| Seriously. You're gonna let your village be killed off because of some little vampire girl? Your friends, family, everything you've ever known and/or loved....you're going to let them all be murdered and turned into zombie vampires because of your strange affection for this century old zombie vampire bitch. What the fuck? |
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| my sig is raw lol |
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| I don't know if he was the worst, but yeah, you're right, his actions with that Sunako girl or however she was called, especially when he already knew that she's one of the Shiki.... it was weird O.o but well, he seemed to be kinda psycho, since he tried to kill himself, so maybe he had some psychical disorders, we will never know .o. |
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masaba said: Your friends, family, everything you've ever known and/or loved.... His family was killed by the villagers, led by his best (and only) friend. He has nothing left in the village and, like his book character, he just wanted to get away from it all all along. Besides, in the end he was killed and became risen himself, so he cannot ever return even if he wanted to. Try actually watching the series first before complaining. |
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| The doctor is the worst then the monk |
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rpool179 said: So glad I found a forum on this topic.. Yes, I absolutely hated Muroi!!! Like really, really hated him. The way he was so chalant about the village being infested with the fucking Shiki and the fact he saved that little brat vampire girl Sunnako, whom I really wish Tomio had been able to stake in the fucking heart before Muroi came in and killed him. I hated her too. But man Muroi really has to be one of the worst anime characters evers, always challenging Toshio's ideas and using his ideals of pacifism to argue the Shiki didn't deserve violence even tho they're fucking monsters and a plague. My favorite character was the doctor Toshio Ozaki though, way he was firm in his stand of wanting to kill all the Shiki and exterminate them completely. Of course, Muroi ruined that by escaping with Sunnako sigh. Great anime though. The doctor crazy ass wife killing bastard vs the peaceful monk who wants to understand the shiki and make peace, I'm.go with the monk Oh and I suppose him not doing anything to stop the villagers from killing the people at the temple or stopping them from killing the old man or killing the people in the pipes, and cutting up his wife who woke up not knowing what the hell was going on or why she was tied up and why her husband was doing to her, she was crying and begging for him to stop,.it shows how much he loved her which was 0 by the way, That doctor is a 120 % prick good thing he lost everything tho lol |
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xEmptiness said: masaba said: Seriously. You're gonna let your village be killed off because of some little vampire girl? Your friends, family, everything you've ever known and/or loved....you're going to let them all be murdered and turned into zombie vampires because of your strange affection for this century old zombie vampire bitch. What the fuck? Seishin and Sunako are perhaps the most complex characters in Shiki. They literally drive every theme in this postmodern horror deconstruction. One of the most important theme in Shiki is humanity. As much as the characters are capable of empathizing and caring for individuals in their own circle, both sides were needlessly cruel to each other in general. From the vampires' perspective, the events were equally horrifying for them (watch Shiki specials ep 1). You probably haven't paid much attention to the series at all. Seishin absolutely despised how he was forced to live. His family, his 'friends', his village, all of that meant very little to him. He even attempted suicide before. He described it as the feeling of despair. He wanted to escape from the village, he had no attachment, and was possibly the closest thing to a "neutral" character in this series. When Sunako came along, Seishin was among the first to realize the truth. For he has found someone who can understand his ideology, he no longer felt the need to remain with the people he felt no attachment to. Perhaps in other words, Seishin found where he belonged and his purpose. As for why he killed Tomio despite being a strict pacifist before, I'm sure you would do the same after he murders your whole family and temple workers for no apparent reason, furthering your disgust with the very concept you were trying to protect. Another hint, pay attention to the Cain and Abel story. That was just a simple rough summary. If you didn't even manage to figure that out, or something similar, perhaps this show is out of your intellectual reach. Wonderfully said, bravo. Muroi was actually one of the most interesting characters precisely because he didn't try to intervene in the conflict - it gave a whole new perspective to the situation that is much needed in a series of this depth. Although I would like to point out that Tomio's reason for killing people is because he didn't heed or comprehend the doctor's explanation about the shiki's ability to manipulate/control people, and he warped it into his own idea that these people became traitors to accommodate the shiki. A very good example of what often happens with people who warp religious doctrines into justifying things like say the Crusades. |
ZekkenshinNov 3, 2013 9:03 AM
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Ratohnhaketon said: xEmptiness said: masaba said: Seriously. You're gonna let your village be killed off because of some little vampire girl? Your friends, family, everything you've ever known and/or loved....you're going to let them all be murdered and turned into zombie vampires because of your strange affection for this century old zombie vampire bitch. What the fuck? Seishin and Sunako are perhaps the most complex characters in Shiki. They literally drive every theme in this postmodern horror deconstruction. One of the most important theme in Shiki is humanity. As much as the characters are capable of empathizing and caring for individuals in their own circle, both sides were needlessly cruel to each other in general. From the vampires' perspective, the events were equally horrifying for them (watch Shiki specials ep 1). You probably haven't paid much attention to the series at all. Seishin absolutely despised how he was forced to live. His family, his 'friends', his village, all of that meant very little to him. He even attempted suicide before. He described it as the feeling of despair. He wanted to escape from the village, he had no attachment, and was possibly the closest thing to a "neutral" character in this series. When Sunako came along, Seishin was among the first to realize the truth. For he has found someone who can understand his ideology, he no longer felt the need to remain with the people he felt no attachment to. Perhaps in other words, Seishin found where he belonged and his purpose. As for why he killed Tomio despite being a strict pacifist before, I'm sure you would do the same after he murders your whole family and temple workers for no apparent reason, furthering your disgust with the very concept you were trying to protect. Another hint, pay attention to the Cain and Abel story. That was just a simple rough summary. If you didn't even manage to figure that out, or something similar, perhaps this show is out of your intellectual reach. Wonderfully said, bravo. Muroi was actually one of the most interesting characters precisely because he didn't try to intervene in the conflict - it gave a whole new perspective to the situation that is much needed in a series of this depth. Although I would like to point out that Tomio's reason for killing people is because he didn't heed or comprehend the doctor's explanation about the shiki's ability to manipulate/control people, and he warped it into his own idea that these people became traitors to accommodate the shiki. A very good example of what often happens with people who warp religious doctrines into justifying things like say the Crusades. Tomio was a bastard he killed people besides shiki, I don't think he was religious, at least not in the anime, he and the doctor had no problems killing there relatives, he treated his son badly even when he was human, and the doctor didn't show any hesitation cutting up he's wife, but between the two tomio was more murderous, also he has old fashion ways of thinking, but I agree |
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| Yeah...I get what they were trying to do with murois character but it's pretty silly when you look at the context of the situation. His justification for helping the shiki is absolutely silly. No matter how much pity and sympathy you feel for the shiki...they are the antagonists that come into a peaceful boring village and decide to start slaughtering people. Of course the people will fight back. The vampires scream and beg and cry once they get a taste of their own medicine but it didn't matter to them when they were out hunting humans. And I can't stand that tatsumi guy either. Wish he had a gruesome death but oh well...smug bastard. As for people talking about the doctor being evil killing his transformed wife..are you guys idiots? Why not blame the people responsible for turning her in the first place...Lol Christ. He did what needed to be done to save humans. Compared to miroi the "neutral" character who's justification to washing his hands of human death was because he was depressed lol. |
Marxshall said: xEmptiness said: SophiafrmAustria said: As for people talking about the doctor being evil killing his transformed wife..are you guys idiots? Why not blame the people responsible for turning her in the first place...Lol Christ. By that justification, a person who is induced dementia by another person no longer deserves sympathy or even has the rights to understand why he/she was treated in a cruel way. Obviously it's the other person's fault, so why bother giving this guy the dignity of a human being? Just cut him up for science! That's the kind of reasoning that was OK in the pre 1900s. If you think like that, you'll get the death row nowadays. Put yourself in toshio's shoes, and think... what should i do... should i: A: sit on my ass and and wait until the entire village is overrun by shiki. or B: get a specimen, find out all about it and expose the truth to the village before the shiki kill everyone. I think most people would choose B. Certainly, B would be the 'standard' choice, but most people wouldn't have the guts to brutally/callously experiment on a live, 'human'-like specimen; not to mention one's own wife (or does that make it easier, ha ha.) The experiments were some Nazi/731 grade stuff. |
| I think that Muroi ultimately was the biggest monster in the series. In the end he secured Sunako for himself, after leaving it to the shiki and the villagers to kill each other. Effectively he did nothing to prevent the tragedy and his empathy with Sunako was only to see her potential for the change he craved for. Why? Because Muroi has never being able to do something for himself - break the bonds with his family and go live his own life the way he wanted, for instance. Basically, he is the coward watching from the sidelines till the situation turns favorable to his suppressed inner desires. His family and the temple workers? He doesn't give a flying fuck who'll kill them, except they are moved of his way. Humans? Fine. Shiki - lol, even better. He - never lifted a finger. |
| ^ Unlikely. Shiki's nature is not controllable - we saw some people trying to do so, yet, unless they decide to feed on humans, they only could wait for the dawn (which some of them actually chose). Neither the shiki wanted to negotiate once they felt superior to humans. And negotiate what? Send a maiden or two such that the village survives? Hello? Seriously, I doubt that any external help would do anything different than Toshio, unless it screws up more. The village was slow to get the picture before it was too late, and so it would be any other or another institution or organization for that matter. They could obliterate the area w/o batting an eye, which is the main reason Toshio did what he did. He sacrificed his wife instead of experimenting on others and it was done with the premise to narrow the slaughter in this village instead allowing the shiki infection to spread. I mean, the source is a collection of personal drama in a forced choice situation, not a wishful thinking. |
Krunchy said: But they don't. We've seen Muroi+Sunako and the restaurant owner + her mother have non-lethal blood-sucking relationships. The Kirishiki guy - (the one with the rifle) was also a human, yet he got along perfectly fine.You wasnt paying attention while watching, there was said that SHIKI MUST KILL TO FEED THEMSELVS so put blood banks aside. |
| That applies to them only, every other shiki died pretty much after one bite. |
xEmptiness said: The choice I am more concerned about happens later. Do I: 1. Negotiate a compromise with the Shiki. 2. Expose my specimen to the outside world (instead of killing it) and get help from outside. 3. Plan a slaughter. Both option 1 and 2 are reasonable. Option 3 is immature, rash and ultimately proved bad for everyone. I would choose: 4. Team up with Sunako, and become best buddies with her. |
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DeicidiumZero said: xEmptiness said: The choice I am more concerned about happens later. Do I: 1. Negotiate a compromise with the Shiki. 2. Expose my specimen to the outside world (instead of killing it) and get help from outside. 3. Plan a slaughter. Both option 1 and 2 are reasonable. Option 3 is immature, rash and ultimately proved bad for everyone. I would choose: 4. Team up with Sunako, and become best buddies with her. +1 |
| aw man this show is just so hard to watch not because it's bad but everytime I start to like a character they go get killed, either stay dead or come back to life, then kill my other favorite characters. the monk guy is just the biggest prick in this series other than masao and tohru. (tohru turned into a total whiny faggot when he got killed, and well masao was just an asshole since episode 1) |
UNATURAL said: aw man this show is just so hard to watch not because it's bad but everytime I start to like a character they go get killed, either stay dead or come back to life, then kill my other favorite characters. the monk guy is just the biggest prick in this series other than masao and tohru. (tohru turned into a total whiny faggot when he got killed, and well masao was just an asshole since episode 1) No.it was the doctor who turned in to.a prick |
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| As always you bring good points to the arguments ^ |
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xEmptiness said: Animefreak17a said: As always you bring good points to the arguments ^ Sadly nobody ever replies :( Why sadly? If they don't reply that means they don't have it for a come back, that or they haven't seen it |
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xEmptiness said: Eh I usually skip walls of text, so I probably miss a lot of good points.Animefreak17a said: As always you bring good points to the arguments ^ Sadly nobody ever replies :( |
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xEmptiness said: Animefreak17a said: xEmptiness said: Animefreak17a said: As always you bring good points to the arguments ^ Sadly nobody ever replies :( Why sadly? If they don't reply that means they don't have it for a come back, that or they haven't seen it Because discussions are so meaningless if I always just get the last say. True but it just means youv got your point across and if they don't have anything to counter what you said then just maybe they can see it from your point of view. |
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| I didn't think he was bad, but I did think something was "lacking" as I watched him. Perhaps it was his presentation or something...Anyway, I wonder if he's going to read this: xEmptiness said: The thing with getting outside help is that Ozaki pretty much already gave up after confirming that no one would believe him. It would just make him more stressed. He probably thought it would be better to just keep the scale of things low instead of involving even more people. And besides, a lot more problems would show up if someone with a lot of power DID believe him.GodHimselfx100 said: Its not very safe to ask for outside help. He has no idea how many more vampires exist. Its silly to think that all the shiki on the planet were in their village. In that case everyone is fucked anyway. Might as well give up. It is irrational to plan your course of action for a scenario that is impossible to beat. It is most logical to plan your actions around the worst possible solvable scenario. xEmptiness said: He would have killed anyone who was going to kill Sunako though. The impact of his family's death wasn't what drove him to kill, it was the desire to protect Sunako. <_<GodHimselfx100 said: In order to save an evil murderer (who hasnt btw said anything about stopping murdering in the future) he broke his pacifism. Had he broken that early to save innocent people that didnt for no reason murder 100s of people the whole incident could have been minimized. The fact that the dude killed his family for no reason probably contributed more to breaking pacifism. xEmptiness said: Actually you would indeed have more chance of phisically overpowering an army of Lelouches than negotiating with him. Like the Shiki, Lelouch's power has restrictions which could be abused in order to win. If you tried to negotiate with a bunch of Lelouches you would most likely be controlled, just like with Shikis. Sunako herself mentioned she doesn't consider killing humans wrong since she doesn't hate them and does this to survive. And Tatsumi doesn't seem like the type of guy to negotiate when he has the advantage. Besides, if it really was possible I'm sure the Shiki (or at least Sunako) would have already tried negotiating with humans. Tooru himself said they can't compromise when Natsuno tried telling him that if they came out in the open people would be willing to help.GodHimselfx100 said: Negotiating is VERY dangerous due to their hypnotism. Its like negotiating with a species made entirely of lelouch from code geass. Going back to the impossible to beat scenario point, if that was the case, just give up. Trying to physically overpower a species of LeLouch is even worse than negotiation from a logical standpoint. At least in the case of negotiation, you have a chance of not being absolutely obliterated. xEmptiness said: What decisions? He tried to explain to them but some of the villagers were just extreme and ignored some things he said. He can't control them all.GodHimselfx100 said: He didnt have much choice but to do those experiments. He cant exactly go around killing them without trying to cure one first and he has to know what works against them (it didnt seem like he tried a whole lot but im not a doctor so i certainly dont know if it was sufficient, i can only take the shows word for it). Not to mention sunako forced him into that situation by killing villagers in the first place. He was left with the choice to abandon his humanity to survive or to die and let many other innocent people die to. This was k, the not k part comes from his decisions later. I somewhat agree with the other things you said though, only having minor disagreements. I think both sides were needlessly cruel to each other and that's what turned everything to s***. |
BluexMageJan 22, 2014 2:28 PM
| yah muroi was a really poorly written and unlikable character, he lacked motivation behind his actions and came off more as a complete and utter idiot in the end |
Immahnoob said: Jizzy, I know you have no idea how to argue for shit, tokiyashiro said: Jizzy as you would call yourself because youre a dick The most butthurt award goes to you And clearly you havent watched that many shows thats why you cant determine if a show is unique or not Or maybe you're just a child who likes common stuffs where hero saves the day and guys gets all the girls. Sad taste you have there kid you came up to me in the first place making you look more like a kid who got slapped without me even knowing it and start crying about it to me |
xEmptiness said: It's no longer a matter of belief when you deliver a living vampire. Even the most skeptical scientist is forced to accept it as fact in light of direct evidence. Yes but what you think would happen next? There would be no way of knowing what outsiders with no involvement would do. The outside help would either probably isolate everyone from the village and possibly kill them all since they would fear the spread of Shikis, or catch one Shiki for more experiments.Now, this is mere speculation and most likely didn't cross Toshio's mind. This would probably lead to development of weapons to mass murder them if they suspected they have spread more than that area.Great but now what's left? They have a live specimen of something that is nearly immortal. They would probably try to research some ways for it to know a guaranteed way of someone reviving, becoming nearly immortal, and then spreading Shikis over the people with power who would feed on the powerless and etc etc. xEmptiness said: Eh, to each his own.I believe it's both. However his approach to murder would probably be less direct had he not witnessed Tomio's actions. xEmptiness said: Now I do agree it's pretty much impossible on both ways, but one can at least try. I still think trying to phisically overpower might be better due to the limitations though. An army of Suzaku (granted he didn't want to die) would surely win a fight with Lelouches if they already knew of his power for example. But I guess that's a fair point. The thing is, in order for them to like you, you would already have to be in their reach the whole time and actually let you live long enough.A group of LeLouch capable of hypnosis on sight (or similar) would be impossible to physically overpower or negotiate with. Assuming they did have that power, it's pretty obvious that either they had no intention of controlling humans, or they already had full control. Who cares if they'll control you if you negotiate? If they're that powerful, they already do control you anyway. There's one major advantage of negotiating though. If they like you, they're less likely to completely destroy you. Cows would be gone from existence had they attacked humans on sight. But let's consider that they already like you. (Continuing with the CG analogies)It would pretty much be something like Brittania (Shiki) and Area Eleven (Humans) (And except this time, the higher-ups literally eat you). Sure you're living, but what's really the point? xEmptiness said: That's a fair point, but how would they negotiate? I highly doubt they would accept not biting -any- humans and there would probably be a time where they would go out of control. Then again, I am judging this situation based on the Shikis I know which have already denied that possbility. I'll give you this one.Shiki didn't have that ability though, they needed physical contact, which would make their power meaningless in careful negotiation and direct battles. I disagree with your decision taking the personality of Sunako and Tatsumi into account, because although it was obvious to a watcher like me or you, it wasn't to the villagers. It doesn't take a mathematician to realize that they're outnumbered too. By an existence stronger with unknown powers. xEmptiness said: It was either this or letting the whole village end, which was his only objective. No one believed in him before so that's the only method he found to convince them. (I did feel bad about Chizuru though.)He wasn't being rational about it himself. Planning a public killing of Shiki in front of everyone with his strong speech? To do what exactly? Induce fear and panic? He's a doctor, he knows what happens in epidemics. xEmptiness said: Indeed.Most people don't consider eating what's lower in the food chain cruel. Most people don't consider killing their murderers cruel either. It was inevitable that it was going to happen eventually :p Aaaaah how it feels nice to discuss with people who know what they are talking about. |
BluexMageJan 22, 2014 5:21 PM
xEmptiness said: Yeah, I tend to not be cynical but I think it's because I was totally on Toshio's side the whole time. Dunno where the Sci-fi comment came from though. The thing is, even if they did negotiate the chances of *any* Shiki rebelling in some way if they came to an agreement would still stir things up. But I guess that's a minor thing since they would probably try to make it an isolated case or something.That said, Toshio never aimed for an agreement in the first place. He just wanted to erase them from existence after seeing how many people were dying and he was powerless. He wouldn't have killed his own wife for nothing if he believed at least a little that they could coexist.That's very Sci-Fi and cynical. I don't think it accurately reflects what is most probable to happen. What's actually going to happen is more like: 1. Existence of Shiki known 2. Existence of Shiki known pubically 3. Development of technology against Shiki 4. Ethical consideration in UN/WHO meeting 5. Political pressure 6. Negotiation 7. Conflict or resolution 8. Continuous monitoring Or (less likely) 1. Existence of Shiki known 2. Eradication in private And i still think that they wouldn't only eradicate Shikis. They would probably kill anyone that was bit at least once like the villagers were doing, which Toshio didn't agree with, and would destroy the village even more. xEmptiness said: That's why I said if they knew of his power before being completely dominated/mass-murdered.They could always use something to block the Geass from working and that would be it. Just like when the sun is up for the Shiki, with Jinrous being the exception, but they are too few and like you said, would still lose in an actual direct combat against prepared opponents.There's no physically overpowering a race that can literally look you in the face and say "kill yourself". The choice in this scenario is more: Do I: 1. Live as cattle 2. Die That said, in that scenario, an army of Suzaku would probably choose to die, as well as Toshio and the people who followed him. xEmptiness said: Like I said, total destruction would probably end up killing more than just Shiki, and even if they didn't, they would still destroy the whole village in the proccess, something he wanted to avoid, since that was the reason for his struggle anyway.Which kind of goes back to point one. If he aimed just for total destruction, why not seek outside help and risk them doing exactly just that? Forgive the typos since I'm going to sleep. I'll reply tomorrow if you post anything else. |
BluexMageJan 22, 2014 6:55 PM
xEmptiness said: As there is no way to know how he was thinking it's just speculation but it's basically that. Even if he did consider that Shiki exist outside of the village, he probably didn't want to involve anyone else, or at least not yet. Perhaps he just wanted to save the village and that's it. We'll never know for sure.Idk, your scenario sounded Sci-Fi to me for some reason. That part isn't too important though. Your idea only makes sense to me if Toshio only planned to eradicate the Shiki in the village. If he didn't consider the possibility of Shiki existing elsewhere and he had no intention to co-exist. Under those conditions, I agree with your reasoning. xEmptiness said: The thing is, he probably considered the Shikis to not be overpowered and beyond his reach, that's why he only wanted to be sure of their weakness. Perhaps because the stories of vampires or something. I mean, if any person suddenly discovered a being who resembles vampires, they would most likely try to kill them using the "conventional" methods of killing vampires. After Toshio confirmed that, he most likely assumed other things were the same and went on from that. He only wanted to kill them anyway.Except he didn't bother, and straight up killed his specimen after figuring out their defensive weakness with no regards to their offensive abilities. It is by mere chance that Natsuno happened to defect the Shiki, or Toshio would have failed miserably. If the choice was to just die, why bother planning? I think a rational person would leave this scenario completely out and plan for one where Shiki doesn't have such an overpowered ability. It is not feasible to plan a massacre of invincible beings. xEmptiness said: Fair enough. But the thing is, like I mentioned, he believed that they weren't THAT more powerful and wanted them dead. He wanted to handle this himself (which he believed (or hoped) he could) as if his honor depended on it or something. He was too frustrated after losing so many patients and thought it was his job to handle it.Personally if I was to weigh to risk of "fighting an unknown force" vs "seek outside help with the risk of annihilation", I would choose the latter. That is because the latter option will guarantee either success or draw, while the former success or failure. I would also reason that the former plan has a greater failure rate than success, and the latter plan has a greater success rate than draw. Now, if he really wanted to eradicate ALL Shiki we'll never know since he didn't seem like he wanted to spread the word about them when he left the village. |
NotJizzyHitler said: yah muroi was a really poorly written and unlikable character, he lacked motivation behind his actions and came off more as a complete and utter idiot in the end Better then that crazy mad doctor, the only reason you don't like him was because he went on the shikis side |
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xEmptiness said: Well, it depends really. Some of his actions are due to reason and logic but there's obviously a lot of emotion and such. I mean, he's one of my favorite characters of Shiki and all but it's pretty obvious that he isn't 100% logic/reason. I don't think he's a paragon of justice/savior of humanity either, although he's probably the closest to a justice aligned character in the story. I pretty much like him because of that and the fact that I found he was somewhat relatable (until the point he does that to his wife anyway). I generally like the justice/law-aligned characters, even if they exaggerate sometimes. xDAll your points make sense, but I was arguing these points in response to people who argued that Toshio's actions were all rationally justified. I do not consider Toshio a paragon of justice and savior of humanity like some of the others. I stand by my argument that Toshio's actions were largely emotionally based, with little consideration of the effects of his actions. In other words, people really only like him because he's shown to be the biggest reason the Shiki were largely eliminated. TBH, even that point is disputable, one could argue Tatsumi's overconfidence, Natsuno's defection/knowledge, etc, were even more important contributing factors. I accept that his motives can only be speculated, but I do not accept his actions as the most rational and in the best interest for humanity. In other words, people like him because they want the Shiki to die, not because his actions were admirable. I'd consider his actions "the best for the village", not humanity as a whole. Oh and like I said, I like him for other reasons than him killing Shiki. :P (Well, I did want them to be brutally murdered and eradicated when they got Tooru/Ritsuko but that hate eventually died out when that actually started happening and I became neutral towards them again xD) |
BluexMage said: xEmptiness said: Well, it depends really. Some of his actions are due to reason and logic but there's obviously a lot of emotion and such. I mean, he's one of my favorite characters of Shiki and all but it's pretty obvious that he isn't 100% logic/reason. I don't think he's a paragon of justice/savior of humanity either, although he's probably the closest to a justice aligned character in the story. I pretty much like him because of that and the fact that I found he was somewhat relatable (until the point he does that to his wife anyway). I generally like the justice/law-aligned characters, even if they exaggerate sometimes. xDAll your points make sense, but I was arguing these points in response to people who argued that Toshio's actions were all rationally justified. I do not consider Toshio a paragon of justice and savior of humanity like some of the others. I stand by my argument that Toshio's actions were largely emotionally based, with little consideration of the effects of his actions. In other words, people really only like him because he's shown to be the biggest reason the Shiki were largely eliminated. TBH, even that point is disputable, one could argue Tatsumi's overconfidence, Natsuno's defection/knowledge, etc, were even more important contributing factors. I accept that his motives can only be speculated, but I do not accept his actions as the most rational and in the best interest for humanity. In other words, people like him because they want the Shiki to die, not because his actions were admirable. I'd consider his actions "the best for the village", not humanity as a whole. Oh and like I said, I like him for other reasons than him killing Shiki. :P (Well, I did want them to be brutally murdered and eradicated when they got Tooru/Ritsuko but that hate eventually died out when that actually started happening and I became neutral towards them again xD) Wait wait wait I he was the one who knew the shiki was still them selfs, even after.being turned in to shiki look at what's he's name the kid with the purple hair I for get he's name the doctor knew he was a shiki and he told the kid he didn't want a co-exist with them. All they did was take the doctors word for it that they was mindless monsters and a shell.of there former selfs but we the audience know that the shiki wasn't evil monster or being controlled or mindless monsters they still had there personalities when they was human. Not only did they kill the shiki brutally they killed there fellow humans without trial or anything, Example the people at the temple the villagers killed them because they was related to the monk, there was no- House arrest Trial No looking for him in the temple first before killing them. There way of justice is stupid * kill now ask questions later, your ether with us or against us, were the good guys the shiki are evil so killing even people is justified* I don't know how people can like him not after what he did to his wife and lied to the villagers saying the shiki aren't like what they used to be when they was human. He's way and the villagers way of justice is over the line, there more terrible then the shiki. At least the monk tried to understand the shiki and what some of them was going though and he he could see some of them didn't want to do it but had no other choice. I choose the peace maker then the Genocidal mad man |
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Animefreak17a said: Justice does not equal being kind or the likes. He saw they were killing his species and he did what he had to do to stop them. I didn't say he was a perfect kind reasonable man, just that he did what he thought he had to do. And like I said, I don't think he is"Justice' or anything. Perhaps that may seem a bit odd so I guess I could say "Law-aligned" or something like that.Wait wait wait I he was the one who knew the shiki was still them selfs, even after.being turned in to shiki look at what's he's name the kid with the purple hair I for get he's name the doctor knew he was a shiki and he told the kid he didn't want a co-exist with them. All they did was take the doctors word for it that they was mindless monsters and a shell.of there former selfs but we the audience know that the shiki wasn't evil monster or being controlled or mindless monsters they still had there personalities when they was human. Not only did they kill the shiki brutally they killed there fellow humans without trial or anything, Example the people at the temple the villagers killed them because they was related to the monk, there was no- House arrest Trial No looking for him in the temple first before killing them. There way of justice is stupid * kill now ask questions later, your ether with us or against us, were the good guys the shiki are evil so killing even people is justified* I don't know how people can like him not after what he did to his wife and lied to the villagers saying the shiki aren't like what they used to be when they was human. He's way and the villagers way of justice is over the line, there more terrible then the shiki. At least the monk tried to understand the shiki and what some of them was going though and he he could see some of them didn't want to do it but had no other choice. I choose the peace maker then the Genocidal mad man And Shiki were killing humans. Wether they stayed the same as before doesn't matter since they were just killing humans for their own """selfish""" reasons (surviving). Heck, Riitsuko actually managed to endure the hunger so that s***s on all of the allegations of "it's impossible" (she was going to die but this proves that they can choose to die themselves instead of becoming killers). Not trying to say "waaah Shikis are evil by nature". I'm talking about the humans standpoint. Like emptiness mentioned, we do the same thing to cattle and such. Oh and regarding what Toshio said, it is true. They are no longer "themselves". They died the moment they.....well, died. They just came back as something retaining the same personality but they, as people, have already died. And like I said in some posts back, I didn't agree with the villagers when they started going on a rampage killing -anyone- that had the slightest to do with shikis or something related. The killing got out of hand and there was no way Toshio could do something about it since they stopped listening to him regardind that. And about his wife. Sure, most people wouldn't be strong enough to do that. Heck, I would not. But that was the only way he found to have a chance of success against the Shiki. He had already lost too much and already accepted his wife as "dead" the moment she "died" as a human. He wasn't 100% OK in this situation obviously, but it's not as if there wasn't an explanation for what he did. |
BluexMage said: Animefreak17a said: Justice does not equal being kind or the likes. He saw they were killing his species and he did what he had to do to stop them. I didn't say he was a perfect kind reasonable man, just that he did what he thought he had to do. And like I said, I don't think he is"Justice' or anything. Perhaps that may seem a bit odd so I guess I could say "Law-aligned" or something like that.Wait wait wait I he was the one who knew the shiki was still them selfs, even after.being turned in to shiki look at what's he's name the kid with the purple hair I for get he's name the doctor knew he was a shiki and he told the kid he didn't want a co-exist with them. All they did was take the doctors word for it that they was mindless monsters and a shell.of there former selfs but we the audience know that the shiki wasn't evil monster or being controlled or mindless monsters they still had there personalities when they was human. Not only did they kill the shiki brutally they killed there fellow humans without trial or anything, Example the people at the temple the villagers killed them because they was related to the monk, there was no- House arrest Trial No looking for him in the temple first before killing them. There way of justice is stupid * kill now ask questions later, your ether with us or against us, were the good guys the shiki are evil so killing even people is justified* I don't know how people can like him not after what he did to his wife and lied to the villagers saying the shiki aren't like what they used to be when they was human. He's way and the villagers way of justice is over the line, there more terrible then the shiki. At least the monk tried to understand the shiki and what some of them was going though and he he could see some of them didn't want to do it but had no other choice. I choose the peace maker then the Genocidal mad man And Shiki were killing humans. Wether they stayed the same as before doesn't matter since they were just killing humans for their own """selfish""" reasons (surviving). Heck, Riitsuko actually managed to endure the hunger so that s***s on all of the allegations of "it's impossible" (she was going to die but this proves that they can choose to die themselves instead of becoming killers). Not trying to say "waaah Shikis are evil by nature". I'm talking about the humans standpoint. Like emptiness mentioned, we do the same thing to cattle and such. Oh and regarding what Toshio said, it is true. They are no longer "themselves". They died the moment they.....well, died. They just came back as something retaining the same personality but they, as people, have already died. And like I said in some posts back, I didn't agree with the villagers when they started going on a rampage killing -anyone- that had the slightest to do with shikis or something related. The killing got out of hand and there was no way Toshio could do something about it since they stopped listening to him regardind that. And about his wife. Sure, most people wouldn't be strong enough to do that. Heck, I would not. But that was the only way he found to have a chance of success against the Shiki. He had already lost too much and already accepted his wife as "dead" the moment she "died" as a human. He wasn't 100% OK in this situation obviously, but it's not as if there wasn't an explanation for what he did. I disagree on that sure they wasn't human no more but they was still them selfs but as shiki not only there personalities but there memories was still in tacked and also we see them as they was when they was human, Also the monk was on his feet and alive when he became a werewolf so he didn't die but transformed in to one while alive. The doctors way of doing it was to kill every single one of them while the monk tried a different approach but was to.late because of the doctor telling everyone to kill them is the only way. The monk was a peace keeper and if things went his way then Maybe it wouldn't have turned out the way it did. Let me ask you this then Let say for example a few of your loved ones turned in to shiki and a mob had them and they was begging you to save them and you had a gun what would you do? I'd save my loved ones I wouldn't care if they was shiki cause you thought you lost them but this time you don't want to lose them again then I'd shoot the mob and sneak away. And by the way the doctor didn't even love his wife to begin with even when she was human so it was way easy for him to do it and the reason why he hesitated was because he feared her at first but got used to it. He didn't accept that his wife was dead but he didn't love her to care what he was doing to her. He even questions if he did love her which he didn't. If he shed a tear or said I'm sorry I love you then maybe I'd sympathise for him but no he decreed that they are evil and must be killed only because he says so well I disagree with him completely. The monk to me is the hero and he could see how the humans reacted and he decided to.leave them for the shiki I'd of been much more happy if all the humans died while trying to get away from the fire. This anime shows us how humans are more monster as history has shown us. |
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xEmptiness said: Yeah, pretty much.Burning the village isn't in best interest of the village, but I know you probably mean the human villagers instead. In other words, it really goes back to the original argument: people don't choose an alignment based on justice, they choose one based on their best interest and survival. Animefreak17a said: Yeah I know but, for Toshio at least, they now need to start feeding on others in order to survive, and the people he knew wouldn't kill someone.I disagree on that sure they wasn't human no more but they was still them selfs but as shiki not only there personalities but there memories was still in tacked and also we see them as they was when they was human, Also the monk was on his feet and alive when he became a werewolf so he didn't die but transformed in to one while alive. The doctors way of doing it was to kill every single one of them while the monk tried a different approach but was to.late because of the doctor telling everyone to kill them is the only way. The monk was a peace keeper and if things went his way then Maybe it wouldn't have turned out the way it did. Let me ask you this then Let say for example a few of your loved ones turned in to shiki and a mob had them and they was begging you to save them and you had a gun what would you do? I'd save my loved ones I wouldn't care if they was shiki cause you thought you lost them but this time you don't want to lose them again then I'd shoot the mob and sneak away. And by the way the doctor didn't even love his wife to begin with even when she was human so it was way easy for him to do it and the reason why he hesitated was because he feared her at first but got used to it. He didn't accept that his wife was dead but he didn't love her to care what he was doing to her. He even questions if he did love her which he didn't. If he shed a tear or said I'm sorry I love you then maybe I'd sympathise for him but no he decreed that they are evil and must be killed only because he says so well I disagree with him completely. The monk to me is the hero and he could see how the humans reacted and he decided to.leave them for the shiki I'd of been much more happy if all the humans died while trying to get away from the fire. This anime shows us how humans are more monster as history has shown us. I don't think Muroi "tried a different approach". He didn't try to convince anyone that the Shiki weren't evil. He just related so much to Sunako that he ended up choosing their side. And besides, he ended up becoming a werewolf but not everyone does. Some die and some become Shiki. If people followed his method, it would lead to the same outcome Sunako wanted anyway since he basically just let them feed on him, so it's not really "his side". And I answered this question before. Most likely I wouldn't be able to shoot my loved ones. But Toshio saw that as the easiest method to ensure a win against the Shiki and he did it to ensure the villager's survival. And whether or not he loved his wife I couldn't tell. Sure the moments where we saw them together he didn't seem like a very loving husband, but he was failing to save the people who trusted their lives on him multiple times so that most likely causes a lot of stress. I can't really judge him because of this time period. And I don't think the anime shows any side more cruel than the other. I think it showed both their sides equally. Neither humans nor shiki are 100% kind or 100% evil beings. |
BluexMage said: xEmptiness said: Yeah, pretty much.Burning the village isn't in best interest of the village, but I know you probably mean the human villagers instead. In other words, it really goes back to the original argument: people don't choose an alignment based on justice, they choose one based on their best interest and survival. Animefreak17a said: Yeah I know but, for Toshio at least, they now need to start feeding on others in order to survive, and the people he knew wouldn't kill someone.I disagree on that sure they wasn't human no more but they was still them selfs but as shiki not only there personalities but there memories was still in tacked and also we see them as they was when they was human, Also the monk was on his feet and alive when he became a werewolf so he didn't die but transformed in to one while alive. The doctors way of doing it was to kill every single one of them while the monk tried a different approach but was to.late because of the doctor telling everyone to kill them is the only way. The monk was a peace keeper and if things went his way then Maybe it wouldn't have turned out the way it did. Let me ask you this then Let say for example a few of your loved ones turned in to shiki and a mob had them and they was begging you to save them and you had a gun what would you do? I'd save my loved ones I wouldn't care if they was shiki cause you thought you lost them but this time you don't want to lose them again then I'd shoot the mob and sneak away. And by the way the doctor didn't even love his wife to begin with even when she was human so it was way easy for him to do it and the reason why he hesitated was because he feared her at first but got used to it. He didn't accept that his wife was dead but he didn't love her to care what he was doing to her. He even questions if he did love her which he didn't. If he shed a tear or said I'm sorry I love you then maybe I'd sympathise for him but no he decreed that they are evil and must be killed only because he says so well I disagree with him completely. The monk to me is the hero and he could see how the humans reacted and he decided to.leave them for the shiki I'd of been much more happy if all the humans died while trying to get away from the fire. This anime shows us how humans are more monster as history has shown us. I don't think Muroi "tried a different approach". He didn't try to convince anyone that the Shiki weren't evil. He just related so much to Sunako that he ended up choosing their side. And besides, he ended up becoming a werewolf but not everyone does. Some die and some become Shiki. If people followed his method, it would lead to the same outcome Sunako wanted anyway since he basically just let them feed on him, so it's not really "his side". And I answered this question before. Most likely I wouldn't be able to shoot my loved ones. But Toshio saw that as the easiest method to ensure a win against the Shiki and he did it to ensure the villager's survival. And whether or not he loved his wife I couldn't tell. Sure the moments where we saw them together he didn't seem like a very loving husband, but he was failing to save the people who trusted their lives on him multiple times so that most likely causes a lot of stress. I can't really judge him because of this time period. And I don't think the anime shows any side more cruel than the other. I think it showed both their sides equally. Neither humans nor shiki are 100% kind or 100% evil beings. Yeah it's great seeing a doctor who tries to save life's starts killing and even ignoring there fellow humans who was getting killed by the villagers * temple* Il give you the old man who tried to shoot the doctor * he couldn't stop them* Il give you the people who was killed in the pipes * he didn't know * But there's no way il forgive him for not trying to saying anything about the people who was human in the temple, it was the old bearded dude who lead the way but he didn't say anything to no body about the temple massacre. Besides if you watch dance in the vampire bund and read from chapter 70 and onwards ........... Sorry but I don't see why anyone would want to side with the humans in this series there just crazy paranoid bastards |
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| Masao……..nuff said |
| Honestly, Masao, Tatsumi and Megumi are the better contestants. I don't hate Muroi, rather disappointed with him as a character. His lack of initiative to go against Toshio is what makes him useless as a character. |
Kagami_Hiiragi said: Idc if you think its weird, I have a life and friends and an income of money. |
skyzblue said: Honestly, Masao, Tatsumi and Megumi are the better contestants. I don't hate Muroi, rather disappointed with him as a character. His lack of initiative to go against Toshio is what makes him useless as a character. He tried tho.........the doctor had a whole army with him and they took advantage of the fact that shiki went to sleep during the day and couldn't defend them selfs. Also as a human the monk didn't want to kill anyone ........in the manga he was about to be killed by a human and he missed him and fell over unconscious and he even asked if he was alright even tho the guy tried to kill him and when he was unconscious he left him there .....he could of killed him to stop he from telling the others where he was but didn't. |
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| In my opinion he did start out as a weak willed character but he saw the shiki not as monsters but people who was cursed and felt sorry for them and after seeing what that ass hole of a doctor did to his own wife and being pushed to be come something he didn't want to do and everyone expected him to do without question by the villagers he took a stand and did what he wanted instead of doing what others wanted him to do......his father also hated the village because of the same thing he was raised to become something that was forced on him what he didn't want and was trapped.........but he became strong and said .........No I'm not going to do what some one else wants me to do and stood up for what he thought was right, the monk saw how horrible the humans was and saw they was worse then the shiki .......at least the shiki feed on humans to live .......the humans kill out of hate, fear, paranoia, and was obsessed with everyone to follow the rules and play there part with out question. For me no he isn't the worst character in the series ..........It's the doctor who is the worsted; He was supposed to be the village doctor that the family forced on to him and he and he's friend the monk said they shouldn't let other people force them to be what they wanted them to be but the doctor * these are the doctors words* but in the end he gave in to what others wanted him to do ..........be the village doctor and save people from illnesses ...........he played his part what everyone wanted him to the end which makes him the weak willed one in the series,..............fucking ass hole deserves to die what he did to his wife and among other things |
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Animefreak17a said: For me no he isn't the worst character in the series ..........It's the doctor who is the worsted; ... fucking ass hole deserves to die what he did to his wife and among other things When the whole thing with the shiki started, Toshio was the first to react. He did everything possible to save his patients, while Seishin turned his back on him. It is well shown in the series how Toshio didn't sleep and was completely exhausted because he had to take this fight for the lives of his patients alone (before Natsuno was able to help him out anyway). He didn't know who he can trust and his childhood friend, Seishin, basically just betrayed him. Also when you think about this character, you should remember that he is a doctor. He takes death for what it is and once someone dies - they are nothing but dead. From his perspective, people were not turning into vampires/zombies/superior species, they were just getting killed by other dead people. There were far more cruel experiments in human history and these medical experiments lead to discoveries crucially important for modern medicine. So what he did to his wife (who was, once again, dead for him at that point), he did as a doctor, not a husband. It's one of the points in the story which people don't discuss that much. That some awful experiments, actually took place in real life and the humanity benefited from them and our medicine is able to give some people longer lives today. And also that Toshio has his duty as a doctor. He is moving forward with it no matter his personal attitude. And I do know a surgeon and a pathologist in real life. They have very difficult jobs and a huge responsibility and they literally face death, which does change the way people look at life. Toshio's internal struggle is never really shown in the anime and I can only call it a poor development of his character which, otherwise, has great potential. Ritsuko is also able to overcome her hunger when she becomes a shiki and she accepts that she is dead. I believe that it's partially because she chose a medical profession. There is also this little medical thing to think about: a human brain can't function properly if it was cut from oxygen even for a short while (which happens when someone dies). So you could say that all shiki are brain damaged, lol. But I digress. When the village people go on a killing rampage, Toshio is the only one who is able to stay focused. He does try to stop these people, but there is little he can do against a mad crowd. This is one of the aspects which is also a little overlooked. He might have viewed people from his own perspective and expected them to act with a motivation of saving lives and not with the motivation of taking revenge on shiki and going nuts in the process. But it actually shows well how discriminative human nature is. While it started with the purpose of surviving, it turned into a bloody massacre because people have very little control over their hate. Seishin, on the other hand, was dissatisfied with his life but instead of trying to change it, he tried to commit suicide. It shows exactly how weak willed he is and this is why he went with the flow and ended up with Sunako. He got affected by her views because he felt they were similar in a way. So it gave Sunako an opportunity to manipulate him. I don't see Sunako as a deep character either. She is unable to accept that she is dead and only causes other people to suffer, even though it was done to her against her will. Basically, despite her age, she is just a selfish kid who doesn't have any moral principles, she is not evil, but neither is she innocent. And while it is an interesting concept, it doesn't make her character deep. Don't get me wrong, though. I don't dislike Seishin and to some degree I can relate to him. I dislike the choice he made. It's not because I don't understand why he did it, it's simply because Natsuno is my favorite character. Natsuno accepts that he is already dead, so he accepts that he is defeated, but he isn't going down without a fight. He sacrifices himself to defeat the shiki, but Seishin makes Natsuno's actions useless, since thanks to him Sunako survives with another werewolf to protect her. It just makes me sad, which isn't really relevant to the plot and more of a personal judgement. He also turns his back on his friend, which I can't support either. |
| 1 he wasn't the first to react it was that lady everyone didn't believe, 2 the reason he turned his back on him was because of what the doctor did to his own wife and the monk spoke with the vampire girl and tried to get to know her and they had chemistry and could relate to each other, and the doctor is a hypocrite cause he said he wanted to kill the shiki even tho he didn't mind getting help from one * in th novel he didn't get any help from any shiki he did it by him self* 3 the monk could see that the shiki wasn't mindless monsters like zombies that only wanted to eat human flesh,..........but with the shiki they aren't mindless monsters they have there personalities and emotions and memories of when they was humans .......If they was like mindless monsters with non of these and former shells of there former selfs then I'd understand but they did have them, 4 look at the women who's mother came back to her and she was happy to see her monster back and gladly gave her blood bit was betrayed by her friend by telling the villagers that her friends mother is at her house and they went and killed her...... 5 if they are dead then why are they waking around and talking like humans .......answer they become other species 6 he didn't even care for his wife even when she was human and it was much much much more easy for him to do what he did with out feeling anything while doing what he did........look at that kid who liked the nurse when his father found him staked and dead he throw up and was crying about how he wanted everyone to stop killing each other regardless if there shiki or humans ............ Here's a question for you......If a family member who was very very close to you turned in to a shiki or werewolf and begged you to help them escape what would you do........ My answer is I would help mine and if anyone tried to kill them I'd kill them first before they'd kill my family member and leave without anyone knowing.........what's you answer because we the audience knows the shiki aren't mindless monsters. Here's another question, if someone was protecting a shiki like a family member of there's or a friend and they was putting up resistance to stop you from killing there family who is now a shiki..........What would you do,...........look at the anime and manga there was a few in there Experimenting of living animals is terrible let alone humans an I see it as wrong to do what he did.............look up unit 731 and see what the japanese did to there prisoners it was just like what the fuck nut doctor did. He got more people killed then the shiki ever did both humans and shiki he started a war that got people killed - Look at the people in the temple they didn't do nothing wrong but was killed for being related to the monk * and don't say it was the monks fault because it wasn't it was the bearded guy and the doctors fault, in fact I'm sure he knew the people at the temple didn't know he took the shikis side and thought just kill them anyways. Look at the people in the pipes the doctor told everyone that it takes 4 bits and the ones who was bitten once was killed. Look what they did to shiki when they dragged them out of the pipes........instead of a quick death they demonized them from escaping and chained them to the floor in the sun light and smiling and laughing while they watched them bake in the sun.......And these are people who was there neighbours and friends..............humanity the hero's everyone Look at the old man who was being controlled by the shiki Look at the casualties while fighting the shiki. He didn't even care when they killed his mother he was all straight faced about it. And of course he's wife- When she woke up she didn't know what was going on and saw her husband doing loads of horrible things to her, instead of explaining what she is now he didn't say shit and just continued to experiment on her not saying I'm sorry or a having a cry about what he did or hesitating * he hesitated at first but that was only because he had to make sure she was secured to the table. He's a killer more then anything at least the shiki had a reason they needed to drink human blood, with the doctor he down right hated the shiki and that's the reason why he did it and that's why the monk left him and the monk tried to talk him out of it but the doctor was determined to do what ever it takes * to bad he lost in the end lol* The reason ritsuko didn't want to drink blood was because she didn't want to do it not because she accepted she was dead she didn't want to take another person's life because she was a nurse and wanted to save people. The shiki wasn't Brian damaged the only ones who looked like they was brain damaged was the humans ........not listening and killed out of hate fear and paranoia they didn't think they was letting there emotions do they thinking for them......I think they turned off there Brian's when they went killing.......you know shiki, innocent humans you get it. The doctor is the one responsible for getting the crowed railed up he lied to the humans saying the shiki aren't what they was when they was humans and will try anything fool up you in to thinking they are them selfs........even we the audience knows they was still them selfs as shiki. He even lied to migumis dad saying she was dead because of the shiki but in fact she wasn't dead at all she was a shiki, the doctors lies made everything worse. What a idiot. The monk of course was dissatisfied with his life because of what everyone wanted him to be something that he dint want to be the villagers wanted him to be the next head monk ( read chapter 33) he didn't have control over his life but other people expected him to play he's roll as the village monk and that's the reason why he tried o kill him self to escape from it all, and I take my hat off to him for making his own decisions and did what he wanted to do instead of letting others tell him what he should be............look at the monks dad he hated the village he was raised to become the next head monk and saw he was trapped (again read chapter 33) he's life wasn't he's own but what other people wanted him to be......literally forcing him. So yes in the beginning he was weak willed because of what other people expected him to do without any say of what he wanted but near the end he made his own choice and said no to what others wanted even if he was alone and was hated he took a stand and he's weak resolve turned in to a strong resolve in the end. And let me ask you this if he got affected by sunako then why didn't he die with her.......because he's weak will turned strong and started a new life with her and he wasn't manipulated by her at all in the least....If you think this then your an idiot. Sunako has had a hard life - She gets turned in to a shiki Her family abandoned her She was left in a barn for 20 years and feed on maids they sent her And went looking them for years and couldn't find them. She wanted o have a family of her own and be accepted and call a place of her own. Again she's not dead other wise she wouldn't be moving. And to be honest .....Yes your right she is a selfish kid wanting to have the village as a shiki haven but there's one thing you have for gotten .........she's a child time has stopped for her she can't develop any more in body and mind and even one of her werewolf says it wouldn't work to have a place for shiki to Rome around freely, the reason is because it was a child's pipe dream...............It's like a 5 year old wanting to turn everything in to sweets and chocolate but can't happen and this proves it that mentally and physically she's still a child despite how long she's lived. Again it was a child's pipe dream. She is a deep character she's complex she feds on humans like how we eat animals and plants, she's been though hard ships and I'm sure if she could she'd of turned everyone in to shiki instead of them dying.........you should try and get to know her views and what she's been though. And that's why he did what he did he expects every one to follow what they wanted him to do but instead he followed he's own path instead of what everyone wanted him to even if they didn't like it .....* how deep is that......think about for a moment *. Everyone in this world has a diffrent point of view of seeing things natsuno believes his dead and that's his point of view. But on he other head he didn't rise in the novel he was put in there to relate with the younger crowed in both manga and anime and it wasn't the original writers wish to have him in the manga and anime but was put in by someone else other then the author. Natsuno is a bland emo kid who didn't want to be in the village and was even mean to migumi even when she was human, And your right it isn't relevant to the plot because he was put in the manga and anime because he was to be the age what other people was who was watching it that's the only reason he was brought in o the manga and anime in the novel he didn't rise. At least the monk made his own choice and tried to talk the doctor out of it and if you ask me they turned on each other's back disagreeing on each other's views. Sorry I agree to disagree with you........read page 2 on here in fact read the whole thing because there are loads of people who disagrees with your point of view and the same can be said visa versa. God damn I love debating about this I could go on all day..........thank you for the awesome chat |
geekfreak17aMar 25, 2014 8:06 AM
| I dislike lelouch vi Britannia. im a shiki supporter my YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR90F0rzcss4CsrAbkZXTkg/featured?view_as=subscriber Just past the 1500th Mark bitches I approve this video http://youtu.be/U_0CCLxibFk |
| Read the manga too. |
| I dislike lelouch vi Britannia. im a shiki supporter my YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR90F0rzcss4CsrAbkZXTkg/featured?view_as=subscriber Just past the 1500th Mark bitches I approve this video http://youtu.be/U_0CCLxibFk |
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