DEBATE AT YOUR OWN PERIL DID LELOUCH DIE IN THE END?  FORUM DEBATES These are a couple of forums that provide good debatable information of the issue at hand YAHOO ANIMEOTAKU PISOGA FORUM THE ENDING |
madskizzlesSep 26, 2009 10:30 AM
| wwat do u mean alive or dead? O_O" .... ddnt he just die? |
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| Everything seems to *hint* that he is alive, perhaps just so they can make a sequel if they ever wanted to.. |
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| he is alive because at the end CC was talking to him and he was driving the wagon she was on |
| ~*LEE*IS*MY*KING*3*~ |
| Of course he's alive. he's in the bag. |
PockyLoveLove said: Of course he's alive. he's in the bag. rofl. |
 i need your love, i'm a broken rose. |
 ;) |
i need your love, i'm a broken rose. |
| Oh I've been waiting for a debate like this : 3 Anyway, let's get started then *picks out an icecream* First, shougeki said: Everything seems to *hint* that he is alive, perhaps just so they can make a sequel if they ever wanted to.. They already did a sequel : o R2 you know. So that'd make it a .. uuhm... "threequel"?: D (Or just simply a third season) Although I doubt we'll see that happen. I don't really think I've got much to say actually, so I'll just go ahead and give my opinion for now. Lelouch is alive! : D I'm saying this out of my firm belief that it was indeed him on the wagon, and it was indeed him that C.C. was talking to : ) Besides, I think having him still alive is a prefered option, since I don't think such a genius would fit being killed like that. I'd say since he was smart enough to make himself the target of the whole world's combined hatred and fear, he'd pretty damn well might as well have made it seem as if he died, while he instead just relocated himself to a safe location whereafter he now watches over the world, ready to take action again, should the need arise. |
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| He lives on as C.C. the Demon King according to the Nightmare of Nunnally manga. Anyhow, I think he's alive. I bet Lelouch is underneath the hay or he's the driver. |
| Dutch anime blogger with a love for Ikuhara's antics and proper storytelling. |
Su14 said: It would have been good if Lelouch had alive. But director waned to cut him off like this. It's called: "Director cut". But i also hope that i'm wrong and i wait for R3 through i don't think it will :) Even though the director constantly says that Lelouch is dead, I, among many others, simply dismiss it. The main reason of this is that the director actually gave his OPINION and interpretation that Lelouch should be dead (and his death is the price to pay for all his wrongdoings). The tone he used to discuss this was more that of interpretation. So even Sunrise don't really know if Lelouch should be dead or alive. However, death is a cheap price to pay. On the other hand, immortality and the pain to eternally live (and suffer) is a much greater price to pay. So the possibility of Lelouch being alive actually makes the end more meaningful. I have been told by countless people that the director said this and that, etc. Trust me, I read exactly what they said, and didn't think much of it. However, keep mind that the director may still mislead people (we're talking about Sunrise here). Lelouch may be marked "dead" simply because of lack of information.... The possibility of Lelouch showing himself in the future sequels (if any) is nearly zero. As he retreated from the world, he will not directly involve himself ever again. Now, it would be funny if they make a third season with a Lelouch look-alike, who everyone thinks is him alive but actually is a fake. Then, it would be interesting if they showed very subtle hint of the real Lelouch manipulating things to preserve the world he fought and sinned for.... There is too many proofs to show that Lelouch is alive, but not that he is dead. The Chirst symbolism, the Code, the final Nunally touch, the promise with CC, speculation on how the Code worked, etc. Indeed, he DIED, but is not dead (like how Charles died when Lelouch shot him the first time) |
wakka9caSep 26, 2009 12:38 PM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
wakka9ca said: The possibility of Lelouch showing himself in the future sequels (if any) is nearly zero. As he retreated from the world, he will not directly involve himself ever again. Now, it would be funny if they make a third season with a Lelouch look-alike, who everyone thinks is him alive but actually is a fake. Then, it would be interesting if they showed very subtle hint of the real Lelouch manipulating things to preserve the world he fought and sinned for.... You sir, should get a price or something, you're the kinda guy that makes these forums interesting : D Oh and btw, I agree with that last part you wrote : p |
| Protip: I don't really check the forums anymore, so if you want something, take it on my profile. Is it time for my long-awaited return to the forums? щ(ﾟДﾟщ) Nope™, probably not. |
PockyLoveLove said: Of course he's alive. he's in the bag. School days. *shiver* |
| He is alive I tells ya! Alive! |
 <---click ^_^ |
| He's alive he's the driver of the carriage and C.C. talks to him. :3 |
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| Alive |
     I am formerly known as "AnimePrincezz" on MAL, I change my username to "Rinjii", the Japanese name for my real name. |
wakka9ca said: Su14 said: It would have been good if Lelouch had alive. But director waned to cut him off like this. It's called: "Director cut". But i also hope that i'm wrong and i wait for R3 through i don't think it will :) Even though the director constantly says that Lelouch is dead, I, among many others, simply dismiss it. The main reason of this is that the director actually gave his OPINION and interpretation that Lelouch should be dead (and his death is the price to pay for all his wrongdoings). The tone he used to discuss this was more that of interpretation. So even Sunrise don't really know if Lelouch should be dead or alive. The director and staff have been known to lie. Take the alive and death chart they have on their site. At the time Nunnely was supposed to die, I continuously posted that she was alive. The clues where obvious that she was alive but one little thing was getting in my way. A link to the official alive or death chart showing Nunnely as dead. Then a few episodes later everyone finds out she didn't die and the chart is once again updated on their site to reflect this. So basically it's all misdirection in order to keep things surprising. With that said, there's far to many clues that indicate Lelouch still being alive. The director and staff my not have plants to make a 3rd series specifically about him this time but they left the ending open just in case they want him to make an appearance or come back. |
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| he's alive :D |
| Sasusaku OTP~ Oldrivalshipping FTW~ |
| Very nice arguments and I agree, he's alive. But in terms of what's important to the world itself, he's dead. He set all the events already, so if he were to show up alive, all his work would be for naught. And since the world denies his existence, he's dead in essence (though probably not in truth). In that way, the director is not lying. |
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| Yes I wanted to debate on this!At first I thought he was dead but then realized he was alive!DAMN him making me cry and all! ad here's the link to the proof ;3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUhNAQokc-c&feature=channel_page See, No one with Geass on both eyes can die and first you need to die and then you revive with the geass,lulush's dad was shot died and came back with both geass in his eyes, Lulush was killed and then he revived and much more proff on the video I didn't make it but whoever did made me notice the small details that he did =3 |
HazukiSama said: Yes I wanted to debate on this!At first I thought he was dead but then realized he was alive!DAMN him making me cry and all! ad here's the link to the proof ;3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUhNAQokc-c&feature=channel_page See, No one with Geass on both eyes can die and first you need to die and then you revive with the geass,lulush's dad was shot died and came back with both geass in his eyes, Lulush was killed and then he revived and much more proff on the video I didn't make it but whoever did made me notice the small details that he did =3 he's not mostly sane, he's very sane at that moment. i keep thinking his father gave him the code(as a curse and a blessing) |
| i find that if he was alive, everything he just did was pointless. or something of that matter. |
 banana |
| He is alive! Lelouch is a Highlander! :P |
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| Not even the word of god can convince the fans that he is dead. Instead of dwelling on this, lets just have a look at the recently completed Nightmare of Nunally manga. I am surprised this topic didn't turn into another flame war again (survived 4 wars and counting) |
| It was a fantastic ending, something to the extent of a cliffhanger per say, but there are many hints that lead us to believe Lelouch is indeed still alive, but I rather not go into detail. All I will say is that I'm very happy and content in the way the series was ended. |
| Alive |
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| Sorry to break this to u people, but Lelouch is stone dead!! Please read fully: The director himself confirmed it in a magazine to stop rumours that he's alive... All the videos r fan made so don't believe in them... Such a long death scene could'nt possibly be fake.... Also so many people had died because of him,so its impossible for him to make a clean slate,without some punishment. As for him stealing the Emperor's code,the code must be given willingly and cannot be stolen. Also, other immortals(VV & the nun who gave CC the geass)died after the code was taken from them.But the Emperor's body disintegrated,which means the code went with him. And as for Lord Jermiah smiling in the end,Jermiah agreed to serve Lelouch because he was Marianne's son & he declared that Empress Marianne was his master. So if Lelouch had just told him that he was the one who killed Marianne,then Jermiah would hav willingly supported zero requiem. And Nnnally seeing his memories,it was probably a way to show she ralized.Because if she was actually seeing his memories,she would be more confused than sad. Besides the one biggest point which proves his death was CC's tears.She definately would'nt hav cried if he was gonna live. Also there was a simillarity in Lelouch's death & Euphimia's death.Both died being hated & and with everyone screaming Zero's name aft they died.Which implies that this is also Lelouch's punishment for killing Euphy . The beauty of the ending is in Lelouch's death.It would make so much sense if Nunnaly was crying while everyone celebrated his death,only if he was really dead. And the fact that we still don't hav season 3 proves it!! Most peopke say he's alive because wat happened to him was so unfair and they want to convience themselves that the ending is a more happy one. But they just need to understand Lelouch is doing this as a redemption for his past sins. For all the people he has killed or caused to die, for the people he has manipulated, and as compensation for using Geass on people. If we believe (as I do) that Lelouch is atoning for himself, then he’s committed himself to death — it just wouldn’t make any sense if he was still alive. But accepting he's dead,would make his sacrifice great & his charecter itself more admirable,rather that beliving he's alive,which would only make him a trickster. |
sadhanaOct 21, 2009 2:42 AM
Winners and Victims stand alone!! |
| >.> sadhana said: But accepting he's dead,would make his sacrifice great & his charecter itself more admirable,rather that beliving he's alive,which would only make him a trickster. If it had been me, I certainly wouldn't mind being a trickster, since I'd be alive, even if I wouldn't be able to show my face in public : 3 And as I saw someone write on the previous page, it'd be a far greater punishment for him to live with everything that he's done instead of dying, and being released from everything. |
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Oosran said: It'd be a far greater punishment for him to live with everything that he's done instead of dying, and being released from everything. Thats exactly the point.Lelouch is way too intelligent to accept the eternal hell of immortality.So he would have never taken the Emperor's code. Instead dying is a much better way to atone for his sins & be released from suffering. Besides he had lost too many people he loved,so he would never choose immortality and living with the knowledge of everyone hating him to death & being free from it all. |
Winners and Victims stand alone!! |
sadhana said: Oosran said: It'd be a far greater punishment for him to live with everything that he's done instead of dying, and being released from everything. Thats exactly the point.Lelouch is way too intelligent to accept the eternal hell of immortality.So he would have never taken the Emperor's code. Instead dying is a much better way to atone for his sins & be released from suffering. Still, atonement and being released from everything don't really mix you know O.o If he's going to atone, then the choice would be immortality until he'd have atoned for everything. While dying would mean he doesn't have to live and atone for what he'd done. So.. I don't really see how atonement and dying could be the same. |
| Protip: I don't really check the forums anymore, so if you want something, take it on my profile. Is it time for my long-awaited return to the forums? щ(ﾟДﾟщ) Nope™, probably not. |
| Lelouch's mistakes were not so severe that he'd hav to suffer eternally and he knows that. Hence he choose death as a punishment for all those lives lost because of him and being hated by everyone as a punishment for all those people he manipulated. In the process he would also be able to atone for the war started because of him as his death would end it. From the very begining most of Lelouch's mistakes were accidental & his motives were mostly innocent.Yet its impossible for him to make a clean slate,bcoz many died. So death is his just punishment,but eternal suffering is way too much. But if you can come up with a counter for every single point I mentioned in my first post,I'll accept he's alive. |
Winners and Victims stand alone!! |
sadhana said: But if you can come up with a counter for every single point I mentioned in my first post,I'll accept he's alive. Give me a day, and I'll have it done. (Not today though, got a test tomorrow, gotta study for it >.>) |
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Oosran said: sadhana said: But if you can come up with a counter for every single point I mentioned in my first post,I'll accept he's alive. Give me a day, and I'll have it done. (Not today though, got a test tomorrow, gotta study for it >.>) OK I"ll wait!! |
Winners and Victims stand alone!! |
| Despite the fact that I have to work on my resume/CV, I will try to answer this... <_< The following are my perspective. I'm not saying Lelouch is 100% alive. I'm listing the reasons why I believe he is alive. There are equally reasons to believe he's dead, but I'm giving my own perspective. sadhana said: The director himself confirmed it in a magazine to stop rumours that he's alive... All the videos r fan made so don't believe in them... I'm not referring to the videos, they are fan-based parodies. And just like someone mentioned previously, the producers are known to misguide the audience. Lelouch is marked as "Dead" as long as everyone thinks he is. So, it's misinformation based on lack of information. If you are watching Umineko no Naku koro ni you know what I mean. So the director's word doesn't prove anything. Examples of lies from official Sunrise materials: Nunally's death and Marianne's supposed mother figure (which turned out to be bogus) sadhana said: Such a long death scene could'nt possibly be fake.... Also so many people had died because of him,so its impossible for him to make a clean slate,without some punishment. Again, death in general does NOT solve anything. However, his apparent death was necessary for world peace. He also knew that world peace is not eternal, and must have some kind of fail safe mechanism to prevent another war in the future. Thus, he became immortal in order to preserve the peace (and possibly come back and involve himself more directly with the world when everyone of this era died and no longer knows him) sadhana said: As for him stealing the Emperor's code,the code must be given willingly and cannot be stolen. Also, other immortals(VV & the nun who gave CC the geass)died after the code was taken from them.But the Emperor's body disintegrated,which means the code went with him. Charles did give Lelouch his immortality willingly for him to suffer eternally. That's why he reached his hand to Lelouch and Lelouch didn't tell Suzaku to stop him. He disintegrated because the collective mind of humanity wiped him out of existence. The other former code-users was simply killed, of course they didn't disintegrate. sadhana said: And as for Lord Jermiah smiling in the end,Jermiah agreed to serve Lelouch because he was Marianne's son & he declared that Empress Marianne was his master. So if Lelouch had just told him that he was the one who killed Marianne,then Jermiah would hav willingly supported zero requiem. Well, I think he smiled for a better world that Lelouch created. And it doesn't really matter whether he knows Lelouch is dead or alive. Lelouch removed himself from the world anyway. sadhana said: And Nnnally seeing his memories,it was probably a way to show she ralized.Because if she was actually seeing his memories,she would be more confused than sad. That was a typical Code-user effect Nunally had. Either Nunally has the code (unlikely) or Lelouch has it. Some people says that Nunally has special mind powers, but I don't think that that power can coincidentally be identical to code-user effect. sadhana said: Besides the one biggest point which proves his death was CC's tears.She definately would'nt hav cried if he was gonna live. Lelouch did sacrifice everything as if he died. Since he can no longer involve himself in the world and everyone (including his relatives and friends) thinks he's dead. He will really suffer from his immortality status. C.C. would also have tears for being moved by Lelouch's keeping promise with her. sadhana said: Also there was a simillarity in Lelouch's death & Euphimia's death.Both died being hated & and with everyone screaming Zero's name aft they died.Which implies that this is also Lelouch's punishment for killing Euphy . Again, just like my speculation and interpretation, this can be interpreted otherwise. The death of Lelouch is a way to atone for Euphemia's death. However, Lelouch revived after his death as a code-user and Euphemia didn't. sadhana said: The beauty of the ending is in Lelouch's death.It would make so much sense if Nunnaly was crying while everyone celebrated his death,only if he was really dead. He really died. And everyone knew he died. He just happened to be reborn as a code-user without anyone but a few knowing it. And the few who knows will not say anything because his death is necessary. The Christ died. Christians mourned for him... But keep in mind that he ressurected and went back to Heaven few days after. And keep in mind that Lelouch, like the Christ, beared all the hatred and sins of humanity on him when he died, just like the Christ did. He even formed a cruxification when he slided down the vehicle (when he was stabbed) sadhana said: And the fact that we still don't hav season 3 proves it!! Well you don't need a third season for Lelouch to be alive. And even if there is a third season, Lelouch will not show himself (except subtlely) or it would have made his death meaningless. sadhana said: Most peopke say he's alive because wat happened to him was so unfair and they want to convience themselves that the ending is a more happy one. What happened to him is fair. He fought for he believed (an equal and peaceful world). However, his dreams did not come true yet. He made the decision to die as a first step. Then, he will live on as a Code Geass user to eventually achieve his dreams. Note that he has both the Code and the King-level Geass (since C.C. did not die). He has truly achieved Code Geass. Since world peace is still not 100% achieved in the end, I would be pissed if Lelouch is not alive anymore to finish up what he started. It's like he escaped his responsibilities. sadhana said: But they just need to understand Lelouch is doing this as a redemption for his past sins. For all the people he has killed or caused to die, for the people he has manipulated, and as compensation for using Geass on people. If we believe (as I do) that Lelouch is atoning for himself, then he’s committed himself to death — it just wouldn’t make any sense if he was still alive. But accepting he's dead,would make his sacrifice great & his charecter itself more admirable,rather that beliving he's alive,which would only make him a trickster. For him, the end justifies the means. If his being alive will benefit humanity, he will do so. And the point is that even if he was alive, it wouldn't change the fact that he's officially dead and no one knows it. If you are alive but no one in the world knows you are, you are as good as dead. I accept his death, but is telling people that he may actually be alive. But all this is pointless because whether he is dead or alive does NOT matter to the current era (Lelouch lives in). Both possibility gives the SAME results: 1 - he atoned for his crime 2 - world peace The fact is that he DIED. However, whether he is alive or dead affects the future of humanity in the long term (i.e. he will come back again if peace is broken) |
wakka9caSep 27, 2009 10:10 AM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Thanks wakka9ca : D Now I didn't have to take the time to do what you just did : ) Althogh if sadhana still insists that Lelouch's gonna keep being dead, I'll have to do something about it... tomorrow : 3 |
| Protip: I don't really check the forums anymore, so if you want something, take it on my profile. Is it time for my long-awaited return to the forums? щ(ﾟДﾟщ) Nope™, probably not. |
Oosran said: Thanks wakka9ca : D Now I didn't have to take the time to do what you just did : ) Althogh if sadhana still insists that Lelouch's gonna keep being dead, I'll have to do something about it... tomorrow : 3 Well, it's his right to believe he's dead. And based on what I said, his arguments are equally valid as mine and it's all speculation and interpretation. However, I replied to show that our beliefs are not because we're idiot Lelouch fans. We actually have valid, and intelligent reasons to believe so. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Both sides have valid points really. But I happen to like the "immortality is a punishment" road. BTW, I never saw anything about the killing between the Geass and Code user having to be willingly. Didn't Charles took his brother's code against his will? I recall he said Charles betrayed him right before he was killed by Zero's troops. |
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| I hope it hasn't been posted but here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUhNAQokc-c this really confirmed it for me and it makes perfect sense. |
| First of all a very good analysis by wakka9ca. But I still hav a few points to support he's dead: Firstly his reaction when the black knights betrayed him.His almost gav up fighting & accepted death.Why was that? Because he was under the impression that Nunnally had died.So he no longer had the wish to exist.The same was the case in the world of C.His still thought Nunnally was dead. So Lelouch would never hav accepted immortality when his sister was dead. Thats the reason he agreed for Zero Requiem,to atone & achieve world peace,while obtaining peace in death. But when he found his sister was alive it was already too late to change his plan.Thats why Suzaku had to bring him back on track & asked CC to protect him. It also served as his greatest punishment as he had to die when he finally found a reason to live again.But he accepted even that & it was his highest form of atonement. Also CC, as she herself had mentioned many times is a very selfish woman.So if she knew Lelouch was gonna be immortal & keep her company,she would hav been very happy.But she was praying with tears in her eyes?Why would such a selfish & detached woman do that? Its because of the unfairness of his death. And you r very correct in saying world peace is not forever. But if that was the case,then Lelouch would most probably give his code to Suzaku. Rememember he said that it was Suzaku's punishment & he has to wear a mask forever & would sacrifice his happiness eternally. This is indeed a very effective way,because the symbol of hope,zero will always exist to guide humanity & protect justice. Yes Lelouch did die like Jesus,bearing everyone's sins.But Jesus was worshipped & had many supporters during his death. Lelouch on the other had was hated by the world,except a few.So the simillarity between them may not hold. And wakka9ca said: Well, it's his right to believe he's dead. And based on what I said, his arguments are equally valid as mine and it's all speculation and interpretation. Thank you very much for that & yes I do hav the right to belive in my own view, even if no one supports me. And by the way I'm not a "he",I'm a girl. |
sadhanaSep 28, 2009 7:18 AM
Winners and Victims stand alone!! |
| Again, it's all about how Lelouch view immortality and the choice he made. Since he's gone from the world (dead or immortal) it doesn't really matter in the context anymore. The end is the same in both cases. If Suzaku had the Code suddenly, that would also fulfill Lelouch's dream as well but that possibility is too much speculation (even more crazy than the dead/alive debate on Lelouch) That will also happen to be a viable solution in the long term. Being immortal does have both advantages and disadvantages (refer to Fuyumi Ono's Twelve Kingdoms/Juuni Kokki). And Lelouch was seen as a savior by the Black Knights (underground just like the Christians) for most of the series. It was only in the end that this changed. In addition, you can't really deny the obvious Christian reference. It's really blatantly shown.... sadhana said: Thank you very much for that & yes I do hav the right to belive in my own view, even if no one supports me. And by the way I'm not a "he",I'm a girl. Sorry for that. I should from now on adopt a genuine gender neutral language and start referring to other users as simply "the user". And I will also use the singular their. You just convinced me. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| the director had said that they can take what they want from the ending he neither denies that lulu is dead or alive. one theory is that He got Charles' code. It was all planned for him to get killed for the better of the world. Lulu had teh code that is why Nunna reacted when she touched Lulu in his final scene. and like Charles he cant be killed no mores. And of course he his driving the cart who talks to a dead person by moving ones eyes like that. If he is dead C.C. would just look at the sky. |
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| Yeah it all depends on how Lelouch views immortality.....but I hav one doubt..if Nunnally just saw lelouch's memories...would'nt she know he is immortal?..Because seeing somebody's memories is unnatural...so if she saw them did'nt she wonder why she was suddenly seeing them? Then she must hav figured out he was not normal, but immortal...because she already knew abt geass and immortals.Then why was she crying? And I just thought Suzaku might be immortal,because Lelouch kept saying the words forever & eternally.And I also thought Lelouch won't giv such big responsibility to Suzaku without giving him a means to sustain it....otherwise this peace won't even last for 100 years....besides Lelouch was not needed aft his death...but Suzaku had to live on. As for the cristian reference...just think of it this way....Jesus was God & he died for all the humans & was resurrected and honored by cristians...but Lelouch a man, took everyone's hatred & was hated for it...so if Lelouch really did die...it would make him even greater than Jesus...it is also an example of how a man can surpass even God with his sacrifice...may be the producers wanted to convey that...their hero's greater than God. wakka9ca said: Sorry for that. I should from now on adopt a genuine gender neutral language and start referring to other users as simply "the user". And I will also use the singular their. You just convinced me. Ha ha...maybe you should just check people's profiles before refering to them..coz simply saying "the user" kinda sounds werid..he he.. |
sadhanaSep 29, 2009 7:58 AM
Winners and Victims stand alone!! |
sadhana said: Yeah it all depends on how Lelouch views immortality.....but I hav one doubt..if Nunnally just saw lelouch's memories...would'nt she know he is immortal?..Because seeing somebody's memories is unnatural...so if she saw them did'nt she wonder why she was suddenly seeing them? Then she must hav figured out he was not normal, but immortal...because she already knew abt geass and immortals.Then why was she crying? I could be interpreted as the following: Again, even if Lelouch is alive, he can no longer communicate or have any relations with Nunally. He really decided to remove himself completely from the world. In that sense, he's really dead. So even if Nunally knew he was immortal, she still cried, because she will never see her brother ever again. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Well even if there won't be any chance to be with him, its not like she can't see him ever again.She could go meet him secretly without anyone knowing,atleast once, maybe many years after that incident. But if she was crying with that much emotion,it could only mean one thing,he was gone for real~dead. C'mon the evidence is so much...just accept it people. I wonder how "The Lelouch is alive" theory even started... Because the anime did'nt explicitly show us that. They did'nt even give us any concrete hints,only vague ones which may not even be hints. And they did'nt make a 3rd season to substantiate he's alive.I'm sure they really showed his death.Only because of all the fans r they switching statements. The anime did hav many flaws,but the ending was epic~philosophically. I just wonder why people can't accept it. |
Winners and Victims stand alone!! |
sadhana said: Well even if there won't be any chance to be with him, its not like she can't see him ever again.She could go meet him secretly without anyone knowing,atleast once, maybe many years after that incident. Again, that defeats the purpose of his death....Like in Buddhism, as one one way of seeking illumination, monks cut ties with their families, etc. Lelouch effectively cut ties with all his friends and families by making that decision. And Nunally could be crying because he made a villain of himself to save the world, a great sacrifice. sadhana said: The anime did hav many flaws,but the ending was epic~philosophically. I just wonder why people can't accept it. Again, I find it more philosophical if he died, but is resurrected as a Code Geass user that will silently watch over the world. You have to understand that death is not a valid way to atone for one's crime. Death can be used as a deterrent just like Lelouch used his. The prospect of him being immortal is far more beneficial to his dreams than the prospect of him being dead. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Lelouch did not cut ties with everyone like a monk. If your theories were true he was with CC in the end. Having another immortal accompany you,is by no means a sacrifice. Immortality is only a punishment,if u r alone.That was also the reason CC wanted to die. But this way he's not alone & if he was the cart driver like you guys state,he was indeed living a peacefull life with CC & possibly Jermiah & Anya in a farm,while giving all the burdens & a mask to Suzaku. How is that fair?And how does it count as atonement? Lelouch is not that kind of a person.He's more of the type who would bear all the pain himself. The philosophy I understood was: ~Lelouch gave up everything he had ~ his life,his pride,his name & even his mask as a punishment for all that he gained using the geass. ~This might indeed be acceptable,because the bargain was _ the life of one man for the happiness of the whole world.Which is of course a fair bargain. ~On Lelouch's part, as a reward for such a sacrifice, he was released from his agony & did not hav to see everyone cursing him forever. ~Suzaku's punishment was of course, to carry out Lelouch's command for living on & defend justice. ~Also CC did not get her contract fullfilled,which again serves as her punishment for giving the Geass & destroying the lives of many (like Mao). Yes maybe death is not the ultimate punishment, but Lelouch got more than death, he had to live through the agony of making those he loved hate him,which is more that enough to atone for his sins. wakka9ca said: [ The prospect of him being immortal is far more beneficial to his dreams than the prospect of him being dead. Yes,but thats why he died.He sacrificed his dreams for the sake of everyones dreams. |
sadhanaOct 1, 2009 9:36 AM
Winners and Victims stand alone!! |
| lol, this should be called the Endless Debate. No, being alone is not really the main reason of suffering. Immortals suffer for many other reasons that are not understandable by normal people. The dulling of emotions, senses, boredom, etc are some other factors. And remaining dead is to end all suffering. Based on the popular "suffer to atone" theory, death is not really a big deal. I believe Lelouch died NOT because of atonement, but because it will bring world PEACE. How can death be atonement? You die, you don't feel anything anymore (we're supposing the classical concept of afterlife is nonexistent, but you'll join the human collective consciousness that defeated Charles). On the contrary, the ones still alive will suffer. So by dying, Lelouch already sacrificed his friends and relatives emotion for the greater good of the world. That's not atonement. To him, world peace is more important. However, he chose to reveal to Nunally some hint that he may be alive to ease her pain. Nevertheless, she cried after realizing how much Lelouch sacrificed. Again, you said before than Lelouch was too smart so he will choose to escape eternal suffering. However, you also said he will never choose to live a peaceful in order to atone. You can see that as the other way around as well: Lelouch will atone by choosing eternal suffering instead. He is too smart to choose to die and not be able to act on the world again. Instead he chose to die in this era and maybe come back later in troubled times to preserve the world (once Suzaku dies of age or when the world forgot about the pains of war and repeats the same mistakes over again) This discussion is turning similar to a Battler vs. Beatrice style discussion from Umiineko no Naku Koro ni (you'll understand once you've watched more episodes). To me, whether Lelouch is dead or alive is not making his death less meaningless. It produces the same end result in short term. Once again, I emphasize that it will have DIFFERENT long term percussion. I have the impression the producers originally wanted him to live but changed ideas, making this ending very ambiguous. As a trivia, recall the series is called Code Geass, suggesting someone achieve both status (presumably Lelouch) and the second season called R2, which can mean RR/R.R. which are codenames used by Code users/immortals. In Japanese, Lelouch's name is pronunced RuRushuu..... Again, your arguments make sense as well. But there are logic in mine too.... |
wakka9caOct 3, 2009 8:05 PM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Well yes world peace was indeed his first priority. But he could hav achieved it by ruling wisely as a just Emperor. Remmember when he became Emperor People were ready to accept him & everyone was saying he was ~The Emperor of Justice & all. So after eliminating the truly evil Charles he could hav become a really good ruler. So why this complex plan of Zero Requiem ?If its not to atone for his sins.... Lelouch did play by the rules of "suffer to atone" theory. He did not get a quick death. He suffered the agony of making people who trusted him, hate him. Crushing the hopes they had on him.That was probably his worst suffering. So I would see his death as an end to his punishment. Also if he dies he would'nt hav to live in the guilty of making Suzaku bear the mask, while he was still alive. Suzaku's burden would be inevitable as Lelouch would no longer be alive to share it. So what happened to Suzaku won't be unfair. Thats why having satisfied himself that he was punished enough, he can deny eternal suffering without feeling guilty. But I doubt he had Charles's code. Because according to Charles, immortality was not suffering.Because he took the code from VV & such a cruel man won't take the code to suffer, even though its needed for his plan. So he would never giv the code to Lelouch who spoiled his plan. And if Lelouch did hav charles's code,which I doubt, it'll probably be wise to give it to Suzaku, as I can say from his last words & his command for Suzaku to live on. Because if Suzaku was mortal, imagine the time when Suzaku has to die, the live "on geass" would never let him die peacefully. Since Lelouch was respnsible for it, its best Lelouch giv his code to Suzaku, it will also fullfill both short term & long term goals & make zero an ultimate defender of justice. As for Lelouch showing his memories to Nunnaly, immortals hav no control over what memories others see when they touch them. So Lelouch would'nt take such a risk, because if Nunnaly gets to see any of his sad memories in that situation, it may affect her forever. Also CC's tears...don't tell me she was crying because she was moved by his promise to her ....bcoz she's a very detached & unemotional woman who only used Lelouch....she was crying because she was witnessing something she never had in her eternal existance....the death of a man who had sacrificed everything to atone for using the demonic power she gave him....thats why she said : "As the price of casting the geass on people,Lelouch you..." Besides, Suzaku killing Lelouch, is so poetic. It would be totally ruined if Lelouch were alive. |
sadhanaOct 4, 2009 4:39 AM
Winners and Victims stand alone!! |
| Again, good points. But.... sadhana said: Well yes world peace was indeed his first priority. But he could hav achieved it by ruling wisely as a just Emperor. Remmember when he became Emperor People were ready to accept him & everyone was saying he was ~The Emperor of Justice & all. So after eliminating the truly evil Charles he could hav become a really good ruler. So why this complex plan of Zero Requiem ?If its not to atone for his sins.... He became Emperor after betraying nearly everyone. The means he used to achieve the throne is too bloody for him the world to accept him, even before purposely abusing his power. Even if he tried to be good and peaceful, people will not trust him. Therefore, he HAD to leave his throne to someone else (i.e. Nunally and Zero) that the population will accept. sadhana said: Lelouch did play by the rules of "suffer to atone" theory. He did not get a quick death. He suffered the agony of making people who trusted him, hate him. Crushing the hopes they had on him.That was probably his worst suffering. So I would see his death as an end to his punishment. Also if he dies he would'nt hav to live in the guilty of making Suzaku bear the mask, while he was still alive. Suzaku's burden would be inevitable as Lelouch would no longer be alive to share it. So what happened to Suzaku won't be unfair. Still, same thing could be said about him being alive. To quote myself: "To me, whether Lelouch is dead or alive is not making his death less meaningless. It produces the same end result in short term." He atoned for his crimes when he died. Whether he is alive or not after no longer matters. sadhana said: But I doubt he had Charles's code. Because according to Charles, immortality was not suffering.Because he took the code from VV & such a cruel man won't take the code to suffer, even though its needed for his plan. So he would never giv the code to Lelouch who spoiled his plan. If you watch carefully, you see that Charles wanted to screw the world to become the Human Collective Consciousness thing. In other words, he wanted to recreate the world such that TIME NO LONGER EXISTS!! The present, the past and the future is all combined. Therefore, his immortality will not bother him anymore in the new world he will have created. sadhana said: And if Lelouch did hav charles's code,which I doubt, it'll probably be wise to give it to Suzaku, as I can say from his last words & his command for Suzaku to live on. Feasible theory. We can envision this possibility. However, one should always trust oneself, not entirely relying on someone else. And this is a matter of the peace of the future of humanity. I doubt Lelouch will leave the task to Suzaku alone. sadhana said: Because if Suzaku was mortal, imagine the time when Suzaku has to die, the live "on geass" would never let him die peacefully. Since Lelouch was respnsible for it, its best Lelouch giv his code to Suzaku, it will also fullfill both short term & long term goals & make zero an ultimate defender of justice. Nevertheless, unless he becomes immortal (which is possible), he will eventually die, peaceful or not. Unless Suzaku forms an organization (like Celestial Being or the Foundation) to continue Lelouch's creed, Lelouch's vision of world peace is but temporary. sadhana said: As for Lelouch showing his memories to Nunnaly, immortals hav no control over what memories others see when they touch them. So Lelouch would'nt take such a risk, because if Nunnaly gets to see any of his sad memories in that situation, it may affect her forever. Again, both you and I are speculating. So we can't tell what really happened.... sadhana said: Also CC's tears...don't tell me she was crying because she was moved by his promise to her ....bcoz she's a very detached & unemotional woman who only used Lelouch....she was crying because she was witnessing something she never had in her eternal existance....the death of a man who had sacrificed everything to atone for using the demonic power she gave him....thats why she said : "As the price of casting the geass on people,Lelouch you..." Immortality was, since the beginning of the series, seen by the Code users as a punishment. Solitude was not the reason because immortals could have lived together. They didn't because of the reasons I mentioned previously. And : As the price of casting the geass on people,Lelouch you... -lost the trust of all your friends, allies and foes (whether he's immortal or not doesn't change that) -sacrificed your life (he can no longer live in this world and time) -bore all the pain on yourself (he kept the misunderstanding and hate on himself) So too much speculation again. Not enough information (both for your and my arguments) sadhana said: Besides, Suzaku killing Lelouch, is so poetic. It would be totally ruined if Lelouch were alive. Susaku killed Lelouch. I'm not denying that. The reborn Lelouch is no longer Lelouch, but RR. To the entire world, Lelouch is dead. Since the whole series was talking about persona, this makes a huge difference. Again, good arguments, we should combine our arguments in a book. |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
| Well yeah,the means he used to become Emperor was indeed bloody. But so was the means he used as Zero to gain acceptance, including the massacre of SAZ. But with his great oratory & manipulative skills he managed to become the people's hero. So if he had really wanted he could hav used the same means, to make people accept him as Emperor. Because the moment he came to throne, even the Black Knights said that the Emperor of Brittania was doing good things. He could hav used them against Schinizal if he had wanted. But I suppose that does not matter in this context anymore. And regarding immortals, there is something no one's noticed. All the immortals whose code was transfered, like VV, The nun etc. transfered it to someone bound to them in a geass contract. The code was transfered after the person bound to them had their geass evolve to the second stage. So I guess we can conclude that, the code cannot be transfered to just about anybody, but only to someone who had a geass relation with them. If not, the whole point of immortals giving geass to people would be pointless, if the code can be transfered that easily. Why else would CC give Lelouch the geass, and wait so long, if the code can simply be transfered to anyone? So its impossible that, Charles could transfer his code to Lelouch who was not bound to him in any contract & had no geass relation with him. And since Charles himself did not grant geass to anyone, it can be assumed that the code indeed went with him. And as for the book, you know it really would'nt be a waste even if we do write one. Because all new viewers r looking for arguments on both sides & we really did do a thorough analysis. |
sadhanaOct 6, 2009 9:17 AM
Winners and Victims stand alone!! |
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