Seinen or Josei

@rti9 It seems credible that over the years manga demographics turned less representative of the target audience gender ratio, but instead turned more representative of their set of tropes, so they didn't really become "blurrier" but they essentially turned into fairly distinct quasi-genres, which doesn't make them any less useful however, quite the opposite actually, lots of people use them to find works that suit their preferences, that's why they shouldn't mix up.

@Zarutaku

I disagree, you mean to say "tropes" like fanservice/action should be just in shounen/seinen and romance should be just in shoujo/josei "so they don't really become blurrier". Romance isn't just a genre found in shoujo/josei, it's found in shounen/seinen as well. The same goes for the action genre, it isn't just a genre found in shounen/seinen, it's found in shoujo/josei as well. I made a mal stack where I listed "Action Shoujo/Josei Manga": https://myanimelist.net/stacks/42135

@-Hotaru_ No, that's not what I mean to say, but since you mentioned fanservice and romance: the demographics depict them in a usually distinctive manner, such as using specific tropes.

@Zarutaku

You mean fanservice for 'the male gaze" and the "female gaze". Even though there are shounen/seinen anime that have a female MC and have a female gaze and shoujo/josei manga that have a male MC and have a male gaze.

@-Hotaru_ Yes, that too, but exceptions exist of course, they shouldn't become the norm though, to keep the demographic system sufficiently reliable.

@Kira_Illusionist

There are shoujo/josei manga with a male protag that have a harem: Igano Kabamaru and Makai Senki Disgaea could be that. I think you underestimate how many shoujo and josei manga that have a male MC are out there. I listed those in my mal stacks:

Shoujo manga with a Male Protagonist:
https://myanimelist.net/stacks/41090

Josei manga with a Male Protagonist:
https://myanimelist.net/stacks/42856

@Zarutaku

I disagree, you mean to say "tropes" like fanservice/action should be just in shounen/seinen and romance should be just in shoujo/josei "so they don't really become blurrier". Romance isn't just a genre found in shoujo/josei, it's found in shounen/seinen as well. The same goes for the action genre, it isn't just a genre found in shounen/seinen, it's found in shoujo/josei as well. I made a mal stack where I listed "Action Shoujo/Josei Manga": https://myanimelist.net/stacks/42135

@-Hotaru_ I think you are misunderstanding tropes with genres... Action, Romance, Echi are genres, not tropes... Tropes are for example Male MC (MMC) tripping and falling onto Female MC boobs, MMC finding himself in situations where he sees FMC panties... These tropes are practically non existent in Shoujo/Josei, instead we have shirt less MMC, Kabedon etc... Kabedon is practically non existent Shounen/Seinen... Fanservice exists in both shoujo and shonen but their forms take entirely different shape... I cannot recall single panel from a Shoujo/Josei manga where a MMC having a lucky panty shot of FMC

That's why tropes for Shonen/Seinen are entirely different to Shoujo/Josei

@Kira_Illusionist

I understand the difference between tropes and genres. I wasn't too concerned with tropes, more with genres. A shoujo that felt more pervy, more similar to shounen male gaze tropes was Otokonoko ni Toriko. Anyway, you seem to be a lot into the "lucky panty shot of FMC" and other pervy tropes, good for you but I prefer to have a serious discussion about genres and demographics than about pervy tropes and fetishes.

My point is there is no distinction in genres among demographics... Not even in settings like highschool, isekai, stuck in visual novel games are unique to either demographics... The only real difference is the tropes... I mentioned Panty shots as an example as it distinguishes the demographics pretty easily... "No panty shots in the female demographic" is a very reliable predictor... I have also mentioned shirtless dudes and Kabedon which are shoujo tropes



There is no male gaze in this manga... I have seen panels of guys hair, guy's hair in ears, guy's chest with an open button shirt, guy's adam's apple etc... Those are female gaze panels... I didn't find any male gaze panels in this short 5 chapter manga... Maybe you felt there is male gaze because FMC was beautiful, but that's where the similarity with shonen ends...

As a publisher, you are not actually selling the story but selling the CHARACTERS to your demographic... If the audience are hooked on the characters thats when you sell the figurines, body pillows, other merchandise... That's when the real profits pour in

That's why in adult magazines we will have characters that go to work, are married, are divorced, have a child etc... You also see the world being a bit more cruel to the characters and characters seem to suffer from their actions more
Where as in young boys and girl magazines, we usually have characters that are in highschool age, have more hope in life, more naive, suffer consequences to lesser extent etc...

So, what do you think is the difference in selling male and female characters to men and selling male and female characters to women??? How would you make them appealing to the respective demographic??? When you do that, what differences in the characters will you observe??

How is this a Harem? The only love interest among the main and supporting cast for Kabamaru is Mai Ookumo... While Mai Ookumo is pursued by Kabamaru, Shuu Meijima and Derek... It also has the shoujo trope of the Male lead falling in love instantly with the female lead while female lead only has disgust towards him... This is a pure Shoujo



This is based on a game... I'm not sure who are love interests in this... While the first manga is published in shojo magazine, it's sequels are published in Seinen and Shonen magazines... Its novel series is published by Enterbrain a male demographic publisher... So this feels like a technicality rather than evidence of Harem stories in Shoujo/Josei magazines since the sequels and novels migrated to male demographic publishers... In fact it would further prove my point that females are close minded when reading Shoujo/Josei and the story had to move to male demographic publishers to make more money

See, having a Male MC does not define whether it is Shoujo or Shounen, but the tropes define it... The most popular Shoujo/Josei trope in the 21st century is Male MC falling in love with Female MC and going through trials and tribulations to win her heart while Female MC only has absolute disdain and disgust for him (atleast in the beginning)... Even this series has this trope, hence the question of Seinen or Josei is raised

I do have an open mind to accept that Shoujo/Josei has harem stories in them, but I have been searching for them for years and could not find them... So I would definitely check some Harem recommendations from you if you can find them from Shoujo/Josei publishers... I would prefer if its from 21st century atleast...

By Harem I mean the Male MC will have atleast 3 female characters that are in love with him and all 3 female characters are part of main cast

I guess it's a chicken and egg problem right... I would argue males don't read shoujo/josei BECAUSE the stories are completely boxed in... Shoujo/Josei manga editors are afraid to have Shounen/Seinen values (tropes) because it would turn off their main audience (females)... While Shounen/Seinen magazines think that their main audience (males) are open minded enough to still buy even if the stories had Shoujo/Josei tropes... That is why there are several reverse harem mangas are published as shounen Ex: Romantic Killer, Toilet bound Honako kun, Aoharu x kikanjuu etc... There are no harem mangas in Shoujo/Josei magazines

@Kira_Illusionist

Another one I should have mentioned is D.N.Angel, has a male MC and also has supernatural action and has the male MC being liked by a pair of twins, not quite harem but close enough. It's published in a shoujo magazine but it's very shounen-coded so there you have it.

Can you elaborate on 'very shounen-coded'? What story elements are present for it to be shounen-coded? A male MC and supernatural action means it is a shounen??