| I believe not. |
TheCupSlammer said: yeah but down that line of thinking, how can knives be faulted simply because he was created by humans? Well, |
TheCupSlammer said: yeah i probably dont remember enough abt the manga to talk to this too much tbf and idk how to ise the spoiler tag, plus i havent seen the latest ep yet, sooo... but i dont think that makes his perspective invalid. obviously what he did is wrong by every standard we know and im not trying to justify his actions, but i think writing him off as insane as someone in this forum did isnt really correct either. idk maybe thats a bad take but i think the justfication of his actions is interesting and ill admit that i probably havent thought this through enough. I'm not telling Knives Perspective is invalid. It is not justifiable as the OP is pointing. |
| I didn't think he is doing the right thing, but you can't deny that his ability and this blades manipulation is cool and looks absolutely sick. |
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| Of course he did. He was born first. |
| I think it's very important to understand the difference between sentient life and non-sentient life. Imagine one day some sort of plant being came to be and obtained sentience. Do you then think it's justifiable for them to kill everything that happens to eat plants? There would be no way you could live in peace with someone who is that unreasonable, so of course you would have to fight back against them, it's literally your only way to survive. Or imagine if a sentient oxygen being came to be and they told you "How dare you breath and take advantage of my kind". It's stupid. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: MarchinBunny said: I think it's very important to understand the difference between sentient life and non-sentient life. Imagine one day some sort of plant being came to be and obtained sentience. Do you then think it's justifiable for them to kill everything that happens to eat plants? There would be no way you could live in peace with someone who is that unreasonable, so of course you would have to fight back against them, it's literally your only way to survive. Or imagine if a sentient oxygen being came to be and they told you "How dare you breath and take advantage of my kind". It's stupid. Not as stupid as this take Wow, you sure convinced me with your short inept response. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: Plants always had feelings & thoughts & were living beings from the start. We’re meant to sympathize with the Plants & agree that they’re taken advantage of. The manga ends with humans agreeing to create a dialogue with Plants & come to an understanding. You’re basically on the side of the people that are actively condemned by the story & it’s protagonists. If you think you are meant to sympathize with Knives, literally the villain in the anime, then you lost the plot of the show. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
| Reading these replies it makes me wonder do they not teach the Atlantic Slave Trade curriculum these days? |
Jackalinthebox said: No, I don't typically call characters where their actions can be sympathized with, a "villain", instead I use the word antagonist for characters like that. Villains to me are a type of antagonist that is evil or does bad things with no real sense in terms of what would be considered moral. Where as a character that is just an antagonist, while may be against the protagonist but their reasons are not evil (may even fall into a grey area) and you can sympathize with them in their pursuit and understand why they are doing what they are doing.MarchinBunny said: If you think you are meant to sympathize with Knives, literally the villain in the anime, then you lost the plot of the show. Wait. You think villains are by definition impossible to sympathize with? Are you 12? Writers have been creating sympathetic villains for thousands of years lol. And don't get me wrong, I am not saying villains can't be sympathized with at all at any point, such as maybe their past. But usually you are not meant to sympathize with them while they are going on a murder spree. You can sympathize with their past, but not their actions. And I think that distinction is very important. You are not meant to sympathize with the actions that Knives is taking because it's excessive and beyond any moral justification. If you don't understand this, then Trigun as a story, might be too complex for you. Or, you do understand, and are just trolling. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
MarchinBunny said: Villain and antagonist are synonyms, they can be used interchangeably. Jackalinthebox said: No, I don't typically call characters where their actions can be sympathized with, a "villain", instead I use the word antagonist for characters like that. Villains to me are a type of antagonist that is evil or does bad things with no real sense in terms of what would be considered moral. Where as a character that is just an antagonist, while may be against the protagonist but their reasons are not evil (may even fall into a grey area) and you can sympathize with them in their pursuit and understand why they are doing what they are doing.Wait. You think villains are by definition impossible to sympathize with? Are you 12? Writers have been creating sympathetic villains for thousands of years lol. And don't get me wrong, I am not saying villains can't be sympathized with at all at any point, such as maybe their past. But usually you are not meant to sympathize with them while they are going on a murder spree. You can sympathize with their past, but not their actions. And I think that distinction is very important. You are not meant to sympathize with the actions that Knives is taking because it's excessive and beyond any moral justification. If you don't understand this, then Trigun as a story, might be too complex for you. Or, you do understand, and are just trolling |
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| Note that in the original show, Plants were hinted as being sentient, in the very few scenes where Vash is interacting with them. I'm hoping for this retelling to go more into details with this, in fact, the opening is already suggesting things in how humanoid they made them look like. Basically, Knives is doing the Thanos-style logic. Logically, it is in a grey area - it does makes sense. Morally, nah. In the original show, he said that you can't save both the predator and the victim (spider-butterfly). Now, is he considering humans as the predator and the planet/Plants as the victims, or the inverse (because he stricly considers humans as inferior), I wouldn't be able to say. But I wouldn't say this is strictly "good intention" for saving his kind ; his superiority complex is way too toxic for him to be justifiable. |
SparkleDuck said: MarchinBunny said: Villain and antagonist are synonyms, they can be used interchangeably. No, I don't typically call characters where their actions can be sympathized with, a "villain", instead I use the word antagonist for characters like that. Villains to me are a type of antagonist that is evil or does bad things with no real sense in terms of what would be considered moral. Where as a character that is just an antagonist, while may be against the protagonist but their reasons are not evil (may even fall into a grey area) and you can sympathize with them in their pursuit and understand why they are doing what they are doing. And don't get me wrong, I am not saying villains can't be sympathized with at all at any point, such as maybe their past. But usually you are not meant to sympathize with them while they are going on a murder spree. You can sympathize with their past, but not their actions. And I think that distinction is very important. You are not meant to sympathize with the actions that Knives is taking because it's excessive and beyond any moral justification. If you don't understand this, then Trigun as a story, might be too complex for you. Or, you do understand, and are just trolling Well, then let's find out if that's true. Let's go on a little research journey together. First we will start with the Oxford dictionary Villain - a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot. Antagonist - a person who actively opposes or is hostile to someone or something; an adversary. Now, I am going to give a pretty clear cut example. L in Death Note is an antagonist. Yet he is on the good side, but he is against and hostile toward the protagonist. L, is clearly not a villain, right? So, with that said, do you still think they are synonyms? |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: MarchinBunny said: No, I don't typically call characters where their actions can be sympathized with, a "villain", instead I use the word antagonist for characters like that. Villains to me are a type of antagonist that is evil or does bad things with no real sense in terms of what would be considered moral. Where as a character that is just an antagonist, while may be against the protagonist but their reasons are not evil (may even fall into a grey area) and you can sympathize with them in their pursuit and understand why they are doing what they are doing. And don't get me wrong, I am not saying villains can't be sympathized with at all at any point, such as maybe their past. But usually you are not meant to sympathize with them while they are going on a murder spree. You can sympathize with their past, but not their actions. And I think that distinction is very important. You are not meant to sympathize with the actions that Knives is taking because it's excessive and beyond any moral justification. If you don't understand this, then Trigun as a story, might be too complex for you. Or, you do understand, and are just trolling. You’re free to view things that way, but a villain can very much be written sympathetically. An example being; the Phantom Troupe is a villain group, but the members are made to be sympathetic with how they parallel the protagonists. You’re inherently meant to feel sympathy for Knives & his cause. We see a Plant dying in excruciating pain, we’re meant to see humans’ actions as being abhorrent, we see many Plants side with Knives, we get humans who admit they were terrible & swear to change to live in harmony with the Plants, etc. You aren’t meant to agree with Knives’ actions, but you’re supposed to understand why he’s reached this point. Knives & humanity are both paralleled as taking the wrong actions for the sake of the survival of their species. I still disagree. I can feel sympathy for what Knives may have been through to cause him to feel the way that he does. But sympathy for his cause? No, I am not insane. How can I, a person who doesn't believe in cold blooded murder of an entire race, have sympathy for a cause that involves such a thing? Do you feel sympathy for someone who is racist due to a bad experience they once had with someone from that race? I sure as heck hope not. The great thing about not being insane and being intelligent is being able to understand that such actions are illogical. You can feel sympathy about a particular event in that person's life, but you shouldn't feel sympathy in terms of what they are doing and act like they are well within their right or that they are doing nothing wrong. And no, I disagree with the idea that we're meant to see human's actions as being abhorrent. All it tells me is you didn't understand the story. What you are meant to get out of it is that there are bad people and good people and you can't judge everyone solely based on the bad people. Just trying to survive for one thing isn't an action you can fault someone for. And keep in mind, the people trying to survive have literally no idea how the plants work, or even understand what they are. All they know is they need it to survive. If you are going to kill everyone for simply trying to live, then I am sorry, there is no sympathy there that I have for such a person and their cause. Knives simply isn't a good person, and to be frank... he is extremely hypocritical, his actions are way worse than what humans are capable of. I also, do not think knives is taking the actions that he is for survival's sake. His goal is to kill all the humans, that's not something you do to survive, that is something you decide to do because you are insane. Vash is a good example of how someone should be, though to the extreme. He can often be too much of a push over and forgive too easily at times. But he understands how precious life can be, and he understands that in order for people to survive, they need these plants. And he understands that it's not like they are using these plants for nefarious reasons. He is a reasonable, sensible individual. Knives is not. Plus, just having a basic understanding of how evolution, life and biology works, every single living thing requires the sacrifice of another living being. That's the kind of world we live in and there is very little that can be done about it. Your life today is only possible because you take life from other animals and plants. You cannot survive if you do not have the resources and requirements that your body needs to live. Do you think it would be reasonable, or do you think you would be sympathetic toward a person who wants to kill you because you had a salad the other day for dinner? |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: MarchinBunny said: I still disagree. I can feel sympathy for what Knives may have been through to cause him to feel the way that he does. But sympathy for his cause? No, I am not insane. How can I, a person who doesn't believe in cold blooded murder of an entire race, have sympathy for a cause that involves such a thing? Do you feel sympathy for someone who is racist due to a bad experience they once had with someone from that race? I sure as heck hope not. The great thing about not being insane and being intelligent is being able to understand that such actions are illogical. You can feel sympathy about a particular event in that person's life, but you shouldn't feel sympathy in terms of what they are doing and act like they are well within their right or that they are doing nothing wrong. And no, I disagree with the idea that we're meant to see human's actions as being abhorrent. All it tells me is you didn't understand the story. What you are meant to get out of it is that there are bad people and good people and you can't judge everyone solely based on the bad people. Just trying to survive for one thing isn't an action you can fault someone for. And keep in mind, the people trying to survive have literally no idea how the plants work, or even understand what they are. All they know is they need it to survive. If you are going to kill everyone for simply trying to live, then I am sorry, there is no sympathy there that I have for such a person and their cause. Knives simply isn't a good person, and to be frank... he is extremely hypocritical, his actions are way worse than what humans are capable of. I also, do not think knives is taking the actions that he is for survival's sake. His goal is to kill all the humans, that's not something you do to survive, that is something you decide to do because you are insane. Vash is a good example of how someone should be, though to the extreme. He can often be too much of a push over and forgive too easily at times. But he understands how precious life can be, and he understands that in order for people to survive, they need these plants. And he understands that it's not like they are using these plants for nefarious reasons. He is a reasonable, sensible individual. Knives is not. Plus, just having a basic understanding of how evolution, life and biology works, every single living thing requires the sacrifice of another living being. That's the kind of world we live in and there is very little that can be done about it. Your life today is only possible because you take life from other animals and plants. You cannot survive if you do not have the resources and requirements that your body needs to live. Do you think it would be reasonable, or do you think you would be sympathetic toward a person who wants to kill you because you had a salad the other day for dinner? You’re being extremely dense & arguing with a manga that you’ve never even read, for no other reason than you don’t like it. You’ve already moved the goalpost multiple times & it’s clear there’s absolutely no getting through to you. Congrats on having a series aimed at teenagers & young adults have it’s plot & themes go completely over your head. Here’s hoping you stick with the anime & never check out the manga that you think you’re an expert on without ever reading. What goal post have I moved? It's more along the lines you read a short sentence by me, and assumed I meant something I didn't, and so I gave you a more in depth version of it. Also, all you do is continue to throw ad hom fallacies like "Congrats on having a series aimed at teenagers & young adults have it’s plot & themes go completely over your head." instead of actually making an argument for your case. As for the anime vs the manga, well I got news for you, we are talking about the anime, NOT the manga. Do you not understand what forum board we are on? |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Ssfty said: Knives simply isn't a good person, and to be frank... he is extremely hypocritical, his actions are way worse than what humans are capable of. I also, do not think knives is taking the actions that he is for survival's sake. His goal is to kill all the humans, that's not something you do to survive, that is something you decide to do because you are insane. With that logic humans are insane as well seeibg how they made two world wars with the purpose of killing other humans. Knives' acrions might be extreme but that does not make him insane and in the original anime most of the crew of the spaceship saw Vash and Kişves as monsters and mistreated them which inevitably shaoped Knives' personality and if most of the other Plants were not trapped in glass jars and capable of speech and movement like Vassh and Knives with freedom of choice people would most likely saw them mopnsters instead of convenient enegry sources and things would have been different. Guessing you have never read any history? While wars do kill a lot of people, it's rare such an event is done for the purpose of killing other humans. Wars are usually fought for all sorts of various reasons, often political, religion, or over land and resources. Course, that doesn't make a good thing obviously. And I don't think anyone would ever consider war resulting in the death of thousands of people a good thing. But it's not done specifically to kill people. It's not done with the intention of killing all humans. As for Knives... no, he is for sure insane. He wants to kill ALL humans for the actions of a few. That isn't the kind of decision you make if you were thinking straight. I had abusive parents and family members (one even attempted to kill me once), funny how that didn't convince me that all humans are bad and should die. It's almost like you would need to be pretty damned insane to come to that conclusion. You know what conclusion I came to. The people that did it are the bad people. That's it. Their actions only speak for themselves, and not other people. Plus, the series specifically places Rem into the story to show even among the crew there was someone, a human, who didn't treat them that way. Literally proving the promise of all humans being bad incorrect right from the beginning. It's not like Knives didn't have a single example of a good human being. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: It started with you making a faulty comparison between Plants & irl plants. I pointed out how Plants have always had sentience, you said they didn’t, & that we’re meant to feel sympathy for them, then you moved the goal post to that Knives is a villain & villains aren’t sympathetic. I’ve been clear from my original post that I was referring to the manga, which Stampede is loosely adapting. We don’t have enough info on Plants in the current anime to come to a conclusion one way or the other. No, your original post was you being a dick. Or do I have to remind you that your response to me was "Not as stupid as this take". Keeping in mind, my info is strictly based on the anime, yet you chose to call my take stupid. Like you automatically assume everyone has read the manga or something. And you also assume the anime is going to follow the manga, which it clearly is not. Loosely sure, but that means literally anything can be changed, and any info you have from the manga is technically irrelevant at this point in time. And sure, your second response to me makes it clear you are referring to the manga. But considering I have not read the manga this makes this argument impossible because we are referring to two different sources for our info, aka we are not on the same page. Plus, this is a forum board for the anime, not the manga. And at least as far as I remember from the first anime. They actually never went fully into whether or not plants had sentience. And there is no certainty on whether this anime will even follow that either. But let me just, for arguments sake say all plants are sentient even in this anime, just assume it will follow the same path in regards to that. How is Knives making the situation any better by doing what he is doing? Why should I feel sympathy for him in regards to his actions? Cause I don't think plants sentience really changes that for me anyway. This threads title is "Knives did nothing wrong"... and to be frank, I think that is an absurd viewpoint. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: MarchinBunny said: No, your original post was you being a dick. Or do I have to remind you that your response to me was "Not as stupid as this take". Keeping in mind, my info is strictly based on the anime, yet you chose to call my take stupid. Like you automatically assume everyone has read the manga or something. And you also assume the anime is going to follow the manga, which it clearly is not. Loosely sure, but that means literally anything can be changed, and any info you have from the manga is technically irrelevant at this point in time. And sure, your second response to me makes it clear you are referring to the manga. But considering I have not read the manga this makes this argument impossible because we are referring to two different sources for our info, aka we are not on the same page. Plus, this is a forum board for the anime, not the manga. And at least as far as I remember from the first anime. They actually never went fully into whether or not plants had sentience. And there is no certainty on whether this anime will even follow that either. But let me just, for arguments sake say all plants are sentient even in this anime, just assume it will follow the same path in regards to that. How is Knives making the situation any better by doing what he is doing? Why should I feel sympathy for him in regards to his actions? Cause I don't think plants sentience really changes that for me anyway. This threads title is "Knives did nothing wrong"... and to be frank, I think that is an absurd viewpoint. I was up front about my posts being about the manga from the start & you continued to reply knowing that. You can’t say the anime clearly won’t follow the manga when it’s directly taking characters & plot points from the manga lol. This anime is loosely an adaptation of things from the manga, it’s not an adaptation of the OG anime at all. The manga is the only of the three to give enough info to make a conclusion on Plants. His actions directly lead to humans agreeing to negotiate with Plants & no longer exploit or mistreat them. Humans are depicted as being awful/ignorant for their treatment of Plants, Vash agreeing, but like Rem they have the capacity to change & become better people. I continued to reply with only having knowledge of the anime, and didn't realize you were talking about the manga because I missed that the first time when reading through it. You can keep bringing up the manga, but it's pretty pointless, because even if you say the anime will follow the manga, you don't actually know that either. The first anime really didn't get into this stuff, and there is no guarantee this one will either. Technically all you are doing is spoiling shit because you want to argue with me on a topic that is mostly an opinion on the villain. To be frank, I should report you for spoiling crap, bringing in knowledge from the manga on events that have not happened in the anime yet. I do not sympathize with Knives in the least bit in terms of the actions he has been taking. I do not agree with his actions, and I personally consider it insane to actually think his actions are good. I highly doubt his actions are what leads to agreements and negotiations occurring and I am willing to bet that it's just you taking advantage of the knowledge I don't have and spinning what you know to make it seem like Knives does that. How am I meant to confirm what you say when I have not read the manga? You want me to just take your word for it? Your crap interpretation of what happened? Not going to happen. You have not said a single thing to convince me I am wrong on this. Which to be frank, your initial approach, calling my take stupid, probably didn't help. You might think my take is stupid, but you know what to me you sound like the kind of person that would support someone like Hitler if you found some way to sympathize with him on anything, and then make claims he did nothing wrong and it some how lead to a good result. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: MarchinBunny said: I continued to reply with only having knowledge of the anime, and didn't realize you were talking about the manga because I missed that the first time when reading through it. You can keep bringing up the manga, but it's pretty pointless, because even if you say the anime will follow the manga, you don't actually know that either. The first anime really didn't get into this stuff, and there is no guarantee this one will either. Technically all you are doing is spoiling shit because you want to argue with me on a topic that is mostly an opinion on the villain. To be frank, I should report you for spoiling crap, bringing in knowledge from the manga on events that have not happened in the anime yet. I do not sympathize with Knives in the least bit in terms of the actions he has been taking. I do not agree with his actions, and I personally consider it insane to actually think his actions are good. I highly doubt his actions are what leads to agreements and negotiations occurring and I am willing to bet that it's just you taking advantage of the knowledge I don't have and spinning what you know to make it seem like Knives does that. How am I meant to confirm what you say when I have not read the manga? You want me to just take your word for it? Your crap interpretation of what happened? Not going to happen. You have not said a single thing to convince me I am wrong on this. Which to be frank, your initial approach, calling my take stupid, probably didn't help. You might think my take is stupid, but you know what to me you sound like the kind of person that would support someone like Hitler if you found some way to sympathize with him on anything, and then make claims he did nothing wrong and it some how lead to a good result. That’s your mistake & sure. Go ahead lol. You’re obviously mad. You’re just throwing a temper tantrum because you weren’t paying attention & got yourself into an argument about a series you’re ignorant about. Admitting you’re biased only makes this all the more pointless. Continuing to bring in absolutely asinine irl comparisons that fall flat doesn’t help your case either. No, it has nothing to do with ignorance, you are just full of crap and think your interpretation is the only one that is correct, because even after you gave me the information on the manga, it's not like that changes my view on this. And I brought up the irl comparison because it's pretty apt here. We are talking about a character that is committing genocide. And yet you are acting like genocide is a reasonable approach to take. Basically your view is idiotic at best, and psychopathic at worst. Edit: Also, I am not mad lol. I just think your crazy as shit. Honestly, when I first saw this thread, I laughed cause I thought it was meant to be a joke. Guy literally is committing mass murder and the title is "Knives did nothing wrong", it's hilarious. |
MarchinBunnyJan 30, 2023 1:46 PM
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Jackalinthebox said: MarchinBunny said: No, it has nothing to do with ignorance, you are just full of crap and think your interpretation is the only one that is correct, because even after you gave me the information on the manga, it's not like that changes my view on this. And I brought up the irl comparison because it's pretty apt here. We are talking about a character that is committing genocide. And yet you are acting like genocide is a reasonable approach to take. Basically your view is idiotic at best, and psychopathic at worst. Edit: Also, I am not mad lol. I just think your crazy as shit. Honestly, when I first saw this thread, I laughed cause I thought it was meant to be a joke. Guy literally is committing mass murder and the title is "Knives did nothing wrong", it's hilarious. Because you’re biased as all hell & would rather stonewall with tldrs’s than admit you’re wrong. Sound pretty upset to me. An how are you not biased? It's funny how you can't give a good argument and so instead just resort to saying I am biased as if that means anything lol. Everyone is biased toward their own opinions and views, you included. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
| In case anyone wants to see for themselves. |
Jackalinthebox said: I'm not the one essentially saying because my take got called stupid I'm inclined to not admit I'm wrong. Good argument? You just said you refuse to believe what I told you about the manga, nothing I say will matter as you've already made up your mind. I even posted multiple pages of proof above, but I don't expect you to look at them. Why would I admit being wrong on something I don't think I am wrong on? What part am I even wrong about? |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: MarchinBunny said: Why would I admit being wrong on something I don't think I am wrong on? What part am I even wrong about? Plants not being sentient, humans not being portrayed as abhorrent for their treatment of Plants, negotiations between humans & Plants not happening because of Knives’ actions, etc. As I said, I didn't read the manga. This is information you had that I did not (so technically I wasn't wrong when I was referring to what I knew based on the anime), but sure I will admit to being wrong on this bit when it comes to the manga if you admit to being an idiot for assuming I would have read the manga. If you don't want to admit that, then hey... looks like you are just a pot calling the kettle black. I never said humans were not portrayed as terrible. That's a common trope in story telling. If you think I am lying about this, then quote me saying otherwise. The only thing I did say was that there are bad and good people. And obviously the story lesson for someone like Knives is that just because you have met bad people and have had bad people do bad things to you, doesn't mean all people are bad. Rem is a good example of this. Now as for negotiations happening between plants and humans because of Knives... I think you are wrong. This isn't me not willing to admit I am wrong, this is me thinking you are the one wrong on this. I personally think your interpretation just isn't one to be considered reliable because of your views on Knives. I would argue that you seem so set on being supportive on Knives that you of course would make the claim that he was the one who caused the negotiations to occur. In other words, just as you called me bias, I think this is where you are biased. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: I’m an idiot for assuming you read the manga, when you came to a conclusion on Plants, which only the manga has enough info to do so? Indeed you are. And sure, I came to a conclusion based on the information that I had, there is nothing unusual about that. How am I meant to know that this specific subject of plants, that the manga would have gotten into it more? Heck, I wasn't even aware that the manga was all that different until this discussion. Obviously not, cause I didn't read it. How am I suppose to know where it ends, or how much is covered that the anime didn't cover? Basically, you are trying to get on my case for something I couldn't have possibly known till this conversation occurred. You said humans’ actions aren’t meant to be viewed as abhorrent, that’s patently false. And literally in the same paragraph I said "What you are meant to get out of it is that there are bad people and good people and you can't judge everyone solely based on the bad people." In other words, some humans are meant to be viewed as abhorrent, and some are not. In other words, don't take what I said out of context, you need to read it all.And Knives himself acknowledges humans can change, but he isn’t willing to let his species continue dying & suffering while he waits for that change to happen. As far as I am aware, based on the anime... humans require the plants in order to survive, right? And most humans are not really aware that the plants are sentient, right? They don't know a whole heck of a lot about the plants. In other words, they are not doing it on purpose with the intent to specifically target plants and kill them. Are you telling me it's reasonable to just decide to kill everyone, instead of explaining it to them? This is what makes him insane. His decisions are illogical.And based on information I learned about the manga while arguing with you and reading some other comments on the story, it seems Knives played a big part in the suffering of the plants because he drove humans to a point where they had to overwork the plants, causing way more suffering and death of his own kind. Rather than him just thinking of a path where both can live together. Plus, as I already pointed out, making humans suffer and killing them is pretty hypocritical. That makes him way worse, because he is doing it on purpose, whereas many humans are not (again they are only trying to survive, not trying to purposefully kill plants and crap). And clearly it's possible to live together, since as you pointed out... discussions occur at the end and that is what happens. It isn’t interpretation, it’s literally what happened in the story. What sort of lesson would that be if the person who caused change to occur is the same person who committed mass genocide to do it? How is that even a satisfying end result? The bad person is the one who lead to good change happening through massacring a lot of people? I doubt it.It's probably more like humans were pushed to the absolute brink by Knives and Vash managed to finally get through to him and in essence "save him" and change his view on humans. In other words, Knives wasn't the cause of the negotiations, Vash likely was, and you are just trying to spin it by doing the stupid argument that, well if Knives never did this then it would have never happened. If that is what you are trying to say then ya, it's a shit interpretation by you. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: MarchinBunny said: Indeed you are. And sure, I came to a conclusion based on the information that I had, there is nothing unusual about that. How am I meant to know that this specific subject of plants, that the manga would have gotten into it more? Heck, I wasn't even aware that the manga was all that different until this discussion. Obviously not, cause I didn't read it. How am I suppose to know where it ends, or how much is covered that the anime didn't cover? Basically, you are trying to get on my case for something I couldn't have possibly known till this conversation occurred. And literally in the same paragraph I said "What you are meant to get out of it is that there are bad people and good people and you can't judge everyone solely based on the bad people." In other words, some humans are meant to be viewed as abhorrent, and some are not. In other words, don't take what I said out of context, you need to read it all. As far as I am aware, based on the anime... humans require the plants in order to survive, right? And most humans are not really aware that the plants are sentient, right? They don't know a whole heck of a lot about the plants. In other words, they are not doing it on purpose with the intent to specifically target plants and kill them. Are you telling me it's reasonable to just decide to kill everyone, instead of explaining it to them? This is what makes him insane. His decisions are illogical. And based on information I learned about the manga while arguing with you and reading some other comments on the story, it seems Knives played a big part in the suffering of the plants because he drove humans to a point where they had to overwork the plants, causing way more suffering and death of his own kind. Rather than him just thinking of a path where both can live together. Plus, as I already pointed out, making humans suffer and killing them is pretty hypocritical. That makes him way worse, because he is doing it on purpose, whereas many humans are not (again they are only trying to survive, not trying to purposefully kill plants and crap). And clearly it's possible to live together, since as you pointed out... discussions occur at the end and that is what happens. What sort of lesson would that be if the person who caused change to occur is the same person who committed mass genocide to do it? How is that even a satisfying end result? The bad person is the one who lead to good change happening through massacring a lot of people? I doubt it. It's probably more like humans were pushed to the absolute brink by Knives and Vash managed to finally get through to him and in essence "save him" and change his view on humans. In other words, Knives wasn't the cause of the negotiations, Vash likely was, and you are just trying to spin it by doing the stupid argument that, well if Knives never did this then it would have never happened. If that is what you are trying to say then ya, it's a shit interpretation by you. How am I suppose to know if I had enough info or not? As I already said, it's not like I had knowledge that the manga went into this more. What exactly is the threshold for "enough info"? Who determines that? What is the measure? If Knives didn't push humanity into a corner, the negotiations wouldn't have happened. So just as I thought. It is the whole "If Knives didn't do this, then it never would have happened", it's a pretty silly argument. This idea that it wouldn't have happened without Knives is total nonsense, you don't know that. For all you know, negotiations could have occurred quicker if it were not for Knives (with the added benefit of a lot less people and plants dead). For example, what if humans had more time to understand the plants because they were not constantly fighting for their lives trying to survive and just live another day? And plants had a better opportunity to survive because humans were not working them to death because there were plenty of resources. Seriously, the story could go anywhere if you took Knives out of the equation. In fact, without Knives, they probably wouldn't even be stuck on that planet. And for all you know, as time went on plants could have eventually been treated equally after people started raising issues about how they have been treated. We see it throughout our own human history that eventually things do typically get better in regards to things like that as humans come to a better understanding. And don't get me wrong, I know a lot of these things sometimes have bloodshed involved, so it's not like it's all sunshine and rainbows, but it's certainly a hell of a lot better than the genocide of an entire race lmao. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
Jackalinthebox said: If you don’t have enough info to draw a conclusion one way or the other, then don’t. The status quo had no route for change prior to the half a year Knives spent on his rampage, stop acting like you’ve read the manga. Knives made plenty of mistakes that contributed to the problems to begin with, but that doesn’t negate the former. Never supported or justified Knives’ actions in any of my posts. As I already said, what is the measure for not having enough info? How does a person determine what is and isn't enough? What if there was no manga, should I still not draw a conclusion at all? I am really curious on exactly how you personally determine this and what makes you think you are the arbiter of what is and isn't enough info. Please enlighten me oh great one. And none of that means that things wouldn't have gotten better without Knives. Again, it's not something you can know since obviously the story didn't play out that way. You are not some sort of psychic or fortune teller that can determine how a story would have played out if a particular character did not exist. You are not the person who wrote the story, and any conclusion on the idea that Knives was essential to negotiations occurring, is just you making crap up based on your own biased assumptions. Basically, you want to win this argument and so you are going to spin things in anyway you can to try and be right. |
| I am become bunny, fluffing of worlds. |
| This thread is where everyone is against themselves cause we're all technically exploiting plants every single day in multiple different ways. Tree for Paper, Vegitables for Food, you name it, we kill plants all day every day. That means everyone that supports Knives logic to kill all humans by making things "even" would also be killed if they were in this anime. Basically this thread is Anti-Vegans. Go meat all the way people. Kill the Cows instead, stupid animals eats plants. (don't even eat Rice or Noodles, cause those are also from plants) |
| Nothing Written Here But Us Anime Bunnies *boing boing boing* |
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