Mahouka Koukou no Yuutousei Episode 2 Discussion

malMaxi said:
Maybe, but that's also all coulda woulda shoulda. I find it much more interesting to approach every work as a standalone and only attempt viewing the work in the context of other works once there is an actual reason to.

Since our discussion gave me a reason to, i just quick-rewatched the original Mahouka. if you skip all the boring parts, it is actually quite decent until the moment Tatsuya just casually solves the magical engineering equivalent of Ferma's theorem (at which point, everything crashes completely in the story and character department). And i have to say that ep.2 couldn't even be faithful to the actual sequence of events as they happened in the original show. I won't bore you with details, but let's just say i am no longer convinced that being overly faithful to s1 of Mahouka is a significant priority for the writers of this show. They only want some of the iconic moments (for their definition of iconic) and might probably do their own thing more than they do the s1 thing.

However, like i said, IMO none of this actually matters. What matters is where the writers will take the next episode and how they are going to execute it. I don't expect anything actually meaningful, but it might at least be entertaining :D

malMaxi said:
Ultimately, not sure how this dialogue observation is germane to our discussion. This is a flaw shared by both ep.1 and ep.2 (and is imo much worse in ep.2)

malMaxi said:
So i take it you are okay with ep.2 being horrible because ep.1 is already horrible in your eyes.

malMaxi said:
Since our discussion gave me a reason to, i just quick-rewatched the original Mahouka. if you skip all the boring parts, it is actually quite decent until the moment Tatsuya just casually solves the magical engineering equivalent of Ferma's theorem (at which point, everything crashes completely in the story and character department). And i have to say that ep.2 couldn't even be faithful to the actual sequence of events as they happened in the original show. I won't bore you with details, but let's just say i am no longer convinced that being overly faithful to s1 of Mahouka is a significant priority for the writers of this show. They only want some of the iconic moments (for their definition of iconic) and might probably do their own thing more than they do the s1 thing.

malMaxi said:
The situation could have been salvaged if Honoka was a better character that actually contributed to the situation. The moment where she told Miyuki about her special analysis power is a moment that is unique to this show and actually gave me a bit of hope. Only to utterly fail to actually deliver on it. Which is why ep.2 is worse than ep.1. However fetishistic, cringy and cliche, ep.1 actually delivered on the points it brought up.

malMaxi said:
I believe we can find middle ground on the notion that every hero needs to have an established baseline of ability, being able to confidently triumph over everything below that and having to struggle with everything above.

I find the segregation-based storytelling boring because it is damn near always presented as this unbeatable force that hero cannot stand against, only for the hero to win through some ass-pull bs. We almost never see stories where a hero triumphs over segregation on the strength of his/her own personal development. I'd take a story where a near-invincible hero has like 1 character flaw that he spends 12 episodes correcting over a botched segregation story any day.

In fact, i have just described the modus operandi of the writer behind One Punch Man and Mob Psycho :D.

malMaxi said:
How exactly is Beauty and the Beast any sort of power fantasy? A romance is a romance, no need to call it anything else.
The "Saint's magic power" thing is definitely completely rooted in how utterly overpowered the main character is. And is therefore certainly a power fantasy. I did drop it after 2 episodes on the account of it being an example of an OP protagonist with no character flaws. If it developed in some later direction - i am not aware.

malMaxi said:
Furthermore, you are, of course, aware that the entire notion of "micro-classes" was created as an ideological weapon against the notion of large social classes? If not, you should familiarize yourself with history of marxism and the specific genesis of Frankfurt school of marxism.

So when you say you are not interested in macrosocial classes and are instead interested in "micro-classes", then congrats, you have been successfully diverted away from the essence of class theory :D. And, while you may want to write that off as pedantics, i at this point no longer understand what you find so interesting about micro-classes. To me it looks like missing the forest for the trees.

malMaxi said:
Well, it certainly isn't collapsing right this moment ). But it is also true that i haven't been able to find any enjoyment in any significantly popular publication for decades now. Instead i'm watching anime and reading light novels, because these at least have some interesting ideas.

Who knows, maybe you'll be able to correct that :D

malMaxi said:
"I wish you knew
the kind of garbage heap
Wild verses grow on,
paying shame no heed"

Anna Akhmatova

Incidentally, this is also my general approach to "who deserves to be a writer" problem.

o7

theGodde said:

Let me tell you what the point could have been: Honoka is introduced as someone who can judge people's actual power, having accurately picked up not just on Miyuki's strength, but also on Tatsuya's. This ability of hers is actually what cements her as a friend in Miyuki's eyes, making her a story-relevant character going forward.

All they needed to do beyond that is to introduce to us the power set of the entire new supporting cast through Honoka's eyes. We should have gotten a bit of a characterization of the red-hair as someone who is adept at martial arts.

I am not sure how exactly you narrow down the concept of power fantasy to specifically "male" power fantasy.

malMaxi said:

Well, i wrote a whole reply and hit "cancel" instead of "submit" :(
Apparently CTRL-Z can't fix that /crai.

malMaxi said:
What you describe as "mini-classes" is better viewed as struggles within the hierarchy. Especially if you exist in space crawling with marxists :D
Incidentally, a big part of appeal of Mahouka is indeed about struggles within hierarchy (which is why a big part of Tatsuya-Miyuki relationship is her pushing him up the hierarchy).

malMaxi said:
Like i said, my experience with modern literature is that "broken clock" seem correct more often than the ones who are supposed to be good. As a result, my opinion on who is broken and who is not has shifted quite some time ago.

theGodde said:
I dunno. There's a fair few visionaries in our generation. However they have mostly departed the world of novels. Like Steven King said, you can only write as well as the books you yourself have read. So the fact that even English speakers are reading Light Novels and watching movies rather than larger, more complex books nowadays means that that is all they are getting exposed to, and we are slowly spiralling down and losing a lot of the artistry of the English language within writing.

However the film and anime industry doesn't suffer from this problem, because there is a wealth of people fascinated in visual media, and an impressive backlog of movies and anime to study. The issue with our modern generation is that the Hollywood effect has caught up with the Japanese media industry. Now pre-existing franchises are given priority. Anime isn't able to take risks anymore because the industry has seen a focus more onto profit margins over quality storytelling.
But this will change due to the global interest in anime. More and more smaller studios are forming out of the woodworks of the world and starting to create their own anime. In Australia we had an interesting anime-style series called Prisoner Zero. It's...not bad, but definitely not quite at Japan's level yet. However it shows that even in the weak, bland industry of Australian filmmaking people who have grown up with anime are starting to make their own. I think we'll soon see a global renaissance of anime style shows throughout the world.

I started reading Unordinary. It's pretty good. I agree it handles classism really well. However I really don't like the direction they took the characters in. I like John on a conceptual level but he really isn't to my taste. Goes from your typical low level weakling with a mysterious past to a bratty punching bag, to a piece of shit simp (I'm at chapter 98 btw). The overarching plot is also pretty slow which gives this feeling that the entire story is just bogged down in John's relationship drama. Hopefully this is all laying the groundwork for some incredibly character development, but I gotta say it's getting pretty painful to read. Please tell me there's a light at the end of this tunnel lmao

Datenshi_Kyrus said:
That scenario you thought up wouldn't really work, as it's already established that Mizuki has some grasp on what their abilities are, so it would just make two of the same character.

The reason we don't see anything about Erika is because this spin off seems to be focused on the Course 1 students, as implied by the "Yuutousei" in the title. Erika is a course 2 student and is already far more established in the original work than any of the course 1 students are. Honestly I'm glad this series exists even if only for that because the characters of Honoka and Shizuku felt very undeveloped in Rettousei not to mention the other course 1 supporting characters.

malMaxi said:
There is undeniably a decline in complexity going on right now in literature. My current opinion is that said complexity has ultimately lead us into a corner, so we are now backtracking to find a different way.

And, well, backtracking means you have to actually go back, cutting down all the artistic frills that ultimately didn't bear fruit.

The renaissance kinda depends on how successful will the various countries be at finding their own voices within animation medium.

China definitely founds its voice. So did Korea. However, others seem to struggle. For example, russian authors have been trying anime style since forever, but nothing seems to stand out or even catch on. The output is either not unique enough or way too complex for its own good (I don't know how much Russian influence there is actually in Troika studios, but their Re-Creators is definitely a good example of the latter).

There has been some talk about revitalizing our Soyuzmultfilm studio (which, I must add, was in its heyday almost more anime than anime itself). Not sure if that will go anywhere, though. What's Souyzmultfilm without a Souyz (Union)?

Ultimately, I don't really see a specifically anime renaissance. This style of animation continues to remain a very oriental thing, when all is said and done (Thought the idea of Australia embracing oriental visual culture is certainly something I never thought about :D). However, the growing influence of anime does require an answer, and this answer can definitely cause a renaissance of animation in the western world.

malMaxi said:
I think the author wrapped things up somewhat competently for now (the series is currently on break after a "mid-season finale"). I definitely am satisfied with where and how John specifically ended up.

theGodde said:
I've heard of some strange Russian anime from the 50s, and seen one specifically which was about a fisherman and a talking fish that went from kinda strange to full on lucid acid trip real quick. But Russia is definitely a pretty fascinating topic I know almost nothing about.

A bit more info into the Aussie tv industry - we've got basically no identity. The most famous Australian film that immediately comes to mind is probably Gallipoli. The only thing we really do at the moment is crank out shitty soap opera TV for Americans and British people to watch. The only reason Prisoner Zero go aired was because Star Wars the Clone Wars ended and the ABC kids network needed a replacement series of a similar vein.

as for complexity, I really gotta beg to differ. Where do you consider the height of complexity? I don't think anyone's beat out War and Peace as yet. Perhaps you consider the WW2 era with such works as 1984 and the evolution of the film industry with Citizen Kane? Or perhaps the 70s which featured a mix of action blockbuster and deep, mature thematic storytelling, the rise of Ghibli, and the beginning of anime's global recognition? Or perhaps the 90s with more mature adult anime such as Akira, where action movies reached the peak balance of visual effects and real world stunts that to this day will never be surpassed? I would agree that there has been a drop in quality over the past 10 years in the world of anime, however I feel like it's too soon to consider it anything substantial.
As for Hollywood, it has most certainly been in decline since the 90s. The amount of crap we see now is a joke of its former self.

In the end, the amount of stories we can tell has always been finite. It stands to reason that eventually we will reach a point where every basic plot or story structure has been done before. I personally reckon we're pretty much there already, and have been for several decades at least.

malMaxi said:
I really can't stand John, or the teen angst of the webtoon in general. The difference between unORDINARY and other manga/anime I've read set in high school that I like is that it doesn't filter out all the toxicity and just general shittiness of high school. In fact it amps it up to max. I feel like the balance of toxicity/wholesomeness is just too skewed for me to enjoy reading it. It's just not entertaining to read for me where I'm at. I managed to grind through 90 chapters in one day. Then in the next few days I've gone through around 15. Is this shitty tone and character situation going to stay this way for another 100 chapters or will the current Angsty John arc wrap up soon? None of the characters appeal to me at the moment and I'm thinking of dropping it if it doesn't change up in the next 30 chapters or so.
However, the plot isn't bad. And a lot of the themes and ideas it looks at are pretty good. Not particularly groundbreaking though.

o7

malMaxi said:

The funniest part is that this was supposed to be a fairy tale cartoon for kids ). I watched it when i was like 8 and felt like it made total sense :D

Here is the one i find to be the most emblematic of both the methods and goals of that particular period of our multiplication: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wIjfbHQRp4
It also has the lucky upside of featuring no intelligible dialogue whatsoever :D

malMaxi said:

Cultural identity is hard :(. It isn't even about the amount of creative output (though obviously the bare minimum amount of quantity is required), it is about some unique style that only you have.

malMaxi said:
I don't think the amount of stories we can tell is limited. What is limited is the amount of stories any given culture can make sense of at any given moment. It is generally not a good idea to confuse one's narrow field of vision for the actual possibilities of the world :D

theGodde said:
lmao that was a strange experience to say the least.
I thought that song was made for the Godfather, and looking it up I am like 99.9% sure it is. So how did they get the rights to use it in their lucid animation trip?
The animation itself was pretty cool. I hated the design for the guy, but that's a personal thing. Something that really annoyed me was that different things had different framerates for no apparent reason. Some very strange animation decisions there.

the thing is, we have the basis for an original art style. The indigenous Australians had a very unique (but simplistic) artstyle and colour palette that could be made use of. There's also the multiple fascinating historical eras of Australian history (indigenous Australia, first settlement, the great expansions - where adventurers explored Australia, the gold rush, the rise of Bushrangers, WW1, WW2, suffragettes, giving indigenous people the vote, Vietnam War, and modernisation). The thing is that the Australian film industry has no real drive to want to find its identity. All our actors head over to America to make their fortune in Hollywood. Those who are left are a bunch of indie filmmakers mostly fluffing about telling pretentious stories no one wants to watch. We're not really a patriotic or nationalistic country on the whole, and I suppose that is part of the reason.

what I mean by that is in terms of basic story structure. There are only 7 basic plots: Overcoming the monster, Rags to riches, The quest, Voyage and return, Comedy, Tragedy, Rebirth. But on top of that if you add another level of detail there are still a finite amount (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thirty-Six_Dramatic_Situations). But I would argue a level up from that. Every general story idea has been tried in every type of story with every type of story structure. The only difference now is the characters, the complexity, and the aesthetics (which admittedly is quite a lot).

anyhow, thanks for the information on Russian film, quite interesting. I think for now I'll hold off further comments until the next episode when we'll have more to talk about lmao.