| I just wanted to talk a little bit about a particular aspect of the ending that really bothered me. I just binged and finished the series and really enjoyed it, the whole idea of changing your regrets because when a suicide happens, there's almost always something that could have been done to prevent it. And I really like the Orange pushed that preventing the act itself won't do any good, nor will just one or two conversations. You have to actively set up a sort of system, you need to work to help that person, to be open for them when they need it. That all said, my issue is with Kakeru's mother and her sort of redemption at the end. That maybe we should feel bad for her because everything she did was for Kakeru. Bull. Shit. As someone who has a manipulative and mentally unstable mother myself, I can tell you that that's EXACTLY what his mother was. You don't commit suicide like that because you love your son, you do it to punish them. She was punishing him by making herself into a martyr because she's selfish. Her trying to say that she did it all for him is manipulative bullshit that she did to justify to herself and all her selfish behavior. Divorcing his dad because he was abusive and not talking to a preschooler about it first was the only 100% justifiably thing she did, assuming of course that the father really was violent and that wasn't just made up to feed her victim complex, since that's what people like her also do. Her not wanting him to be in sports though, that's because she wanted more control over him. She said it was because he was bullied but really she was just justifying her own selfish behavior. And of course the ultimate selfish act was killing herself to punish Kakeru for calling her out on her manipulative crap. I just really felt this needed a discussion. I'm sure most people came to he same conclusion I did though. I'm not sure if the series wanted us to do that or if it wanted us to feel like she was a good sacrificing mom. Which she wasn't. |
AmberlehDec 1, 2016 4:34 PM
| Maybe this discussion would be better with the title "Kakeru's mother *SPOILERS*"? Anyway, I also got the feeling that his mother was totally manipulative person and I was wondering why he still liked her. It just didn't make any sense, he even clearly expressed that he also hated her for always doing whatever she wanted without asking him first. However, as far as I know, if the parent cries or yells a lot, the children will either start to detest them or blame it on themselves. Maybe Kakeru thought he wasn't "good enough" somehow. And maybe Kakeru thought, after reading the craft email, that she should've just told me when he was old enough to understand. I don't know, maybe someone who has read the manga could tell us. |
 Am I allowed to post without an avatar? |
| Thank you, I was thinking about making that the title originally but was afraid that in itself might be a spoiler, you know? I went ahead and changed it though. And it doesn't surprise me that he still loves her, she's his mother. She's the only constant he's had in his life. My mom and sister are both bipolar and refuse to take medication for it, and while they can be extremely taxing to deal with (which is why I no longer live with either), I still love them. I still want to talk to them. (Moreso now that I don't have to deal with them on a daily basis). They're family. And I think you're right about Kakeru. I understand why Kakeru feels the way he does, but I was a bit surprised the anime tried to show her in a positive light at the end, because EVERYTHING she did is as negative as it comes. But yes, if someone has read the manga please enlighten us. |
| You can't take your own personal experience and say that it's exactly how his mother is. Divorcing his father for abusing him? That's justifiable. Not wanting him to join any clubs? That's also justifiable. He was getting bullied. Yes, telling him not to join any sports clubs is a bit overboard, but since that is his mother I can absolutely see where she's coming from. He was bullied to the point where his mother transferred him, which many parents do. Not wanting him to experience the same thing he went through at his old school is want she wanted. And Kakeru didn't even "call her out". He said she wasn't a child anymore and can go to the hospital on her own. That is not calling someone out. So I don't see how she committed suicide to punish him. In my eyes, she committed suicide because she felt that he didn't need her anymore. She is mentally unstable and so far has been doing everything she felt was necessary to protect him, and then he turns around "abandons" her. I can see why she went over the edge and committed suicide. The text messages wasn't an act of redemption because there was nothing she needed to redeem herself for. The show has never painted his mother as the bad guy. She was painted as being an overbearing mother. I believe the text messages were to simply show her actions from her point of view, just like the episode was from Kakeru's point of view. If you didn't have the issues in your family that you have, would your opinion be different? |
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| That is one of the angriest responses I've ever seen, wow. Just... Calm down for a sec here kiddo. Don't make this personal I insulted a character, not you. I don't even KNOW you. So I would appreciate it if you didn't make jabs at me. I happen to have a good relationship with my mother but she is still mentally unstable, and I was lucky enough to have my dad in the picture to balance it all out. Please don't jump to conclusions or insult me because you dislike my opinion of a show. Might wanna work on your people skills a bit. It's not just about my personal experience with my own family, which you so... crudely pointed out. My fiance happens to be a social worker and sees this kind of behavior a lot. I also watch shows OTHER than anime, and Orange is a show where the people behave more like real people than your typical anime. I'm sorry but she's more than an overbearing parent, she is, as you pointed out, mentally ill. And mentally ill people do really horrible things and justify it to themselves as the 'right' thing. And that's exactly what she did. Killing yourself to free someone of you? I think you might need a tad more worldly experience if you think that's not a punishment. You don't kill yourself to free your son of you. He's a kid. He has no job. His dad is not in the picture what the fuck do you think you're doing woman? I think you may be confusing this with the typical anime that likes to over glorify suicide as 'self sacrifice', which is a trope that is only recently bothering me as I become a bit more worldly. That being said, your post kinda contradicts itself, such as saying she's just an overbearing parent and then also saying she's mentally unstable. That and your personal jabs at me, in addition to looking at other posts you've made, lead me to believe you kinda just enjoy saying "NO YOU'RE WRONG" and getting angry at strangers on the internet. Or maybe you're just offended by my lovely artwork of naked Gray. There's more where that came from if you're interested ♥ |
AmberlehDec 8, 2016 7:21 AM
OneNaughtyBear said: In my eyes, she committed suicide because she felt that he didn't need her anymore. She is mentally unstable and so far has been doing everything she felt was necessary to protect him, and then he turns around "abandons" her. I can see why she went over the edge and committed suicide. The text messages wasn't an act of redemption because there was nothing she needed to redeem herself for. The show has never painted his mother as the bad guy. She was painted as being an overbearing mother. I believe the text messages were to simply show her actions from her point of view, just like the episode was from Kakeru's point of view. Are you implying that the text message wasn't there for Kakeru but for the audience, us, to understand her? Then why would Kakeru react so strongly? Apparently she had never explained those actions to Kakeru, even if she meant only his good. In her text message, she wrote "There are many things I have to apologize to you for." Doesn't that make it an attempt to redeem herself for her actions? Yes, she probably felt like Kakeru had abandoned her, and we could see Kakeru think so, too. Until he read the text message. Why would she write a message like that but not send it to Kakeru? Because she didn't have the strength to send it to him? No, she no longer had anything to fear when she had decided to die - except being interrupted in the midst of it. I think she didn't send it because she wanted Kakeru to read it afterwards, when it already was too late. It was a so called suicide note. Thus, we may take a look at the reasons for leaving a suicide note (from Wikipedia): Wikipedia: Suicide note said: To ease the pain of those known to the victim by attempting to dissipate guilt. [b]To increase the pain of survivors by attempting to create guilt.[b] [b]To set out the reason(s) for suicide.[b] [b]To express thoughts and feelings that the person felt unable to express in life.[b] To give instructions for disposal of the remains. Occasionally, to confess acts of murder or some other offence. I bolded out the ones I think may apply. I still think she wanted either to justify everything she had done or to take revenge for "abandoning" her. It is so obvious that anyone who would read this message would feel guilty for her death that she could not have missed it. Or could she? |
| Am I allowed to post without an avatar? |
OneNaughtyBear said: You can't take your own personal experience and say that it's exactly how his mother is. Divorcing his father for abusing him? That's justifiable. Not wanting him to join any clubs? That's also justifiable. He was getting bullied. Yes, telling him not to join any sports clubs is a bit overboard, but since that is his mother I can absolutely see where she's coming from. He was bullied to the point where his mother transferred him, which many parents do. Not wanting him to experience the same thing he went through at his old school is want she wanted. And Kakeru didn't even "call her out". He said she wasn't a child anymore and can go to the hospital on her own. That is not calling someone out. So I don't see how she committed suicide to punish him. In my eyes, she committed suicide because she felt that he didn't need her anymore. She is mentally unstable and so far has been doing everything she felt was necessary to protect him, and then he turns around "abandons" her. I can see why she went over the edge and committed suicide. The text messages wasn't an act of redemption because there was nothing she needed to redeem herself for. The show has never painted his mother as the bad guy. She was painted as being an overbearing mother. I believe the text messages were to simply show her actions from her point of view, just like the episode was from Kakeru's point of view. If you didn't have the issues in your family that you have, would your opinion be different? I have no issues in my family and I thought the same. She made Kakeru feel guilty for wanting to do something apart from her, she was manipulative and selfish, maybe she did not accept it, but she had serious troubles, and rising a kid with that mentality is just a synonym for problems. Just look at his reaction: depression and suicide. So yeah, I would say she was the bad one in this case. |
| I was actually about to start a thread on the topic when i found this one I know it's a very old post, but it deserves a revival Amberleh said: That all said, my issue is with Kakeru's mother and her sort of redemption at the end. That maybe we should feel bad for her because everything she did was for Kakeru. Bull. Shit. As someone who has a manipulative and mentally unstable mother myself, I can tell you that that's EXACTLY what his mother was. You don't commit suicide like that because you love your son, you do it to punish them. She was punishing him by making herself into a martyr because she's selfish. Her trying to say that she did it all for him is manipulative bullshit that she did to justify to herself and all her selfish behavior. Divorcing his dad because he was abusive and not talking to a preschooler about it first was the only 100% justifiably thing she did, assuming of course that the father really was violent and that wasn't just made up to feed her victim complex, since that's what people like her also do. Her not wanting him to be in sports though, that's because she wanted more control over him. She said it was because he was bullied but really she was just justifying her own selfish behavior. And of course the ultimate selfish act was killing herself to punish Kakeru for calling her out on her manipulative crap. I just really felt this needed a discussion. I'm sure most people came to he same conclusion I did though. I'm not sure if the series wanted us to do that or if it wanted us to feel like she was a good sacrificing mom. Which she wasn't ^^100% this, well said She is the definition of a toxic mother, guit tripping, gaslighting, and isolating Kakeru, all in the name of controll I will add though, i think more than the punishment aspect of it, she did it also out of her own fear of loosing controll over him, seeing that he was capable of standing up to her after years of being under her thumb As for her final message, yes on the surfice it can seem like a redemption arc, with the directing and emotional OST, but let's not forget... this is the message that pushes Kakeru over the edge resulting in his suicide, and considering her behavioural pattern, i don't think she was completely ignorant of this possible outcome, after all, the flashbacks are quite telling, Kakeru was likely depressed way before her suicide, looking at it this way, rather than a redemption arc, it can be seen as her last attempt at controll I understand she was mentally ill, but i also understand mental illness should NEVER be used as an excuse to mistreat others, especially not children |
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