Totsukuni no Shoujo Chapter 53 Discussion

What did you think of this chapter?

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Nov 9, 2021 11:32 AM

Tsarko

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Feb 2017

2713

Here it is, the end.

I am not really sure what is the message. It feels like there should be one but I can't find it no matter how hard I look. This bothers me a lot. The story has been interesting throughout, atmosphere and art was superb, characters were themselves the whole time, worldbuilding was always interesting and consistent and the story doesn't have plot holes that I can think of, but even then it feels like it's lacking something, something major. I guess that is a message, purpose of the story. With ending like this it feels like the story didn't really accomplish anything. What's the moral of the story? If anyone has some intersting inerpretation of it, please enlighten me!

Anyway, while the ending feels lacking in a big way, it didn't ruin the manga for me. It was very good and I am glad I've been following it these past couple of years. But in the end it didn't manage to make itself into something great and truly special

Nov 10, 2021 9:16 PM

Ittan_Momen

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May 2018

794

The ending was a bit anticlimactic for me.

I would have liked to have known more about Mother, and how the two worlds split.

I take it that Albert/Sensei died. That's unfortunate and unfair.

"Are you intoxicated, or just insane?"

Nov 15, 2021 5:48 AM

thedestroyership

Offline

Nov 2019

wow what a damn shame, series would have been an easy 10/10 if not for the bullshit ending.

"You've noticed the soul is far more damaged than it once was?" ~ chapter 51, page 5.
NO, fuck off. I've seen what happens to stories when they start allowing characters to revive AND THEN copout by claiming that revivals have limitations.

Chapter 46 was a fucking death sentence for the story. We could have had a bitter sweet ending where Shiva lives and albert treeifies himself or Albert lives and he cant stop shiva from eventually turning into a tree but still loves her till the end. The ending could at least impart the message of "love transcends all boundaries" or "till death do us part".

But noooooo, we can't have a conventional ending and we need an artsty pansy fucking farty ending. AND BOTH HAVE TO BECOME TREES. So the only take away i have is: dying is stupid just use black magic and do soul transfers constantly to skirt death.

Even fucking fire punch had a better ending message. 4/10

Nov 24, 2021 1:45 AM

Lpopo4lyfe

Offline

Mar 2019

I struggle to find what the overall theming or message of the story was and ultimately though things were planned in advance, the final stretch was extremely convoluted with unnecessary twists.

And I feel like we still never got much of an explanation on Mother or the lore?

Most of all though, wasn’t Shiva a baby that her aunt found? And wasn’t there the twist near the end that Albert was actually Shiva’s real father? Or maybe I misinterpreted the latter somehow, but the former is still a big thing.

So then I don’t see how this business about her being a black child to start with and Albert’s soul works at all.

Also, what happened in the end? I get the sense that Albert and Shiva are together again in peace but I don’t see how that’s even possible. If Albert gave his soul AGAIN, then he should be a vessel again that would turn into a tree, right? It all just became so unnecessarily messy and contrived...

Nov 25, 2021 3:23 AM

CriticalShock

Offline

Jul 2011

This was a great manga up until chapter 40 when the story started to get more and more convoluted and contrived. I really dislike the plot twist of Shiva being Albert's soul, it's so incredibly stupid. This ending sucks so much I hope we get an anime original ending.

Nov 27, 2021 7:03 PM

xspookydarknessx

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Oct 2012

327

Not entirely sure how to feel about that ending.

Nov 28, 2021 5:42 AM

Rickydory123

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Dec 2016

1408

The ending was too confusing.

At some point because of how they were showing it I came to think that Shiva would be Albert's real child that the auntie found.

When that one black child appeared and explained everything, the whole story became messy. If Shiva was a form that was created from Albert's soul then who was the child that Auntie found in the forest? Is it like, when the black child stole Albert's soul, did the soul get transferred to a child that was about to be born to different parents...? In the end is it like Shiva is Albert and Albert is Shiva, together they are one...?

Everything seemed to get normal in the end, but what did Albert choose? If he gave back his soul to bring back Shiva then doing so would turn him into an empty black child which would become a tree. But if he chose the latter then I guess him living happily with Shiva in the end was all just an imagination.

It was still really beautiful. But more detailed and unambiguous explanations would've been better.

Overall 8/10

Rickydory123Nov 28, 2021 6:02 AM

Dec 2, 2021 12:49 AM

samspot8r8s

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Jul 2011

112

Open endings are frustrating, but I got the impression from the very beginning that this story would lead to one so I'm not upset. It was a beautiful and melancholy journey. In the end, I've always loved endings that haunt me a little bit afterwards.

I don't exactly understand the teacher’s explanation of what the curse was, but I do at least think I get the theming. The imagery of them holding the flower crown helped me with my interpretation. Hope and despair are connected. The barrier between the two can not be understood without knowing the opposite. Or otherwise, you need to know one two know the other.
At the same time that all things end, and all things are continuos. Though they sometimes may continue in different forms.

The humans begin to move on as a society -some accepting and some rejecting life within the walls. Why?
Teacher and Shiva found love for each other, and that love and desire to continue connecting lead them to straddle that barrier together in contentment. Or at least something close to it. Maybe that barrierer is more of an entwinment, or a cycle than a border. Maybe also, there's a lesson in not obsessing over the contrasts, and instead trying to see them as parts of a whole.

Why was the author's explanation so vague?
The same goes for there being a line between innocence and omniscience. Feeling content and wishing for something more. Its deliberate that we’re left without a perfect answer. In the end, us as readers have to dance Around that barrier, and make our conclusions- or never arrive at one. It would be a little silly for us to have a perfect explanation in a story with such tightroped themes.

samspot8r8sDec 21, 2022 9:59 PM

Dec 18, 2021 6:17 PM

TheMangaManiac

Offline

Jul 2010

1741

I broke my brain reading this. I need to re-read it in one sitting, because the second half is too convoluted. Beautiful, yet confusing. Maybe I am just dumb. Still I rate this very high, because I really liked it and the atmosphere in like nothing else I've read before.

Dec 27, 2021 9:02 PM

#10

Snakering

Offline

Oct 2011

346

@Lpopo4lyfe @Rickydory123
Here’s what I’m thinking about Shiva being a found by her aunt as a baby:

I think when the original goat black child (in the dress, Shiva’s ‘vessel’) first stole Albert’s soul, that stolen soul turned her into something new. It basically turned her into an actual human—a complete person created from a black child’s body + a soul (from Albert). For the first time since the gods fought and the curse started, the two halves of soul and body were reunited in this one creature, Shiva. And even though I don’t really get why, I’m guessing that being turned human meant that Shiva started as a baby even though she wasn’t born from anyone. (I think volume 9 has the priest mentioning how she has no parents—I brushed that off at first because I assumed they were just dead, but now I think she never had parents. She was created rather than truly born, and I guess that creation gave her a new identity as Shiva—one that could create new memories and had its own personality.)

What I don’t fully understand is why then Albert is just… a strange black child forever? Like even after getting his soul back, and keeping a piece of the black child (the goat’s skull), he stays a goat. He didn’t turn back into a person, which doesn’t seem consistent with the narrative (or my interpretation of it anyway). But the original goat black child/Shiva’s vessel did kind of address it (in volume 11 she says something about how there’s no guarantee she could go back to being Shiva even if the soul is given back to her because life isn’t predictable). Even though I don’t like that answer, I’m willing to go with “Albert’s still a goat, even though he has both a soul and a part of a black child’s body, because there’s just no way to know how life will go.”

I *also* think Shiva resembles Albert’s kid because she’s part of his soul. So maybe he projects onto her? Like, his subconscious soul is what shaped her into resembling his child?

Overall I do like this story but the lack of clear answer on Albert’s choice at the end bothers me. It feels like an easy way out to not have to show the decision. I personally read it as Albert has sort of a split personality at the end—Shiva is within him (hence why we never see her again) and also he talks with her. But I don’t really like that interpretation. I think I can respect an open ending, and I wouldn’t have wanted this story to tie up its loose ends too neatly, but personally this final volume didn’t really work for me.

Jan 2, 2022 8:08 PM

#11

animejas

Offline

Jul 2017

6782

Finally read the final 2 volumes today after prolonging it for so long and yeah, the conclusion did some parts well but felt a bit messy overall and only left many questions hanging in the air. For a series I had at that 9.5-10 level for the first 9 volumes, I expected better and more tighter writing, even another volume to flesh it out in a better, less open-ended manner but alas, the series is over anyway. Out of my favorites list, and I'd give it an 7/10 overall now.

It's still good, but the ending left a lot to be desired for me and didn't do the manga's writing and characters enough justice to be higher than that. Not the worst ending by any means though since there were good moments to this and it is interesting to think about, but too many missing gaps were left open in my opinion for a final volume to a mostly well-thought out series with a convoluted feel to the approach too.

animejasJan 3, 2022 6:47 AM

Jan 28, 2022 9:55 AM

#12

Sharmat_00

Offline

Jan 2018

352

I thought I had this series figured out by the time I had read half of it. I was surprised to see the depth given to the latter half. I didnt at all expect anything in the last half of the series.

Personally I love tragic endings. So it was quite nice to see them both find a peaceful end to their lives. No doubt either one would have had no point to live without the other.

I think the point of this series is a sort of tranquil balance of nature. That I find beautiful. Quite happy to see it didnt do the generic light vs dark thing as there are good and bad caveats to each side of nature.

This manga is quite beautiful and I plan to buy the hardcover books when they start releasing in june. (Even though I already have the paperbacks)

He died doing what he wanted, no matter what, right? I bet he was happy.

Good luck with berserk Kouji Mori, you'll need all the help you can get. We believe in you.

Feb 9, 2022 3:04 PM

#13

TristanSylvain

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Oct 2014

Author: *creates an open ending*
MAL nerds: "Hurr durr I can't interpret it".

Keep in mind most of you got the cultural gap. Even if the general aesthetic seems like european, thematics into this story can make a lot of sense for an asiatic (concepts being symbiotic, etc).

It's okay to not fully getting the picture, just focus on your interpretation and enjoy a creation that will be stuck in your mind for the next decade and more.

Feb 11, 2022 9:12 AM

#14

Edaniel

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Nov 2009

149

Wow, so mush hate in the comment section...
The manga is truly beautiful and does not deserve such treatment.

Mar 8, 2022 8:54 AM

#15

sarazanmai

Offline

Mar 2019

Wow. I had no idea people this dense read works this emotive.
For me, the story was a metaphor for realizing you've fallen in love with an idea of a person, a projection of yourself, and then having to choose whether you actually care for the person beyond the projection and for the moments you've shared, or you need to move on.

May 1, 2022 6:24 AM

#16

dababu

Offline

Aug 2020

So I've recently finished the manga and I honestly thoroughly enjoyed the ending. I spent my time reading each panel a bit carefully and took into account the wording, panels presented, and conflicting ideologies present mixed with some imagery. Let me elaborate as to what I'm saying regarding that.

So first and foremost, basic stuff out of the way. We must note the contrast between the head priest (also referred to as the father) and the mother. Humans have longer and more sustainable life spans than vessels. Vessels are not physically sustainable and will break down over time. Conversely, the mother is a treasure trove of pure souls it seems. The black child (and other more sustainable vessels) are supposed to take human souls and return them to the hole of the mother. Most vessels that form from the infection aren't sustainable and turn into trees before reaching the mother. This creates a back and forth where humanity and the black creatures try to sway souls and physical life span in their favor creating a dichotomy of outside and inside; father and mother.

Ok, so that's the world-building element out of the way now onto characters. So now let's talk about Albert and Shiva. Albert was dying and found by the black child in his current state. The reason he was dying in the first place was due to the fact he sacrificed himself so his wife and child could escape from a group of townspeople. The black child's job as a vessel is simply to bring souls to the mother, nothing more or less, and eventually decay away and perish. However, in that moment of seeing Albert dying on the ground, something kicked into the black child, and she did the strangest thing. She split Albert's soul and broke off a piece of her (her head) and put it on Albert. This causes Albert to lose all his memories. The reason the black child does this is a key theme I will get to later, but just keep in mind the idea of "love" or "heart". Shiva is eventually found by the teacher (Albert)

This led to the black child developing a human form that the child had no full autonomy over despite being conscious of it, this is Shiva. Mind you vessels are kinda very automated and follow a sole purpose, but with a soul, they gain a level of personal consciousness that doesn't function with the bare purpose of a vessel which is delivering souls to the mother. Shiva is eventually found by teacher (Albert).

Side note, Shiva is highly resistant to the curse because she is a direct "child" of the mother. Children of the mother are essentially vessels directly made by mother (or something of the sort) that are more durable and resistant to the curse, in that they can more consistently deliver souls to mother instead of becoming trees.Eventually, Shiva gets the other half of the soul which makes Teacher/Albert begin to slowly become a tree as without a soul vessels just become trees. Shiva then gives back all the soul to teacher which also begins to make Albert recover his memories of his past life. The black child retakes her shape with minimal soul in them and offers an ultimatum to Albert, considering the degradation of the small amount of soul that's left. Keep the soul and die with the few days he has left with his memories of his past life, or risk his soul on the black child in hopes of reforming Shiva.
The Black child claims Shiva is not a real being, but this is false, Shiva is a separate consciousness from the black child that formed as a result of the soul. The black child essentially spectates Shiva from the first-person point of view when Shiva is the primary consciousness.

TLDR: Ok now all that stuff above is context, you can skip that if you want to just for this section. The black child essentially gets overtaken by a small part in them that remains of Shiva which makes them go back to Albert in the semi-final chapter. The black child offers Albert the same ultimatum of giving her the soul and becoming Shiva or dying with his final moments.

Essential Panel details: This leads Albert to undergo a personal journey where he goes through the 3 key stages in his life with Shiva next to him. His life before ever becoming a curse with his old family (notable when there's a child with short hair and a wife), his period of depression which is him alone, and his life with Shiva. The panels flash through these as he's pondering what he values the most. A lot of people question why Shiva isn't in the frame, and the reason I believe this is the case is not because of an ambiguous ending. However, the Author actively wants the reader to note the panels being presented, the final panel of the entire manga, and the actual cover of the 11th novel and discover for themselves the themes being presented more indirectly with the final panel confirming them. A bunch of contrasting words show up to further the dichotomy of mother/father and inside/outside toward the end as I mentioned prior in how the two worlds contrast each other.

However, the key thing that both worlds share is "heart" and a genuine form of love. It's why the black child saved Albert from death, to begin with, despite it not being in line with the black child's mission. This one quintessential element is what leads to the last panel, Albert and Shiva are both talking about memories and all and both hold onto a garland. They're both here right now and the ultimatum of the black child getting the soul, or Albert keeping the soul and being alone in his last moments and memories is completely rejected.

Instead, genuine love between two beings has the two share the soul in perfect harmony laying in the grass and mutually being able to express themselves in their purest selves, memories, physical forms, everything all thanks to love. And they express those final moments either A until the soul runs out and they mutually die, or B they continue living on and share the soul for a little while longer. The reasoning for B is because of the fact they're sharing the soul, which creates a more stable vessel that's able to keep the soul intact, but that's unknown information.The key element that showed ALL of this in the original manga chapter was the final panel, which showed Albert/father and Shiva sharing a garland laying in the pastures. But some people were still uncertain about the ending, so the author just straight up made the cover of the 11th novel that very panel, just further out to show them in full view.

I do agree the ending isn't perfect, it's a bit messy and disjointed, but man. That reveal, it hits you when you see it. Seeing that last panel flash and the two beings rejecting the philosophies of dichotomy and division that this world propagates. Instead, they share their last moments as genuinely as they can together with whatever soul they have left. Through a form of love unlike any other in this story's world.

dababuMay 2, 2022 1:02 PM

Dec 10, 2022 1:40 AM

#17

TitanInsane

Offline

May 2020

1987

Well, reading the posts above have a bit more clarity to the ending but man am I not satisfied.

My personal takeaway from the ending is that it’s a message about how life can’t have happiness without suffering or at least that’s what I got from Albert’s last few lines.

Regardless, I feel like the story of the manga is a bit of a letdown. It seemed like it was building towards something but then it just.. ends.

Jul 31, 2023 2:00 AM

#18

sulfuricacid

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Oct 2019

so heartbreaking i hate and love it at the same time

Aug 18, 2023 11:00 PM

#19

Jonas-K

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Mar 2019

3323

This ending was very confusing, for me he didn't return Shiva's soul and this conversation he was having with her was going on in his head, that's why she didn't appear in any scene.

him lying in the snow made me believe he was just waiting for the moment to turn into a tree, at least that's what I interpreted.

It's far from the ending I was hoping for, but that's what made sense to me.

9/10

Mar 10, 8:01 AM

#20

Rivacoop

Offline

Jun 2020

166

Reply to Jonas-K

@Jonas-K This is what I thought as well, Shiva resided inside him and all his conversations were in his head, but the last panel was really confusing because it showed both of them holding the crown of flowers.

May 25, 10:04 PM

#21

Rhae

Offline

Aug 2018

17117

I don't know how I feel about this...

I was so on board that Shiva was truly the Teacher's, Albert's, daughter... but after that plot twist chapters ago... it was actually a black child stealing his fading soul and taking on the form of Shiva because it's basically part of Albert's soul. His fragment of his soul decided to take the form of Shiva.

Right?

So... I don't totally get the message. Is it to accept the other half to become one? Is it to love yourself and to never lose hope? Is it the idea to move on and not dwell on the past? Am I supposed to look at Shiva as some sort of mini Albert? Is it a "love" story between an outsider and Albert, but actually Shiva is just a part of him in the first place? Urgh, my head hurts...

I'm kinda sad now. So, this basically means that his wife and child are either dead, turned into black ones, or then turned into trees, correct?

And...

About the lore of the Mother, there's still no concrete explanation. Does the curse only affect this region? What about other areas, countries, continents? Assuming it's Earth like or even Earth in another timeline.

What happened to his family? What will the kingdom do now? Will either of the two gods get their own bodies and souls back respectively? Is Shiva basically what happens when either god gets their form back?

So many questions. But it's a bittersweet and strange ending for sure. This is why I hate myself. Sometimes I overthink and overquestion manga that are beautiful, but I sometimes can't help myself.

Nov 28, 1:42 PM

#22

menacce

Offline

Jan 2022

312

after reading what @dababu had to say I think I understand the ending more or less, but it still leaves me wondering what happened to Albert's family ;-; they just disappeared and we never got an explanation or even any hints of where they might be

anyways I enjoyed the story up until chapter 51 or so, after which everything just got way too messy... but still I think it was great overall, 9/10

you know it's dark outside, when you go outside, and it's dark. -_-

check out my profile btw

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