| Non-Vegans who think they can present a reasonable argument against veganism or in support of carnism may post their reasoning here. Of course you will be refuted and raped with knowledge but don't let that stop you. Vegans who've heard arguments in support of the consumption of meat, dairy, and eggs, or interesting arguments against veganism that they wish to make sense of (i.e. this stupid point flying around that we needed meat to evolve our brains) should post them here as well. I or other members will create secondary threads for topics that require extensive discussion. |
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mrhatnklogs said: I'd like someone to legitimately explain why I shouldn't eat honey or palm oil. I'm vegan but these represent a gap in my knowledge. I think Palm Oil is a similar issue to the rubber trees in China. Because there's such a huge demand for vegetable oil and rubber, they have to clear a shit run of forest land to make room for these trees that produce Palm Oil and Rubber. As far as honey goes I don't eat it for ethical reasons becuase although the overall damage is minimal, the bees are in fact harmed during honey production. For example I'm fairly certain they severely cripple the queen bee too keep the hive from changing locations. But on the other hand honey production has minimal impact on the environment and its healthy. So although I don't eat it, I don't hold anything against ppl that do. |
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| I'm not vegan, I haven't developed my thoughts yet. I thought back to all the things I'd seen in my childhood, such as livestock drivers lying about not knowing how the livestock is treated upon delivery, to how I and others reacted at school seeing farm animals being mistreated. In seeing that, yet still arguing that the meat industry itself is natural, I would always argue for vegans. That's not a normal point of view to come to when we still try and avoid seeing what happens in slaughterhouses. Being desensitised at a young age to the point where you just care more about your taste is what's really happening. It's not that you find it a part of nature. I've recently just found it strange that I can feel bad when seeing these things, or upset and truly hate animal cruelty (because that's what the meat industry is) yet still feel normal eating meat. That is just the farthest thing from normal or natural I've ever experienced. On the other hand I'm not sure how I feel about smaller farms that aren't industrialised. I haven't thought about it enough yet. But I've seen about 30 mins of earthlings, I'm at the clothing chapter. Veganism seems like a complicated lifestyle to get into. |
Dick_DawkinsFeb 7, 2016 3:12 PM
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
mrhatnklogs said: Yeah that's respectable. It's an issue the whole world has and I think it's important to face it at some point. Dr_Mantis said: I'm not vegan, I haven't developed my thoughts yet. I thought back to all the things I'd seen in my childhood, such as livestock drivers lying about not knowing how the livestock is treated upon delivery, to how I and others reacted at school seeing farm animals being mistreated. In seeing that, yet still arguing that the meat industry itself is natural, I would always argue for vegans. That's not a normal point of view to come to when we still try and avoid seeing what happens in slaughterhouses. Being desensitised at a young age to the point where you just care more about your taste is what's really happening. It's not that you find it a part of nature. I've recently just found it strange that I can feel bad when seeing these things, or upset and truly hate animal cruelty (because that's what the meat industry is) yet still feel normal eating meat. That is just the farthest thing from normal or natural I've ever experienced. On the other hand I'm not sure how I feel about smaller farms that aren't industrialised. I haven't thought about it enough yet. But I've seen about 30 mins of earthlings, I'm at the clothing chapter. Veganism seems like a complicated lifestyle to get into. I've been where you are, man. I ate meat all my life. I even grew up farming animals on a small free range farm. I felt bad about the animals but never put much more thought into it. In some way or another I've lived with that hypocrisy for my whole life. No matter what anybody says about small farms or eco farms, It's bull crap. To address your concern about veganism being complicated, doing a little bit of good is better than not doing anything. It's also not uncommon to slowly get into veganism, either by starting with having more vegan meals or going vegetarian. And that makes sense. I've decided that even if I do still feel desensitised that I'll at the least make the definite decision to not support battery farming and industrial farming. But then again as you said there will still be free range farms that mistreat animals at times too. Money really shows the ugly side to businesses. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
Dr_Mantis said: I'm not vegan, I haven't developed my thoughts yet. I thought back to all the things I'd seen in my childhood, such as livestock drivers lying about not knowing how the livestock is treated upon delivery, to how I and others reacted at school seeing farm animals being mistreated. In seeing that, yet still arguing that the meat industry itself is natural, I would always argue for vegans. That's not a normal point of view to come to when we still try and avoid seeing what happens in slaughterhouses. Being desensitised at a young age to the point where you just care more about your taste is what's really happening. It's not that you find it a part of nature. I've recently just found it strange that I can feel bad when seeing these things, or upset and truly hate animal cruelty (because that's what the meat industry is) yet still feel normal eating meat. That is just the farthest thing from normal or natural I've ever experienced. On the other hand I'm not sure how I feel about smaller farms that aren't industrialised. I haven't thought about it enough yet. But I've seen about 30 mins of earthlings, I'm at the clothing chapter. Veganism seems like a complicated lifestyle to get into. It seems like you're unconvinced animals experience consciousness in a similar way to us. Otherwise you would be taking steps NOW to change, not making plans for the future. Other animals are far less intelligent than humans but they are self-aware and they are capable of feeling the full spectrum of emotion that we feel...fear, happiness, etc. Tons of studies in biology, cognitive ethology, etc prove this. You can also just look out the window and observe it for yourself. Aside from the terrible treatment these animals receive in slaughterhouses you have to realize that regardless of the conditions they are raised in, they are inevitably slaughtered, dismembered, and placed in shrink-wrap. If this doesn't strike a cord with you you're not thinking hard enough. I understand the ethics behind veganism in relation to animal well-being can be a strange concept to wrap your mind around. Like you said eating meat feels natural to you. That's because, like me, you were brought up eating animal products. We were taught to drink a glass of milk everyday. We were taught these things were natural. Of course it feels natural to you. But once you're presented with new information you're given a choice to live ethically, or not. It's that simple. If ethics are unimportant to you then you will continue to eat meat. I went full vegan overnight. It's very uncomplicated. I took about a week to adjust my eating habits during which time the hardest adjustment was having to shit 3-4 times a day. My pooping is normal now (superb rather) and it was a small price to pay for all the good its doing for the animals, the planet, and my overall health. |
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