too important. So its somewhere between meta humor and bad writing. but again i dont really pick these kind of shows up for their story writing merits. And i enjoy the comedy so its achieving what i want since im at the point where my expectations for quality yuri these days are low. |
Reply to Dogemy
@LostSpectre
You ever by chance watch that cautious hero anime?
You ever by chance watch that cautious hero anime?
| @Dogemy That's... an interesting thing to bring up, because I have, and I despise it for that nonsensical asspull at the end. lol Why? |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to Tighnnari
Seems like western dogma is creeping into Japan.
| @AdamBirch I think this is the one thing i disagree with the most. hopefully im not taking a joke literally, but that kind of dogma in the west is one that is centered around the audience expectations, or at least what producers think audience expectations are. the producers think it will look good if they show some representation, and in the end execute in a shallow way that blatantly shows no real thought, care, or attention for what could otherwise be a noble intention. but japan is certainly not a gold mind for that kind of culture, and remember this was a light novel, so to think that the novel's editor or the author themselves thought this might get some good PR, or display an open mind to consumers feels just, incorrect. to its detriment at times, Japan is just not concerned about the stuff in a sociopolitical way. at least that is my understanding. |
Reply to LostSpectre
@Dogemy That's... an interesting thing to bring up, because I have, and I despise it for that nonsensical asspull at the end. lol
Why?
Why?
| @LostSpectre i am glad we are on the same page. i thought that anime was... passably funny, the slapstick got pretty old especially if you already seen something like konosuba. but i was prepared to watch it out. but that shit at the end, where they try and go from, the least serious gag anime of that year, to some like serious backstory thats supposed to make you feel emotions was terrible. I have a friend who i was watching with and he was like "i dunno i thought it was good character writing for a needed backstory." I disagreed staunchly on both of those points. But to tie it in to this conversation, and i think you already know where i was going with this, to a much less offensive extent, that is the sort of feeling i felt when this super care free yuri comedy show in a growing otome isekai subgenre in the matter of a scene change switched its status quo to make an attempt at social commentary. it really does not matter if they handled that scene well or not in terms of treating the subject with nuance and demonstrating a good understanding for the issue as it is. that sort of tonal whiplash is going to hit me hard in a way that i dont love. because this was one scene, and not the end to a goofy-ah season long plot, its not as painful as cautious hero, but its got that same feel to it. |
Reply to Dogemy
@AdamBirch I think this is the one thing i disagree with the most. hopefully im not taking a joke literally,
but that kind of dogma in the west is one that is centered around the audience expectations, or at least what producers think audience expectations are.
the producers think it will look good if they show some representation, and in the end execute in a shallow way that blatantly shows no real thought, care, or attention for what could otherwise be a noble intention.
but japan is certainly not a gold mind for that kind of culture, and remember this was a light novel, so to think that the novel's editor or the author themselves thought this might get some good PR, or display an open mind to consumers feels just, incorrect. to its detriment at times, Japan is just not concerned about the stuff in a sociopolitical way. at least that is my understanding.
but that kind of dogma in the west is one that is centered around the audience expectations, or at least what producers think audience expectations are.
the producers think it will look good if they show some representation, and in the end execute in a shallow way that blatantly shows no real thought, care, or attention for what could otherwise be a noble intention.
but japan is certainly not a gold mind for that kind of culture, and remember this was a light novel, so to think that the novel's editor or the author themselves thought this might get some good PR, or display an open mind to consumers feels just, incorrect. to its detriment at times, Japan is just not concerned about the stuff in a sociopolitical way. at least that is my understanding.
| @Dogemy I think they're just talking about the "dogma" of injecting "woke" messaging in media, to the detriment of the work itself. Obviously, it's far more common and widespread in the west, which is why the commenter is referring to it as "creeping into" Japan, because this is not the norm whatsoever. So, the point is not about this type of messaging being normalized in Japan, but simply that some Japanese media is adopting a more western mindset in that regard. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to Dogemy
@LostSpectre
i am glad we are on the same page. i thought that anime was... passably funny, the slapstick got pretty old especially if you already seen something like konosuba. but i was prepared to watch it out.
but that shit at the end, where they try and go from, the least serious gag anime of that year, to some like serious backstory thats supposed to make you feel emotions was terrible. I have a friend who i was watching with and he was like "i dunno i thought it was good character writing for a needed backstory." I disagreed staunchly on both of those points.
But to tie it in to this conversation, and i think you already know where i was going with this, to a much less offensive extent, that is the sort of feeling i felt when this super care free yuri comedy show in a growing otome isekai subgenre in the matter of a scene change switched its status quo to make an attempt at social commentary. it really does not matter if they handled that scene well or not in terms of treating the subject with nuance and demonstrating a good understanding for the issue as it is. that sort of tonal whiplash is going to hit me hard in a way that i dont love.
because this was one scene, and not the end to a goofy-ah season long plot, its not as painful as cautious hero, but its got that same feel to it.
i am glad we are on the same page. i thought that anime was... passably funny, the slapstick got pretty old especially if you already seen something like konosuba. but i was prepared to watch it out.
but that shit at the end, where they try and go from, the least serious gag anime of that year, to some like serious backstory thats supposed to make you feel emotions was terrible. I have a friend who i was watching with and he was like "i dunno i thought it was good character writing for a needed backstory." I disagreed staunchly on both of those points.
But to tie it in to this conversation, and i think you already know where i was going with this, to a much less offensive extent, that is the sort of feeling i felt when this super care free yuri comedy show in a growing otome isekai subgenre in the matter of a scene change switched its status quo to make an attempt at social commentary. it really does not matter if they handled that scene well or not in terms of treating the subject with nuance and demonstrating a good understanding for the issue as it is. that sort of tonal whiplash is going to hit me hard in a way that i dont love.
because this was one scene, and not the end to a goofy-ah season long plot, its not as painful as cautious hero, but its got that same feel to it.
| @Dogemy Ah. I wasn't sure if there was an angle about female/male harassment that I am fuzzy on the details of. Yes, now that you reminded me of that dumpster fire, I can certainly agree that it's very much the same thing in terms of tonal dissonance, but I find this example even more egregious because it's not just a contradiction of story elements, it's a messy contradiction while also trying to make a serious point about prejudice, which is just a clusterfuck. Also, I've heard from another commenter that this scene is "small fry" compared to what's coming, so I really don't know how to feel about that. My interest in the show has fizzled considerably, having nothing to do with pro-LGBT messaging, and everything to do with the awful execution and how it grinded a fun show to a screeching halt. I really think the author should have just made a more mature work instead of trying to shoehorn that narrative into a wacky comedy. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
| @Dogemy I also disliked "Romantic Killer"(?) for similar reasons, despite seeming to be in the minority when that show bizarrely switched tone. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
| Rae is in a fictional world after-all and an otome at that so she probably is aware there is different standards there where she can at least have some fun finally particularly since it probably still feels unreal to her so it's like what anyone would do in a dream plus she is just fangirling really and I wouldn't exactly call it clearly sexual harassment, besides she is doing it to a bully so it's really only fair she does a little teasing back. She also knows everything about all the characters basically so Claire is like a close friend to her right away, she knows what she can do and not do. She is acting like how a lot of people do to celebrities when they meet them they act like they know them because they do to a degree just the celeb doesnt know them back. We also have to keep in mind the girl that was giving that lecturing to Claire didnt witness all the things Rae does personally and Claire only has shown annoyance at the forwardness and confused disgust at Rae's masochism. It did feel like it was a bit awkwardly placed though with the tone of the show till then but it also would have been kind of weird to be really gradual too. |
traedOct 17, 2023 3:53 PM
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
Reply to kotosugu
I can't lie I haven't watched an anime talk about a topic about something like that before so it had blown me off guard a bit
especially when it went from average nutty show plot to just a serious sit down talking about stuff like that. I do wonder where the show goes from here, because I wonder if it will be just Rae just sexually harassing Claire in the means of comedy until Claire admits she's gay in the last episode, or if it will be became more serious about issues like those
I don't think it's the best idea to have a character constantly sexually harassing another and then switch to serious lessons like that. If this story is to teach valuable lessons to the audience, I think it would've been better in a more serious tone. But I guess we will have to find out.
Because, although I haven't really watched shows about topics like these, you would surely want the Gay or in general the "breakthrough" character to be viewed in a more respectable and likeable way to get important topics across
especially when it went from average nutty show plot to just a serious sit down talking about stuff like that. I do wonder where the show goes from here, because I wonder if it will be just Rae just sexually harassing Claire in the means of comedy until Claire admits she's gay in the last episode, or if it will be became more serious about issues like those
I don't think it's the best idea to have a character constantly sexually harassing another and then switch to serious lessons like that. If this story is to teach valuable lessons to the audience, I think it would've been better in a more serious tone. But I guess we will have to find out.
Because, although I haven't really watched shows about topics like these, you would surely want the Gay or in general the "breakthrough" character to be viewed in a more respectable and likeable way to get important topics across
| @Kiyopxn The "woke" crowd doesn't mind that at all. I've already seen those types of people justifying Rae's inappropriate behavior towards Claire as being normal when other female characters are fawning over male characters, but because Rae is gay, it's being viewed as more inappropriate. Which, is a genuinely horrible take, because if you ignore the previous comedic approach to Rae's behavior, when viewed more realistically, she manipulated Claire's father into hiring her as Claire's maid, inserting herself into a position where she has more access to Claire in various states of undress, so factoring in the borderline sexual harassment, the fact Rae has no regard for making Claire uncomfortable with her advances, etc. it sure as hell seems like Claire had a case all along when it comes to feeling like she's in danger. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to kotosugu
traed said:
Rae is in a fictional world after-all and an otome at that so she probably is aware there is different standards there where she can at least have some fun finally particularly since it probably still feels unreal to her so it's like what anyone would do in a dream plus she is just fangirling really and I wouldn't exactly call it clearly sexual harassment, besides she is doing it to a bully so it's really only fair she does a little teasing back. She also knows everything about all the characters basically so Claire is like a close friend to her right away, she knows what she can do and not do. She is acting like how a lot of people do to celebrities when they meet them they act like they know them because they do to a degree just the celeb doesnt know them back. We also have to keep in mind the girl that was giving that lecturing to Claire didnt witness all the things Rae does personally and Claire only has shown annoyance at the forwardness and confused disgust at Rae's masochism. It did feel like it was a bit awkwardly placed though with the tone of the show till then but it also would have been kind of weird to be really gradual too.
Rae is in a fictional world after-all and an otome at that so she probably is aware there is different standards there where she can at least have some fun finally particularly since it probably still feels unreal to her so it's like what anyone would do in a dream plus she is just fangirling really and I wouldn't exactly call it clearly sexual harassment, besides she is doing it to a bully so it's really only fair she does a little teasing back. She also knows everything about all the characters basically so Claire is like a close friend to her right away, she knows what she can do and not do. She is acting like how a lot of people do to celebrities when they meet them they act like they know them because they do to a degree just the celeb doesnt know them back. We also have to keep in mind the girl that was giving that lecturing to Claire didnt witness all the things Rae does personally and Claire only has shown annoyance at the forwardness and confused disgust at Rae's masochism. It did feel like it was a bit awkwardly placed though with the tone of the show till then but it also would have been kind of weird to be really gradual too.
Even if Rae is in a fictional word, the author is bringing up real life issues by having that serious conversation, which I don't think it makes sense having Rae be what would be considered an extremely creepy person be the character for important topics like these.
It just doesn't make sense to have the character that is supposed to be used for teaching the audience certain topics to be such a creep. I haven't spoke to every gay person, but I'm sure the rule would be that they wouldn't be too keen on a character that represents them and their problems be so weird. im sure most gay people don't sexually harass people verbally that they love, especially when the other person is straight at the time
| @Kiyopxn Well yeah it's not the best combination because not everyone would view things as open minded and that complicates things getting any message muddled and less clear. Though if they were simple that would be kind of less interesting. The characters were acknowledging Rae acts weird during the discussion so I guess what was trying to be said is all she does is say her feelings and thoughts dont hurt you or something like that. It is awkward like I said. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
Reply to kotosugu
LostSpectre said:
@Kiyopxn The "woke" crowd doesn't mind that at all. I've already seen those types of people justifying Rae's inappropriate behavior towards Claire as being normal when other female characters are fawning over male characters, but because Rae is gay, it's being viewed as more inappropriate. Which, is a genuinely horrible take, because if you ignore the previous comedic approach to Rae's behavior, when viewed more realistically, she manipulated Claire's father into hiring her as Claire's maid, inserting herself into a position where she has more access to Claire in various states of undress, so factoring in the borderline sexual harassment, the fact Rae has no regard for making Claire uncomfortable with her advances, etc. it sure as hell seems like Claire had a case all along when it comes to feeling like she's in danger.
@Kiyopxn The "woke" crowd doesn't mind that at all. I've already seen those types of people justifying Rae's inappropriate behavior towards Claire as being normal when other female characters are fawning over male characters, but because Rae is gay, it's being viewed as more inappropriate. Which, is a genuinely horrible take, because if you ignore the previous comedic approach to Rae's behavior, when viewed more realistically, she manipulated Claire's father into hiring her as Claire's maid, inserting herself into a position where she has more access to Claire in various states of undress, so factoring in the borderline sexual harassment, the fact Rae has no regard for making Claire uncomfortable with her advances, etc. it sure as hell seems like Claire had a case all along when it comes to feeling like she's in danger.
I dont know anything about any "woke" crowd for the show. I just don't think after all the crazy stuff Rae does, she should be the representation of real life issues.
Like I get it's an anime, an anime is an escape from real life. But if the show is going to deliberately bring real life into it, surely you would want the most important characters to be proper and likeable.
But hey, I'm not the voice of the average person. If the average viewer still gets moved by the message, then it's a good thing I guess
Edit: I dont think the best example of "exposing homophobia" was were Claire says she feels in anger being near Rae. After all the verbal sexual harassment, I don't blame claire for feeling uncomfortable. They should've done that scene with another character
| @Kiyopxn My point is that it's common for people who agree with these types of messages to justify these problematic elements. Which is, ironically, demonstrated when Misha handwaves Claire's concerns about her safety, given Rae's behavior/actions. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to LostSpectre
@Kiyopxn The "woke" crowd doesn't mind that at all. I've already seen those types of people justifying Rae's inappropriate behavior towards Claire as being normal when other female characters are fawning over male characters, but because Rae is gay, it's being viewed as more inappropriate. Which, is a genuinely horrible take, because if you ignore the previous comedic approach to Rae's behavior, when viewed more realistically, she manipulated Claire's father into hiring her as Claire's maid, inserting herself into a position where she has more access to Claire in various states of undress, so factoring in the borderline sexual harassment, the fact Rae has no regard for making Claire uncomfortable with her advances, etc. it sure as hell seems like Claire had a case all along when it comes to feeling like she's in danger.
| @LostSpectre She's been alone with her many times already and hasn't assaulted her. I think that is what is supposed to be what indicates Rae is harmless. Also she wanted to be her maid not to just perv on her it was so she could be her wingwoman. I get it isn't the most clear thing how things are done though. A muddled message. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
Reply to traed
@LostSpectre
She's been alone with her many times already and hasn't assaulted her. I think that is what is supposed to be what indicates Rae is harmless. Also she wanted to be her maid not to just perv on her it was so she could be her wingwoman. I get it isn't the most clear thing how things are done though. A muddled message.
She's been alone with her many times already and hasn't assaulted her. I think that is what is supposed to be what indicates Rae is harmless. Also she wanted to be her maid not to just perv on her it was so she could be her wingwoman. I get it isn't the most clear thing how things are done though. A muddled message.
| @traed Realistically speaking, she's done things that are 100% inappropriate, just not full on sexual assault, obviously. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
LostSpectre said: Realistically speaking, she's done things that are 100% inappropriate, just not full on sexual assault, obviously. Japan might not have the same standards of what is considered sexual harassment especially in fiction so it makes it harder to tell if the Japanese audience would see things that way or not. Like I said it is muddled in message at least for Western viewers with this awkwardly mixed joking and serious tone in the show. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
Kiyopxn said: Now obviously, these are both artificial people, so for the sake of the story of course Rae won't do anything like that, and Claire wont stop her. At the end of the day these characters come from the author's fantasy that he made for this world. But to teach a real lesson, surely you would want the characters to behave in a way that real humans do. Like how for example that other character calling out claires "homophobic" attitude which wasn't homophobic but in fact fully justified. Like I brought up earlier Rae is acting like someone would act waking up in a game world and acting similar to how some people act toward celebrities. You can find all sorts of stories of celebrities talking about awkward moments with fans. Misha, I'm not sure since like I said it could just be her not being there personally for most of things I guess? Though I havent really paid much attention to her previous actions since I wasn't aware she would become a more introduced character so I'd have to go back and check what she previously was saing before this episode. You could argue for Claire being less realistic though where she seems inconsistent in how she acts toward Rae but as as far as we are in the anime we don't really know Claire's inner thoughts just her actions. So it's messy, yes. Kiyopxn said: Now I saw you said that as this from Japan, so perhaps the author and the average Japanese person may view things like this differently. But, assuming this is for a more progressive audience, you wouldn't want to include sexual harassment elements which I'm sure is a touchy topic in Japan even if it does have different viewpoints from west. I'm not really sure on the audience being progressive. Since a person could have regressive views about homosexuals while still fetishizing lesbian relationships. Then you also have the weird weebs that hate watch. So I am not sure if or if not the intent was to actually lecture some of the readers/viewers which it really wouldn't do good at with all the muddling of the message or if it never was intended for that and is merely giving a gesture to gay and bi readers/viewers. The later probably would make more sense to be the reason why things are how they are. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| The so called message would be much better if Rae is not such a stereotypical predatory lesbian character. It won't be so forced if they actually criticize the harassment and bullying first, from both Claire and Rae. But nope, it's all rainbow before and suddenly they get serious for this specific topic. |
Reply to traed
LostSpectre said:
Realistically speaking, she's done things that are 100% inappropriate, just not full on sexual assault, obviously.
Realistically speaking, she's done things that are 100% inappropriate, just not full on sexual assault, obviously.
Japan might not have the same standards of what is considered sexual harassment especially in fiction so it makes it harder to tell if the Japanese audience would see things that way or not. Like I said it is muddled in message at least for Western viewers with this awkwardly mixed joking and serious tone in the show.
| @traed I read through up to here in the LN and it illuminated some things. The LN doesn't portray Rae as predatory to nearly the same extent. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to LostSpectre
@traed I read through up to here in the LN and it illuminated some things. The LN doesn't portray Rae as predatory to nearly the same extent.
| @LostSpectre Ah so it is more an adaptation problem where the tone is messed up? |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
Reply to traed
@LostSpectre
Ah so it is more an adaptation problem where the tone is messed up?
Ah so it is more an adaptation problem where the tone is messed up?
| @traed The anime dials up the comedy across the board, it definitely makes Rae out to be creepier, plus we're missing a lot of little tidbits of context during her monologues and such. However, I don't find the scene in episode 3 to be any less objectionable, it's still a huge tonal shift, and I don't believe the logic is supported here, the LN expands much more on the prejudice of that world and homophobia in both that world/Japan, but it feels like it all comes out of nowhere, like none of this is realistically shown or even hinted at before this sudden and dramatic shift, and that's just bad writing to me. So, my issues with the execution of it all are actually even worse in the LN compared to the anime. Rae's forwardness toward Claire is actually addressed (in monologue) as potentially being problematic, but then her actions are justified because it's a coping mechanism for the discrimination she has faced in her lifetime. So... both of them are definitely kind of a mess. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to LostSpectre
@Dogemy I think they're just talking about the "dogma" of injecting "woke" messaging in media, to the detriment of the work itself. Obviously, it's far more common and widespread in the west, which is why the commenter is referring to it as "creeping into" Japan, because this is not the norm whatsoever. So, the point is not about this type of messaging being normalized in Japan, but simply that some Japanese media is adopting a more western mindset in that regard.
| @LostSpectre I think so too, but i think im tryin to point out a lack of complete comprehension of the culture in which wokeness is inserted into media in the western world. its one thing for the author to spread their socio-political beliefs in their work. thats pretty western true, and they are doing that here. But when you talk about this with the discussion of when inclusivity or political correctness is forced into western media, often i would think of examples where the author is not spreading their beliefs, just spreading that which they think will get pandering points. i really dont believe the author is following the western trend of getting a point across because they pander, but getting a point across because they care. i am fine with shows doing the latter when they are more subtle and respect the time and place better than this example, but still my point remains. i hope i put it well at least. |
Reply to traed
@LostSpectre
She's been alone with her many times already and hasn't assaulted her. I think that is what is supposed to be what indicates Rae is harmless. Also she wanted to be her maid not to just perv on her it was so she could be her wingwoman. I get it isn't the most clear thing how things are done though. A muddled message.
She's been alone with her many times already and hasn't assaulted her. I think that is what is supposed to be what indicates Rae is harmless. Also she wanted to be her maid not to just perv on her it was so she could be her wingwoman. I get it isn't the most clear thing how things are done though. A muddled message.
| @traed This logic is fine when applied to a show you know is not trying to tie parallels to real world social-political issues. However this show took an important stance on a very real issue, clearly in the way that they want the audience if ill-informed or opposing to learn something from it. Im sorry but when you take a stance like that its hard to suddenly go back and say, the anime is all for gags and laughs, we cant take anything too serious because of anime tropiness. so that being, if we say we take everything presented by the anime as serious commentary, then a line like traed said: She's been alone with her many times already and hasn't assaulted her. holds up horrifically when you frame it with respect to the real world. the message being muddled in how it was presented in one thing, but when you cannot empirically prove that some things in a show are meant to be taken seriously, and some are not, you get these arbitrary moments where you cannot claim to know that X was meant to be serious, and Y was meant to be a gag. And thus you cant use Y as an attack of X. i want to point out im really not offended or put off by what happened this episode. i plan to keep watching and have not changed my score. but i was only gonna give the show a 6 or 7 as is anyways. this sort of event though, would harm the consistency of better shows because the questions is raises about in other wise innocuous trope scenes in the anime. We wouldnt care if the pot was black if it did not call the kettle black. |
Reply to GundhamTanaka95
As someone who’s LGBTQ+, seeing a lot of these comments is giving me secondhand embarrassment. Gotta love the complete & utter lack of critical thinking skills that I’m seeing from most of y’all. Anyone saying that this scene was “cringe” or “forced”, I can’t take you seriously like at all. In most yuri manga/anime, the topic of sexual orientation is rarely brought up/discussed and that’s a problem. Conversations like this are so important and they shouldn’t be glossed over, not to mention it’s something that a lot of us within the community can relate to as we discover more about ourselves & our place within the community. Without spoiling the manga or light novels, the series is going to delve into much more serious topics like politics & classism just to name a few examples. So the show taking some time to be {for the most part} serious for a few minutes isn’t exactly out of place. I could say more, but I think I’ve said enough because I don’t want to get into discussions/debates with people who clearly can’t engage with media and serious topics with any sort of logic or tact.
| @GundhamTanaka95 Later in the novel, do they handle the tonal balancing better? or is it as sudden as it was here. |
| This show is about a psycho stalker harassing their victim untill they give in.Anything this show says becomes null and void due to is morally repungant premise. |
K-_-01Oct 18, 2023 12:07 AM
Reply to Dogemy
@LostSpectre
I think so too, but i think im tryin to point out a lack of complete comprehension of the culture in which wokeness is inserted into media in the western world.
its one thing for the author to spread their socio-political beliefs in their work. thats pretty western true, and they are doing that here.
But when you talk about this with the discussion of when inclusivity or political correctness is forced into western media, often i would think of examples where the author is not spreading their beliefs, just spreading that which they think will get pandering points.
i really dont believe the author is following the western trend of getting a point across because they pander, but getting a point across because they care.
i am fine with shows doing the latter when they are more subtle and respect the time and place better than this example, but still my point remains.
i hope i put it well at least.
I think so too, but i think im tryin to point out a lack of complete comprehension of the culture in which wokeness is inserted into media in the western world.
its one thing for the author to spread their socio-political beliefs in their work. thats pretty western true, and they are doing that here.
But when you talk about this with the discussion of when inclusivity or political correctness is forced into western media, often i would think of examples where the author is not spreading their beliefs, just spreading that which they think will get pandering points.
i really dont believe the author is following the western trend of getting a point across because they pander, but getting a point across because they care.
i am fine with shows doing the latter when they are more subtle and respect the time and place better than this example, but still my point remains.
i hope i put it well at least.
| @Dogemy Ah. I can't say I've ever really had the mindset that most of these types are pandering in that regard, but who can say for sure. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to GundhamTanaka95
As someone who’s LGBTQ+, seeing a lot of these comments is giving me secondhand embarrassment. Gotta love the complete & utter lack of critical thinking skills that I’m seeing from most of y’all. Anyone saying that this scene was “cringe” or “forced”, I can’t take you seriously like at all. In most yuri manga/anime, the topic of sexual orientation is rarely brought up/discussed and that’s a problem. Conversations like this are so important and they shouldn’t be glossed over, not to mention it’s something that a lot of us within the community can relate to as we discover more about ourselves & our place within the community. Without spoiling the manga or light novels, the series is going to delve into much more serious topics like politics & classism just to name a few examples. So the show taking some time to be {for the most part} serious for a few minutes isn’t exactly out of place. I could say more, but I think I’ve said enough because I don’t want to get into discussions/debates with people who clearly can’t engage with media and serious topics with any sort of logic or tact.
| @GundhamTanaka95 In what universe is it not forced to radically shift tone and lecture the audience about gay prejudice for 5 mins? lol Now, the LN is a bit more grounded in tone throughout, so the whiplash isn't as extreme, but it introduces new problems as well. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to K-_-01
This show is about a psycho stalker harassing their victim untill they give in.Anything this show says becomes null and void due to is morally repungant premise.
| @K-_-01 It's surreal to see people having moral or social issues about this show, when - as you've said - its premise alone is already controversial. This show does not pretend to be like most of other shows with similar themes. That's why being triggered by it is weird to me. Sure, one can criticize the depiction of certain elements or those elements itself, like few people have already done in this thread. There's totally nothing wrong with that and it's even encouraged when discussing about various shows, not only anime. However, you could feel disappointment coming from some posts, as if their authors were upset that a series with morally repulsive stuff at its core and is not pretending to not have it, has controversial things featured in it. But well, I guess many anime fans are like that. Watching something that triggers them, hoping for such show to become "akshually wholesome" later on, and rant when it doesn't and/or becomes worse. |
| This thread is so weird. The anime is about harassment, stalking, bullying and homosexuality and yet people here are triggered out of a character asking about gay tolerance. Did you really not expect to see your gay anime sending gay messages? |
| I really don't care. It's a fictional piece of entertainment, from another culture - on the other side of the planet. How can you be offended by that? It doesn't concern you. Is this really the most pressing issue you've got?....You're talking about "guilt" and "harassment"......my dude....relax a little. It's a silly cartoon. |
Merve2LoveOct 18, 2023 7:14 AM
 |
Reply to GundhamTanaka95
LostSpectre said:
@GundhamTanaka95 In what universe is it not forced to radically shift tone and lecture the audience about gay prejudice for 5 mins? lol
Now, the LN is a bit more grounded in tone throughout, so the whiplash isn't as extreme, but it introduces new problems as well.
@GundhamTanaka95 In what universe is it not forced to radically shift tone and lecture the audience about gay prejudice for 5 mins? lol
Now, the LN is a bit more grounded in tone throughout, so the whiplash isn't as extreme, but it introduces new problems as well.
You’re legit just spouting nonsense, there’s no radical shift in tone?! All Misha asked Rae was “are you gay?”, which led to a mostly calm discussion that openly talked about sexual orientation, homophobia, etc… Also Misha wasn’t lecturing Claire about “gay prejudice”, she was explaining why Claire saying “I’m sensing that I’m in danger” while purposely leaning away from Rae who just said that they’re into girls romantically is homophobic and it doesn’t matter if it was intentional or not. Like how is it possible to be this obtuse, it’s not that hard to grasp and yet you’ve shown that you don’t understand/have completely missed the point of every single part of this conversation. Don’t expect another response from me, it’s not because I can’t take criticism, rather after reading your last response… you seem like an incredibly unpleasant person that lacks awareness.
| @GundhamTanaka95 I can only assume that you do not understand the concept of a narrative shift in tone, so it's probably best you don't respond. Let's not even get into how tone deaf it is to lecture Claire about why gay people are just like everyone else, so she has no reason to think she would be in any danger from Rae, aside from all the reasons that Rae gives Claire to feel like she might be in danger when she acts like a borderline predatory gay stereotype, and Claire specifically says as much, and even worse, in the LN Rae actually admits her behavior is likely problematic and may be crossing boundaries, but justifies it by making herself the victim. lol So, I guess the moral here is that Claire shouldn't feel unsafe because Rae is gay, she should feel unsafe because Rae is a creep? 🤣 |
LostSpectreOct 18, 2023 9:08 AM
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
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