86 Episode 9 Discussion

SoraSenpai said:
Shit man this episode had the feels all around. Lena giving Shin that last boost to wake him up and take out his brother. So good.

Glad Lena put Penrose in her place. I cant stand her. When she called Lena the Devil though I kind of loved it!

Man I hope we get a season 2. I dont know how you can wrap this up in 2 episodes I guess I could always read the LN

theGodde said:
at best this is an incremental improvement on Akito
what I prefer about Akito is the more realistic portrayal of war and persecution (thanks to code geass actually having a world that makes sense). The characters are still better in that show since they make sense within the world. They actually behave in a mature way that suits their rank, unlike the characters of 86 who are emotionally indistinguishable from regular teens.

In all, I just don't think 86 can really justify its existence when Akito already exists. Why write this when the concept has already been done before? Why didn't the author at least attempt to significantly modify the characters in some way, or at least the damn mechs? This show would have been 10x better if the mechs were better designed. The combat in this anime is so awkward simply because of the mech design.

Also you don't need to look far to realise I'm not a fan of code geass. I just genuinely do not think 86 is a good piece of media.

As for the mortars, this at the end of the day is an issue with the story. Yes you are correct. It would hamper their ability to exterminate the 86. However why are they prioritising exterminating the 86 over winning the war? Do they think that the purification of their race takes priority over their own survival. I just read up on some 86 lore and wasn't the ORIGINAL REASON that the 86 were sent to prison camps because they needed to be used to WIN THE WAR? And the fact that they were classified as war criminals was just an excuse to use them as inhuman fighting tools? The logic behind the 86 imprisonment is completely circular. The 86 are imprisoned and forced to fight in order to win the war. But their extermination takes priority over winning the war. The author put absolutely zero thought into the war side of things and it shows.

Like I said before, sometimes you just don't need to justify a flaw. Even if you like something there is nothing wrong with admitting it has its mistakes

Neion4ty7 said:


Those arent really the main theme going forward though, rather just for the setting of the 86, what it really ends up being is finding purpose and the will to live even after war has taken everything from you. With the view being more so on the squad rather than the system it was never really tackling those larger overarching themes outside of as tools for character growth.



Plenty of romance later but not in the scope of this season, which gets tied in with the theme above. Idk why you would rather watch aldnoah zero when you "need more romance" though, that was a meme in aldnoah.

kljy said:
Aldnoah Zero and romance is fated to be never together.

Neion4ty7 said:


they were never trying to win the war in a conventional fashion using penal battalions, by the time they resorted to forced conscription there was no hope of winning the war with the destruction of their regular army forces and block out of the air, it would be even more ridiculous and unrealistic if that was the reason for it(it never was). It was as explained in order to hold out as a last resort move by the republiic

I don't think you are putting enough thought into things here if you actually believe that any force that has to resort to forced conscription actually believed they could win a war against a military super empire that pumps out AI controlled drones. The republic doesn't need to waste artillery yet in order to last the last X amount of years before legion shut down at, again, least while the 86 are being thrown into the meat grinder. Using arty after the conscirption would have never done anything to speed up the victory, again if anything it would lower 86 casualties and make the process of wiping them out passively against the legion even slower.

The LN describes this in a info dumpy way but its not even hard to comprehend the whole war situation with the info the anime gives you.

TweedleDane said:
as if they already werent in danger of death ? either way for them had death as a high possibilty . if they return to republic , the bigots would without doubt trump up some kind of bullshit to take away their lives .
so if anything going into the unknown is better than than the guarenteed one . and besides fearing for their safety is one thing , but lena herself knows how capable and strong this squad is , so concern for their safety is very likely not the main reason for her running and tumbling and crying and all .

like i said , its a situation seen through out in other anime as well . overdramatizing scenes is nothing new , and i will put this one aside as one of those as well.

Leonhart93 said:


You passed by the main anime page for 86 to get here and you didn't notice another cour is already planned? 😏. It was from the very beginning, they've split it in 2 parts.

UTMAN said:
@theGodde

Because it's not that effective.
You miss several points. They were fighting against a Shephard who did not really want to kill Spearhead squadron. Shin was easily defeated, while the rest of the army was there to distract the other 4.

You miss the point that those mortars only 100-150 km range at most. Legion has a 400km range artillery. So sitting back would not mean a thing. Also Lena used all of the mortars to cover one battle. There are several battles happening at the same time, you just don't see it because we are in Spearhead's POV. And those fronts would need at least this amount of artillery. You also missing the point that the Republic wants 86-ers to die and have high casulty.

Neion4ty7 said:


is that supposed to be an insult? Ill come right back at you with your 10 for naruto and fucking bleach. Hell if its shounen 300 eps at least to get anywhere you give it a 10, typical shounensperg. Like you gave sangatsu no lion an 8 while the aformentioned shounen drivel is 10s. the only one that deserves it is hunter x hunter.

You have watched over 100 eps of fucking boruto for christ sakes. Thats all i need to know to confirm my suspicion that any subtle exposition, symbolization or characterization is completely lost to you.

Piromysl said:
Looks like I was correct with my assumptions.

There is no such thing as unconditional kindness, Lize is not a good person, she is manipulative and when push comes to shove, she'll show what she truly is.

Pranavk27 said:

How it is average? Anyways you guys need to read this article .
https://anitrendz.net/news/2021/06/03/privilege-and-discrimination-in-86-eighty-six/

Leonhart93 said:


What she "truly is"? You mean her being the type going around blackmailing people for satisfaction? No, people don't just turn into that like flipping a switch. It was just a tool fitting the situation, not her default self. She did what she had to, at the end of the day the safety of her team was far more important than upholding morals towards the unscrupulous Alba.
And she will probably use it again, because I am sure the circumstances will make it impossible for her otherwise. But do watch it closely, as I am sure she won't do it just because she can, but because there is a goal that needs accomplished.

And I am not sure what you mean by "unconditional" but Lena had solid reasons to be kind to the 86 from the very beginning. As in she knew ever since she was young that they are the exact same people as her, after she was saved by one of them and so she couldn't stomach anymore how they are treated.
But her kindness towards the 86 could be called "unconditional" if you ignore the fact that she does it because she can't stand the idea of doing nothing. In that sense you could say it's "self-satisfaction". Then again, if we are to grasp at straws like that, 100% of any human's action can be summed up to self-satisfaction. Even saints do good deeds because they can't bear the idea of doing nothing. There is no 100% spontaneous completely robotic action towards others.

Albi-kun said:
That's nothing new. One Piece for example has done racism and discrimination way better.

Leonhart93 said:


I think I know where your mind is going. I have seen someone on this very forum pointing the exact thing out for another episode, but basically there seems to be a group of anime watchers that don't view characters as "interesting" if their personality is not exaggerated in various ways, like giving big speeches about stuff like friendship or how they don't want to be oppressed or burst out in anger or joy at the very simplest stimulus. Or perhaps if they are not the extremely cold types that always pay back 120% of what the others have done to them.

Those are not the only interesting types of people. In fact those are so overdone they don't excite me anymore. Look around you, there are plenty of very interesting people that don't have immense outbursts of reaction all the time.

UTMAN said:


You mean the fishman island? Bwahahaha
Wait you are serious? Allow me to laugh even harder. :D:D:D:D:D:

Please help me my stupid cook who lost too much blood from nose bleeding!!!!!
Please help my captain who lost way too much blood against an enemy!
Issues that never ever happened in the anime's previus 700 episodes. Zoro lost way more blood against Mr1 or when he took Luffy's pain and there blood loss was no an issue ever. Like dude.

Piromysl said:


She is not willing to damage her eyesight, so she manipulated Henrietta to do so.

Albi-kun said:


Who said I was talking about the blood donation? I'm talking about the flashback and the fact that we were conditioned to believe that the fishmen were the bad gus but they were actually historically victims of discrimination.

aightbet said:


Btw you got misunderstood this bit. Lena risked her own eyesight, she is the handler and it is the handler that is connected to the 86. She merely made Anette synchronise the para-raid device to allow for handler-to-86 vision because that's what Anette specialises in. Anette was in no risk of blindness or eyesight damage.

UTMAN said:
@theGodde

You are comparing the US to San Magnolia?
The US in our time is the top millitary superpower in the whole Globe. San Magnolia is nowhere there.

San Magnolia lost so much terrority against the Legion that they don't have space for aggriculture (that's why they eat artificial food). They have very limited amount of resources. That's the second reason why the 86-ers machine is such weakly crafted.

They didn't get the Mortals in range. Those are stationary.They are just there and the Legion walked into range. The battle was in the range basically.

Well now you went on questioning the Sci-fi element about what's possible and what not. If you are like this, just watch documentary movies. Those are 100% realistic.

The 400km range artillery is a railgun with capable to fire projectiles in a 4-8000 m/s velocity. Railguns are a thing in real life. The real life counterparts are a weaker but since this is a sci-fi anime i think we can let this one go. Otherwise we could go on One Piece threads and complain that fruits don't give superpowers, since it's impossible.

The thing is the Legion doesn't want the republic dead yet. Also the Legion is fighting a 4 front war with much much much stronger countries than San Magnolia. The fact that the republic is sending their veterans to die to the Legion, also they allow the corpses to linger aound are like 100% good for the Legion. basically the republis is a free real brain estate.

Airforce is non-existent because it is highly uneffective against the Legion.
The flying butterflies that you saw fly into any airplane and basically damages their jets/turbines. Also the Legion sends these as a vanguard so using airplanes are just suicide. And since Airplanes don't really work, not many pilots are around anymore, and new people won't train as a pilot.

aightbet said:


Liking a story is of course subjective. Just like I find your rating of Naruto being a 10/10 quite funny, I still respect it if that's the type of show you enjoy.

I believe this show has explored the theme of forced conscription within a lens of a somewhat WWII type racism to be very well done and explored. The character development of Lena especially in the past 9 episodes was absolutely beautiful and breathtaking. Lena went from a character I was not too fond of in the beginning few episodes to progressively becoming my most loved character in the space of 9, wonderfully directed and presented episodes. The pacing of this story was one of my highlights of this show as well as how engaging it felt to see both alternating perspectives of the lives of Lena and the 86.

That being said, it is not my call to make you like a certain show if you do not like it. However, unlike you I do not barrage episode discussions by repeating the same rhetoric over and over in hopes to make other people not like this show. You may discuss your displeasure once, you may discuss it twice, maybe even three times. But continuously arguing with people who actually like the show or bringing this dead topic back to life over and over again is childish. Let people like what they like, you don't have to propagate your hatred to others, you only make yourself look like a troll.

Piromysl said:


Then they made a poor job conveying it, because even one of 86 was concerned about her risking her eyesight. This scene stil made her look evil.

Piromysl said:


You know what final scene confirmed?
That she was doing it all (mostly) for herself, because she really wants their company. (Don't leave me!)
She is not willing to damage her eyesight, so she manipulated Henrietta to do so.
She likes them, but not enough to do any sort of sacrifice or risk.
Just imagine what will inevitably happen, once her superiors will try to force to cut this shit with sympathising with 86 and threating her with repecautions. This is a textbook example of virtue signalling.

There is literally no such thing as "unconditional kindness".
Literally every single act of good deed or charity could be attributed to one's discomfort caused by conscience, self gratification or else, because humans are evil by nature and good behaviour and kindness must be taught by raising.
Even in case of Mother Teresa you could argue, that she did it all just to appease God and ensure her place in the Paradise.
I know it's rough and extreme, but that's how it is.
Lize is a perfect example.

Albi-kun said:


It has nothing to do with that. They're bland because they're bland, not because they're not over the top. They have no depth aside from their hardship as 86ers. We're basically meant to pity them to the point of caring for them. Yes, I feel sorry for them, but that isn't enough to make me emotionally invested in them.

theGodde said:
First of all, the entire plot spearhead has been pushing up towards the Legion. In order for the "Mortals" to be already positioned there that would mean that spearhead wasn't literally just sent on a suicide mission INTO DISPUTED LEGION TERRITORY and that was the climax of the episode. They are entering enemy territory - there is no way the artillery was already waiting in range.

theGodde said:
and now once you realise how stupid this all is you retort with the classic...

theGodde said:
Also until you mentioned it I had no idea there were other nations that still existed aside from the two we know of. Way to go world building, it's almost as bad as RWBY.

theGodde said:
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but it's okay to admit that your favourite show has flaws. Just like how I'm willing to admit that 86 has some redeeming qualities. The idea of synthetic butterflies designed to sabotage aircraft is pretty cool and a good bit of science fiction that makes sense since it doesn't use any pre-existing scientific concepts (often incorrectly) that can be proven wrong like the rest of the show.

theGodde said:
And this is the controversial bit that most of you don't agree with - 86 is poorly written....

UTMAN said:


I'm talking about it because that was a main plot regarding racism in the anime. That Fishmen and Humans can give blood each other because of racism. And the whole thing was fabricated there to serve some sort of artificially created racism there.
One Piece just touched the subject of racism but never really went deep. Not because it couldn't it's just not the media for it. It's a shounen jump series, and you can't really go deep into such controversial issues.

86 has Racism that deals with:
- Forced Conscription
- Deportation/Exile
- Human Experimentation based on Race only (like Dr. Mengele style)
- Hidement of the lesser race, like the French/German hid some jews. (Inglorius Basterds Milk Scene)
And much much much much more subtle themes of Racism under 9!!!!!!! episodes while One Piece has over 900 now. Also One Piece has the time to make long multi-episoded flashbacks, 86 can't because it has finite amount of episodes and can't really waste on meaningless flashbacks that One Piece does every arc.

Leonhart93 said:


Wow, that's an absolutely cynical point of view 😒
I know not much will come out of it by talking about stuff with the likes of you, but I will say this nonetheless. Yes, there is always a reason for our actions, that's how our human brains are wired.
Then, what is stuff like kindness and altruism? It's when one's inner desires align with the well-being of other people and by helping these people then basically help themselves.
Of course, it's very far from following your inner desires towards chaos. I am not sure how your brain perceives them in the same category 😩

Btw, I don't know what you have been watching but it was VERY clearly stated that Lena, herself, risked her own eyesight by connecting it through the para-raid. Raiden himself protested saying it would turn her blind, to which she replied that "it was only for a brief instant " and that "the blindness won't set in immediately". He saw through her eye in the same way she saw through his and in that moment he saw her reflection in the screen from the control room.
Did it need any more concrete spelling to be obvious? And no I didn't read the LN or something

theGodde said:
First of all, the entire plot spearhead has been pushing up towards the Legion. In order for the "Mortals" to be already positioned there that would mean that spearhead wasn't literally just sent on a suicide mission INTO DISPUTED LEGION TERRITORY and that was the climax of the episode. They are entering enemy territory - there is no way the artillery was already waiting in range.

and now once you realise how stupid this all is you retort with the classic "iT's nOt rEaL lIfE dOn'T uSe yOuR lOgiC" and then compare it to one piece. First of all - 86 is set in a world that uses our technology. They have cars and their architecture looks exactly like ours. They dress like us. They act like us. They shoot guns that fire shells. They use airburst rounds. They use railguns. These are real concepts that exist and the show likes to take itself seriously. It wants to be treated like a legitimate science fiction story (with emphasis on the science). And because it uses too many real world concepts without actually understanding them it falls flat on its face.
Now contrast this with one piece. One Piece is clearly not set in our world. They have magical powers and strange hybrids between steampunk and 1700s style pirate tech. It is clearly not meant to be taken scientifically. It's a fantasy shounen series. To make this comparison is like comparing Blade Runner to Lord of the Rings. One is science fiction, the other is straight up fantasy. The fact that you make this comparison shows you have no real understanding of what you're talking about and are trying desperately to defend a show that doesn't need to be defended.

Also until you mentioned it I had no idea there were other nations that still existed aside from the two we know of. Way to go world building, it's almost as bad as RWBY.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but it's okay to admit that your favourite show has flaws. Just like how I'm willing to admit that 86 has some redeeming qualities. The idea of synthetic butterflies designed to sabotage aircraft is pretty cool and a good bit of science fiction that makes sense since it doesn't use any pre-existing scientific concepts (often incorrectly) that can be proven wrong like the rest of the show.

I could continue to pick apart the show in intricate detail and get around the butterfly problem but the fact remains - why am I doing this? The only time you tend to end up nitpicking tiny details is when the story isn't interesting or immersive enough to keep you fully entertained.

And this is the controversial bit that most of you don't agree with - 86 is poorly written. Shin's brother is introduced as a kind of "big bad" but he's given 2 short flashbacks and then killed off. Spearhead are all 2nd Lieutenant and higher - which denotes that they have extensive combat experience - and yet their teamwork and cohesion is abysmal, and they still act like regular teenagers without any visible signs of maturity due to rank or combat experience. Lena some how made it to Major while being literally 16 with no combat experience (like shit man, that just defies the whole purpose of ranks in the first place) she is poorly trained and can't hold her emotions in under pressure. Like sure - the 86 have an excuse because the adults are all dead - but why is Lena a Major in Alba when they don't have a critical shortage of adults. Why is a teenager put in control of the first line of defence against the Legion?
The only character I kind of liked was Lena's friend, who has complex motivations and actually has some kind of grey morality that makes her an interesting character. Everyone else is paper thin and can be summed up in a sentence.

Albi-kun said:


The blood thing is just a way to make the Straw Hats aware of the situation, it's not the actual deep part. So a flashback that does a great job covering racism both ways is meaningless? OK dude... I don't care about the length of the story as long as it's good.

Albi-kun said:


Can you please tell me what changed about Lena so much that made you change your view of her? She's basically the same. Always trying to help, with good intentions in mind. Just because the 86 didn't acknowledge her and now they do, it doesn't mean she has changed.

What's with all the Naruto hate by the way? Everyone is mentioning Naruto to me like it's some shit show.

I've only commented twice on this show, the others are just responses to other people.

Leonhart93 said:


Did it struck you that we barely had 9 episodes of this so far and half of the time Lena was the singular focus? And some of those the focus was on died meanwhile?
Extrapolate that time a little, what if let's say a mainstream shounen had exactly 9 episodes to show depth of character for its whole main cast? Hell they barely manage to do that with hundreds of episodes.
And so I think that 86 did a splendid job at that in the 9 episodes it had. It did so mostly through actions, show not tell. And no, it's not the end of the character exposition, we will see it consciously for at least 24 episodes.

Piromysl said:
I believe I have already explained everything, so I won't repeat myself.

And it was actually conveyed quite well, that Lena literally manipulated Henrietta into risking her eyesight, which apparently wasn't even a threat, as a poster above me claims.

UTMAN said:


The flashback itself wasn't deep aswell. Also you are missing a very important part that One Piece depicts a different type of racism

One Piece has a racism where Humans >>>>>> any other race who are not Humans. It takes way more safe route.
In 86 everybody are human and there is discrimintation because of skin/hair/eyecolour so the racism happens within the race.
So no. One Piece is not depicting racism better. Heck it depicts a way different racism than 86 does.

Albi-kun said:


I read it. So? It doesn't change anything for me. Of course it's based on real life discrimination. That's nothing new. One Piece for example has done racism and discrimination way better. I also disagree with the Lena part. I think she was just misunderstood by the 86s because they judged her.

Albi-kun said:


Well, many of those characters, as you said, died, with little to no characterization. So why should I care?!

As far as the 9 episode thing goes, luckily for me I've watched other anime too this season that made me way more emotionally invested than 86 in just 9 episodes or less.

UserAnonymous117 said:
Um Naruto's powerscaling become shit later on to the point powerups come out of nowhere and stronger enemies can be defeated by basic attack and the worse, BORUTO!

Albi-kun said:


That's irrelevant. Fishmen symbolize minorities. They don't have to be human for us to get the idea.

Leonhart93 said:


I wasn't talking about the ones that died at all, we have like 7 characters that have a much larger focus and are still alive.
But anyway, I watched other anime this season and while I appreciate some specific ones a lot, none of them made me tingly every week to watch the episode like 86 did and then very disappointed when 20 minutes felt like an instant 😌. And I am mainly a character driven watcher, they matter to me a lot more that stuff like plot or world-building (although those are nice too).