New
Jul 31, 2023 9:15 PM
#1
Ok so maybe I just haven't dug deep enough and I'm about to make myself look like an idiot, but I've been through a few homunculus forums always searching the word Nanako and have yet to see anyone else say that the lady from the last arc of homunculus is probably not Nanako or even really propose it. Here, I will list out all the reasons why I think this woman is not Nanako at all. Reasons why she is probably not Nanako: 1. She says Satoshi when Nakoshi describes the face he sees on her and acts shocked that he could even know what that face looks like, specifically saying "his face" and not "your face". 2. She continues to say she's not Nanako and that she never saw hearts even when she's admitting that she was ugly and Nakoshi left her along with the pregnant child in her stomach. Why would she even lie at that point if that much of the past and truth is exposed? She literally never admits to being Nanako or having the ability to see homunculi. 2.5 Additionally, the pier he takes her to that's so precious to him is the first place he ever kissed Nanako and had sex with her, but this woman acts completely unphased by being brought here. This would make sense if she were Nanako and just hiding it out of spite, but considering she never admits to being Nanako and she would have to at least have a really good poker face to pull that lie off, I doubt it. 3. Nakoshi literally tells her that in order for them to truly connect and see each other's hearts, she will have to lie to herself a little. If he's not referring to her real lover having been Satoshi instead of Nakoshi, I have no idea what else he could mean by that. 4. We never actually see her ever draw on a sketched background, only ever on a white background, while we know Nanako only drew on sketched backgrounds. 5. Nakoshi's old photo of himself doesn't match the one that shows up on the woman's face and he even admits to Ito that he was never terribly ugly, just detached and empty. 6. It's not a big secret that Nakoshi's mental health steadily declines as the series goes on, especially after we've seen him willing to drill a hole in his skull and potentially die just so he can see the homunculi again. Becoming delusional enough to believe this woman is Nanako doesn't seem so far-fetched to me. 7. Though nakoshi has seen the imprint of the face before, he refuses to believe that it's him since there's no proof that she's Nanako and there's the old picture of his face that he still had (that we never see, so we can't compare it to the face on this lady btw), which is reasonable. This all suddenly flips around when Ita commits suicide even though he had a place to go back to and someone to love him, along with the gradually mounting pressure of all the homeless being forced out of the park with nowhere to go. Nakoshi's sheer desperation makes him lie to himself to believe this woman is Nanako. 8. If she is Nanako, then why is she interacting with Nakoshi, the man who she was together with for 3 months and then abruptly abandoned her? What's the point of her lying to the point of literally never admitting she was ever nanako or she could ever see hearts? If she isn't Nanako, then she met Nakoshi at a party, could tell he was a pig, left him a drawing to show what she thought of him, and then interacts with him when he's passing out from blood loss and comes over to help. She only really starts to believe in him somewhat when she sees how he saw the heart of the yakuza who was about to kill him. Before that point, she was just going to use him to skip town and get away with all the yakuza money she was stealing. You could even wonder if her whole reason for talking to him over and over out of the blue was so that she could have someone to run away with (remember we don't even know if she has access to a car). 9. Before the encounter with the yakuza, she definitively states that seeing hearts isn't real and there is only the material: what you see. it's difficult to believe that someone who could see homunculi like Nanako would completely reject the notion of seeing hearts as even being possible. Reasons why she might be Nanako: 1. This lady being able to see Nakoshi become a demon is honestly something that cannot be reasonably explained if she is not Nanako. You could chalk it up to her being able to just get a feeling that this man is dangerous, but the detailed illustration of Nakoshi's demon face really does make him look like a homunculus and would seem to imply she can see homunculi. 2. Her artstyle of heavily relying on shading (Nakoshi's face and the black cat) does look quite a bit like Nanako's. Of course this could just be a coincidence, but there's no denying it looks similar. 3. If she's not Nanako, why was Nakoshi able to see her homunculus even when he couldn't see any others (remember this is the first time she really gets his attention)? I have no idea honestly; the whole ability to see homunculi is never definitively explained, only theorized on by Ito. By the end of the manga, even Ito admits that they have no clue what any of it means or how it works. There's really no way to know for sure why this lady looked different to him if she's not Nanako. More ambiguous points: 1. Obviously, it seems like Nanako and this woman have enough in common to be the same person at first glance. But think about it like this: all we know for a fact about Nanako's backstory is that she was very ugly and with a man of low confidence who abandoned her after sleeping with her. All we know for a fact about this woman's backstory is that she was very ugly and with a very ugly man who abandoned her after getting her pregnant. She then got plastic surgery to look pretty and became a mistress for rich men. Although there are definitely similarities, is it really such a huge coincidence that two born-ugly women in tokyo whom nakoshi meets have similar backgrounds? Logically, you could say it's too much of a stretch, but I think it works for the manga extremely well thematically since there's a pretty blatant motif about how depressing and hard life can be in this modern society. Of course there would be so many ugly women treated so horribly in a society that only values appearances and lies. 2. What about the flashback where Nakoshi was called ugly as a kid and his dad said "so what?". Also you could argue Nakoshi's dad looks like the face imprinted onto the woman's homunculus. Yes, that's all true and does make it seem like Nakoshi is indeed that ugly, but it's important to note that after Ita's death, Nakoshi gets extremely desperate and can be seen as a completely unreliable source of information, saying and believing whatever he can to get what he wants. Even if these things were true, he could have just looked less ugly as he got older or the girl could have just been calling him a mean name for putting on the wrong clothes or his dad was just an asshole or his dad's resemblance to Satoshi was a coincidence. With all of those points listed out, there's really nothing that uniquely ties this woman to Nanako aside from seeing Nakoshi as a demon once since it would imply she saw his homunculus. However, everything before Nakoshi becoming extremely desperate for someone to look at him (Ita's death) suggests that she simply is not Nanako. Tons of feedback and discussion would be appreciated. |
Jul 31, 2023 9:50 PM
#2
This is the first actually interesting post I've seen on MAL... Very good observations, and although I'm not totally on board at the moment as I only just recently finished the series, I really think this theory might be plausible |
Aug 1, 2023 3:16 AM
#3
nice explanation i too think that the woman was not nanako and i believe that maybe nakoshi was just going jack shit crazy after all the things that happened and was most probably lying to himself about her being nanako because he needed someone like nanako who would love him even if he's evil |
Aug 2, 2023 12:08 AM
#4
I think she is Nanako, but in denial. Just like Nakoshi, she too left her past behind, got the surgery probably because the breakup gave her some insecurity complex regarding her looks, and also a determination to erase her painful past and start a new life. Nakoshi didn't actually forget his past, although it seems that he did; he forced his mind to believe his new self as the original one as if the old one never existed, because it was too shameful to him. Nanako feels the same way. Unlike Nakoshi, she remembered her old life, but didn't want to face the painful past anymore. She denied being Nanako, because recalling the old moments were too painful for her. She rejected Nakoshi earlier saying "I hate the lips that lie" (something like that, I don't remember the exact sentence) because she recognized Nakoshi despite his plastic surgery, because she knew him personally (corner of his lips twitch upright when he lies). She saw him through his facade. In Nanako's eyes, Nakoshi was as pure as a white cloud at the time, when he hadn't turn evil. But later, she refused to see him as the cloud because she has witnessed his true self. |
Red_sparklingAug 2, 2023 12:14 AM
Aug 2, 2023 12:33 PM
#5
Red_sparkling said: I think she is Nanako, but in denial. Just like Nakoshi, she too left her past behind, got the surgery probably because the breakup gave her some insecurity complex regarding her looks, and also a determination to erase her painful past and start a new life. Nakoshi didn't actually forget his past, although it seems that he did; he forced his mind to believe his new self as the original one as if the old one never existed, because it was too shameful to him. Nanako feels the same way. Unlike Nakoshi, she remembered her old life, but didn't want to face the painful past anymore. She denied being Nanako, because recalling the old moments were too painful for her. She rejected Nakoshi earlier saying "I hate the lips that lie" (something like that, I don't remember the exact sentence) because she recognized Nakoshi despite his plastic surgery, because she knew him personally (corner of his lips twitch upright when he lies). She saw him through his facade. In Nanako's eyes, Nakoshi was as pure as a white cloud at the time, when he hadn't turn evil. But later, she refused to see him as the cloud because she has witnessed his true self. I agree, she even grabs his lips and then he cannot lie in that one scene. I recently finished Homunculus and I'm not sure what to think of the last arc really lol. |
Feb 27, 2024 9:40 AM
#6
Reply to InfiNitrous
Red_sparkling said:
I think she is Nanako, but in denial. Just like Nakoshi, she too left her past behind, got the surgery probably because the breakup gave her some insecurity complex regarding her looks, and also a determination to erase her painful past and start a new life. Nakoshi didn't actually forget his past, although it seems that he did; he forced his mind to believe his new self as the original one as if the old one never existed, because it was too shameful to him.
Nanako feels the same way. Unlike Nakoshi, she remembered her old life, but didn't want to face the painful past anymore. She denied being Nanako, because recalling the old moments were too painful for her. She rejected Nakoshi earlier saying "I hate the lips that lie" (something like that, I don't remember the exact sentence) because she recognized Nakoshi despite his plastic surgery, because she knew him personally (corner of his lips twitch upright when he lies). She saw him through his facade. In Nanako's eyes, Nakoshi was as pure as a white cloud at the time, when he hadn't turn evil. But later, she refused to see him as the cloud because she has witnessed his true self.
I think she is Nanako, but in denial. Just like Nakoshi, she too left her past behind, got the surgery probably because the breakup gave her some insecurity complex regarding her looks, and also a determination to erase her painful past and start a new life. Nakoshi didn't actually forget his past, although it seems that he did; he forced his mind to believe his new self as the original one as if the old one never existed, because it was too shameful to him.
Nanako feels the same way. Unlike Nakoshi, she remembered her old life, but didn't want to face the painful past anymore. She denied being Nanako, because recalling the old moments were too painful for her. She rejected Nakoshi earlier saying "I hate the lips that lie" (something like that, I don't remember the exact sentence) because she recognized Nakoshi despite his plastic surgery, because she knew him personally (corner of his lips twitch upright when he lies). She saw him through his facade. In Nanako's eyes, Nakoshi was as pure as a white cloud at the time, when he hadn't turn evil. But later, she refused to see him as the cloud because she has witnessed his true self.
I agree, she even grabs his lips and then he cannot lie in that one scene. I recently finished Homunculus and I'm not sure what to think of the last arc really lol.
@InfiNitrous He had grabbed his own lips in said panel. |
Jul 25, 2024 11:51 AM
#7
I just finished the manga and, after reading through many forum posts on various sites, I was also shocked to find that most people accepted that woman as Nanako. In reality, the book’s subtext clearly depicts that this is NOT the case — I would go so far as to say that this is not even a theory. Once she tells Nakoshi that she is not Nanako and can’t see clouds for the final time, we see Nakoshi with a shocked expression as our view quickly fades to black. I believe this is a metaphor for Nakoshi’s mental state crumbling; after witnessing the suicide of a man who similarly believed he had nowhere to go, Nakoshi is desperate to find a place to call home and believes Nanako is his only path toward salvation in finding true love and his true self. He cannot accept that this woman is not Nanako, and the mere thought that he may never find her — the only person who may see his true self — is enough to break him. Following the fade to black, Nakoshi assaults her, berates her, threatens her, and finally tells her to tell “that final, teensy little lie” to herself. As he says this, he appears demonic and it is clear that his mental state has finally reached the point of no return. It is beyond me how many people seemed to have just glossed over this scene… The lie that Nakoshi is requesting her to tell is that she is Nanako. There is no other possible interpretation of this line. It cements that not only is this woman not Nanako but that Nakoshi KNOWS it, at least deep down, and is willing to suppress that knowledge to attain a new false perception of happiness. Finally, after the woman witnesses Nakoshi’s apparent miracle with the Yakuza and believes in his power to see inside hearts, she accepts that she can tell this little lie after all. The manga literally depicts her shaking and stuttering for a moment before she tells that lie, and Nakoshi reacts to it with a devilish grin and psychopathic look. Once again, I cannot understand how there would be other interpretations of these two scenes. It seems most people just completely read past them or forgot about them entirely. I didn’t originally come to these forums to theorize and question whether that woman is Nanako, I wanted to theorize about their prior relationship and identities or the lack thereof. I theorize that the following is the most likely possibility: Nakoshi and this woman never met each other before their plastic surgeries, they may have just shared a very similar experience with similar trauma (like with the other homunculi that Nakoshi closely encountered). It is not uncommon for an ugly man and an ugly woman to date, only for the ugly man to disappear following a pregnancy. This would explain why she referred to her former lover as Satoshi and why Satoshi’s face did not match the one in Nakoshi’s photo. This stance may also be supported by the nature of their conversation in the car just before the scenes previously discussed above. As Nakoshi and the woman speak to one another about their past relationship trauma and their stories align, it’s written in a way that seems as if they are not talking to one another, but rather to Nanako and Satoshi, two different people. They both refer to Nanako and Satoshi as “she” and “he” or by their names, rather than “you” in most instances. Even the woman refers to Nanako as she/her. The few times that one of them uses the pronoun “you,” it is primarily used as a comment on that person’s story. The conversation reads very similarly to Nakoshi’s conversations with other homunculi earlier in the manga; they are not truly talking to one another, but rather talking to themselves and their past trauma by using the other person with an incredibly similar experience as a vessel. Before writing this comment, I had a few other possible explanations in mind that were more unsubstantiated and out there. For example, I thought of the possibility that Nakoshi had forgotten not only his face but also his real name. Even in such a case, I thought that the woman wasn’t Nanako, but rather another woman that Nakoshi was with besides Nanako. However, writing my thoughts like this helped me settle upon the conclusion I outlined above, particularly when I connected that their conversation was similar to Nakoshi’s with other homunculi. That realization brings it all together. That woman was simply yet another person with a mirrored trauma to Nakoshi’s, like every other homunculus before her. They were both on opposite sides of abandoning / being abandoned by the only person they believed accepted them despite their looks. For Nakoshi, this formed feelings of regret, self-pity, and hollowness, while for the woman it cemented her feeling that men were shallow and could not see through to her heart. Their reasonings for surgery were mirrored too — Nakoshi got surgery to escape his situation after failing to realize what he did have while the woman got surgery to cope with her situation out of fear for what she didn’t have. Both dealt with this trauma by becoming compulsive liars in the aftermath. Ultimately, it became a tragic story where they are both willing to accept one final lie to give themselves false hope of finding someone who can see their true selves. You’re free to disagree, but this is my interpretation of the true nature of their relationship. |
Nov 14, 2024 10:38 AM
#8
Reply to k0rvus
I just finished the manga and, after reading through many forum posts on various sites, I was also shocked to find that most people accepted that woman as Nanako. In reality, the book’s subtext clearly depicts that this is NOT the case — I would go so far as to say that this is not even a theory.
Once she tells Nakoshi that she is not Nanako and can’t see clouds for the final time, we see Nakoshi with a shocked expression as our view quickly fades to black. I believe this is a metaphor for Nakoshi’s mental state crumbling; after witnessing the suicide of a man who similarly believed he had nowhere to go, Nakoshi is desperate to find a place to call home and believes Nanako is his only path toward salvation in finding true love and his true self. He cannot accept that this woman is not Nanako, and the mere thought that he may never find her — the only person who may see his true self — is enough to break him.
Following the fade to black, Nakoshi assaults her, berates her, threatens her, and finally tells her to tell “that final, teensy little lie” to herself. As he says this, he appears demonic and it is clear that his mental state has finally reached the point of no return. It is beyond me how many people seemed to have just glossed over this scene… The lie that Nakoshi is requesting her to tell is that she is Nanako. There is no other possible interpretation of this line. It cements that not only is this woman not Nanako but that Nakoshi KNOWS it, at least deep down, and is willing to suppress that knowledge to attain a new false perception of happiness.
Finally, after the woman witnesses Nakoshi’s apparent miracle with the Yakuza and believes in his power to see inside hearts, she accepts that she can tell this little lie after all. The manga literally depicts her shaking and stuttering for a moment before she tells that lie, and Nakoshi reacts to it with a devilish grin and psychopathic look. Once again, I cannot understand how there would be other interpretations of these two scenes. It seems most people just completely read past them or forgot about them entirely.
I didn’t originally come to these forums to theorize and question whether that woman is Nanako, I wanted to theorize about their prior relationship and identities or the lack thereof. I theorize that the following is the most likely possibility:
Nakoshi and this woman never met each other before their plastic surgeries, they may have just shared a very similar experience with similar trauma (like with the other homunculi that Nakoshi closely encountered). It is not uncommon for an ugly man and an ugly woman to date, only for the ugly man to disappear following a pregnancy. This would explain why she referred to her former lover as Satoshi and why Satoshi’s face did not match the one in Nakoshi’s photo. This stance may also be supported by the nature of their conversation in the car just before the scenes previously discussed above. As Nakoshi and the woman speak to one another about their past relationship trauma and their stories align, it’s written in a way that seems as if they are not talking to one another, but rather to Nanako and Satoshi, two different people. They both refer to Nanako and Satoshi as “she” and “he” or by their names, rather than “you” in most instances. Even the woman refers to Nanako as she/her. The few times that one of them uses the pronoun “you,” it is primarily used as a comment on that person’s story. The conversation reads very similarly to Nakoshi’s conversations with other homunculi earlier in the manga; they are not truly talking to one another, but rather talking to themselves and their past trauma by using the other person with an incredibly similar experience as a vessel.
Before writing this comment, I had a few other possible explanations in mind that were more unsubstantiated and out there. For example, I thought of the possibility that Nakoshi had forgotten not only his face but also his real name. Even in such a case, I thought that the woman wasn’t Nanako, but rather another woman that Nakoshi was with besides Nanako. However, writing my thoughts like this helped me settle upon the conclusion I outlined above, particularly when I connected that their conversation was similar to Nakoshi’s with other homunculi. That realization brings it all together.
That woman was simply yet another person with a mirrored trauma to Nakoshi’s, like every other homunculus before her. They were both on opposite sides of abandoning / being abandoned by the only person they believed accepted them despite their looks. For Nakoshi, this formed feelings of regret, self-pity, and hollowness, while for the woman it cemented her feeling that men were shallow and could not see through to her heart. Their reasonings for surgery were mirrored too — Nakoshi got surgery to escape his situation after failing to realize what he did have while the woman got surgery to cope with her situation out of fear for what she didn’t have. Both dealt with this trauma by becoming compulsive liars in the aftermath. Ultimately, it became a tragic story where they are both willing to accept one final lie to give themselves false hope of finding someone who can see their true selves. You’re free to disagree, but this is my interpretation of the true nature of their relationship.
Once she tells Nakoshi that she is not Nanako and can’t see clouds for the final time, we see Nakoshi with a shocked expression as our view quickly fades to black. I believe this is a metaphor for Nakoshi’s mental state crumbling; after witnessing the suicide of a man who similarly believed he had nowhere to go, Nakoshi is desperate to find a place to call home and believes Nanako is his only path toward salvation in finding true love and his true self. He cannot accept that this woman is not Nanako, and the mere thought that he may never find her — the only person who may see his true self — is enough to break him.
Following the fade to black, Nakoshi assaults her, berates her, threatens her, and finally tells her to tell “that final, teensy little lie” to herself. As he says this, he appears demonic and it is clear that his mental state has finally reached the point of no return. It is beyond me how many people seemed to have just glossed over this scene… The lie that Nakoshi is requesting her to tell is that she is Nanako. There is no other possible interpretation of this line. It cements that not only is this woman not Nanako but that Nakoshi KNOWS it, at least deep down, and is willing to suppress that knowledge to attain a new false perception of happiness.
Finally, after the woman witnesses Nakoshi’s apparent miracle with the Yakuza and believes in his power to see inside hearts, she accepts that she can tell this little lie after all. The manga literally depicts her shaking and stuttering for a moment before she tells that lie, and Nakoshi reacts to it with a devilish grin and psychopathic look. Once again, I cannot understand how there would be other interpretations of these two scenes. It seems most people just completely read past them or forgot about them entirely.
I didn’t originally come to these forums to theorize and question whether that woman is Nanako, I wanted to theorize about their prior relationship and identities or the lack thereof. I theorize that the following is the most likely possibility:
Nakoshi and this woman never met each other before their plastic surgeries, they may have just shared a very similar experience with similar trauma (like with the other homunculi that Nakoshi closely encountered). It is not uncommon for an ugly man and an ugly woman to date, only for the ugly man to disappear following a pregnancy. This would explain why she referred to her former lover as Satoshi and why Satoshi’s face did not match the one in Nakoshi’s photo. This stance may also be supported by the nature of their conversation in the car just before the scenes previously discussed above. As Nakoshi and the woman speak to one another about their past relationship trauma and their stories align, it’s written in a way that seems as if they are not talking to one another, but rather to Nanako and Satoshi, two different people. They both refer to Nanako and Satoshi as “she” and “he” or by their names, rather than “you” in most instances. Even the woman refers to Nanako as she/her. The few times that one of them uses the pronoun “you,” it is primarily used as a comment on that person’s story. The conversation reads very similarly to Nakoshi’s conversations with other homunculi earlier in the manga; they are not truly talking to one another, but rather talking to themselves and their past trauma by using the other person with an incredibly similar experience as a vessel.
Before writing this comment, I had a few other possible explanations in mind that were more unsubstantiated and out there. For example, I thought of the possibility that Nakoshi had forgotten not only his face but also his real name. Even in such a case, I thought that the woman wasn’t Nanako, but rather another woman that Nakoshi was with besides Nanako. However, writing my thoughts like this helped me settle upon the conclusion I outlined above, particularly when I connected that their conversation was similar to Nakoshi’s with other homunculi. That realization brings it all together.
That woman was simply yet another person with a mirrored trauma to Nakoshi’s, like every other homunculus before her. They were both on opposite sides of abandoning / being abandoned by the only person they believed accepted them despite their looks. For Nakoshi, this formed feelings of regret, self-pity, and hollowness, while for the woman it cemented her feeling that men were shallow and could not see through to her heart. Their reasonings for surgery were mirrored too — Nakoshi got surgery to escape his situation after failing to realize what he did have while the woman got surgery to cope with her situation out of fear for what she didn’t have. Both dealt with this trauma by becoming compulsive liars in the aftermath. Ultimately, it became a tragic story where they are both willing to accept one final lie to give themselves false hope of finding someone who can see their true selves. You’re free to disagree, but this is my interpretation of the true nature of their relationship.
@k0rvus Very well said i agree with you on all. |
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