The Legend of Heroes: Sen no Kiseki - Northern War Episode 8 Discussion

Secret333 said:
This episode was fine, I might even say it was good up until this point. But then they had the scene where Lavi frees herself. That scene was peak bullshit. I promised to bring this up where appropriate so here it is: Remember episode 3 when Lavi got defeated(Physically) by a random clown dude? Now she can pull her hand out of a soldier's grip, she's heavy enough to knock someone down, can kick a guy so hard his helmet is knocked and he's sent flying to a wall, and of course the last man is just standing there doing nothing as she picks up a weapon, turns around and knocks him out. You couldn't have Iseria come in and bust her out or something, because I guess that'd make too much sense. I like that they even put a gun to her back when they tell her to move, but then that gun is conveniently no longer pointed at her when she stops because we need her to escape.
I'm sorry but I don't believe that a 15 years old can do all of that. That's not stretching my suspense of disbelief, it's fucking chewing it off.

Marina2 said:

She has leveled up and gained a lot of skill and experience after ep.3  If she fight that clown again now she can easily beat him

And in this universe where a guy with sword, a girl with staff, a guy with baton can easily fight and defeat a military robot armed with automatic firearm, having gun point at you is not a problem at all. There is no need for suspense of disbelief.

And how come you don't believe that a 15 years old can do all of that when a certain purple hair girl with scythe can perform a much more amazing feat when she was younger than Lavi.

Secret333 said:
"She has leveled up"  This isn't a game. We don't have anything that would make me believe she's now capable of physicaly overpowering these 3 soldiers the way she did.

"Having a gun point at you is not a problem at all" The problem is they don't even bother to use these guns. they should hurt her at least if they don't kill, but they're just not used.

And about Renne, we know Orobouros have ways to enhance their enforcers strength, plus all the experiments she had done on her. That comparison does not work.

"There's no need for suspense of disbelief." What do you even mean? This is a fictional story. Suspense of disbelief is there by default.

Marina2 said:
 
The problem is you think her skill, her strength, and her ability will always be at the same through out the show - with zero improvement.

When you are showed that she can beat those soldiers, you should update your idea of her 'capability' as "She can NOW do that" instead of "She shouldn't be able to that"  There is no reason to believe? What does the show need to do to make you believe then? Show her in some training montage? Show her fighting with some stronger opponents than the clown? Oh, WAIT! they already did those things!. More like You just choose to not believe then.

Oh well, even if Renne example doesn't work, I can just say Estelle, Fie, and Laura can do the same or similar thing as Lavi.

Sonson7 said:
Why are you hungry up on disbelief about 15 years old doing things in trails. Like even Fie is capable of that and even did probably more than that when she was 14 and even younger during her Jaeger days. She even became notorious enough to be given the moniker slyphead, Lavi did even accomplished anything yet to be give  special monicker exept "The heroes Grandchild" which is only due to Vlad's accomplishments and not hers.
Also lore wise Laura is about just as strong as Fie and there are no enhancing shenanigans in there and just pure skill.
Even Sarah is probably already even stronger at 15 in her Jaeger days to be honest.
Also what's up with the hung up of Lavi taking blows from a highly skilled Carnival leader clown guy. Its not like she lost???
Even all the Oroborous members that you fight in game has the "oh, yes we schoolkids kinda seemingly beat them". Yes they do get beat up but "not defeated" and pull the "now I'm actually gonna get serious" and now the school kids gonna need saving from a strong character.
Like that is classic Trails trope bruh. Like what, Duvalie always gets the brunt of this trope but she actually is supposed to be stronger than those multiple fights she has to fumble into taking the Ls. Like bruh, get over it. Trails may have be labeled "good story writing" but it also does rebel with anime tropes and stuff.

Secret333 said:
Where did I say that I think her skills, strength and abilities will always be the same? All I'm advocating for is that we see her growth, or get reasons for her growth because otherwise this is just a dicrepancy in her power level.

" When you are showed that she can beat those soldiers, you should update your idea of her 'capability' as 'She can NOW do that' instead of 'She shouldn't be able to that' " You're now advocating for not questioning the show or the writing. Just believe what they show you even if it's contradictory to something they showed you earlier? I don't think you've made that argument intentionaly, but this is what we have to do if we were to believe the scene where she defeats those soldiers.

The show doesn't do what you suggest. It doesn't have a "training montage", And her fights since episode 3 are not equal to the 1 v1 she had there. She was gonna lose in ep1 if not for her comrades helping her, and she won by stabbing the monster. She defeated one monster by shooting a gun in ep4, she worked with Rean and Altina in ep5. She defeated Talion in ep7, and they were both using their weapons, and you could argue he wasn't in the right mind. None of these equal "Ok now you can physicaly, with no weapons, overpower 3 SOLDIERS, from a position where they had every advantage possible. In strength, numbers, guns, age and weight, and persumebly combat experience".

And a reminder that while we're arguing about Lavi's power level, this is not the only part that I point towards for why that scene is stupid. I guess the soldier holding her just relaxed his entire body when she suddenly stopped walking for her to be able to drag him down, with one arm, while it was in that position? Yeah, no. I guess he forgot about his gun and that his reaction speed is that of a snail that he doesn't just shoot her. I guess the other two also forgot how to pull the trigger on their guns. I guess their helmets are made of paper to not protect them from Lavi's incredible kick. Her weight alone vs theirs is a huge disadvantage. Do you believe that any of this is sensible? And no I'm not asking for pure realism, but to have some sense in the fight scenes. Which this show has proven time and time again that it doesn't have not because of any rules established but just because that's what we need to happen so it happens.

Marina2 said:

You sure very nick picking about every single details on Lavi scenes. Well, fine if that how you gonna do it, allow me to do little nick picking as well then.

Lavi was introduced as someone who is considered to be better than most of her peers. In fact, she has been appointed as their instructor. This is a foreshadow of her personal skill and ability. Lavi body have high durability. In episode 5, she fell down from high place, land on the rock with her back and suffered no major injury. She also have great acrobatic ability and strong legs - through out the show, you can see that she can jump high and many of her attack involve jumping down on her opponent to kick them or attack them with weapon. Overall, we can say that she is a lot stronger than normal people.

Now let's talk about that scene IN DETAILS.

1. Firstly, take a good note of the position of 4 people. Lavi was being held by 1 Soldier ( We will call him "A")  while other 2 of them ("B" and "C") was walking very closely behind.
 


2. Lavi, as skilled combatant, used some kind of technique to forcefully free her hand, and also made "A" who was holding her lost his balance for short duration. This sudden unexpected  action also caught B and C by surprise, delaying their response.
 



3. Then, just as "A"  managed to regain his balance and while "B" + "C" started to recover from their surprise and about to use their weapon,  Lavi, surprised them "again" by quickly jumped up to the air. This quick and surprising movement has forced them to stop what they were about to do and instinctively look up to search for her, delaying their response by maybe a second)


5. Lavi then spinning her body to increase her momentum, and fell back down on A.

 

6. Lavi used her momentum along with her strength, crushed "A" to the ground, knocked him out. While she was doing this  "B" and "C' were hesitating to shoot her because they don't want to accidentally hit "A"

 

NOTE: to be fair to these solders, 1-4  probably happened within 5-7 seconds in real time. And it's not that these solders have snailed reaction but Lavi just moved too fast for them to react and when they finally reacted Lavi already make next quick move to surprise them again 


5. After she knocked "A" out, Lavi quickly spin her body, increase her momentum, and made super kick on the neck of nearby "B". The powerful blunt impact was strong enough to send the force through his helmets, knocking him out.






6. Then she quickly took B weapon, and rush to C, who was either too afraid to shoot at her way out of fear that he might hit "B" (Let me remind you that they were standing very close to each other) or maybe he was stunned by how the event quickly unfolded before his eyes. In any case, "C" was too slow to make his moment and allow Lavi to make a clean hit on him, knocking him out.

 



 

That concludes my explanation.

.................................................

There is no reason to believe that a three random soldiers/bodyguard (who have never showed how strong or skilled they are) are physically stronger or more skilled than Lavi, an established character that we have seen in many fight throughout the show and have in-story evidence to support her ability.

Raytheon_Thunder said:
Yeah. This is the episode that I'm starting to have an issue with the series. Disappointed in the direction they went with Glark.

Secret333 said:
Man, that visual of the sky cast felt like some cheap fanservice. Like, the soldiers don't know them and wouldn't have flashbacks showing them so it's just the show going "REMEMBER THEM???"

I liked Glark's speach. He brings up the things that would get the people in the audience on his side. Stirs their emotions and uses their patriotism to mask the fact that he only gave them half answers. If anyone poked into his speach a little bit they would find his claims questionable. But I believe that people would get tricked by his promises.The one thing I didn't like is, as I said last episode, everyone remembers Vlad as a hero? nobody remembers that he hired a child to kill Valestein, another hero before abandoning the Jaegers? I guess everyone is willfully ignoring that part of his history.

Rogan questions Glark, but understands that he's not gonna reveal where he got the archiasms from. I like that that's not said but can be inferred. Glark's power trip feels a bit sudden. Like, chill the fuck out, mate. At least wait until you actually defeated Osbourne before you become him. Man still lives in the boonies and is already talking big about invading the world. Grandiose dilusions, the man has. No doubt pushed by Jayna.

I like the direction they're taking Lavi. It seems like her arch is understanding what being a hero really means. She seems like she's in the same position as Rean, being hailed as a hero. But while Rean didn't want anything to do with that title, she was pushed into using it to boost morale. And she seems like she's making herself believe that that's what she wants. What's gonna follow next is a huge serving of reality check for her, and she'll probably understand that Rean is a true hero when we get to what we know will happen.

Again, I like them calling back to Iseria's advice to Lavi in episode 6 when she told her to use it to her advantage instead of getting used. Things like that bring meaning to previous conversations.

I don't like Glark declaring his evil plans of desposing of Lavi in front of a soldier. Even if he doesn't know he's one of her friends he's still an outsider who has no business being here.

This episode was fine, I might even say it was good up until this point. But then they had the scene where Lavi frees herself. That scene was peak bullshit. I promised to bring this up where appropriate so here it is: Remember episode 3 when Lavi got defeated(Physically) by a random clown dude? Now she can pull her hand out of a soldier's grip, she's heavy enough to knock someone down, can kick a guy so hard his helmet is knocked and he's sent flying to a wall, and of course the last man is just standing there doing nothing as she picks up a weapon, turns around and knocks him out. You couldn't have Iseria come in and bust her out or something, because I guess that'd make too much sense. I like that they even put a gun to her back when they tell her to move, but then that gun is conveniently no longer pointed at her when she stops because we need her to escape.
I'm sorry but I don't believe that a 15 years old can do all of that. That's not stretching my suspense of disbelief, it's fucking chewing it off.

Master Glark is done. Now it's time to know what Jayna's plan is all about. And what the hell Talion is doing beside her.

Also, shoutout to that one voice actor who goes "Uwu! Mastaa Glark!" 34 seconds into the episode. That delivery had mme in stitches.