| So I've created a thread for people to discuss real history around this show's settings. Anyone who is interested can come hang out here. Background: Japan, for the most part, was an isolationist country. During the mid-19th century though, Japan saw the rise of Western powers and the humiliating defeat of China (such as the Opium War). One prominent political thinker, Fukuzawa Yukichi, proposed that Japan abandon Asia and join the ranks of the West. Japan did that, and become a prominent Imperialist in Asia after the first Sino-Japanese War (which Japan gained Korea and Taiwan) and the Russo-Japanese War (expanded Japan's influence into northeastern China and Siberia). During this time, Japan created the propaganda that it will "liberate" all Asians from Western Imperialist, and that harmony will be achieved between the Chinese, Manchus, Koreans, etc. with the help of Japan. However, in actuality, Japan merely used the rest of Asia as a tool for her own Imperialistic gains. Since Japan is a resource poor country, she primarily relied on stealing raw materials from the Asian mainland. The Chinese resisted furiously against Japan's expansion, but China was much too behind, with both civil wars and a revolution. By the 1930's, pretty much the entire area that we'd call "East Asia" was under Japanese control. The KMT (military rulers of China) were troubled by Mao Zedong's Communist rebels and Japan's increasing expansion. Japan's Taishou Democracy (took place in the 20's) came to an end when military dictatorship came to power. One of the most notorious military dictator was by the name of Tojo Hideki (later hung as a war criminal) who desired to have the entire Asia under its control. Although he didn't become ruler of Japan until much after the setting in Senko no Night Raid, politicians like him eventually help created the Second Sino-Japanese War... Anybody want to add something? Expand something? Critic something? Do it here, and try not to do so much in the episodes thread. |
 Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
| There are some things I want to add, because I think that this shows a very one-sided view towards the development of the conflict in the Pacific area before and during WW2. It's like saying that National Socialism in Germany rose to power only because of the evil and violent trait of the Germans...which magically seems to have vanished after the country was burned to the ground and reconstructed as a wall against Russia. The isolation of Japan would have probably even continued, if it hadn't been for the American's who desperately wanted to gain back Japan as a trading post within the Pacific region. The country itself was peaceful and if it would be taken over by Western Forces, they would have had a strong outpost there. Japan was more or less forcefully developed towards the standards of a western nation, which had happened with many Asian countries during colonialism. They had to adapt to Western standards and not long after they had adapted and changed the countries structure towards a more European ideal. Many aspects were taken from Prussia, which was quite progressive at the end of the 19th, beginning of the 20th century, which also led to the development of a quasi-democracy, the Taisho-era which you already mentioned. By the time the idea of the Greater East-Asia Co-Prosperity sphere was conceived (at the end of the 19th century) it was actually thought out as a plan to unite East-Asia as one ruling power under one nation, to ensure freedom...but what sounds good on paper and in manuscripts is of course not safe from political manipulation. So the military and the upper class during the Shôwa era started using it as a motive for the conquering of all East-Asia, similar to what Germany did under the ideal of an Aric society and Social Cleansing...most of the public wasn't even interested enough (much less knowledgable enough) to actually understand what those words meant. While the Second Sino-Japanese War was of course a war of agression, mostly designed as an individual act of one of the three Axis powers, I think it is too complex to actually draw the first war and the Russo-Japanese war into this just to prove the point of Japan being imperialistic. Being just opened to the rest of the world again, Japan of course tried to catch up as a world nation...so in the end if you want to search for a point in history you might blame the Americans for opening Japan again. Or maybe the European monarchs and the church, which partly drove the country into Sakoku. I think it's easy to just point to a conventiently placed, terrible point in history and blame the one who was at fault then...but reducing the whole Pacific Conflict during those decades down to one event, which is mostly the Nanking Massacre, is quite shortsighted, at least that is my opinion. |
Waiting for: God Eater (PSP) 私が、探偵だからよ。 |
| Nice post, overall, I must say. I'll critic some points ]I think it is too complex to actually draw the first war and the Russo-Japanese war into this just to prove the point of Japan being imperialistic.[/quote said: Why would you say this, though? After the first Sino-Japanese war, Japan gained Taiwan and Korea (well, not immediately, but close enough). Japan used Taiwan and Korea as strategic points to counter China and Russia, while expanding its influence into the rest of Asia. Sounds pretty imperialistic to me. Even if you do argue it's not, then at least it was a foreshadowing of Japan's future imperialistic goals at that time. ]I think it's easy to just point to a conventiently placed, terrible point in history and blame the one who was at fault then...but reducing the whole Pacific Conflict during those decades down to one event, which is mostly the Nanking Massacre, is quite shortsighted, at least that is my opinion.[/quote said: True, but the Nanjing Massacre was brought up to illustrate one of Japan's most notorious massacres. I don't think we're trying to limit the whole Pacific War to just the Nanjing Massacre. In fact, Senko no Night Raid took place a few years before Nanjing, so the show's probably not even going to go there. Also, no one is pardoning the Americans or the European Imperialists. However, to say that the Westerners should be blamed for Japan's actions is actually a common debating tool used by Japanese ultranationalists themselves. The Westerners were not very good teachers when it comes to treating countries that are not as developed, but that does not mean it is OK for Japan to do the same. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
guyklc said: Why would you say this, though? After the first Sino-Japanese war, Japan gained Taiwan and Korea (well, not immediately, but close enough). Japan used Taiwan and Korea as strategic points to counter China and Russia, while expanding its influence into the rest of Asia. Sounds pretty imperialistic to me. Even if you do argue it's not, then at least it was a foreshadowing of Japan's future imperialistic goals at that time. The problem is that the events that lead to the first war was not exclusivly built on Japan's aim to expand it's territory, but also on a military conflict that rose up between China and Japan over how to intervene in Korea. To limit those wars to simple acts of imperialistic advances comes across as rather populistic and borders on propaganda. Of course we can criticize every country for it's military actions through which they gained power, but there was always a loser but also a winner. To solely criticize Japan for it's Imperialism back then seems rather weak, there would have to be a much larger discussion about imperialism in general to discuss wether or not it was still right to act like that at the turn towards the 20th century. True, but the Nanjing Massacre was brought up to illustrate one of Japan's most notorious massacres. I don't think we're trying to limit the whole Pacific War to just the Nanjing Massacre. In fact, Senko no Night Raid took place a few years before Nanjing, so the show's probably not even going to go there. Also, no one is pardoning the Americans or the European Imperialists. However, to say that the Westerners should be blamed for Japan's actions is actually a common debating tool used by Japanese ultranationalists themselves. The Westerners were not very good teachers when it comes to treating countries that are not as developed, but that does not mean it is OK for Japan to do the same. It is of course not right for Japan to have done the same...have done, not do. But it is a question where to search for actuall roots towards the problem and how to prevent them, simple fingerpointing does not lead anywhere. I think another fact why the 2nd Sino-Japanese War is still so actively discussed across the world and East-Asia is that the following wars were much harder to grasp, the Vietnam and Korean War being both proxy wars of the much larger Cold War. During the 2nd Sino-Japanese War there was a single agressor, namely Japan, which could be blamed, but I think it is wrong to still blame them for all the horrors in East Asia until today. Of course every war can be traced back to another war, but this is a never ending cycle, which will not end that easily. I also abhore the demonization of the Japanese based on what a selective part of the population ordered during a time of crisis throughout the whole world. |
| Waiting for: God Eater (PSP) 私が、探偵だからよ。 |
The problem is that the events that lead to the first war was not exclusivly built on Japan's aim to expand it's territory, but also on a military conflict that rose up between China and Japan over how to intervene in Korea. True, but you can't deny that imperialism played a large role in it. Therefore, I think it's fair to say the first Sino-Japanese war was based on Imperialism to a certain degree. Also, the Russo-Japanese War is imperialism, plain and simple. Japan wanted to expand her influence into Northeastern China (some of you might know this as Manchuria, but most Chinese hate the term because we think it's a term coined by Japan to divide China). Also, Northeastern China is known for having RESOURCES (even today, much of China's domestic petroleom come from this area). Wanting to acquire land that does not belong to you because that land has resources is certainly imperialistic. But it is a question where to search for actuall roots towards the problem and how to prevent them, simple fingerpointing does not lead anywhere. I think another fact why the 2nd Sino-Japanese War is still so actively discussed across the world and East-Asia is that the following wars were much harder to grasp, the Vietnam and Korean War being both proxy wars of the much larger Cold War. During the 2nd Sino-Japanese War there was a single agressor, namely Japan, which could be blamed, but I think it is wrong to still blame them for all the horrors in East Asia until today. Of course every war can be traced back to another war, but this is a never ending cycle, which will not end that easily. I don't understand your views on why I'm trying to "single" out Japan. I do not condone Western Imperialism, but since the topic is on Japanese Imperialism, of course I am talking more on Japanese Imperialism. The Westerners were no saints, but when it comes to Japanese war crimes, the Japanese have only themselves to hold accountable. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
| Should I point out the BLOODY DAMN history of every single nation/race/country on Earth to show how this discussion is going nowhere? To sum up: human stupidity, cruelty and greed has NO BOUND on nation/race/country... BUT, this IS a thread to discuss Japanese Propaganda and War Crimes. Of course it's focused on that. If you want, you can open a thread on Chinese Propaganda as well, but that's not the point. Actually, WHAT is the main point of this thread again? An "informative" thread? A debate? Private duel between guyklc and seizonsha??? You are too hardcore on this. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
wakka9ca said: Should I point out the BLOODY DAMN history of every single nation/race/country on Earth to show how this discussion is going nowhere? To sum up: human stupidity, cruelty and greed has NO BOUND on nation/race/country... BUT, this IS a thread to discuss Japanese Propaganda and War Crimes. Of course it's focused on that. If you want, you can open a thread on Chinese Propaganda as well, but that's not the point. Actually, WHAT is the main point of this thread again? An "informative" thread? A debate? Private duel between guyklc and seizonsha??? You are too hardcore on this. The point of this thread is so that people who are interested in debating on the historical background of this anime can come here and discuss instead of spamming up the episode thread. It's obvious that YOU don't want to, so if anything else, it's YOU who should leave this thread. I made this thread so that people like us can stop harrassing and dragging in other people in the episode thread. If you voluntarily choose to enter this thread, you have no one else to blame but yourself. Don't like this thread? Don't have anything relevant and on-topic to post on? Fine, then leave this thread; no one will miss you anyways. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
guyklc said: wakka9ca said: Should I point out the BLOODY DAMN history of every single nation/race/country on Earth to show how this discussion is going nowhere? To sum up: human stupidity, cruelty and greed has NO BOUND on nation/race/country... BUT, this IS a thread to discuss Japanese Propaganda and War Crimes. Of course it's focused on that. If you want, you can open a thread on Chinese Propaganda as well, but that's not the point. Actually, WHAT is the main point of this thread again? An "informative" thread? A debate? Private duel between guyklc and seizonsha??? You are too hardcore on this. The point of this thread is so that people who are interested in debating on the historical background of this anime can come here and discuss instead of spamming up the episode thread. It's obvious that YOU don't want to, so if anything else, it's YOU who should leave this thread. I made this thread so that people like us can stop harrassing and dragging in other people in the episode thread. If you voluntarily choose to enter this thread, you have no one else to blame but yourself. Don't like this thread? Don't have anything relevant and on-topic to post on? Fine, then leave this thread; no one will miss you anyways. By the way, I was probably the first to bring this matter up in MAL forums. As soon as I heard about the summary/trailers, my face went :/ and I knew that this will be sensible topic. If I had more time, I would have pointed out the things I find slightly problematic with both seizonsha's and your stance on this matter. The following will be my next attempt to bring this thread off-topic and troll. Obviously, I have no degree in Sino-Japanese history, nor any degree in history at all. So my viewpoints mostly hold personal opinion + my familiarity with both Chinese and Japanese culture (and actually, history as well, to some extend....not to mention I have been exposed to "propaganda" and "brainwashing" from both sides LOL....I still survived) To sum up (this will get personal lol, so I will try not to use historical facts for now) seizonsha: Bad points: Can't feel but that he is too protective and gives too much justification on Japanese's act of war. Really, the reality is that war happened and cruel things happened. What matters is that it happened. Whether Japan is imperialistic or not, it still happened. Who said a so-called democratic nation can't make bad and cruel decisions? Good points: good to point out that Japan should stop being demonized by the rest of Asia. However, you should also know that it's really a two-way thing. Many modern Japanese tend to take the stance "it's the past" or "the other Asian countries are too hardcore on this matter" or "Japan has done enough". All of these are *somehow* (but not fully) valid and understandable stances...from a point of view of a Japanese. If I were born in Japan instead, I would have taken these stances as well...Why? Because the victim countries' current stance can be blamed too (I'll discuss this point later) What is unacceptable is that some Japanese actually think that the Asian countries just want to rip them off by wanting compensation. That is truly NOT acceptable (although it has some truths in it). However, these came mostly from internet forums I visit... so I don't know how many of them are trolls...Again, some of them may say : China is communist and did such such bad things and bla bla you shouldn't criticize Japan... Clearly, I think China and communism should also stop being demonized. You can already start seeing the vicious circle around this matter: racism, nationalism and mutual contempt between Japan and China. And thus comes the muddy historical part. Have you read recent articles on how Chinese and Japanese historian are disagreeing on history despite their attempt to collaborate on that history project. As for guyklc: +10 for you for staying civilized despite my obvious attempt to troll this thread. That was just to test to see if you are reasonable people and if it's worth for me to stay in this thread. The usual things that I wanted to avoid are ultra nationalists (I highly doubt they are on MAL... anime is a mostly Japanese thing) So I apologize for my obviously hypocritical stance (insert evil laugh) and attempt to stand on moral high grounds (should I insert another evil laugh here?). You may be disturbed on how not serious I am on a topic that should be serious (just count the number of victims and you should know better than everyone how serious this topic is). But I am just a troll on anything related to Sino-Japanese relations. However, the only problem I have is that this thread should have come after the anime starts heavy propaganda (if it even does that). This still remains as an anime discussion. I understand your frustration that people tend to underestimate the gravity of the Japanese war crimes, or their attempt to justify it. But still, to conduct a good discussion, we need more than just you and seizonsha. It would be great if you open another thread a more general discussion on Sino-Japanese relationships. Historical facts are facts (well... half the times) and debate on it are left to the historians. What could be interesting as discussion will be finding out what are the stance/opinions both Chinese and Japanese have on this matter. Thus marks the end of my attempt to drive this thread off-topic. |
wakka9caApr 13, 2010 7:55 AM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| It may have come off as a bit to protective of Japan as a nationalistic construct, but I purposely did not go deeper into the valid points that were already made against the Japanese imperialistic movements during this Crisis in the Pacific region. After studying Japan (especially modern society and culture) for almost 3 years now, I may have taken a more Pro-Japan stance then other people would have, I admit that. But still, there are many facts that are in fact often ignored when discussing this topic, concerning how Japan developed on the inside up to this point and from this point onwards. Those viewpoints may lead me to defend them, because many things, as it often happens in history, can be broken down to much smaller and more complicated points that can't be blamed on an individual nation alone. For example, while it was of course Germany, Japan and Italy who started WW2, to blame everything that happened, leading up to those events, only on them is terribly shortsighted I think. Especially internet forums on this matter can't be taken into account as an objective source and I would say that is valid for every political topic. Most people that are drawn to those discussions are political hardliners, who follow a single-minded and very narrow approach...at least that is my experiences that I had when I was trying to be interested in my own countries politics (Germany). Here, too, it is mostly the extreme left and right fraction which is drawn into those discussions, of course calling for completely ludicrous solutions. Most Japanese that I had to do with have a rather educated approach towards this topic, but of course I'm mostly engaging in discussion with students or teachers. But as always, the educated people are in a minority...as there are many people in Japan who believe porpagandistic garbage about the non-existence of war-crimes and the absolute innocence of 'the home-country', there are many Americans who still belive that the Vietnam or Korean war was 'the war to save America from communism'. The compensation of war crimes is a difficult topic, especially in a world, where almost every country is so far in debts, that society should have collapsed into chaotic war long ago. It is understandable how a country can refuse that out of self-preservation, I think. It is, of course, no humanitarian approach and can be criticized on a moral level, but on political level I see it less as 'looking down on the other Asian countries' as a misguided attempt of preserving their own. It is of course their right to do so, as China has formally agreed to waive the right of compensation. Of course the world was in turmoil right after the war and it is questionable how 'just' contracts from this era are by todays standards...but that is a whole other discussion that would call for more knowledge about the exact reason for China to agree to those contracts...which I right now can't quite recall. |
| Waiting for: God Eater (PSP) 私が、探偵だからよ。 |
| Lol, wakka, I'm not sure whether to take your posts seriously anymore, with you playing the devil's advocate so frequently. Thanks for being the mediator between us, though. @seizonsha: I am still confused by your views. You claim that it is unfair to blame Japan solely for the invasion of China during WWII or something? Because it was the Westerner who taught Japan imperialism? Although I think it's great that someone is taking the opposite side in a rational manner, to repeatedly emphasize that makes you sound like that Indian judge during the war crime trial who pardoned all the Japanese war criminals because he thought Westerners had no right to point fingers at Japan. I'm starting to fear that if you were one of the judges, you too, would vote not guilty on all of the war criminals! And I don't think most Chinese blame solely the Japanese for imperialism; if you hang out on Chinese websites, you'd know that hating on the West is more popular than hating on Japan right now (of course, this only applies to the idiotic ultra-nationalists, and not to Chinese in general). It's just that, though, Japan actively denies its war crimes, while most Westerners are either aware or completely ignorant of history altogether. Very few Westerners completely deny the horrors of Imperialism; this cannot be said for the Japanese. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
| This post is not targeted towards anyone but is bringing some insight on war, history and humanity itself. I mean, you have to understand that Japan is a country that lacks resources. So it is one of the reasons of the rise of imperialism especially after the Meiji Restoration in Japan. So that was a reason for Japan to try imitating the West. I mean history repeats itself. I live in Canada, and early settlers were exterminating Native Americans like animals. Then, everything were set against them (laws, etc) for a few centuries. Nowadays, the population of Natives can pretty much be considered "close to extinction". Then again, unfortunately for the Natives, they lost. The settlers won. It's really the victor's history as Canada do not seem to "suffer" (except by a few protests and barricades once and a while) the consequences as severely as Japan (who lost the war). Imagine an alternate future in which Japan won the war. Imagine yourself as a Japanese-born in that future. Can you really blame yourself for being totally indifferent to the fate of the oppressed? Sometimes, you can't really blame the people for being ignorant since that's how they were brought up. And really, if you ask Canadians, they don't really care since it has been hundreds of years since then. Same thing can be said of the WW2. One major argument sometimes given by Neo-Nazi or radical left groups are the "victor's history". From their perspective, the US and the rest of Europe were in the wrong and "hiding" the "truth" using propaganda. In a way, it's not wrong...but I just don't think neo-nazis have a "better truth" than the rest of us. Even you look at the "victims" and "oppressor", look at what happened to Jews after WW2: the creation of Israel. But then, what happened to the Palestinians already living there? Did they receive justice? From one point of view, the victims just became oppressors. Even during WW2, what happened to the victims of the Atomic bombs? Sadako and the Senbazuru? What is the boundary between victims and oppressors? Should the politicians be blamed? But then, weren't the soldiers who performed the atrocity? What about the families of the soldiers who died? If you look at China in the end of Imperial rule...it was weak, destroyed and pretty much humiliated by the West (Opium war). But is that the only reason? Officials were corrupted. Government was corrupted. Hundreds of years of refusing western science and technology has made the country so behind in every aspect of civilization. The once and mighty Oriental civilization is not more. Warlords emerged. Rape, thievery, injustice, oppression and massacres were occurring like common bread in these times even BEFORE the Japanese came (and just did it more systematically in certain city due to certain reasons). But then, did the Japanese try to kill every single Chinese is sight? Not really. If they did that, who will work for them? Can you deny that they did not bring stability at some point? Twisted logic indeed. Possible propaganda from that era. But I recall an old Chinese man who hated the Russians more than the Japanese because the Russians raped, killed and burned his village back then, from random raids (this is not even really war, but more like bandit soldiers). I've known people who hated the Koreans working under Japanese more than the actual Japanese masters, as they were even more cruel than their masters. Thus earning them the famous pejorative (and clearly racist and offensive) "Korean dogs". One strange but somehow twisted justification of Japan invading China was "preserve" the Chinese culture (that Japanese once admired so much... writing (actually ironic how many modern Chinese words are actually made by the Japanese, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasei-kango#Words_.27Made_in_Japan.27), clothing (notice the similarity between kimono and Tang dynasty clothing), philosophy (it is surprising how Japanese, Chinese and Koreans all think alike in many ways.... because of the influential Confucianism and Buddhism)) from the now-corrupted China. Of course, nobody believes this BS anymore. But if maybe China wasn't so weak back then, Japan wouldn't have dared invading it. But then, can you blame China (i.e. they reap what they sow). Not really. War between CCP and KMT. CCP won and said bad things about KMT. KMT saying bad things about CCP in Taiwan. But really, they were more similar than they would like to think. All these are just tip of the iceberg on how muddy human history is. I believe the real way to understand it would be to live through in a completely objective way. But that is impossible for a human since he/she has association with at least one of the parties involved. But if you put on the hat of a true observer, you will notice that everything is much more complicated than just "Japan invaded China and did wrong things". So it's VERY hard to point out the black and white when dealing with humans. After all, we are talking about humans here. |
wakka9caApr 13, 2010 5:03 PM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Your post is full of social darwinism. Although I suppose you COULD argue that way, are you saying you'd have no problem if China extinguishes Japan for control of the East China Sea? Right now, the number one problem between China and Japan (even more so than the history problem, in my eyes) is the competition for the control of the East China Sea. Whoever controls the East China Sea controls East Asia. Japan has its Ryukyu Islands, while China has its cities on the eastern coasts. You wouldn't really blame anyone if the two countries go to war because of the East China Sea, right? Not trying to start a fight or anything, just trying to point out what could possibly be a flaw in your argument. I don't really think we can use survival of the fittest or victor's justice when we're dealing with such a mass scale of atrocities, because I think that is justification for future atrocities. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
guyklc said: Your post is full of social darwinism. Although I suppose you COULD argue that way, are you saying you'd have no problem if China extinguishes Japan for control of the East China Sea? Right now, the number one problem between China and Japan (even more so than the history problem, in my eyes) is the competition for the control of the East China Sea. Whoever controls the East China Sea controls East Asia. Japan has its Ryukyu Islands, while China has its cities on the eastern coasts. You wouldn't really blame anyone if the two countries go to war because of the East China Sea, right? Not trying to start a fight or anything, just trying to point out what could possibly be a flaw in your argument. I don't really think we can use survival of the fittest or victor's justice when we're dealing with such a mass scale of atrocities, because I think that is justification for future atrocities. I'm not saying the ones most fit will survive. I'm saying it's hard to pinpoint the blame on any particular nation. There are more than multiple POV on this subject. Evil vs. Good. Oppressors vs. Victims are very black and white concepts. And unfortunately, no matter how one can despise social Darwinism, it still happens to some extent. It's not RIGHT, but it just happens. You can't really argue about that. And one of my point was that victor's justice is USED as an excuse by some people, not that it is justified. If you pay close attention, notice how many questions I asked without any answers to them. I was more giving out topic discussions than anything else. Let people reflect on these questions. |
wakka9caApr 13, 2010 6:52 PM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| I think guyklc kinda missed the point of that argument... |
wakka9ca said: guyklc said: Your post is full of social darwinism. Although I suppose you COULD argue that way, are you saying you'd have no problem if China extinguishes Japan for control of the East China Sea? Right now, the number one problem between China and Japan (even more so than the history problem, in my eyes) is the competition for the control of the East China Sea. Whoever controls the East China Sea controls East Asia. Japan has its Ryukyu Islands, while China has its cities on the eastern coasts. You wouldn't really blame anyone if the two countries go to war because of the East China Sea, right? Not trying to start a fight or anything, just trying to point out what could possibly be a flaw in your argument. I don't really think we can use survival of the fittest or victor's justice when we're dealing with such a mass scale of atrocities, because I think that is justification for future atrocities. I'm not saying the ones most fit will survive. I'm saying it's hard to pinpoint the blame on any particular nation. There are more than multiple POV on this subject. Evil vs. Good. Oppressors vs. Victims are very black and white concepts. And unfortunately, no matter how one can despise social Darwinism, it still happens to some extent. It's not RIGHT, but it just happens. You can't really argue about that. And one of my point was that victor's justice is USED as an excuse by some people, not that it is justified. If you pay close attention, notice how many questions I asked without any answers to them. I was more giving out topic discussions than anything else. Let people reflect on these questions. Japan was the aggressor. Is that something that should be debated? As the aggressor, of course Japan should be blamed. The reasoning behind it all may be a lot more complicated for reasons you've stated, but in the end, Japan was the aggressor and lost the war. Therefore, if Japan has any sense of moral obligations, she will reflect on the war with remorse instead of downplaying war crimes while crying onto America's leg each time China and South Korea protest. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
guyklc said: wakka9ca said: guyklc said: Your post is full of social darwinism. Although I suppose you COULD argue that way, are you saying you'd have no problem if China extinguishes Japan for control of the East China Sea? Right now, the number one problem between China and Japan (even more so than the history problem, in my eyes) is the competition for the control of the East China Sea. Whoever controls the East China Sea controls East Asia. Japan has its Ryukyu Islands, while China has its cities on the eastern coasts. You wouldn't really blame anyone if the two countries go to war because of the East China Sea, right? Not trying to start a fight or anything, just trying to point out what could possibly be a flaw in your argument. I don't really think we can use survival of the fittest or victor's justice when we're dealing with such a mass scale of atrocities, because I think that is justification for future atrocities. I'm not saying the ones most fit will survive. I'm saying it's hard to pinpoint the blame on any particular nation. There are more than multiple POV on this subject. Evil vs. Good. Oppressors vs. Victims are very black and white concepts. And unfortunately, no matter how one can despise social Darwinism, it still happens to some extent. It's not RIGHT, but it just happens. You can't really argue about that. And one of my point was that victor's justice is USED as an excuse by some people, not that it is justified. If you pay close attention, notice how many questions I asked without any answers to them. I was more giving out topic discussions than anything else. Let people reflect on these questions. Japan was the aggressor. Is that something that should be debated? As the aggressor, of course Japan should be blamed. The reasoning behind it all may be a lot more complicated for reasons you've stated, but in the end, Japan was the aggressor and lost the war. Therefore, if Japan has any sense of moral obligations, she will reflect on the war with remorse instead of downplaying war crimes while crying onto America's leg each time China and South Korea protest. No, Japan was the aggressor. And it payed (but not enough according to many) for that (two atomic bombs and all of the rest of Asia shunning them for the past 60 years). But the question is, how far does the title of "aggressor" holds? Japan was an aggressor in WW2. The Nanjing Massacre happened. It should NEVER be forgotten. But really, should the Japanese people carry the complete blame for the entirety of the war for the rest of time? When should everyone reconcile and move on? According to the rest of Asia, Japan haven't apologized and admitted their mistake enough. And we can't move on as long as this is not done. One problem is that a great deal of Japanese politicians have a very right wing stance on this. Revisionists. Trying to downplay the war. I couldn't deny that some Japanese populace are "brainwashed" by this as well. And of course, as long as they're there, the rest of Asia will never be satisfied. But have you thought about the other side as well? What about how Japanese were called demons in Chinese textbooks? About how children are taught that the Japanese are the evil incarnate? About the ultra-nationalist nature of current Chinese population? Same thing for South and North Korea. Hate has been taught to all Asian children about Japan. Do you seriously think that the Chinese population will forgive Japanese even if every single Japanese person bow down to apologize?? Do you think China, Korea will ever forgive them no matter what they do? Will bowing bring the dead back alive? Would the rest of Asia just be satisfied even after Japan admitted ALL of his war crimes? I would say yes AND no. Yes because if Japan takes the initiative, it will definitely start a good initiative to remediate the situation. No because as long as young Chinese and Korea are given a vision of demonized Japan, it will never happen. The reason why everyone is so SENSIBLE to Japan related topic is simply because Japanese are being too demonized. Most of Asia think of Japan as a "tamed" demon, but a demon nonetheless. That is why everyone is so sensible to every single move Japan makes. For sure, history must NOT be forgotten, but there is a limit to much biasing you can put. This trend is actually slowing fading from generation to generation. So hopefully the hate will fade away, while the history and facts on war crimes will remain. To achieve this, BOTH parties have to make an effort on this matter. This is not a problem that can be solved by one party. We are in a vicious circle of hate and denial. To break circle it is easier if everyone take back a step and reconcile. And also, I am just using arguments from both ends of the stick. I'm not saying Japan is not the aggressor, but I encourage you to look at this matter from both perspective, not just "Japan is wrong", but also look at Japan's current society and politics. Look at what Chinese and Korean children are taught in school and from movies. Imo, most of the Asian countries are behaving like morons on this matter, including Japan, China and Korea. And they are all using propaganda (seriously, who doesn't use propaganda, it's so useful tool to manipulate the people, especially when you start the conditioning young ---> ideal choice for any government :P) I am simply taking a defensive on Japan because seizonsha is not here. I clearly have arguments against Japan on their mistakes as soon as he gets here :) It's just I can debate that with you. (we need antagonizing POV to continue to debate... the world will be infinitely boring if everyone agreed...as long as no blood is shed, dissension is allowed LOL) |
wakka9caApr 14, 2010 6:48 AM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
Yves said: @ guyklc: I think you should just quit this. Understand that this is an anime forum and that most of the users here are madly in love with Japan and think it's the best thing in the world. It's not worth your time to argue with anyone one of them. And besides, this is a forum to discuss a hobby (anime/manga), not to have intense debates about sensitive historical matters. Well, you can like anime and manga... and still hate Japan for its war crimes :/ Yves said: [edit] wakka9ca, it's not right when you generalize and say that all non-Japanese Asians are spiteful towards Japan. (Unless you meant to correct yourself by saying "This trend is actually slowing fading from generation to generation.") LOL by the way, many Japanese think like what I said. That is why I said it in the first place. And I am Asian myself. I think I was having a bit too much fun in that post lol. Yves said: Most of the teenagers and young adults probably don't care at all about this. Many of them are fans of anime/manga and Japanese culture in general. :) You shouldn't say things like "the Chinese population," because that is a generalization and is pretty much racism. Instead, you could say something along the lines of "Oh that Chinese government!..." instead of assuming that all Chinese are like that. Well, I am still against the demonization of the CCP. But you are right, blaming the government is certainly reasonable (it's their propaganda). But i am talking about the population and their beliefs. You'd be surprised by the level of nationalism of Chinese youth. Go to any Chinese forums and look around. Of course, there are more and more people with milder stance on Japan as well. But being branded as "brainwashed" or traitor is not uncommon for these people. And of course, many of them (nationalists) are trolls. And internet forums are usually not reflective of popular opinion. Due to the large influx of Japanese anime/manga/culture, youths are indeed getting less and less hate on Japan. "This trend is actually slowing fading from generation to generation" And LOL I have a final exam tomorrow. Really no time to elaborate. Thus you may have misunderstood my point due it being written in a hurry. And you should also see the reaction of Chinese fans to Senko. Some don't care, but some are certainty NOT convinced. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Interesting posts, all. Anyways, I think it's wrong to hate the Japanese of this generation for crimes their ancestors committed. However, I and many Chinese are not convinced that Japan has reflected upon her war crimes. Ultranationalism is rising again in Japan (and a brand new far right wing party, Tachiagare Nippon, might stand a chance in permeating mainstream politics this time!), and I am concerned that the same atrocities might happen again. @Yves: I agree that many weaboos blindly agree with Japan on everything, but that's a pretty strong generalization to say everyone on this site is a pro-Japanese fascism. Also, I believe anime should be a medium of entertainment that brings people of different background together, and not another way of projecting political propaganda. I'm sure there are others who feel the same, and I feel pretty angry that there are some people out there who (Kobayashi Yoshinori) use anime/manga as a way of attracting young people into supporting the revival of Japanese fascism. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
guyklc said: @Yves: I agree that many weaboos blindly agree with Japan on everything, but that's a pretty strong generalization to say everyone on this site is a pro-Japanese fascism. Also, I believe anime should be a medium of entertainment that brings people of different background together, and not another way of projecting political propaganda. I'm sure there are others who feel the same, and I feel pretty angry that there are some people out there who (Kobayashi Yoshinori) use anime/manga as a way of attracting young people into supporting the revival of Japanese fascism. ^^^ This. Exactly. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
And you being "concerned that the same atrocities might happen again" is just silly. Why would a well-respected and developed country like Japan, under even the craziest of leaders, repeat what it did during WWII in today's global society? Be reasonable here! Japan was a well-respected country before WWII; in fact, Japan was the only non-Western country that the Western countries look up to as equals. Also, America was a well-respected country before our invasion of Iraq :/ And there you go saying, "I and many Chinese are not convinced that Japan has reflected upon her war crimes," as if all Japanese people can be grouped into a single entity with a single opinion and ideology. I'm sorry, but I always get riled up when I see that being done. No offense, but at this point, I'm starting to question of you are one of those weaboos I mentioned that I hate so much. I said JAPAN has not reflected on her war crimes; how is this equivalent to all Japanese people in general? It is a well-known fact that very few Japanese leaders have apologized for the war; the vast majority of them just said something along the lines of: it is regrettable that bad things happened to the other Asians in WWII. That would be hypocritical. :P If the owner of some bookstore burned down your house and stole your car, would you still visit and buy from his store when his son (who is completely innocent) takes over the shop after he has been thrown in jail? If you feel that this is a "like father, like son" situation, then you'll hold a grudge against the son as well as the father. He'll be like a "demon" to you and you won't buy from the bookstore. On the other hand, you can realize that the son had nothing to do with the crime and be a regular customer at the store. You'll see the bookstore for what it is now, not what it was before with the previous owner. Way to mix politics with entertainment. Who is the one generalizing Japanese now? Unless you can prove to me how anime companies like SHAFT, KyoAni, JC Staff, etc. helped funded Japanese Imperialists during WWII, I see nothing hypocritical about supporting the anime company. I will never, of course, give a penny to Japanese mangaka who are imperialists and revisionists, such as Kobayashi Yoshinori's works. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
guyklc said: I will never, of course, give a penny to Japanese mangaka who are imperialists and revisionists, such as Kobayashi Yoshinori's works. Yeah, Gomanism is the extreme case. That series of manga is 200% propaganda and insult to history. Right-wing is scary in Japan. But as an outsider, I can't really vote against it....So it's really up to the Japanese people. With economic difficulties and etc, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a sudden rise of right-wing power. I think what Yves was trying to say is similar to what I said in one of my previous post. He is trying to detach the present from the past. However, this is bordering the "muddy" zone I described earlier (i.e. you can't just forget the past (humans repeats history over and over again and same mistakes are often forgotten), but you can't always cling to the past like a fanatic. Moderation is important...but the question is: how moderate is moderate?) |
wakka9caApr 15, 2010 6:22 PM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
You don't look up to your equal. That's a contradictory statement. My bad for poor English wording; English is not my mother tongue. It doesn't change the fact though, that back then, the Europeans "saw" (there, better word) the Japanese as the only Asians equal to the Westerners. I'm sorry. Are you likening the invasion of Iraq to genocide? It's a war that was started for political and economic reasons, but it cannot be compared to what the Japanese military did during WWII. The gravity of the two wars are of course similar, but it proves my point that even well-respected country can do something as retarded as starting a war that costs innumerable amount of innocent lives. Please tell me. Does Japan have a mind of its own. Is it a bunch of islands in the Pacific that possesses thought? No. When you say "Japan," you're referring to its people. Few of the "Japanese leaders" have apologized for what the country did during WWII, sure. The leaders back in the 50s who were associated directly with the war may not have, shame on them. BUT the leaders now can't do anything. They're a whole different generation that has nothing to do with the atrocities of the war. What they are doing is separating themselves from their forerunners. They don't need to apologize for what they did! And besides, this is the "JAPANESE LEADERS" talking. If, by saying "Japan," you mean the leaders, then say that. Make it clear. The leaders REPRESENT the country. The country has something called an official stance, and it is the government's responsibility to take that stance. Japanese courts have denied reparations to individuals who were harmed by Japanese Imperialism TIME AND TIME AGAIN. The leaders do not have to keep apologizing; only apologize if they mean it. But above all, stop bringing the history into light. Did you know? In the 70's, when China and Japan normalized ties, China tried to help COVER UP Japanese war crimes in textbooks in order to form good ties with Japan. China waived reparations and wanted Japan's support in fighting against the Soviet Union. It wasn't until the 80's when Nakasone Yasuhiro visited the Yasukuni Shrine and supported textbook revisions did Chinese feel angry and upset. So it's actually the Japanese who clung onto the past; numerous history revision attempts by the Atarashii Rekishi Kyokasho wo Tsukurukai (sorry, I don't think that publishing company has a shorter name) to publish history textbooks that whitewashes history is still ongoing. It's the JAPANESE who cannot let go of history; it's just that their attempts also force the Chinese to not let go of history as well. If the right-wingers would shut up, I guarantee you, there would be a lot less controversies between the two countries. hey (the anime companies) are all part of what Japan is now. What in the world are you saying? The anime companies do NOT represent Japan or the Japanese people. Likewise, there are some people (like Kobayashi Yoshinori) who work for anime companies, but do not represent the anime company's political stance at all. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
| Although I agree that the right-wing should just shut up. I don't agree that this situation can be solved by efforts from Japan alone. Both sides have to make compromises to make this work. An initiative from Japan will be great. However, we are in a deadlock here. Very difficult for Japan to make the initiative because it would hurt their national pride. Same thing could be said of the other Asian countries. They will definitely NOT make an initiative on this matter. So it would be just letting time and long buildup of good events and relations to wash this away. But any small negative event (one visit to the Yasukuni shrine for instance) would erase all work previously done. That is how hard it is to mend the relationships. And yes, China tried to form good ties with Japan. It worked. Until some idiot in the Japanese politics decided that the past history wasn't glorious enough. However, you can't deny that anti-Japan sentiments in all Asia is a one-sided thing (i.e. blame everything on the Japanese) You can't really deny that BOTH sides use propaganda. Pointing fingers on who is to blame does not solve the problem at all. So I think all parties should just sit back and do some constructive work on how to solve this problem. And by the way, the current Sino-Japanese relations are not that bad. Sure, some disputed rocks between Japan and Korea and China. But other than that, the current Japanese PM (let's see how long he'll last with all these scandals) does show a very friendly attitude to his Asian neighbors. Despite all the hate and talk, we all know Japan and China are good economic buddies. So you can be optimistic sometimes. But not too much though. The extreme right wings always lurk behind you (evil laugh). |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| @wakka: Sorry, but I think Japan has to solve this alone. We've seen too many times that the more we try to help Japan recognize its past, the more the right wingers whine. I think one of the best ways to shut the right wingers up, is for the Japanese Emperor to visit China or Korea and publicly apologize on his own will. Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen. And by the way, the current Sino-Japanese relations are not that bad. Sure, some disputed rocks between Japan and Korea and China. But other than that, the current Japanese PM (let's see how long he'll last with all these scandals) does show a very friendly attitude to his Asian neighbors. Despite all the hate and talk, we all know Japan and China are good economic buddies. So you can be optimistic sometimes. But not too much though. The extreme right wings always lurk behind you (evil laugh). I'm not too optimistic; I'm not even sure if the DPJ will stay in power. Plus, there is this new right-wing party, Tachiagare Nippon, that has already entered mainstream politics. Oh well, at least support for the DPJ is currently stronger than the LDP or Tachiagare Nippon, so I guess there's some silver lining. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
guyklc said: @wakka: Sorry, but I think Japan has to solve this alone. We've seen too many times that the more we try to help Japan recognize its past, the more the right wingers whine. I think one of the best ways to shut the right wingers up, is for the Japanese Emperor to visit China or Korea and publicly apologize on his own will. Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever happen. No, because if that will never happen, are you already giving the death sentence to any possible remediation between Japan/Asia? There are other possible alternatives... but it will never happen if the rest of Asia are constantly antagonizing Japan. Think of this as a dispute between two people. What you are asking is an UNILATERAL effort from one party. Having a harsh attitude towards Japan is definitely not helping to solve this. Having the Chinese/Korea population all think Japan owns them something is NOT a good start. You just antagonized most of the Japanese citizens and hurt their national pride (national pride is inherent in all nations) You have to understand that no matter how the past is important, current situation is equally important. Blindly forcing them "you must apologize for what happened 70 years ago" is not going to work. I don't think ANY Japanese citizen will be extremely happy if you told them that. Even IF it was aimed towards their government (the government was voted by the populace anyway). It's like when Chinese people become stingy once you start pointing out the not-so-glorious facts about their great communist party. And if it's just some kind of mention of apology from the Emperor, I think it's not 100% impossible. But the possibility decreases as time goes by. The older the history, the less the incentive to do something about it. And it will be controversial too, the "pride" of Japan as a whole is essentially on the line (from the point of view of the Japanese). All people have pride, you must factor that in and work with that in mind. Essentially what I don't like is just plain bashing of Japan's attitude on war crimes. It's not getting anywhere if the two parties just yell at each other. And please, don't tell me children being taught to hate Japan is right just because Japan didn't apologize properly. It's no better than their "unwillingness" to apologize. So that was what I was talking about when I said both parties have to do something. Of course, current-day anti-Japan propaganda is really fading, but you can't say the racial tension is gone. And seriously, I don't even think Japan apologizing will solve that racial tension. Like the hate between Jews and Palestinians, don't tell me the blame is perfectly on one side and the other side is perfectly innocent. Also, if you ask Japanese citizens if Japan has apologized enough, a good deal of them will say yes. This is because they don't really know what level of apology is required for something that happened before they were born. Like you said, a perfect thing would be for the Imperial family to apologize.... But there has to something major for that to happen. It can't just happen overnight. Here is a list of apologies from Japan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan Of course, this is Wikipedia, so some of them may not be well documented. And any controversial statements made by right-wings screws the effort up. But really, not matter who's in charge. Economic relationships between China and Japan is just too important to be politicized. But really, everything is just politics. Why doesn't Japan apologize? Political reasons. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| You have good points, but I want to point out something about the apology issued by Japan according to wikipedia: if you read them carefully, the VAST majority of all the "apologies" are something along the lines of, "Japan recognizes bad things happened to good Asians during WWII". That's not the same as apologizing. If I break your arm and 20 years later, I said, "it's regrettable that something bad happened to you 20 years ago," is that the same as saying, "I'm sorry for breaking your arm 20 years ago"? Notice I never specified what kind of bad thing happened, and more importantly, I didn't say I was the one who was responsible for breaking your arm. Also, even for the ones that are true apologies, Japan has done very little to back them up. Maybe I am just too pessimistic, but you have to admit, Asians would sooner kill each other than to unite with each other. This is why I actually envy the Europeans for being able to put aside past conflicts and unite as the EU. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
guyklc said: You have good points, but I want to point out something about the apology issued by Japan according to wikipedia: if you read them carefully, the VAST majority of all the "apologies" are something along the lines of, "Japan recognizes bad things happened to good Asians during WWII". That's not the same as apologizing. If I break your arm and 20 years later, I said, "it's regrettable that something bad happened to you 20 years ago," is that the same as saying, "I'm sorry for breaking your arm 20 years ago"? Notice I never specified what kind of bad thing happened, and more importantly, I didn't say I was the one who was responsible for breaking your arm. Also, even for the ones that are true apologies, Japan has done very little to back them up. Maybe I am just too pessimistic, but you have to admit, Asians would sooner kill each other than to unite with each other. This is why I actually envy the Europeans for being able to put aside past conflicts and unite as the EU. I think the statements were actually ok. Most of them have "Japan's actions" in it so they were actually saying Japan caused it. And the Japanese language is a extremely contextual language. It omits obvious facts. It is implicitly stated that Japan was obviously the cause of this. That is why they were declaring the statements on the first place. That's how the language works LOL. It tends to get translated into passive in English, but in fact it employs a very high degree of modesty that doesn't exist in English. So the translation makes it sound.... passive. I don't want to sound like a retard and start quoting these politicians (no, I'm not going to quote them, many of these were ironically close to the right) but "the VAST majority" you mentioned is maybe exaggerating. I think it's pretty clear that they were apologies. Well yeah, don't read too much into the apologies. Most of them were political statements anyway. I don't think honey talking is going to solve the problem. Very pessimistically, it's too late for "apologies" to work. (Think of it as past effective period) I think only time and slow buildup and exchange of culture between Japan and the rest of Asia will mend this problem. Random right-wing statements will harm it while one apology or two doesn't hurt. And Asians are not killing each other as hard as nations of the Middle East. China usually has good ties with South Asia for instance. And the economic pacts too. Still, even EU has its own problems. Look how many years it took for them to finally sign that treaty. And still, problems are occurring due to that unification. I'm not so much for a unified world, so I'm not a big fan of superstates (ANARCHY hell yeah!!! --> kidding XP) Anyway, my attempt to brainwash has failed (evil laugh). Now it's time to watch some anime....and keep studying for exams coming up next week. (It's funny how 10 minutes ago I was doing quantum statistics and now I'm discussing history with you LOL) |
wakka9caApr 16, 2010 6:29 PM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
guyklc said: This is why I actually envy the Europeans for being able to put aside past conflicts and unite as the EU. May I laugh sarcastically?! The European countries are still sueing the hell out of us (Germany), even though some (like Italy) officially said they would not sue for any more reperations. Especially if it's a country like Italy who was on one side with Germany in the Axis powers it becomes ridiculous. So I think even if Japan were to apologize officially and start paying reperations the claims for 'not doing enough' wouldn't stop. If something in EU politics is expected of Germany it's still coming down to the Hitler-hammer as I would call it... I'm perfectly fine with admitting what horrible things some, if not most, Germans did during the rule of the National Socialist party. But holding the country responsible for that after it has been practically remodeled down to it's roots...it's sad, because it makes it impossible for all sides to move on. |
seizonshaApr 19, 2010 11:11 PM
| Waiting for: God Eater (PSP) 私が、探偵だからよ。 |
| You guys have one currency, and even if relationships aren't the best, it's still passable. East Asia is extremely unstable. You have North Korea, who threatens to nuke everyone into oblivion; then you have China, whom nobody trusts; there's Japan, which we've been discussing. Pretty much the only sane country is South Korea... but then, I'm sure someone will point out something bad about that country too. All in all, Europeans get along much better than East Asians do. |
Thanks, person who gave me this on another site a long time ago, lol. |
guyklc said: You guys have one currency, and even if relationships aren't the best, it's still passable. East Asia is extremely unstable. You have North Korea, who threatens to nuke everyone into oblivion; then you have China, whom nobody trusts; there's Japan, which we've been discussing. Pretty much the only sane country is South Korea... but then, I'm sure someone will point out something bad about that country too. All in all, Europeans get along much better than East Asians do. Of course, official relations are more stable and relationship trouble is held to a minimum because we have to co-exist within the EU, somehow we have to present ourself capable against the US. East Asias problems are similar with what we had, but the time directly after WW2 went so differently that it's understandable why they developed into such different directions. I think you said it yourself, each country has it's own fair share of problems presenting themselves to the public world, so it's a bit harsh to expect Japan to take the only step...I know that's not what you want to say, but it's the canon one hears when it comes to the relation towards Japan. |
| Waiting for: God Eater (PSP) 私が、探偵だからよ。 |
guyklc said: You guys have one currency, and even if relationships aren't the best, it's still passable. East Asia is extremely unstable. You have North Korea, who threatens to nuke everyone into oblivion; then you have China, whom nobody trusts; there's Japan, which we've been discussing. Pretty much the only sane country is South Korea... but then, I'm sure someone will point out something bad about that country too. All in all, Europeans get along much better than East Asians do. LOL, the nationalism in South Korea is even worse than that of everyone else. No country is perfect. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
More topics from this board
Poll: » Senkou no Night Raid Episode 5 DiscussionShanaFlame - May 3, 2010 |
42 |
by Dywei
»»
Jan 29, 5:06 AM |
|
Poll: » Senkou no Night Raid Episode 13 Discussion ( 1 2 )tsubasalover - Jun 28, 2010 |
54 |
by SlammyHammy
»»
Apr 19, 2023 8:26 PM |
|
Poll: » Senkou no Night Raid Episode 7 Discussion ( 1 2 )ShanaFlame - May 17, 2010 |
68 |
by oooo3333
»»
Apr 24, 2022 11:11 AM |
|
Poll: » Senkou no Night Raid Episode 9 Discussiontsubasalover - May 31, 2010 |
26 |
by oooo3333
»»
Apr 22, 2022 10:32 PM |
|
Poll: » Senkou no Night Raid Episode 12 Discussiontsubasalover - Jun 21, 2010 |
39 |
by Nurguburu
»»
Dec 6, 2021 10:07 AM |