Muroi is one of the worst characters in anime

masaba said:
Your friends, family, everything you've ever known and/or loved....

Animefreak17a said:
The doctor is the worst then the monk

rpool179 said:
So glad I found a forum on this topic..

Yes, I absolutely hated Muroi!!! Like really, really hated him. The way he was so chalant about the village being infested with the fucking Shiki and the fact he saved that little brat vampire girl Sunnako, whom I really wish Tomio had been able to stake in the fucking heart before Muroi came in and killed him. I hated her too. But man Muroi really has to be one of the worst anime characters evers, always challenging Toshio's ideas and using his ideals of pacifism to argue the Shiki didn't deserve violence even tho they're fucking monsters and a plague. My favorite character was the doctor Toshio Ozaki though, way he was firm in his stand of wanting to kill all the Shiki and exterminate them completely. Of course, Muroi ruined that by escaping with Sunnako sigh. Great anime though.

xEmptiness said:

That makes Tatsumi and Seishirou equally respectable then.
Unless of course, not being on the human side automatically makes them not respectable for some reason.

xEmptiness said:


Seishin and Sunako are perhaps the most complex characters in Shiki. They literally drive every theme in this postmodern horror deconstruction. One of the most important theme in Shiki is humanity. As much as the characters are capable of empathizing and caring for individuals in their own circle, both sides were needlessly cruel to each other in general. From the vampires' perspective, the events were equally horrifying for them (watch Shiki specials ep 1).

You probably haven't paid much attention to the series at all. Seishin absolutely despised how he was forced to live. His family, his 'friends', his village, all of that meant very little to him. He even attempted suicide before. He described it as the feeling of despair. He wanted to escape from the village, he had no attachment, and was possibly the closest thing to a "neutral" character in this series.

When Sunako came along, Seishin was among the first to realize the truth. For he has found someone who can understand his ideology, he no longer felt the need to remain with the people he felt no attachment to. Perhaps in other words, Seishin found where he belonged and his purpose.

As for why he killed Tomio despite being a strict pacifist before, I'm sure you would do the same after he murders your whole family and temple workers for no apparent reason, furthering your disgust with the very concept you were trying to protect.

Another hint, pay attention to the Cain and Abel story.

That was just a simple rough summary. If you didn't even manage to figure that out, or something similar, perhaps this show is out of your intellectual reach.

Ratohnhaketon said:


Wonderfully said, bravo. Muroi was actually one of the most interesting characters precisely because he didn't try to intervene in the conflict - it gave a whole new perspective to the situation that is much needed in a series of this depth.

Although I would like to point out that Tomio's reason for killing people is because he didn't heed or comprehend the doctor's explanation about the shiki's ability to manipulate/control people, and he warped it into his own idea that these people became traitors to accommodate the shiki. A very good example of what often happens with people who warp religious doctrines into justifying things like say the Crusades.

xEmptiness said:


By that justification, a person who is induced dementia by another person no longer deserves sympathy or even has the rights to understand why he/she was treated in a cruel way. Obviously it's the other person's fault, so why bother giving this guy the dignity of a human being? Just cut him up for science!

That's the kind of reasoning that was OK in the pre 1900s. If you think like that, you'll get the death row nowadays.

Marxshall said:


Put yourself in toshio's shoes, and think... what should i do...
should i:
A: sit on my ass and and wait until the entire village is overrun by shiki.
or
B: get a specimen, find out all about it and expose the truth to the village before the shiki kill everyone.

I think most people would choose B.

Krunchy said:
You wasnt paying attention while watching, there was said that SHIKI MUST KILL TO FEED THEMSELVS so put blood banks aside.

xEmptiness said:

The choice I am more concerned about happens later.
Do I:
1. Negotiate a compromise with the Shiki.
2. Expose my specimen to the outside world (instead of killing it) and get help from outside.
3. Plan a slaughter.

Both option 1 and 2 are reasonable. Option 3 is immature, rash and ultimately proved bad for everyone.

DeicidiumZero said:

I would choose:

4. Team up with Sunako, and become best buddies with her.

xEmptiness said:
+2

UNATURAL said:
aw man this show is just so hard to watch not because it's bad but everytime I start to like a character they go get killed, either stay dead or come back to life, then kill my other favorite characters. the monk guy is just the biggest prick in this series other than masao and tohru. (tohru turned into a total whiny faggot when he got killed, and well masao was just an asshole since episode 1)

xEmptiness said:


Sadly nobody ever replies :(

xEmptiness said:


Sadly nobody ever replies :(

xEmptiness said:

In that case everyone is fucked anyway. Might as well give up. It is irrational to plan your course of action for a scenario that is impossible to beat. It is most logical to plan your actions around the worst possible solvable scenario.

xEmptiness said:


The fact that the dude killed his family for no reason probably contributed more to breaking pacifism.

xEmptiness said:


Going back to the impossible to beat scenario point, if that was the case, just give up. Trying to physically overpower a species of LeLouch is even worse than negotiation from a logical standpoint. At least in the case of negotiation, you have a chance of not being absolutely obliterated.

xEmptiness said:


This was k, the not k part comes from his decisions later.

xEmptiness said:

It's no longer a matter of belief when you deliver a living vampire. Even the most skeptical scientist is forced to accept it as fact in light of direct evidence.

xEmptiness said:

I believe it's both. However his approach to murder would probably be less direct had he not witnessed Tomio's actions.

xEmptiness said:

A group of LeLouch capable of hypnosis on sight (or similar) would be impossible to physically overpower or negotiate with. Assuming they did have that power, it's pretty obvious that either they had no intention of controlling humans, or they already had full control. Who cares if they'll control you if you negotiate? If they're that powerful, they already do control you anyway. There's one major advantage of negotiating though. If they like you, they're less likely to completely destroy you. Cows would be gone from existence had they attacked humans on sight.

xEmptiness said:

Shiki didn't have that ability though, they needed physical contact, which would make their power meaningless in careful negotiation and direct battles. I disagree with your decision taking the personality of Sunako and Tatsumi into account, because although it was obvious to a watcher like me or you, it wasn't to the villagers.

It doesn't take a mathematician to realize that they're outnumbered too. By an existence stronger with unknown powers.

xEmptiness said:

He wasn't being rational about it himself. Planning a public killing of Shiki in front of everyone with his strong speech? To do what exactly? Induce fear and panic? He's a doctor, he knows what happens in epidemics.

xEmptiness said:

Most people don't consider eating what's lower in the food chain cruel. Most people don't consider killing their murderers cruel either. It was inevitable that it was going to happen eventually :p

xEmptiness said:

That's very Sci-Fi and cynical. I don't think it accurately reflects what is most probable to happen.

What's actually going to happen is more like:
1. Existence of Shiki known
2. Existence of Shiki known pubically
3. Development of technology against Shiki
4. Ethical consideration in UN/WHO meeting
5. Political pressure
6. Negotiation
7. Conflict or resolution
8. Continuous monitoring

Or (less likely)
1. Existence of Shiki known
2. Eradication in private

xEmptiness said:

There's no physically overpowering a race that can literally look you in the face and say "kill yourself". The choice in this scenario is more:
Do I:
1. Live as cattle
2. Die

xEmptiness said:

Which kind of goes back to point one. If he aimed just for total destruction, why not seek outside help and risk them doing exactly just that?

xEmptiness said:

Idk, your scenario sounded Sci-Fi to me for some reason. That part isn't too important though.

Your idea only makes sense to me if Toshio only planned to eradicate the Shiki in the village. If he didn't consider the possibility of Shiki existing elsewhere and he had no intention to co-exist. Under those conditions, I agree with your reasoning.

xEmptiness said:
Except he didn't bother, and straight up killed his specimen after figuring out their defensive weakness with no regards to their offensive abilities. It is by mere chance that Natsuno happened to defect the Shiki, or Toshio would have failed miserably. If the choice was to just die, why bother planning?

I think a rational person would leave this scenario completely out and plan for one where Shiki doesn't have such an overpowered ability. It is not feasible to plan a massacre of invincible beings.

xEmptiness said:

Personally if I was to weigh to risk of "fighting an unknown force" vs "seek outside help with the risk of annihilation", I would choose the latter. That is because the latter option will guarantee either success or draw, while the former success or failure. I would also reason that the former plan has a greater failure rate than success, and the latter plan has a greater success rate than draw.

NotJizzyHitler said:
yah muroi was a really poorly written and unlikable character, he lacked motivation behind his actions and came off more as a complete and utter idiot in the end

xEmptiness said:

All your points make sense, but I was arguing these points in response to people who argued that Toshio's actions were all rationally justified. I do not consider Toshio a paragon of justice and savior of humanity like some of the others. I stand by my argument that Toshio's actions were largely emotionally based, with little consideration of the effects of his actions. In other words, people really only like him because he's shown to be the biggest reason the Shiki were largely eliminated. TBH, even that point is disputable, one could argue Tatsumi's overconfidence, Natsuno's defection/knowledge, etc, were even more important contributing factors.

I accept that his motives can only be speculated, but I do not accept his actions as the most rational and in the best interest for humanity. In other words, people like him because they want the Shiki to die, not because his actions were admirable.

BluexMage said:
Well, it depends really. Some of his actions are due to reason and logic but there's obviously a lot of emotion and such. I mean, he's one of my favorite characters of Shiki and all but it's pretty obvious that he isn't 100% logic/reason. I don't think he's a paragon of justice/savior of humanity either, although he's probably the closest to a justice aligned character in the story. I pretty much like him because of that and the fact that I found he was somewhat relatable (until the point he does that to his wife anyway). I generally like the justice/law-aligned characters, even if they exaggerate sometimes. xD

I'd consider his actions "the best for the village", not humanity as a whole.
Oh and like I said, I like him for other reasons than him killing Shiki. :P (Well, I did want them to be brutally murdered and eradicated when they got Tooru/Ritsuko but that hate eventually died out when that actually started happening and I became neutral towards them again xD)

Animefreak17a said:

Wait wait wait

I he was the one who knew the shiki was still them selfs, even after.being turned in to shiki look at what's he's name the kid with the purple hair I for get he's name the doctor knew he was a shiki and he told the kid he didn't want a co-exist with them.

All they did was take the doctors word for it that they was mindless monsters and a shell.of there former selfs but we the audience know that the shiki wasn't evil monster or being controlled or mindless monsters they still had there personalities when they was human.

Not only did they kill the shiki brutally they killed there fellow humans without trial or anything,

Example the people at the temple the villagers killed them because they was related to the monk, there was no-

House arrest
Trial
No looking for him in the temple first before killing them.

There way of justice is stupid * kill now ask questions later, your ether with us or against us, were the good guys the shiki are evil so killing even people is justified*

I don't know how people can like him not after what he did to his wife and lied to the villagers saying the shiki aren't like what they used to be when they was human.


He's way and the villagers way of justice is over the line, there more terrible then the shiki.

At least the monk tried to understand the shiki and what some of them was going though and he he could see some of them didn't want to do it but had no other choice.

I choose the peace maker then the Genocidal mad man

BluexMage said:
Justice does not equal being kind or the likes. He saw they were killing his species and he did what he had to do to stop them. I didn't say he was a perfect kind reasonable man, just that he did what he thought he had to do. And like I said, I don't think he is"Justice' or anything. Perhaps that may seem a bit odd so I guess I could say "Law-aligned" or something like that.

And Shiki were killing humans. Wether they stayed the same as before doesn't matter since they were just killing humans for their own """selfish""" reasons (surviving). Heck, Riitsuko actually managed to endure the hunger so that s***s on all of the allegations of "it's impossible" (she was going to die but this proves that they can choose to die themselves instead of becoming killers). Not trying to say "waaah Shikis are evil by nature". I'm talking about the humans standpoint. Like emptiness mentioned, we do the same thing to cattle and such.

Oh and regarding what Toshio said, it is true. They are no longer "themselves". They died the moment they.....well, died. They just came back as something retaining the same personality but they, as people, have already died.

And like I said in some posts back, I didn't agree with the villagers when they started going on a rampage killing -anyone- that had the slightest to do with shikis or something related. The killing got out of hand and there was no way Toshio could do something about it since they stopped listening to him regardind that.

And about his wife. Sure, most people wouldn't be strong enough to do that. Heck, I would not. But that was the only way he found to have a chance of success against the Shiki. He had already lost too much and already accepted his wife as "dead" the moment she "died" as a human. He wasn't 100% OK in this situation obviously, but it's not as if there wasn't an explanation for what he did.

xEmptiness said:
Burning the village isn't in best interest of the village, but I know you probably mean the human villagers instead. In other words, it really goes back to the original argument: people don't choose an alignment based on justice, they choose one based on their best interest and survival.

Animefreak17a said:


I disagree on that sure they wasn't human no more but they was still them selfs but as shiki not only there personalities but there memories was still in tacked and also we see them as they was when they was human,

Also the monk was on his feet and alive when he became a werewolf so he didn't die but transformed in to one while alive.

The doctors way of doing it was to kill every single one of them while the monk tried a different approach but was to.late because of the doctor telling everyone to kill them is the only way. The monk was a peace keeper and if things went his way then Maybe it wouldn't have turned out the way it did.

Let me ask you this then

Let say for example a few of your loved ones turned in to shiki and a mob had them and they was begging you to save them and you had a gun what would you do?

I'd save my loved ones I wouldn't care if they was shiki cause you thought you lost them but this time you don't want to lose them again then I'd shoot the mob and sneak away.

And by the way the doctor didn't even love his wife to begin with even when she was human so it was way easy for him to do it and the reason why he hesitated was because he feared her at first but got used to it. He didn't accept that his wife was dead but he didn't love her to care what he was doing to her. He even questions if he did love her which he didn't. If he shed a tear or said I'm sorry I love you then maybe I'd sympathise for him but no he decreed that they are evil and must be killed only because he says so well I disagree with him completely.

The monk to me is the hero and he could see how the humans reacted and he decided to.leave them for the shiki

I'd of been much more happy if all the humans died while trying to get away from the fire.

This anime shows us how humans are more monster as history has shown us.

BluexMage said:
Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah I know but, for Toshio at least, they now need to start feeding on others in order to survive, and the people he knew wouldn't kill someone.

I don't think Muroi "tried a different approach". He didn't try to convince anyone that the Shiki weren't evil. He just related so much to Sunako that he ended up choosing their side.
And besides, he ended up becoming a werewolf but not everyone does. Some die and some become Shiki. If people followed his method, it would lead to the same outcome Sunako wanted anyway since he basically just let them feed on him, so it's not really "his side".

And I answered this question before. Most likely I wouldn't be able to shoot my loved ones. But Toshio saw that as the easiest method to ensure a win against the Shiki and he did it to ensure the villager's survival.
And whether or not he loved his wife I couldn't tell. Sure the moments where we saw them together he didn't seem like a very loving husband, but he was failing to save the people who trusted their lives on him multiple times so that most likely causes a lot of stress. I can't really judge him because of this time period.

And I don't think the anime shows any side more cruel than the other. I think it showed both their sides equally. Neither humans nor shiki are 100% kind or 100% evil beings.

skyzblue said:
Honestly, Masao, Tatsumi and Megumi are the better contestants.
I don't hate Muroi, rather disappointed with him as a character. His lack of initiative to go against Toshio is what makes him useless as a character.

Animefreak17a said:

For me no he isn't the worst character in the series ..........It's the doctor who is the worsted;
...
fucking ass hole deserves to die what he did to his wife and among other things