Can someone explain me why is the final so hated?

Exactly. Slave to freedom is an oxymoron this shit doesn't work like that 💀

Not what I said. That in of itself has nothing to do with helping the people of Paradis and Eren's friends. It as a plot point was explored to highlight the encompassing and deterministic nature of the founder's power.

@ItsaMeAMario You bring good questions. Firstly, I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated that whoever Eren needed to touch for the Founder's power to activate had to be a titan of royal blood and that whatever form they were in was irrelevant. This is why the Smiling Titan and Zeke activate the powers but not Historia. She, as someone of just royal blood and no titan, could only bring about memories just like her dad Rod Reiss in S3 P1.

Moreover, I want to know how being pre-determined is a bad quality, especially for a story like AOT where being "set in stone" is constantly emphasized. I also want to know which plot holes it waves away, if any. Because whenever I debate with someone who dislikes the ending due to apparent unanswered plotlines, they can't really come up with a coherent answer.

You ask if Erwin's death had a payoff. I ask, did anything if that's the case? The counter-argument that comes in the face of determinism from the watcher/reader is that nothing was worth anything. Isn't that exactly what Zeke said in chapter 137 with his conversation with Armin?

Another major moral from this story is to value the insignificant moments of life, such as playing catch-ball or running up the hill to that tree. Do you understand?

Make your fucking story make sense first of all. Don't add in pseudo intellectual shit tyring to make your story complex. First it has to make sense and resolve plot points THEN you can worry about messages and whatnot. Last time I'm answering you get out of my face and let isayama spitroast you some more and keep speculating what he wanted to do when the fact he failed miserably is on the nose 💀

The alliance is given the thickest plot armor.

Speaking of plot, plenty of set ups that were never addressed. Retcons all over the final moments.

How did the worm disappear? Did they all just forget it existed?

How convenient that Mikasa just knew Eren was in the mouth.

Season 1 and 3 characters are rolling in their graves over the technology to somehow pack unlimited gas into their canisters, and thunder spears appearing out of thin air.

The shifters families just all managed to conveniently survive the biggest genocide in history and be all right there at the fort right in front of them.

Eren was never a intelligently crafted villain, which could still make you blur the lines and make you feel for him. He was always just a pathetic cartoonishly evil character.

It's never explained why Ymir reacted so strongly to Eren and cried "you are no god, no slave, just a person" which is the first and last time she shows emotion, and the first time we as the audience see her eyes. It obviously suggested that Eren "opened" her eyes". Well turns out she was waiting for Mikasa all along, cause love or whatever... Even though you can't prove Eren ever loved her before because Isayama did write characters in love through inner monologue, blushes, other characters pointing it out... which he did never do for Eren loving Mikasa and it just feels shoehorned.


How come Conny and Jean outright see Sashas ghost, even though scouts ghosts were at times visually presented, it was never outright physical ghosts that people could see.

Armin never got anyone out of any situation through talking, in every other occasion he failed, even if he got lucky and some outside entity let him escape, he never actually convinced anyone.
And for some reason, he convinced the Marley commander to not kill the Eldians, even though it's the exact same situation as in season 1, no soldier is even a little skeptical.

Falco just manages to be the first shifter to outright give his Titan one of the best abilities ever.

Pieck just triple transforms back to back even though in Declaration of War, she questions how much stamina does Eren have to do it 3 times in a way more spread out time frame.
And Magaths assistant outright says Piece is the Titan with the least amount of Stamina...

It's never explained him Erens head just survived being yeeted out of the founder and surviving, to outright transforming into a colossal which he never had.

Levi kills Zeke to stop the rumbling, but it is stated that Eren only needs Zeke because Ymir only gets ordered around by royal blood, but in paths he was supposed to have overridden that and it's never explained why that just works...


I could keep going, but to sum it sum, AoT was a very intricately detailed piece of art where the author always took the time to explain how the universe works and the rules. In the last moments all of that is thrown out of the window to make a final spectacle, superhero kind of movie, where nothing is narratively cohesive, and things just happen for shock value, without any real stakes...

just your typical superhero movie. that's what the final of aot feels like.

@Zprotu They are all connected to the founding titan, Eren was the one that assumed they needed to be a titan which is why he initially refused to disclose it. I don't think that's the case, him receiving his powers and memories from touching royal blood, both Rod Reiss and Historia Reiss implies it's just a person with royal blood and being a titan has nothing to do with it.

If something is pre-determined you can write anything and state that it's "pre-determined" to avoid any logical arguments. It feels like a cop out to use determinism. Controlling Bertolt is a glaring plot hole and not using the founding titan powers with Historia and Zeke are also pretty clear issues. His refusal to share information is also a plot hole, but that is waved away with the determinism line.

(By pay off to Erwin's death I mean was his sacrifice worth saving Armin) Up to the point of Erwin's death I was on the fence because I thought that the tactics shown by both Erwin and Armin were comparable. After Erwin's death Armin contributes nothing but bland lines and crying. What did he do tactically? Did he contribute anything to Paradis Island?

Yeah I get the appeal of those scenes, but they should be the cherry on the top of a well crafted story, as they were in the earlier seasons. You can't only rely on those scenes. I'm not saying the show is terrible but it missed the mark for me.

I wasn’t really talking about you but I’ll address your point. The problem with your assessment is the series has never been about delving into the actual science fiction of the Titan lore and the intricacies of the Titan power. We quite literally don’t even know what creates the Titan power itself besides the worm. It’s literally one of the biggest plot holes of the entire series, laughably so. Isayama obviously wanted people to digest the symbolic aspect of the story rather than be fascinated by the lore. If you want to compare this to something like Muv Luv, that series is obviously more concerned with gore and action and dread than it is presenting the audience with deep, philosophic concepts that question their morality and values. AOT has literally always been structured that way, since episode one. The first episode is literally presents how freedom is the desire of all humans beings, and that a lack of freedom leads to suffering…and no, Eren is not a slave to freedom. He is one of the few characters in the show that has complete freedom, actually.

So in Eren’s position you would let all your people die, and be discriminated against? Or would you know exactly how to achieve all his goals without anyone dying?

You act like this isn’t a difficult as fuck thing to do. Eren saved almost all his friends, almost all his people, killed every Titan, and achieved true freedom. He literally achieved every single big goal he had, yet you think he shouldn’t have been confused about how to even do that?

He literally said how he was just an average hot headed kid who was given the powers of a god. He had the memories of hundreds of other Titan shifters, and possible future versions of himself. It’s pretty reasonable that he’d be confused about what he actually wants. Hence “I am an idiot”.

Because some of them watched a music video one time and tricked themselves into believing that the story would totally end like that music video. And also their ship didn’t happen. And also some drawing of a man holding a baby got shown before the manga ended, which means that surely it must be the final panel in the story.

And also they wanted Eren to kill his friends and be big sad about it forever, even though the whole point of everything was for his friends. And Paradise would totally be at peace forever with no possible way of a future conflict happening.

I don’t think you’re understanding me at all, or even understanding why people are upset. It’s not about getting down to the molecular level and seeing why titans are even possible. The issue is that Isayama not only destroyed a lot of the key elements that made the series brilliant (characters, themes, hope) but he ALSO left way too many plot holes for the story to feel satisfyingly complete. Isayama burnt a lot of people on both ends of the spectrum (emotionally and logically).

@ItsaMeAMario No, if that was the case, Eren wouldn't have ever rejected the 50-year plan. He needed a titan or titan-shifter with royal blood to activate the Founding Titan.

I agree with your premise that a writer could use determinism to cop out of a plot hole, but I disagree with there ever being a plot hole. Controlling the Smiling Titan in front of Bertolt was something that had *always* happened. If Bertolt got eaten -> no story according to Eren. When Eren got the Founder's powers, Bertolt not being eaten was always the case, and he had to make sure it remained that way. This plot point exists to highlight the deterministic nature of the world of AOT, not the opposite in that it is a copout due to determinism.

You ask what Armin contributed. Armin was one of the main reasons why Paradis lived in peace for centuries or even millennia after the rumbling.

He’s always been capable of killing innocent children?

Mikasa killing Eren but continuing to wear his scarf and visit his grave (mind you, after he’s slaughtered millions of innocent people that had nothing to do with the war) is character growth to you?

The point about Armin is irrelevant. As soon as the world was able to, they annihilated Paradis without delay. He accomplished nothing.

The story doesn’t try to point fascist principles in a positive light? Is that why so many people agree with Eren logically that he should’ve killed his friends and did a 100 rumbling but also assert it is morally indefensible? Isayama literally wrote the story with genocide as the solution, and you honestly think it’s not inherently glorifying fascism? The story has a happy ending because of Eren’s mass genocide, you know that right? Lol. (Also, Eren literally spreads his arms out and declares he is free as the rumbling is occurring.)

The bird is symbolic of Eren, and birds represent freedom. There’s no other way to interpret the bird other than it representing Eren as free. (As mentioned above, Eren as a small boy had his arms outstretched like a bird to symbolize freedom).

Literally anything could have happened. Eren had every ability you could think of. Isayama wrote him into a corner specifically so there would be a genocide ending that is followed by peace; killing a bunch of people solved a lot of your problems, but killing everyone would have been a total solution. You have to realize we aren’t reciting history. Isayama designed this story to conclude with Eren having no ability to change the future…but logically, he should have been able to.

There’s literally no romance between the two. Everyone agrees on this, but just accept that there is something because of the affection they have for each other. However, it’s long been established that they see each other as family. Eren never gives Mikasa a look of lust or interest ONCE throughout the entire series. He’s even been violent with her a few times. The sour icing on the cake is that Eren literally told her he hated her and physically abused her closest friend Armin. Real character growth would have been Mikasa deciding then and there that Eren is an enemy, and that he must be stopped. Maybe not killed, but at least neutralized as a threat. This doesn’t happen, though. She latched on to the memory of the man she’s never even shared a kiss with…

So in Eren’s position you would let all your people die, and be discriminated against? Or would you know exactly how to achieve all his goals without anyone dying?

You act like this isn’t a difficult as fuck thing to do. Eren saved almost all his friends, almost all his people, killed every Titan, and achieved true freedom. He literally achieved every single big goal he had, yet you think he shouldn’t have been confused about how to even do that?

He literally said how he was just an average hot headed kid who was given the powers of a god. He had the memories of hundreds of other Titan shifters, and possible future versions of himself. It’s pretty reasonable that he’d be confused about what he actually wants. Hence “I am an idiot”.

@DutchyDerpBox You summed it up. How unfortunate is it that they were deluded by their echo chambers? Confirmation bias is a real nasty phenomenon.

@Zprotu If that is the case why not do the plan in Marley when he met Zeke? I think you're wrong but there isn't any actual information on whether it is just royal blood or royal blood + titan juice. It makes more sense that it is just the blood, why would the ability to transform into a titan be important? And why would they show Rod Reiss and Historia Reiss activating his attack titan ability and memories? Makes more sense if it's just blood to me.

So from my impression Eren was saying that he forced the titan to walk past Bertolt, doesn't that imply that he has powers to control titans through time? I might be misunderstanding the power or explanation but that is a huge issue imo. I can appreciate the idea of complete determinism I just don't personally like it.

Let me give you my take on how you could have all this still occur with the ending he wanted but make Armin's arc more reasonable. Imagine instead of wasting the 4 years Armin spearheaded an effort to form alliances and begin exporting natural resources around the world. Then Eren goes and destroys the progress towards peace that Armin has been making, that way the Erwin arc is paid off and the Eren decision is made all the more powerful because he actively destroyed a reasonable path to peace.

You are too dense to understand simplicity. Just watch this video and if you still don’t get it, I don’t know just go to university and take some lessons on literature and symbolism.

https://youtu.be/UVrCTFSdB9k?si=O38fXv71uDknYApj

@ItsaMeAMario The fact is that Eren needed a titan/titan-shifter of royal blood to activate the founder's powers. If that wasn't the case, the Jaegrists wouldn't have planned for Historia to eat Zeke.

Eren made sure that what happened did end up happening. He did not initiate the titan walking past Bertolt, he made sure it remained that way. Everything that happened, could've been different but wasn't because that's what Eren wanted. "Even if this is what I wanted" (chapter 130, 131). He gave freedom of choice to everyone.

Bro the Azamabito plot point is what you're describing you know?? They tried to ally with other nations but it was proven through the conference they attended that other nations wanted nothing to do with Island Devils. This is when Eren went ahead and destroyed any remaining chances of progress toward peace (Declaration of War).

@Zprotu No you see, Eren could have actually done it with Historia but it was pre-determined that he do it with Zeke 4 years later. Sorry Determinism is a bitch.

They accomplished exactly zero with the Azamabito plot point. Literally useless.

@ItsaMeAMario

It's literally explicit that you'd need a titan/titan-shifter of royal blood for Eren to use the founder's powers. That's how it has always been understood and that's why the story is structured the way it is. You'll have to bring up proof if you claim otherwise.

And thanks for proving my point and answering your own question regarding Armin/Azamabito.



Apologies, I was referring to the AOE bros.



Then that's the case for everything in anime. Which is fallacious. This story doesn't glorify genocide, that's the opposite of what it does. You know what does though? A 100% rumbling that kills everyone and somehow brings peace and magically removes all conflict.

@Zprotu I haven't read it but have just rewatched the show. In season 3, Eren assumes you need to be a titan and that's the extent of it. But we've already seen that Rod Reiss and Historia trigger his powers through touch.

The way it was written the Azamabito section was never perceived as a reasonable solution by the audience. I'm saying that if they had Armin crafting strong relations with say enemies of Marley giving themselves a power block against Marley then that would pay off Erwin and additionally give more value to the Eren destruction arc.

@ItsaMeAMario Doesn't Zeke and Ksavar confirm what I said though? Rod Reiss and Historia trigger memories, not powers.

And I'm telling you that relations with other nations were impossible because of what was said in the conference and because it was stated that the other nations hate Eldians even more than the people of Marley. Eren understood this, which is why he left the conference and the scouts too, and did what he did during the raid of Liberio.

@Zprotu I don't remember Zeke saying anything about it. The only thing I remember touching on it was Eren's assumption after controlling the titans.

Marley said that all of their enemies attacked them after the failed mission on Paradis island. Why would those countries that were attacking and losing to Marley not accept diplomatic relations with Paradis Island? Logically it makes no sense.

Don't let the vocal minority influence your expectations or your opinions.

And make sure to enjoy whatever you do.

Liking or disliking is a Personal choice, so that's the basic thing everyone should accept

However in the case of AOT, a lot of people (mostly immature teens) just hate it to pretend that their favourite anime is better and whatever! This "I started hating a series just because I wasn't satisfied by the ending" is probably the lamest excuse ever, but well that's basically an irrelevant minority made up of teens who would realise how dumb they were hating on an iconic show like this which is representing the anime media on a global level with a lot of pride!

Also I would like this to add for the fanbase, constructive criticism should always be respected but the blind hate should be ignored or just cancelled

If ignorance is a bliss then you must be the happiest person in the world.