Topic: sexualised teens and children in anime what do you think

Feb 27, 2015 5:49 PM

lpf

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Aug 2010

1056

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mosaic_Mar 13, 2015 2:13 PM

Feb 27, 2015 5:57 PM

danz

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Jan 2009

736

It's ok. Most ppl have an inner pedo because why not. Girls can usually conceive with 11 or 12 idk, so it's kinda in the nature of men to be attracted by young girls. As long as only muh 2D waifu (or all sorts of merch) gets violated most societies are fine with it (I heard the brits handle things... differently?).

danzFeb 27, 2015 6:04 PM

Feb 27, 2015 5:58 PM

mosaic_

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Jan 2012

109

Dunno, shota doujins are cool.

Feb 28, 2015 2:54 AM

Stellio

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Feb 2012

311

Boku no picu scarred me for life

Mar 2, 2015 6:03 PM

wasteman

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Apr 2014

152

This is actually quite relevant to me right now because as I watch Bakemonogatari, I wonder if I am actually enjoying it, or if I think it's just some show pandering to different fetishes, namely the lolicon crowd.

That was a long and horribly written sentence

Mar 2, 2015 8:04 PM

Stellio

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Feb 2012

311

JediMindTricks said:
This is actually quite relevant to me right now because as I watch Bakemonogatari, I wonder if I am actually enjoying it, or if I think it's just some show pandering to different fetishes, namely the lolicon crowd.

That was a long and horribly written sentence

Its k

I wonder the same sometimes. But in all honesty nudity and appeasing the fans with constant screen time of a certain character is a subject to discuss itself.

In Monogatari's case, rarely is the above utilized in a trashy way. In a previous episodic post I did at moe alternative I even likened them to mystical, alluring creatures of phantasmic sorts: the charm that each female presents is real, and the goddess like aura each of them give off is more than just appeasing the fans. Its artsy and entrancing stuff, ya know

Mar 3, 2015 4:18 AM

eririri

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Oct 2012

214

topic: boku no pico scarred stellio fro life. should i watch it

Mar 3, 2015 3:46 PM

wasteman

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Apr 2014

152

Stellio said:

Yeah I mean it's lovely artistically speaking, but Hachikuji and Sengoku have made me kind of uncomfortable (more so Sengoku). To me it feels like each female character is being marketed to people with different interests. I may be wrong but that's just the vibe I'm getting. Sorry if I'm being repetitive.

Also a youtuber whose content I really enjoy named DouchebagChocolat did a video on this topic a while back. He mentioned bake, saying he loved the series but the lolicon aspect made him uncomfortable. His main point in the video was that it's dangerous to say "they're just fictional characters so it's okay", and I agree. What do you all think?

Mar 3, 2015 4:17 PM

NotDolphy

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Mar 2012

521

Monogatari seems like it's more Nisio writing things that he'd want to read to me, not really pandering to markets. Probably a weird fine line to some and I doubt it makes much difference to others, but that's my take on it. For me personally though, it doesn't make much of a difference either way as long as I find it funny or interesting, which I generally do for the series. Definitely agree with the "just fictional characters" thing, but I can see why it'd make others uncomfortable.

Also Boku no Pico is hella tame.

Mar 3, 2015 4:36 PM

#10

iSuckAtWriting

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Oct 2010

190

I don't have a beef with sexualized characters in general unless it gets really extreme and I'm not looking for it (basically hentai). Sexualization only really bothers me when it's less 'sexual comedy' and more 'masturbatory fantasy.'

Also Sono Hanabira is objectively the best hentai. Why haven't you watched it yet.

Mar 7, 2015 2:58 AM

#11

mugi

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Nov 2009

224

Monogatari seems more sexualized in the anime by SHAFT since they add a ton of focus on bodies and such in the anime where in the books it's usually just a remark mostly for comedic value or characteristics (fanservice/ecchi vs PLOT). Also Bakemono started as kind of a joke with all the harem elements with the MC initially trying to deny that this is the kind of story he's part in (or creating). It's more apparent to be a running gag in the novels. The characters that are actually in uncomfortable situations for us are the sisters and Nadeko but they are around the age f 14-16 throughout the series with Araragi being 2-3 years older (and a brother). Mayoi is around 22 and Shinobu 300+ and her first real feature was in Kizu, only later in Nise is when she became the heavily leeched after loli but the anime skipped to that part which already referenced SHAFTS sexualization of Bakemono in the Nise novels.
Also that is mostly exclusive to Monogatari and even then mostly to books that feature Koyomi as narrator. Most of the metric ton of Nisio's releases aren't like that at all.
But isn't focusing on it as an example more like cherry picking? I've made this argument also when people tend to bring up other point like that (so many light novel adaptations and they're the same and suck ect). I'd like to ask someone who proposed ideas like that to actually check out all releases and make the math of the ratio of anime that contain certain content the ones that don't and they tell me which is the most dominant and why it matters.

But sexualization in japan is different. The legal age is dependent on the region and I believe at least on paper, it might even be 13 nationally but gets restricted by each area individually. Tokyo for examples has a big sex business going on to compensate for that where seemingly school girls give you a handjob for example. Because that doesn't count as intercourse.
On the other side, illegal sexual implication of underage characters is actually now heavily restricted by law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_youth_ordinance_bill#Bill_156

Still, in Tokyo and especially electric town, you'll see that sex is is heavily used for advertisement. But it's not just anime, just regular movie promotion are often done by ladies is non-clothing. That is for movies that aren't related to sex at all.
In general there is more "openness" towards it in mainstream media and the public eye, especially with modern media and in Tokyo compared to the west, where we are meant to be ashamed of our bodies and sex. Of course this is kind of a different topic when it comes to underage people but that is just as forbidden and shunned in japan as everywhere else. I wonder at what age people start to actually believe that children aren't sexually active, and like people already mentioned, it's fiction. We can brutally murder children in movies, books and some games now. Sure it's bad and a "crime" but so is child abuse and there are laws for it. Depicting teens or even kids being at it with no one above 18 (or a certain age range above the kid) feels wrong though, sure. Kids with kids should be okay though, even drawing or writing about it. Don't film kids though. All those h doujinshi and even some anime that are being sold sometimes depict or "glorify" child abuse/sex with minor by and adult though, which seems just wrong. But again, it's anime.

Why it's seems so prominent in anime is our own fault for watching more anime related stuff than regular people. We watch or at least are aware of every seasonal anime and then complain about ecchi anime even though that was release for a certain demographic usually on TV on a special program on a special time. Sure it's prominent especially in shounen anime but that's probably why some of them are popular in the first place.
I'd advise anyone to check out the males and females in western comics especially DC and Marvel and tell me that they aren't designed for sex. Of course they are usually adults but there are exception like Batgirl, Supergirl and whoever (they are still above 16 I guess).

The average japanese watched less than most people in this club. The cycle seems obvious, since the sexualization of underage girls comes from the reaction to cute young girls in anime (Ghibli) and the combination that was made with the R rated anime of the 80's and 90's. Specifically manga "enjoyed" more freedom back then so depicting actually naked teens was normal (and to be honest also often part of older japanese culture, seeing how often public baths were used in older anime).
At this point, anime and manga are written and drawn by people who grew up with that and magazines tend to pick up anything remotely of "quality", so otaku and fetishists tend to get publicist now more than ever. It's not just sexualization for the sake of sex though, nowadays it's usually used as bad attempts at writing comedy and and struggle to prevent oneself from drawing boobs (the power of the pen).
You can almost naked "idols" on regular shounen magazines covers or find magazine like a shounen jump but just for porn. There are multiple magazines that just release weekly or monthly h manga.
Also drawing has become so poplar globally and has been in Japan for decades. So there are just a lot of people with the power of the pen to draw what they want, and there are ways to distribute them legally, or in a way that doesn't cause trouble. Just a lot of people with a lot of fantasies, free time and the ability to draw.

mugiMar 8, 2015 12:07 AM

Mar 10, 2015 3:54 PM

#12

Rqt

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Oct 2013

287

I personally think it's bad. I have no problems with the occasional panty shot but when a series becomes pretty much based around it's fanservice I can't stand it, because quality is generally sacrificed for making content that is highly sexual. I preferred the older, 'subtle' fanservice compared to the prevalent fanservice in today's anime because I honestly think it's now detracting from a series quality in an attempt to sell BluRays.

Mar 11, 2015 4:34 PM

#13

DarkAdoniis

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Apr 2012

@Mugi: I admit that I don't really get your point.

The characters that are actually in uncomfortable situations for us are the sisters and Nadeko but they are around the age f 14-16 throughout the series with Araragi being 2-3 years older (and a brother). Mayoi is around 22 and Shinobu 300+ and her first real feature was in Kizu

I don't really think it is a relevant argument. Like, you show me a doujin that you enjoyed where a female baby is raped with a stick. I insult you consequently and you answer me "hey she is a vampire, she is 200 years old in reality !!! It's OK.". WHO CARES ? NO, IT'S NOT.
(it reminds me of City Hunter, when Ryo instantly lost his boner because he learned that the "hot mature chick in the photo" is 16 years old, claiming that he's not a lolicon. It doesn't really work that way :'D).
But anyway, I guess people talked about Monogatari mostly because it is one of the most popular anime with a consequent amount of loli-fanservice in it ? (and well depicted)

On the other side, illegal sexual implication of underage characters is actually now heavily restricted by law.

I don't really get why are you saying "heavily" here when it is REALLY laxist law relatively to other countries one's :o.

We can brutally murder children in movies, books and some games now. Sure it's bad and a "crime" but so is child abuse and there are laws for it. Depicting teens or even kids being at it with no one above 18 (or a certain age range above the kid) feels wrong though, sure. Kids with kids should be okay though, even drawing or writing about it. Don't film kids though. All those h doujinshi and even some anime that are being sold sometimes depict or "glorify" child abuse/sex with minor by and adult though, which seems just wrong. But again, it's anime.

Well, it's cultural. I don't really know any country where child violence is on the same "train" as child sex (well, I admite that I don't know any games or movie depicting explicitly child massacre).

Then, I think you're not asking the good questions. For example, you're filming a movie and you know that two children will have sex for whatever indisputable reason in your scenario, should you depict the scene ? Would it change something if you just heavily imply it ?
You see that the real problem is the purpose, and here, the main purpose of showing sexualized children is to sexually arouse the spectator, not just depicting it for an artistic/realistic purpose.
So, yes, I think it is REALLY disturbing that producers/doujin artists try to sexually arouse the spectator with a sexually minor person or a person which seems to be a minor (in France, according to a case where a guy sold a Twin Angels' DVD, they do not do the difference, idk for britain ), and I don't think this fact is disputed in Japan either ? Like, we don't see a lot of people saying "what, you're masturbating to underage girls ? It's ok, you're a normal person, the real question is : WHO WOULDN'T ??" ? But, I don't have any data on the 'social acceptation of lolicons in Japan" so I tried to guess with the mangas/anime I saw and read :(.

For the rest, once again, I don't understand your point o_o.

By the way, someone told me one day that the "lolicon movement" was tolerated at start by the government because it helped canalizing the pedophiles and then, as the Japan has now the world's lowest criminal rate, it became unnecessary to keep the toleration on, if someone has maybe a source...

DarkAdoniisMar 11, 2015 4:39 PM

Mar 12, 2015 4:44 AM

#14

mugi

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Nov 2009

224

>I don't really think it is a relevant argument. Like, you show me a doujin that you enjoyed where a female baby is raped with a stick. I insult you consequently and you answer me "hey she is a vampire, she is 200 years old in reality !!! It's OK.". WHO CARES ? NO, IT'S NOT.
(it reminds me of City Hunter, when Ryo instantly lost his boner because he learned that the "hot mature chick in the photo" is 16 years old, claiming that he's not a lolicon. It doesn't really work that way :'D).

If you meet a person who's and adult but looks like a child for whatever reason, would tell them it's wrong to be attracted to them? Also what has a 16 year old to do with a lolicon?
And let's stick to a certain age and logic... A baby obviously can't defend itself and you also brought up rape in the first place. We're talking about people who are old enough and in a state of mind for them to participate in whatever in full consciousness. That's why laws for legal sex for certain age groups have implemented in the first place, to apparently prevent abusing a minor from doing something they might regret because they didn't know better. An adult can't engage with a teen or younger because they are probably "abusing" them, taking advantage of their lack of awareness or whatever (I can't phrase it better).
And pedophilia is exclusively about the age not the appearance. (I'm aware it's not that easy to differentiate between the two factors so easily since the appearance obviously plays a part in being underage). I think there's a documentary about that http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2072045/

But that's a bit off-topic at this other than trying to figure out why people think it's wrong or bad to depict ecchi, fanservice, lolis and whatnot. But that's kind of for everyone to decide for themselves. If the intention of the writer was just to cater to these things, like "I love boobs, you love boobs, have boobs". Then a more critical viewer doesn't take it very positively, because like Rqt said, the focus of the writing wasn't good writing then (unless it's a real masterpiece of a poem about boobs).

>But anyway, I guess people talked about Monogatari mostly because it is one of the most popular anime with a consequent amount of loli-fanservice in it ? (and well depicted)

Monogatari is good example though because it's obviously written with "Lolita" in mind...

>I don't really get why are you saying "heavily" here when it is REALLY laxist law relatively to other countries one's :o.

What? The actual child abuse laws are the same in Japan, plus the Tokyo Bill in Japan restricted what can be "officially" depicted. What people draw in their closet and release on the (doujinshi) is done globally (and the laws is pretty much only about DVDs and books). The reason why you don't see the current stuff from TV anime in the US for example is because of the TV networks self imposed restrictions to prevent outcries (it's all about the ratings)

>For the rest, once again, I don't understand your point o_o.

Most of my post was about trying to figure out how the present sexualization of teens ect became to be in anime and why it's so accepted/endorsed;
The industry bred an high amount of otaku, which is not the average Japanese/anime viewer, and lives of them. It started when anime and manga enjoyed enough freedom to display sex of any kind, then the moe culture started pretty early where cute girls where endorsed. Anime and Manga became an expensive niche "hobby" and sex sells. The same way idols are being produced, anime is marketed to mostly otaku nowadays that want to "collect" all these girls. But the problem is that this "interest" creeped itself onto the anime producers as well, or rather the people interested and "talented" enough to produce anime and manga often have that mentality. Plus it became rather easy to become publicist nowadays in manga magazines as well as light novels. It's enough to make some "comedy" about boobs and whatnot to get a position in the industry now.

And I was saying that most of "our" watching/reading behavior is as extensive as an otaku's but without being as invested in it (since we don't pay a dime). Most people here watched and/or read 200+ anime and manga and nowadays follow each and every seasonal release. So we're more aware of the amount of whatever depicted in anime unlike the average viewer who just picks 2-3 shows on TV and follows them. People on MAL usually don't take this and demographics into consideration. That's why you see elitists rambling about every LN announcement over and over again. But who does that with any other medium? Following every single release of music and ranting about everything that doesn't appeal to you, as if everything should.

mugiMar 12, 2015 5:42 AM

Mar 12, 2015 6:19 AM

#15

lpf

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Aug 2010

1056

When I nominated this topic, I didn't so much have in mind the problem of the quantity of nudity in a given series as I really was thinking of the age of the characters. Take a series you like that already contains suggestive shots, change the sexualised characters into teens/preteens -- how do you react?

It's a touchy subject, isn't it? Because I know at least a few people whose moral firewalls go out of control on this issue. A friend of mine's pretty adamant about certain series being repulsive and his opinion being backed by most "normal people".

To this day I have seen no mind gymnastics even remotely convincing in proving others wrong for enjoying shota/loli fanservice.

Mar 12, 2015 8:16 AM

#16

mugi

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Nov 2009

224

> To this day I have seen no mind gymnastics even remotely convincing in proving others wrong for enjoying shota/loli fanservice.

The other side of the coin isn't as easy either since like you mentioned, it's mostly based on morals and that's a weird topic.
While I view it negatively as well, I can't really say why I feel like it's wrong or feel offended by particular stuff.
I grew up being told it's wrong, when being I kid I certainly wouldn't would want to engage with an older person. But if I wanted to, then why is it wrong? Because I'm too young to know what I'm doing and easily manipulated or abused for the adults desire? But then again, I wanted to, why is it wrong. It's just sex.
But if I had a child, then I wouldn't want them to hang out with an older person that glorifies loli/shota openly. Unless I really know that person and know why they have the view and I can evaluate what kind of person that is. Probably boils down that it's easy to sound wrong and stupid on the net, where you don't even have to act like a moron to be hated on.

But there's mostly people who like shota/loli's because they are adorable...

May sound dumb but I guess I would say if the show is good in eyes despite or even because of such content then, then go ahead. But if it clearly is the reason why something has been made in the first place with no actually merit to it (for me) then, well, screw that. gud if it's good then it's good, if it's bad then it's bad argument

I don't know why I engaged in this particular topic so much... Monogatari was mentioned
I also happen to like certain types of ecchi/fanservice/nudity, especially in older anime (probably because they're moe casual about it). Maybe for aesthetic reasons, since I like art. And people try to make nude people looks decent. Or they don't and then you know the focus wasn't to appeal which is also enjoyable.

mugiMar 12, 2015 8:37 AM

Mar 12, 2015 8:39 AM

#17

mosaic_

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Jan 2012

109

I never did and I currently still never have any problems with shota (or loli) sexual material (mostly doujins) and I really don't know how to explain why I have no problems with it, it doesn't affect me negatively at all, maybe it's because I'm way too used to it? I've been reading and "supporting" this kind of niche content since I was 10 years old, so, it has passed 9 years now and I'm still fine with it. Is it weird? I don't know and I honestly couldn't care less.

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Topic: sexualised teens and children in anime what do you think

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Topic: sexualised teens and children in anime what do you think

More topics from this board

» Manga: Onanie Master Kurosawa

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Sticky: » Spring 2015: General Discussion

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» Topic: "Buzzwords" and popular words/phrases you'd rather not see in critical discourse

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