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Hi can you add me i like youre tastes

Oh no, I like that he's cringe too, but you have to play it well. A character like that has to be played by a talented actor, which are hard to come by in English. My point is, he IS annoying in Japanese but he's watchable because it's just him. He comes off so forced and try-hard (I only see an actor, not the character, if that makes sense) in English.

I wonder how he was in the first series with the different dub.


Haha, I don't think I've even seen a clip of the Snake in English and now I'm curious. I know he's a favorite of yours, and yeah, in Japanese, you never SEE him beyond the voice so it had to leave an impression. Come to think of it, Alastor is pretty underwhelming in the dub from what I remember too. Definitely doesn't sound like what he SHOULD. And Marcosias was very try-hard in English, same as Dantallion.

Japanese almost always trumps English when it comes to higher beings, or those that are supposed to be beyond humanity. Because they can alter the way they speak, just by speaking in a different manner, you come across almost as a wholly different person. The fact in 3, Yuji starts talking in the same way as Snake is proof of that; he barely even still sounds the same when he does that.

By the way, on that note, because it's only mentioned a couple times by Shana "Which one of you is talking?" and even the confusion among the Trinity at times, I'm going to guess that Yuji and the Snake finishing each others' sentences or talking between each other is more so for the viewers and not so much actually happening for the characters. I'm going to guess they hear Yuji's voice (it is his body) but with the Snake's tone and way of speaking, unknowing that the real Yuji is also chiming in more often than not.
That's just how I interpreted it, anyway.

I wonder how it's presented in the Light Novels.


You're going to have to tell me what HOTD is. I have no idea.

I don't even know what to expect by watching that video! I did search around and I saw two characters I haven't the slightest who they are, so who knows!
I would prefer something more visual myself too, but it's worth checking out. If only the people who translate this could translate other things...
Maybe one day.


Yeah, you can! He's right below you on my profile, so read away! He actually had a really good take on the whole Fumina thing that I was actually satisficed with! Guy knows his stuff!
And honestly, having a voice call about Shana sounds like fun! I'm in! Let me know if you can arrange something and tell me when! I'm self-employed so I have a pretty flexible schedule. Don't know if you two are even in the same country, so the time differences might be a hurdle, but so long as it's not 3am to me, I can manage!

You two are the only real ones I've reached out to and then talked in depth from the forum, because I like what you guys were saying! If I had before, it's been for small, brief things, but that's the power of Shana for you!

Let me know what happens!

And haha, yeah, they were pretty blatant there, huh? I mean, it seems like that IS mating for Denizens (at least Denizens and humans), unless it's ever been explicitly stated they could and have actually had physical sex before.

I know there's been a lot of falling in love before between them, but it is also outright explicitly stated that the first true merger was Justus, with Johann and Pheles, but who knows if that counts actual sex.
In any case, what Yuji and Hecate did didn't seem to pique Shaher's interest, haha.

I tried watching the confusing part of 2 in English, just to see what they chose to write (even more hilarious when you watch that commentary clip about HOW SERIOUS THEY WERE TO MAKE EVERYTHING STREAMLINED AND PERFECT) and it wasn't that much different from the subs, but good fucking lord, the voice acting just about killed me. Shana and ESPECIALLY Wilhelmina were just unbearable. And this was at the end of the series! The actor had 23+ episodes of practice! It's like they mistook Wilhelmina's monotone voice to mean "Don't act at all". Yikes. Dantallion was trying, but a character like that is cringe in English, no matter who they get to try and play it.
But yeah, to sum up, I think they're totally confused about what they were saying in that clip. "Tyrant" was mentioned before that scene and I think they came up with their own confusing headcanon for it. I'm definitely curious on what sources they used, but it's not anything I'VE found.

I cannot believe how many anime fans default to dubs, and I've actually heard the excuse "WELL, IT'S THE SAME, RIGHT? I DON'T WANT TO READ..!11" And yeah, then they blame all the shit on the dub acting.

Yu Yu Hakusho is a berserk button for me when it comes to English dubs. I absolute hate it when dubs are more well known than the original and when the dubs flat out pointlessly CHANGE everything from it too. Ugh.


I actually had to buy the series officially after trying the Eclipse Subs; I'm sorry but "Tomogara" and the like just made it unwatchable for me. I felt way more confused from them than the official ones too.


So this thing you linked is translated? I took a look; hmm, I need more research because I don't know who these characters are or what this is supposed to be. But still, good find!
And hey, I'd take ANY visuals over none, so I don't mind!


So, she actually loved Wilhelmina. Like, she was one of her favorites. Her thing with Merrihim was confusing to her, but she didn't mind it. Kazumi was actively endangering herself for this one guy and it just drove her crazy when it was clear he wasn't interested and still she won't let it go.

And yeah, it didn't bother me at all, but this is how western women feel, I guess.

Anyway, I'm also talking to your friend GoldenPincers and he gave me his own explanation, so it's always nice to find more of you guys! He said you've both talked for hours about all this too!

To get to your other reply:
My ratings are like that too, but honestly, part of why I fell in love with the series is because of its attention to detail and so just the fact later parts really aren't standalone and I still can't really make absolute sense of them, I had to lower it a bit.

From everything I've read about the Light Novel though, it's just about everything I'd want from the story, so I'm sure even that would go in my favorite book list (aside the elusive Berserk, the only true 10/10 thing I can honestly say deserves it), but alas... at this stage, I cannot. But yeah, still great shit, but it just disappointed me that even coming in knowing as much as humanly possible and paying attention to ENSURE I catch everything, and with my girlfriend to bounce off to boot, I just came off MORE confused -_-
So I had to lower them.

But really, you hate those Mare episodes from II? They are essentially recaps, but they're not awful or anything and I do like how they incorporate Mare from her sidestory into the series, set up the Keeper on the MLC, and even bring her up again with Sabrac. It definitely was a little fanservice-y though.

And yeah, I know EastEdge and the rest all do say eventually, but you're also just supposed to know "The Gods of the Earth" aren't really Gods on par with Alastor or Snake, and it's just their own Native terms they use. And I still was like "THAT BARTENDER IS ONE??? WHAT?" It was just kinda weird.
The third series was obviously made for intimate fans of the Light Novel in Japan, because they don't really explain a lot of stuff you're just supposed to know. Once I *read* said stuff on my own, I got it, but man, I've never seen such a "read between the lines" series in my life. It's like it was made specifically for fans who already know it and they didn't have enough time to really fully elaborate on it at all. 3 is definitely the worst offender of it.

And, no, no, I'm not saying I wish Shana S didn't have those episodes as well. I agree, the last two especially were pretty great, but why didn't they ALSO include Eternal Song? It's a critical part of the story to the point it even gets referenced again and again in 3, so it really should've been shown. That S series would've been the perfect place for it. And, what, 5 volumes with a lot of it being action? 13 episodes probably would've been enough too.
I still just wonder with how popular Shana is in Japan, and with how anime is always looking for more content, why TO THIS DAY, it still hasn't been tackled. It baffles me to no end.


Speaking of stuff in the LN after the season 3, on the wikia, apparently I've heard that there are audio dramas? So I guess the voice actors did some acting to at least bring those to some sort of life, even if it is just through imagination. So maybe they already do exist?
Again, Japan gets everything. You get less than scraps as an English speaking Shana fan.


Well... my girlfriend is well versed on shojo manga; it was a lot of her past. So Yuji drove her insane with how oblivious he was to Kazumi and Shana (and she really hated how he always made Shana feel). She cared a lot about Shana and agreed with her, so while she understood what he was doing, she fundamentally just shook her head at his method and how seemingly without awareness he always continued to be.
And Kazumi, to her, she was just "that girl" you always see in shojo that she couldn't stand. I did see her point in a way too; I mean, realistically, she's like 16, very pretty, with another boy confirmed (and who knows how much more) into her, with a brother, dog, and full family, yet for SOME REASON, she's not only willing to die for this ONE boy who barely even acknowledges or who is just too nice to say no, she just could not sympathize with her feelings. It is a bit crazy too, when I put it like that to me too.
Like even after the Snake of the Festival pretty much tells her he chose Shana, she's STILL enamored with him. It's anime, yeah, but, yeah, kinda insane.

Margery, she was just really off-put with her getting involved with a literal 16 year old. And yeah, she could never get back in her good graces after that. That was just too much. The only other girl I've watched Shana with had the same reaction.

Hey, first off, it's funny you just mentioned GoldenPincers, because I just started talking to him too! I was in the episode topics trying to see if anyone posted about some of the answers I've been looking for (with no luck, most people here are such normies; literally 99% of it was just about the Shana/Yuji/Kazumi triangle and nothing in-depth) but I found one of his posts and was very impressed and reached out! He just got back to me and I'm definitely going to talk with him too! I should've known you would've already been friends, haha.

Aaah, see, those are DUB commentaries.... I avoid dubs (and especially THIS dub; the acting is terrible too) so I felt there was nothing of value to be found there. My own sets (I think I own DVD copies of the blu-rays, probably bootlegs, but who cares? I don't, I prefer DVD) have the exact same stuff. Anyway, I did still watch it and hmm, now I'm more perplexed... I don't know what research they did, because all I've ever found is that Tyrant I and II are the two copies of the Silver; one anchored in the Palace of the Stars that can project itself to find emotions (what Margery entailed) and Tyrant I is simply the Silver that was put into the MLC by Sabrac to allow it to unify with Tyrant II eventually. That was the plan, and it's how Snake contacted Yuji from inside it.

Granted, all I've ever found is the wikia, because that "Statue of pride" is not in the light novel at all. So I have no idea why it would be "The Tyrant", when literally all throughout 3, whenever Yuji/Snake uses the Silver as his Unrestricted Spell, he always says "Tyrant". I'd like to see their sources because I've hunted through names too and I've never found anything in depth, the most being the wikia, which I've tried to read every page on to get the clearest picture I could and all of that is where I came up with my conclusions. I get their plan IN THE LIGHT NOVEL, but the anime.... still no idea. It doesn't meld in my mind.

I did notice this too that before then they never even alluded to the fact that there were TWO Silvers, but them beginning to unify in 2 when Pheles interfered was in the light novel and that was both of them prematurely coming together and when it started to burst out of Yuji.

It makes even less sense now with that. He even said "Absorption/Unification, we know that from the first series"....??? Where? Was that with Hecate? I have no idea what he's even referring to there.
Personally, they were completely confused themselves. The anime is LITEARLLY showing flashbacks to when the Silver burst out of Yuji, and if we go with the Light Novel "Tyrant I and II had the same systems and unified prematurely", which explains how it's stated to be "inside" Yuji from Sabrac and yet ALSO outside at the Palace of the Stars at the same time. So where they got that Tyrant II is the Pride statue.... uh, that makes no sense. The anime also would've flashbacked to THAT if that's what they meant. I'd hate to imagine how hard to follow the dub is.

Speaking of your subs, I used the ones on this DVD; they use terms like "Psalm of the Grand Order" vs "Taimen Shihen" which was on the free subs. Those free subs also prefer "Tomogara" and "Fuzetsu" instead of "Denizen" and "Seal", and I remember not liking it very much with those because I couldn't follow along whatsoever.

Honestly, I think the real answer is a lot more simple, and I found this out later. Shana 1 and 2 were released before the Light Novel was even finished, hence why it had the longest delay between seasons. And when they adapted season 3, they were like "Fuck it, just follow the source material" without really addressing all the new stuff they came up for the last 2 seasons. Lines like this scene are verbatim from the light novel, and so that's why it's hard to follow in the anime.
That's really the only thing that makes the most sense, honestly, and maybe the broad strokes... you can put something together, but all the tight details this series is known for, I honestly can't come up with a thing. It doesn't really make sense.


Anyway, I do like your explanation that Yuji accepting did help them out and made the mess he made at the end II a lot easier to sweep under the rug, but still.... I have to think on this still. Anyway, I can ask Golden these questions now, so no need to invest more time in this! I appreciate the response and the video!
GOD, what I wouldn't give to know someone Japanese to help me translate all this shit.

You tackled the entire message except the really long part where I tried to explain what *I* thought the entire plan for that stupid Effigy of Pride was, since to me, it really makes no sense. That was the best I could come up with, as a Shana fan who knows the material better, I really wanted to know what you thought about it. Or how did YOU see it?

It's bugging me. That part truly bugs me. I can't make sense of it no matter how hard I try and I have a Japanese guidebook about it that I can't read; only further taunting me about it.

So all my explanations for the ending of Shana 2 was too much? I was curious about your thoughts for it. Damn, I guess all I can do IS headcanon it. :/

Whoops, sorry, I forgot some parts:

Her favorite character was Shana, followed by Wilhelmina, and she absolutely hated Yoshida consistently throughout and later on really disliked Yuji and completely turned on Margery following when she hooked up with Sato. I guess that was just a line for her.

you don't need to apologize! I asked a lot and you did get to it eventually!

Anyway, while I still love Shana and 3, I had to lower it from a 10 to a 9 simply because it does not work at all on its own. I can't just recommend it to normal anime fans; they wouldn't get anything. Yeah, the broad strokes do, but the filler of 1 and 2, and the little details, it's all stuff from the Light Novels and it was clearly made for fans of those (which makes sense, given the series' huge popularity in Japanese).

But it is great once you KNOW those issues, but yeah, I never knew what the Four Gods of Earth were even supposed to be and I thought EastEdge was literally just a bartender my first time and was confused when he started calling down meteors to just exterminate Denizens from the truckload.


I don't remember if it was explicitly Dantallion, but I do remember it was either him, Sydonay, or Bel-Peol who said something akin to "Flame Hazes around the world won't be able to ignore it" as if it was one of the benefits of them doing and why they didn't like it when it was sealed, preventing it. I don't get this as they spend ALL of 3 trying to keep the Flame Hazes off them.

I've thought about it a bit (the guidebooks of 2 and the light novel didn't help, since it's just Japanese only), and while I think you're correct about it being some sort of form for Snake of the Festival, he still would be inside Tyrant II piloting it with Hecate able to as well.

I'm beginning to think this might be part of their plan to incorporate the Midnight Lost Child, actually. Think about it, the Grand Order and Psalm of the Grand Order are thousands and thousands of years old, this whole Tyrant idea, retrieving his body, Xandu was cooked up way before the MLC ever existed. It's no more than a couple hundred years at absolute MOST. And I don't even think it's that old.

Obviously they didn't NEED it, but given its versatility I could see it serving a use, especially once it was found. (I would love to know what their plan was in the LN regarding it).
So because Hecate was able to pull it out due to finally disabling the Keeper and they installed it into Tyrant II who was autonomous thanks to Hecate's false vessel's memories (Its emotion absorption features were only for resonating with the Snake's Aggregate Will, like what it did with Margery) so I'm assuming Fumina's memories allowed her to synchronize and allowed it to animate physically.
My guess was this was only to be temporary until the Snake fully transplanted inside, now housing the MLC. And maybe this giant Effigy of Pride was just to distract and battle the Flame Hazes while they departed. Bait, essentially. I'm sure it would've been hard to kill.
Of course what doesn't make sense is that if Snake is inside Tyrant II or if Hecate has to remote control it, Tyrant II (the body of Snake) has to be left behind to control it. He can't go inside Tyrant I because it's just inside the MLC... like, they had no other choice really beyond Snake taking Yuji instead, and that way, they also got to keep the MLC too.

My point is, it barely makes sense no matter how much headcanon I try to use; I can barely make it fit at best and it doesn't line up whatsoever at worst, and it just seems like a HELL of a lot of extra work on Bal Masque's part for something that didn't even work, or that wasn't the original 3-part plan to begin with.

The only other idea I have is it's Dantallion's idealized version of the Psalm and he thought he could speed run it all together: Getting the MLC, the Tyrant II, and a new body for the Snake (that could possibly do what his original body was needed for WITHOUT having to trek insdie the rift?), and get to experience a lot of crazy shit that has never been done before. That IS in character with him, but again, that's a lot of effort and trust for Bal Masque to give him and risking Tyrant II in the process. (What even happened to it at the end? It just falls over, but didn't they need THAT one in particular as the Snake's body??? Tyrant I was just essentially a backup that was originally going to just be an energy source.)

Ugh, I wish all the filler from the anime could've been cut and they could've just done the light novel. I get that the LN wasn't done by the time even Shana 2 finished, but they really should've waited after season 1. I hate that ending too and how they butchered Friagne's ending too. That Fountain of Existence could've been used in so many other ways. I do hate the "Lol random luck we survived the Tempa Josai, but we can't risk it anymore", which totally undermines the stakes later on and even creates a contradiction later on with how "The Palace of the Stars has never been breached" (you know, except in season 1, but I can at least justify it that Bal Masque was mostly empty at the time)

I'm most pissed that Mathilde's story never was adapted. That's what Shana S should've been, but it's part of the story, ugh, take the filler out and put that in.

I agree with you on that scene though. It's literally just bait, but it doesn't fit either. I noticed they even put Azure on Yuji's finger, when he still continues to wear it as a necklace.

But it's pretty typical to most anime in-media-res openings I've seen though. They were pressed for time as is, they didn't need that extra 2 for nothing.

Anyway, sorry for the length. See, I love Shakugan No Shana BECAUSE it has so much detail in its story and concepts and if you really stop and think about the Pride thing at the end of 2, nothing about it makes ANY sense at all. And that is just so disappointing when that's usually the best part of the series. The more you think about something, the MORE sense ti makes.

I keep hearing about some site with AI that's going to bring 400 or so light novels over to translate (without biased and corrupt localizers) and man, you don't know how hard I'm wishing the Shana Light Novels could be among them eventually. I want to read it all so bad you have no idea ;_;

Okay, so help me try to explain the finale of Shana 2. The last two episodes seriously drive me crazy.

I'm rewatching the series (3rd time now) with my girlfriend and we're halfway through 3. It's her and my favorite, but she admits that she never would've liked it or watched it without me, because too much is left unsaid. And boy, is that an understatement. I think that's the one critical flaw of the anime, you almost need a wikia or light novel knowledge; too many details are never explained at all without supplementary material. It doesn't stand very well on its own.

And honestly, that's fine, I don't mind that. What is bother ME is that the anime only stuff really doesn't make sense.
I even bought the guidebook to 1 and 2 to try and understand, but I can't translate them, so I thought I'd ask you.

Okay, the parts not in the light novel are the end of Shana 1, all the Fumina stuff in 2 and the finale with that Effigy of Pride. The latter being really the only part that makes no sense to me.

I get what the Silver/Tyrant are now. Created by Dantallion from the Pslam of the Grand Order, as pieces of Snake of the Festival (he has silver eyes in the light novel) and Tyrant II needed to absorb emotions for centuries (like Margery) to develop an artifical aggregate will to be able to resonate with the Snake's Aggregate Will to be used as a body for him; even though he later chose Yuji instead.
Tyrant I was in the Midnight Lost Child from Sabrac and had all the same systems of II, but they were inactive. The Tyrants were originally supposed to merge, with II using I as a power source, and it's through I that the Snake was able to reach Yuji.

I get that. That's light novel stuff, it makes sense. The Grand Order is then make body, retrieve his original body, and create Xanadu.
All light novel stuff too, fine. Makes sense.

Then WHAT THE HECK was the Effigy of Pride that Dantallion was going on and on about in the end of 2? That they used that Fountain of Existence at the end of 1 for? A Denizen created on Earth, whose very existence would shake up everything, and alert every Flame Haze to them.... these are Dantallion's own words. WHY?
Why is this necessary? Why would they WANT all the Flame Haze on them? They spend all of 3 trying to prevent them from getting close.

Why did they need Fumina's fake memories to give mobility to Tyrant II to pilot said Effigy of Pride? If the Snake was supposed to inhabit this body, with the MLC as its heart, why was it then synced to Hecate? And WHY would they need this giant thing? What purpose does it serve?


Was it a purely a Dantallion side mission that he thought he could make the Psalm of the Grand Order better and skip the hard parts, like retrieving the Snake's body?

I've thought about this with her and we can't come up with anything that remotely fits together.

I honestly wish this entire part wasn't in the anime at all. I could tolerate the Fountain of Existence in part 1, but they should've just said it was to allow the Snake to manifest when they retrieved him or something like that. Weird implementations of the Tempa Josai aside, it at least could make sense.
I just cannot for the life of me guess what this plan in 2 was, at all. They say it was also part of the Grand Order, but they also failed at it, and it didn't matter at all.

That's a lot of effort for just a side tangent. No idea.

The worst part is that they don't even give it a LINE to explain it away. Nothing. In Shana 3, it's never mentioned again EVER. So why have it at all? Ugh, it bothers me and is a real low point to it, if I'm being honest.

What do you think? Can't read Japanese books, you're my best shot.

I recently dropped like 100 on the Eternal Song manga (Japanese), some tutorial books regarding Shana 2 and the whole one that sums up the Light Novel plan of Bal Masque. It's driving me absolutely crazy that I can't read the light novels, find out what the Statue of Pride was (since it's anime only) and other shit like that.

I know you can use AI now to more or less translate it, so I'm hoping maybe I'll get a KERNAL of something if I try that from those books?

Do you know any other ways or things I can use? How did you find out all you knew about it? Being a Shana fan in English is one of the worst things ever. All you have is a poorly written wikia to confer in. Hell, they couldn't even FINISH Eternal Song when a fan group tried in 2013. FIVE FREAKING VOLUMES.

Ugh.

Don't worry, man, it's all good. Your real life is more important than wishing happy birthday to someone in the internet.

Yes. A bit rainy, but I had a nice dinner party with my family.
Thanks for asking, btw.

Wow, just from that alone is pretty laughable. Are those genocidal aliens and that cool black character revealed later or are they all in the first game? My point is, it might have taken awhile to get to those plot points, maybe, but I'm guessing not.

Check off everything else, black-washing and all that other typical and tiring stuff.
But I'm legit amazed they didn't turn John (Master Chief?) gay, so at least there's that, haha.

And I also know at least, from my novice knowledge, he also NEVER takes off his helmet ever, or at least you never see his face. I know for a fact just from reviews, that lasted... 5 minutes? Hah.

Hey, pal. I remember you mentioning you were a huge Halo fan awhile ago. I've heard some truly awful things about the new live action show; like, almost everyone hates it and it bastardizes everything. Just wondering if you've checked it out, as someone who knows all about it. Just curious! I love a good trainwreck from those in the know!