One Piece Chapter 864 Discussion

ambrose7 said:
@MoonStar9
Fair enough points. But i disagree with the first one. Think about it from Big Mom's perspective. Vinsmokes are assassins. How can she trust them? and why bother helping them out when she can simply eliminate them and seize their tech for herself? She doesn't need scientists but an army that is willing to do anything for her.

Of course at the same time she trusted Capone which is just stupid. But we don't know what made her do that. Maybe he earned her trust slowly over the timeskip.

MoonStar9 said:


Big Mom has Caesar Clown, the man who was working for Joker and Kaidou, as well as Capone, the man who is known for killing the Head of prestigious families and gangs for the lols, both working for her. Capone is even married into her family and is appointed a high ranking seat within her Crew. Trust is the last thing she should be concerned about. Hell, the Vinsmokes are more trustworthy than Caesar and Capone as they have something she can offer them that they can't get anywhere else. She is of use to them being alive. Her not trusting them doesn't make sense to be honest.

ambrose7 said:

However unlike Capone and Caesar, Vinsmokes actually command an army. Capone has but one crew. As long as the Vinsmokes are alive, the clones would be under their command. Sure technically it would be Big Mom in power, but they could turn at any moment. Not trusting the Vinsmokes and taking control of the army for herself makes more sense to me.

MoonStar9 said:


And please don't remind me of the sentient Merry-Go. Everyone talks about how they cried for a ship, while I couldn't believe the dumbness I was watching. That in fact may just be the dumbest thing in One Piece to date.

Isterio said:


Sorry, but I have to call that shit out. I was a teenager when this was written, hell I could have been 7 and I would have called it out as the bullshit it was. The sentient ship was such retarded apologetic bullcrap

It was basicly Oda telling the audience. DERRP, you see guys I cannot kill a SH crewmember so i gave the ship a soul and than it dies because friendship or something...

I´m gonna say it now. Woever cried for the ship or even till this day thinks the moment wasn´t retarded is a mentally disabled baby. I understand that Anime in a sense is escapism and suspension of disbelief is judged by the individual but even Fairy Tail doesn´t have anything this dumb in it and the Teletubbies or My little Pony are more fitting shows for that person to watch.

And I´ve heard the bullshit excuse of "but the music makes it sad" , or I am sad for the characters I like.

Well this is the power of music!

MoonStar9 said:


I also watched it when I was a teen. It was a really dumb way to justify Usopp's obsession with the ship and to get the SHs out of a pickle. It seriously took me out of the moment, especially watching the SHs cry while the ship burnt. I remember just awkwardly staring at my laptop screen stunned by the fact they were crying over a taking ship. Was I really watching One Piece? The two biggest criticisms I've seen in this series are Pell surviving and the fact that characters rarely die, but no-one ever brings up the sentient ship. Maybe they blocked it out... Funnily, Oda never did it ever again, and I'm grateful so I can pretend it never happened.

MoonStar9 said:


Caesar's link to Kaidou, the most powerful thing ever, is far more dangerous than the Vinsmokes whose army isn't even strong enough to win them back the North Blue! And so is Capone who is literally the enemy of entire wealth. The Vinsmoke are of no threat to her whatsoever. The Germa would listen to the Vinsmokes who would listen to Big Mom. It's no different to the Fishmen who she has ties to through the Sun Pirates, or any Pirate crew allied with her technically. The Germa are bioengineered to obey the Vinsmokes so how does killing their masters grant her control of them? It makes no sense to kill them, at least not until she has genetically enhanced super soldiers of her own using their technology, full knowledge of their technological advancements, collaborative scientific projects in the works to benefit her in the future, and an heir through Sanji and Pudding to claim the Vinsmoke empire, and even then it would be daft to get rid of allied forces..

Isterio said:

I´m gonna say it now. Woever cried for the ship or even till this day thinks the moment wasn´t retarded is a mentally disabled baby. I understand that Anime in a sense is escapism and suspension of disbelief is judged by the individual but even Fairy Tail doesn´t have anything this dumb in it and the Teletubbies or My little Pony are more fitting shows for that person to watch.

SuperRed said:


The only stupid one here is being you pal, first of all, it fits in just fine thematically with a fantastic (2nd definition of) story like One Piece that is inspired by pirate lore. It was also implied in the story Oda had the concept in mind since Skypeia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kobold#Water_spirits

People can feel emotions from whatever the reason they felt impacted them and you have no business calling people "mentally disabled" because you personally didn't like it.

You are far more toxic than any so called "One Piece-tard" the way you constantly delude yourself into thinking that only OP has overzealous defenders and everyone from every other fanbase is a rational fan who can listen to criticism.

@MoonStar9 thanks for answering, I agree on some things you mentioned.

Isterio said:
@Big Mom is not Spandam! She´s supposed to be that nigh omnipotent threat with decades of experiences resting on her shoulders and yet througouht her arc she and the majority of her crew behaved, either like toddlers throwing temper tantrums or one dimensional teenage bullies whose countries infrastructure resembles more that of a school yard rather than a functioning dictatorship, or a Yakuza family like many try to point out.

ashfrliebert said:
Lol, I've seen criticisms of Klabautermann but this is rather excessively passionate.
I agree to the extent that we already knew the ship had a soul and it didn't *need* to *literally* talk. Merry talking was extremely cheesy even for One Piece standards. Just showing Klabuttermann would have been enough.

I liked the ship's funeral, though. It's just silly enough for One Piece standards. Maybe it talking was a little *too* silly. But eh, it was only once. And like most things in One Piece, it didn't come completely out of left field. The ship having a soul was built up throughout Water 7 and Enies Lobby.

Isterio said:


The first instance, where the ship´s "soul" was introduced, was when Oda used it´s deus ex machina nature, to save Chopper and Gan Fall, from drowning. This situation they were in would have meant certain death, otherwise. Literally on the introduction of the ship´s sentience, he used this new concept to get one of his characters out of danger. Then we are given a further hint towards it´s formerly only implied existance, when it repairs itself and only Ussop witnesses the event, to foreshadow the future conflict. The foreshadowing in itself was fine, the saving of Chopper on the other hand was bullshit.
The existance of the Going Merry developing a consciousness had no foreshadowing before this point in time. While it´s appereances were limited, towards whenever it was required to bail out the Strawhats. This is bad writing, regardless of medium or genre. Even as a dumb teenager I reckognized that.

[...]
The problem I have with Merry, is convenience. If you are a dedicated writer, you don´t wrap up your conflicts with, "and then his magical unicorn with wings came flying in and saved them all". This is conceptually the same scenario and people cheered for this bullshit, because it´s One Piece. The ship repairing itself was a mundane task. It didn´t have crucial plot significance and was suffient enough to work solely as proper foreshadowing for the events to come . Saving Chopper on the other hand, eliminated an otherwise unsolveable threat. This is the distinction, between just cheesy writing and a deus ex machina. None of the Strawhats, were in range to, save their teammate. Yes, techincally you could consider anyone coming out of the blue and saving the two guys from drowning a deus ex machina. Nonetheless, it´s a pre-established possibility, for a human to do it and nonsensical to introduce magical powers into your story, to enable their safety.

The cheesieness isn´t much of a problem here. I adore cheese if it´s the right kind.

Afterwards nothing happens with Merry , untill Skypea is over. I do understand, that the story was preoccupied, with other plotlines, that it needed to solve.

Even disregarding the fact that Ussop wasn´t my favorite character, the resulting conflict was nonsensical. It never made sense for him to challenge Luffy and everyone in- and outside the universe knew that. Pointing out the futility of his proposition.

Then he predictably loses, still behaves like a nagging bitch and leaves the crew in a melodramadic manner

that is shattered immediately afterwards, because all of the artifically manufactured conflict that was build up gets overshadowed by Robin´s story arc and her rescue.

All that needles circlejerk, kickstarted by the ship! Who had two appereances at this point! Of which one, was the enablement, of a character´s death copout.

Later, we are shown retroactively, how the ship was severly important, to all of them off screen and why Ussop is so attached to it, although they never showed any of that affection, before Oda said so. That´s bad writing.

Same thing here. We are retroactively told that Merry was always "suuuuper important" to the SH crew. This is the material bad comedy shows use as a frequent skit.

Merry´s story isn´t over yet and we are told through exposition what exactly the phenomenon that Ussop witnessed was, which is dumb. Because it operates on the power of friendship, or love.Pick your poison. We learn that in the world of One Piece Inanimate objects, or rather specifically only ships, magically develop souls, when they are treated well by their owners. The only other known exeption to this rul,e are swords, who achieve their souls through unspecified means, apparently. So which is it? If the rules aren´t explained, there are no rules, there is no limit to them, it´s make-believe.

sman3579 said:
I never knew the "Going Merry" funeral scene triggered some people the was it did, that's kind of hilarious to me lol.

Isterio said:


It´s not about being triggering in itself. It´s just a bad writing moment. I can´t even say that it bothered me in an anger inducing manner as a series that you usually like can be forgiven for it. Nonetheless the plotline was horrendous and it felt cringy.
What´s actively infuriating is people giving other series shit massively bitching about their flaws and praising this horseshit.

sman3579 said:

I mean I personally didn't really find anything wrong with the scene. It didn't make me cry or that particularly sad or anything, but I wouldn't say it was terrible either. I felt like it was fitting enough, they did kind of set up the whole, "ships that filled love have souls" thing, so at least they sort of mentally prepared us and gave us at least some sort of explanation to it. IDK, that's just me though.